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Normal Topic C12,C17: My forray into 3.Nc3.Is it really easy (Read 2943 times)
Willempie
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Re: My forray into 3.Nc3. Is it really this easy?
Reply #6 - 04/13/05 at 17:57:43
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Three other comments on the 5 Bd2 line.
-Black can also exchange on c3 directly which isnt that bad as the loss of tempo of exchanging on c3 without a3 is offset by the mediocre position of the bishop.
-The knight on d6 is not that big a nuisance as it may seem on first sight. It has no retreats and thus must constantly be guarded if black doesnt want to exchange it.
-Check some games by Vaganian with black on this line. He is one of the major experts on the french Winawer.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Fernando Semprun
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Re: My forray into 3.Nc3. Is it really this easy?
Reply #5 - 04/13/05 at 02:03:37
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5.Bd2 is a nice weapon to have if you don't want risks (I use it to draw against much stronger opponents like IM del Rio) but I doubt that you would get more than a draw... unless you are playing weak players in which case anything is good, or somebody who would take undue risks... highly unlikely for a French player.
  

Fernando Semprun
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Arthur I
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Re: My forray into 3.Nc3. Is it really this easy?
Reply #4 - 04/13/05 at 01:06:51
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Thank you for your commentary.  Smiley

"Nimzo-Winawer: Black has 4...Ne7 5.Bd2 Nf5!? "

Hmm, this does put a monkey wrench into things. How about 6.Bd3?
6...Nxd4
7.Qg4 c5
8.Qxg7 Rf8
9.a3 and black loses the exchange  after
9...Bxc3
10.xc3 Nf5
11.Bxf5 xf5
12.Ba6 or a similar variant.

6...c5
7.Qg4 xd4
8.Bxf5 xf5
9.Qxd4

and
6...c5
7.Qg4 xd4
8.Bxf5 xc3
9.xc3 xf5
10.Qxg7 Rf8
11.xb4 both seem strong to me.

"or 4...c5 5.Bd2 Ne7 (Nc6!? is playable too) 6.Nb5 Bxd2+ 7.Qxd2 o-o 8.dxc5 (8.c3 Nf5 Stoltz-Nimzowitsj, match 1934) Nbc6 9.Nf3 b6 unclear, Spassky-Bronstein,1957. "
It seems the best reaction to the Stoltz-Nimzowich would be
9.Bd3 a6
10.Bxf5 xb6
11.Bc2
though White can of course go beserk, grab pawns and get mated  Grin
While I can't force a knight to d6 Cry I still think white has a pull in these lines without much to worry about.

"M(a)cCutcheon: 10...Nc6 lead to draws in three games "
11.0-0-0 e5
12.xe5 Bxg4
13.xf6 Bxd1
certainly looks interesting while aiming for 0-0-0 also leads to a double edged game. Black can also aim for the endgame line with his king on Kd7 which I haven't looked at these lines too deeply.


"and 10...Rxg7 11.Rh8+ Ke7 Barczay-Hoang, Budapest 2001, is a more ambitious try. "
This does look messy. Maybe Qh3 followed by castle?

I guess you did sort of ruined my dreams of riskless advantage in the MacCutcheon but I guess fresh, sharp positions are also welcome. Can someone help me assign advantage or equality to the MacCutcheon lines?

P.S. Word to the wise. Always copy long posts before posting. I neglected to fill the name box and would have been very sad if not for ctrl c.
  
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M.Nb
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Re: My forray into 3.Nc3. Is it really this easy?
Reply #3 - 04/12/05 at 20:40:39
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Nimzo-Winawer: Black has 4...Ne7 5.Bd2 Nf5!? or 4...c5 5.Bd2 Ne7 (Nc6!? is playable too) 6.Nb5 Bxd2+ 7.Qxd2 o-o 8.dxc5 (8.c3 Nf5 Stoltz-Nimzowitsj, match 1934) Nbc6 9.Nf3 b6 unclear, Spassky-Bronstein,1957.

M(a)cCutcheon: 10...Nc6 lead to draws in three games and 10...Rxg7 11.Rh8+ Ke7 Barczay-Hoang, Budapest 2001, is a more ambitious try.
  
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Arthur I
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Re: My forray into 3.Nc3. Is it really this easy?
Reply #2 - 04/12/05 at 19:29:56
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I don't think that matters are so easy for black.  8...a6 only forces the knight to d6 and if black doesn't follow up with the tension releasing 9...xd4 white will play 10.xc5 with a better (for White) version of the gambit I mentioned. 8...f6 seems to transpose into the 8...Nc6 line as black will certainly play f6 at some point and I don't see how alternative knight moves are beneficial for black. I agree that, alas, the knight cannot remain on d6 forever but it can last for a rather long time as neither of the black knights are in position to be traded in the next few moves, While the d6 knight lasts it will SEVERELY cramp blacks play and by the time an exchange is finally managed white will have set up a rook invasion. (Not to mention that the light squared bishops give endgame prospects to white.)
Of course the Winnower poisoned pawn and MacCutcheon main line promise white good winning chances, but what strikes me is how much white gets here for so little risk. Sensing that this might be too good to be true, I ask do any french players who have experienced these lines have improvements for black or continuations leading to equality?
  
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Willempie
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Re: My forray into 3.Nc3. Is it really this easy?
Reply #1 - 04/12/05 at 01:48:27
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Cant comment on the Mac, but your line is not more promising or less promising than others in the Winawer. I wouldnt play 8 .. Nbc6 myself but a6 or maybe even f6. The knight on d6 can be a nuisance, but is usually quite effectively dealt with by f6 (followed by Nc8 ) at some point. Still this line is definately not bad for white, not the least because it is an atypical line.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Arthur I
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C12,C17: My forray into 3.Nc3.Is it really easy
04/12/05 at 00:51:31
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Having played 2.Qe2 and the Tarrasch and failing to obtain positions I liked I'm going to try out 3.Nc3 with the following lines:
3...Bb4
4.e5 c5
5.Bd2

and
3...Nf6
4.Bg5 Bg4
5.e5 h6
6.xf6 xg5
7.xg7 Rg8
8.h4 xh4
9.Qg4 Qf6
10.Rxh4 Qxg7
11.Qxg7 Rxg7
12.Ra8+

The line against the Winawer appears to give white a good chance of advantage according to NCO (plus the possibility of a white knight on d6 makes me drool.) Is there some reason that this line isn't more popular? Even the equalizer Ne7 seems to give to give white a decent good bishop v bad bishop position after
5...Ne7
6.Nb5 Bxd2
7.Qxd2 0-0
8.c3 Nbc6
9.f4

or the opportunity grab a pawn with
8.xc5 Nbc6
9.f4 b6!

wheras pretty much everything else is given as +=/

After the MacCutcheon line black can choose between
12...Kd7
13.0-0-0 Nc6
14.g3 Bxc3
15.xc3 b6
16.c4 Bb7
17.Rxa8 Bxa8
18.xd5 xd5
where I think the outside passers and the better bishop give white the advantage and
12...Bc8
13.0-0-0 Bd7
14.Re1 Bc6
15. f4
where NCO gives the advantage to White.

Is it really this easy to get a riskless advantage against the French? Can I really just sidestep all that fuss about black counterplay AND drive black against the wall? Any comments would be greatly appreciated!!
« Last Edit: 08/03/11 at 19:38:37 by dom »  
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