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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch (Read 47437 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #55 - 06/04/05 at 17:27:51
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Bravo! Grin

Its nice that this thread has been inspirational for you.

Top Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #54 - 06/04/05 at 15:10:52
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Just a quick update and my humble opinion on the McDonald book that was the original topic of the thread - I've just finished the chapters on the Classical, and was very impressed.  At my level (no rating to offer, but it would be very modest if I had one) the explanatory text is worthwhile without being too basic, a problem I have seen in certain other books, especially (in this series) the Starting Out: Nimzo Indian book. I finished the section on the Classical and all the time kept playing it online and despite that feeling that others have reported about the Dutch feeling a bit shaky until the middlegame is well under way (and sometimes then some!) I have had some amusing wins with it.  I decided whilst reading that I was unlikely to be able to stay with the Dutch, but the wins I've had make it worthwhile, whilst the defeats haven't been as crushing as I feared, merely games where I've gone into an inferior endgame which I can achieve on my own with no help from an opening, it has to be said - it's still fun to play the positions I'm getting in the middlegame, and therein lies a good reason (I feel) for me to persevere - my middlegame play and tactical ability is hopefully going to improve by my playing the Dutch in comparison to the QGD, where things are obviously quite different.  Still, I went through so of the games in the Leningrad chapter and can add that I stil don't feel anywhere near comfortable with those, but would still recommend this book to anyone looking at exploring the Dutch.  In my opinion, Neil McDonald has done a great job here. As mentioned earlier, I'm no great player, but I've read plenty of chess books, and I can safely say that this is one of the better ones of them, in the context of it's coverage and target audience. I'm off to go through the book again in tandem with some of the comments/lines suggested earlier in this thread.
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #53 - 05/25/05 at 03:26:53
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Yes, you're absolutely right, Topnotch.  This is a something which used to concern me when I became aware that I was doing it, but isn't so important to me now as I enjoy the experimentation, albeit to the detriment of my game.  Although I often blame the opening I know that in reality it's my own ability/lack of experience with any given opening/set of resulting positions that is to blame for poor play and results. However, as I say, I find it to be rewarding in other ways, such as the fun that I get from playing different openings.  However, I only suffer from this when facing 1d4, as I have hardly ever varied from my response to 1e4, and have never (as White) played anything but the English Opening.  This highlights another problem with my play and development as a chess player - I have no experience of the Open Games! Still, there is only so much time to devote to chess Smiley 
Rather than delving more deeply into openings I spend most of my limited study time on endgames, which again is commonly held to be less useful than simply studying tactics!   Grin
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #52 - 05/24/05 at 13:23:41
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I think you change your Openings a bit too quickly. Grin

Switching from one opening to the other as soon as you encounter difficulties is not the answer. You have to come to grips with these problems first before even contemplating moving on.

Jumping around willy nilly only leads to a very superficial understanding of whatever opening you choose.

Regards

Top  Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #51 - 05/24/05 at 07:33:09
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Food for thought, TalJechin, re. McDonald's book.  I fear I am too weak to be able to tell!  But I will shortly receive this book and be able to take a look for myself (there are delays on getting the other two) - I haven't been playing chess long enough to really know many openings well, but the manouvers you talk about in the KID always struck me as convoluted and tricky. I much preferred the Grunfeld, but used to struggle in some lines, so moved to the QGD, which I find reliable but very dull. The only line in the QGD I dislike facing is the Bf4 stuff, but everything else is pretty straightforward and predictable, but just not exciting.   I think the Dutch is just more fun, and I have found in my recent experiments with it (and the Stonewall that I tried for a few months) that I enjoy the kingside attacks that I get. I'm not a very tactical player, so in the long run the Dutch may be wrong for me, but I have the desire to try it some more and see what it can teach me. As you say - it allows for the use of many tactical and strategic devices learnt from other openings, so I suppose it will perhaps improve my chess more than trying to convert an endgame edge in a QGD Tartakower. (Or trying to hold the draw... Smiley)
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #50 - 05/23/05 at 17:47:16
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Quote:
At least there will be more room to fight! 


Actually, that was also one of the main reason I went for the dutch. Besides, the KID started feeling like going through the motions with all that Nf6, Nh5, f5, Nf6 so it felt better to just play f5 and Nf6. And best of all, with the dutch you get a kind of chessic 'smörgåsbord' as nearly all of the pieces stay on the board, and you can use tactical and strategical manoeuvres from other openings surprisingly often...

I've gone through the Iljin main line chapter and though enlightening and very enthusiastic - there were two places were I was a bit sceptical/critical:

1) on page 94, on the virtues of a5 + Nc6-b4 gaining time on Qc2 so white's d4-d55 can eventually be met by e6-e5. (Nf6-e4xc3 Qxc3) & now ...Nc6 11.d5 Bf6 12.Qc2 Nb4 here I'm a bit worried about the unmentioned 13.Qd2 as e5 14.a3 Na6 15.Qxa5 picks up a pawn. Surely, this possible downside to ...a5 should've been worth mentioning?

2) p93 has two examples of a similar black device for gaining activity, once it's good and the 2nd time bad, but why it's different could've been elaborated a bit...

i.e 7.Nc3 a5! 

8.Qc2 Nc6! 9.e4 Nb4 10.Qe2 Nxe4 11.Nxe4 fxe4 12.Qxe4 e5! "intending 13...Bf5, activates Black's game". - At least to me it's not obvious why 13.dxe5 Bf5 14.Qxb7 here is so much worse than in the next example...

8.Re1 Ne4! 9.Qc2 Nc6? 10.Nxe4 Nb4 11.Qb1 fxe4 12.Qxe4 e5 13.dxe5! Bf5 14.Qxb7 Rb8 15.Qa7 Nc2 16.Bd2! "Black can take the exchange but his position will still be in ruins."

Perhaps McD is just quoting Williams? I'll try to check W later... At least these examples show that having more than one reference on the Iljin may turn out to be a useful thing for you, slates! Cheesy
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #49 - 05/23/05 at 09:43:32
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Well, I think I've tried (albeit briefly) nearly everything else against 1.d4, and although I have soft spots for some of them I really haven't been able to settle on anything for long.  So if I get an inferior position from time to time, perhaps that is better and more fun than the sterile equality I so often get in my normal QGD Tartakower.  At least there will be more room to fight! Smiley
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #48 - 05/23/05 at 08:50:36
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This is the only way to get a grip on the Iljin-Zjenevsky. I have changed opinions too many times myself to be confindent drawing definite conclusions...
I recognize TalJechin's experience of feeling uncomfortable. So for a long time I did not dare to play the IZ in corr. games. But I also have learned that Black's positions are very often not so bad as they look at first sight. It is true though, that even a slight mistake can lead to an inferior position very quickly.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #47 - 05/23/05 at 06:09:08
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Thanks for the input on this line, MNb.  I will play through it later to try to understand it fully with the benefit of a board in front of me.  Meantime I have ordered all three books with a view to getting some knowledge of the system with which to return to the forum with a more informed set of comments/questions!

Smiley
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #46 - 05/23/05 at 05:51:00
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After 7...Qe8 8.Re1 Qg6 is the main move, though Nc6 might be more precise.
But 7...Qe8 8.b3 a5 9.Re1 Qg6 10.e4 is an improved version for White, as b2-b3 is more useful than a7-a5. Hence Black must prevent 10.e4 and play 9...Ne4. An important factor is (after 7...Qe8 8.b3 a5 9.Re1) Ne4 10.Nxe4 fxe4 and the rook on e1 is a bit silly.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #45 - 05/22/05 at 16:08:08
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It's amazing I can use a keyboard at all, I know.... Smiley

Now then - 

Quote:
In the box you are typing in, you will then get square brackets with "quote" and "/quote" in them  Simply paste the quotation between the end of the first square bracket and the beginning of the second one 


If that doesn't do it I'll disappear in shame.  Smiley
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #44 - 05/22/05 at 16:05:35
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aha! Thanks....... so....

[In the box you are typing in, you will then get square brackets with "quote" and "/quote" in them  Simply paste the quotation between the end of the first square bracket and the beginning of the second one  ] [/quote]
  
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #43 - 05/22/05 at 15:23:13
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Quote:
Thanks - but how do I cut & paste someone else's message in order to quote it so that it appears in a box, like you have just done?  I cut & pasted and it just appeared as normal text - I tried the preview options, but they didn't make this clear.

You have to "insert quote" (I feel obliged to point out that it should say "insert quotation" but never mind!) using the button second from the end on the bottom row (if you drag your cursor over the buttons, it well tell you what they do).
In the box you are typing in, you will then get square brackets with "quote" and "/quote" in them  Simply paste the quotation between the end of the first square bracket and the beginning of the second one Smiley
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #42 - 05/22/05 at 15:13:23
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Thanks - but how do I cut & paste someone else's message in order to quote it so that it appears in a box, like you have just done?  I cut & pasted and it just appeared as normal text - I tried the preview options, but they didn't make this clear.  Apologies all for non-chess related post.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Has anyone checked out Starting Out: The Dutch
Reply #41 - 05/22/05 at 14:46:34
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Quote:
I'm also having trouble using the fonts etc - the word that didn't appear in bold type was 'only'....and was quoted directly from MNb's post.  


Try using the preview post feature, that way you will be able to see what your post will look like before uploading it.

Top  Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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