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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch (Read 47466 times)
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #40 - 05/22/05 at 12:12:05
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I'm also having trouble using the fonts etc - the word that didn't appear in bold type was 'only'....and was quoted directly from MNb's post.
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #39 - 05/22/05 at 12:09:54
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Well, I will look at those ...Nc6 lines in time, but for now I am confused by MNb's comment that after 8.b3 Qh5 9.Re1 Ne4 is good.

I like the ...Ne4 move a lot in my early experiences with this variation, but NCO gives 9...Qg6 as it's main move rather than 9...Ne4 (not that it really evaluates them differently) - MNb, what is strategically (or otherwise) amiss with 9...Qg6, please?  Or is it simply a case of personal preference?
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #38 - 05/22/05 at 07:57:18
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Must say that the ...Nc6 lines MNb mention, look like fun! Cheesy 

Strange that Hayward seems to be the only one playing ...Nd8!? 

Williams think little of ...Nc6 but doesn't mention ...Nd8.

Besides even 7...Qe8 8.Qc2 Nc6 9.d5 Nb4 10.Qb3 (+= Williams) doesn't seem so terrible for black (W gives Nc6 a ?), but after Na6-c5 it's reminiscent of the 7...c6 line in the Leningrad which has a very solid reputation, and here black can 'fianchetto' Be7 on f6 without weakening his k-side structure, so why should white's ability to play d5xe6 be an automatic white advantage?! 

However, after 8.Qc2 Qh5 may indeed be best as Williams and Mnb seem to agree... - At least here, Hayward's patent variation 8...Nc6 9.d5 Nd8?! doesn't seem to work with the queen on c2, i.e. 10.Nb5 Nxd5 11.cxd5 Qxb5 12.Qxc7 (Hayward's line ends here) but 12...Bf6 13.Bg5! Qxb2 14.e3 leaves black with a difficult position as there's no way to blunt Bg2's diagonal with c7-c6 anymore.

Anyway, ...Nc6 seems a lively and underestimated option and a good alternative to the Iljin proper - especially now that Top has given the main line his seal of approval... Grin
« Last Edit: 05/22/05 at 09:48:07 by TalJechin »  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #37 - 05/22/05 at 03:47:01
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Thanks Foghorn, you're right - when I looked at the move lists for the games I overlooked the transpositional lines (as in Gallagher-Williams) and wasn't thinking about ...Ne4 out of the context of 7Nc3, although of course it seems to be a key move in many lines.  I'd better get some experience in this variation.  It was TalJechin who pointed out to me that the moves ...Ne5 and ...a5 often end up transposing, something I'd missed -  so it's time for me to concentrate on playing some more games/learning some lines!
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #36 - 05/21/05 at 17:55:12
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I checked the PGN file for the book at the Everyman website and the games with ...Ne4 are there.  The PGN file is a very nice feature, btw.
  

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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #35 - 05/21/05 at 17:40:38
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Actually, McDonald has a section entitled "Black Plays a Quick ...Ne4 Versus Everything."  In that section he gives two games, Tregubov-Bauer, 2004, with 7...Ne4, and Gallagher-Williams, 2001, with 7...a5 and 8...Ne4.  In the next section, "White Plays an Early b2-b4", he gives Dumitrache-Williams, 2003, also with 7...Ne4.
  

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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #34 - 05/21/05 at 14:36:38
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Interesting, Top. 

For those interested, I just found that the Everyman website now allows downloads of the .pgns from recent books - one such book is the Neil McDonald one we are discussing in this thread.  All the games and game fragments can be dowmloaded for free, but there are no annotations.  Incidentally, I looked through the games and there were no games there with 7...Ne4 in the Classical, so I suppose he must mention in it the notes to another game instead of giving it a game of its own??

  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #33 - 05/21/05 at 13:49:04
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I don't play the Dutch anymore, but considering how incredibly successful Simon Williams has been with it in OTB play, including a nice recent win over a 2600+ GM, I would be inclined to pay close attention to anything he writes on the subject. Grin

Simon has gone from 2300+ to almost 2500 in a matter of 4 years primarily because of his Clasical Dutch. I think he has all the GM norms now, but just needs to hit the 2500 mark to be ratified the title.

As a former Leningrad and Stonewall Dutch player, I can confidently say that were I to take up the Dutch again, it would have to be the Classical variation.

The Classical definetly gets my seal of approval.

Top  Grin
« Last Edit: 05/21/05 at 15:32:32 by TopNotch »  

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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #32 - 05/21/05 at 11:30:57
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Yes, it would seem that I ought now to look at 7...Qe8 - I remember Randy Bauer suggesting that perhaps it might be a little too committal (or was he quoting Simon Williams - not sure) and 7...Ne4 felt better to me but I have plenty to play with here in order to find a line I like.  I read with interest Keith Hayward's review (on Chessville) of Williams book, too, and the 8...Nc6 move you pointed out, MNb, which it seems is one of Hayward's favourites.  Couldn't access his website though, will try again later.  TalJechin - thanks for the info re. the books - I don't know that I'll ever get to grips with the Leningrad but I think you've persuaded me to at least be open-minded.  And so McDonald's book looks like a good place for me to start.  Whatever happens, I should be able to learn something from it and find a new defence to 1d4.  I like the idea of the 1...e6 move order with the Classical quite a bit, something the Leningrad doesn't cater for - I played some Blitz earlier where I tried 1...f5 and ended up (after 2g3) forgetting where I was going and getting some sort of a Stonewall eventually, which turned out well as it was one of the ones where my attack was strong enough to win through, so I was interested to hear that you say McDonald tells readers to look out for transpositions to good versions of the Stonewall.  I'll play some more Classical for now, and order McD's book, take it from there. Many thanks both.
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #31 - 05/21/05 at 10:54:45
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While waiting for MNb, I could offer my 2 cents: Ooops, too late! Lips Sealed

The main line of 7...a5 and 7...Ne4 usually transposes early on, the first offers some more dynamic options and the latter reduces white's options a bit. All three books seem to like ...Ne4! btw. 

Personally, I think the Leningrad is much more logical and easy to play, while my experiments with the Iljin have been both wine and water. In blitz I think I have a plus score but usually mostly because I'm good at taking my tactical chances in messy and bad positions...

Among other things McDonald emphasis that in the classical black should always be open to a transposition to an improved Stonewall. 
While Williams' main rule is that black is OK if he can get in e7-e5. 
Pinski concentrates imo on commenting whole games which makes it hard to get an overview...

So my advice would be to get the McDonald book first, as that would still leave you open to the Leningrad and Stonewall formations, if his commentaries should light a candle for y'a! Cheesy

Anyway, as you've probably noticed, I'm biased in favour of the Leningrad as I've been playing it for decades by now. Still, after a couple of years trying to master the Iljin I still feel a bit uncomfortable around moves 7-12, as I'm constantly wanting to play Nb8-c6/d7/a6 even though I know Qe8 or Bf6 or a5 etc *should* be played... But if this syndrome doesn't seem familiar, then go straight to Williams' book. Cheesy
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #30 - 05/21/05 at 10:38:55
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7...Ne4: No. But isn't 7...Qe8 an idea?
8.b3 Nc6 (a5 is the main line, but you don't like it) cannot be found in any book on the Dutch; visit the website of Keith Hayward for sample games.
The same for 8.Re1 Nc6.
8.Qc2 Qh5 is probably good for Black.

An important issue is, that Hayward has proven, that the critical d4-d5 (after Black's Nc6) is not so dangerous as previously assumed.
My main objection against 7...Ne4 is, that Black aims to exchange pieces, which he might need in his middle game attack against the White king. Moreover in some lines Black remains behind in development. But feel free to disagree.
My opinion is not a matter of principle, as after 7...Qe8 8.b3 a5 9.Re1 only Ne4! is good.
  

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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #29 - 05/21/05 at 10:13:27
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OK, after a day of playing Dutch games online and looking at a board and a copy of NCO I've decided its time to get more involved and get a good book. So, I already own Aagaard's Stonewall book and haven't really felt like that's the right defence for me, as mentioned earlier, which means I have the Leningrad or the Classical to look at.  I've played around with the Leningrad a few times and can't understand it at all, at least I don't see the attraction for Black.  It doesn't seem to be right for me, anyway. So the Classical - I've played some games today with the IJ system and in particular 7...Ne4, which I understand is Williams' recommendation (?) in his book.  I'm afraid I don't really like the look of the 7...a5 line (possibly due to a lack of understanding and experience) too much, and haven't tried 7...Qe8 yet.  So I have a question about coverage for those who have any of the recent books on this - is 7...Ne4 covered in McDonald's book, or Pinski's, or is Williams the only one who likes it?  I certainly like this move, but wonder whether it is still viewed as a good option.  Also, thanks to TalJechin for pointing out the value of Neil McDonald's coverage of the Classical as a good basic introduction, but is it worth buying the book for the Classical coverage alone?  I will almost certainly use the 1d4 e6 move order so early sidelines won't concern me - I wonder if Williams and McDonald both provide lots of basic introductory text, and if they overlap?  Well, I may order both, or all three (Pinski too), but would like to see what people think of 7...Ne4 and the coverage it receives.  MNb - do you play this move? Any thoughts?

Many thanks.
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #28 - 05/20/05 at 06:49:14
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Thanks for the opinions. 

I'm going to have a good look at the Dutch again this weekend and will probably opt for McD to get me started if I take the plunge.  I'm struggling against 1d4 with everything else these days, so it's time to experiment.
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #27 - 05/20/05 at 05:25:12
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But every reader of Williams' book should suspect his recommendations. Just two examples:
1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.Nf3 o-o 6.o-o d6 7.Nc3 Qe8 8.Re1 Qg6 and Williams does not treat 9.Qb3, which can be unpleasant if Black is unprepared.
1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.Nf3 o-o 6.d5 and I think that Williams' recommendation Bb4+ is not his best idea because of 7.Bd2. Black should play Qe8 with the idea e5 or Ne4 transposing to the Alekhine Variation.
So even if you buy all three books, of Pinski, Williams and McDonald, there is still a lot of work to do.
« Last Edit: 05/20/05 at 10:38:01 by MNb »  

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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #26 - 05/20/05 at 05:03:27
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Quote:
I really want to like the Classical Dutch - is McDonald's book a better primer on this variation than Williams', or should I go straight for the latter?  Thanks!


If you haven't played the Classical before, I'd think McD is a very useful introduction (he spends pp 71-118 on the classical) especially since getting some rudimentary knowledge about the Stonewall & Leningrad too will always be useful.

Should you take a fancy to the Classical and if you have the time and motivation - then Williams', and also Pinski's, books should both be useful. Despite their common subject they present two different views of the classical.
  
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