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Normal Topic Move order at d4 system (Read 4849 times)
guidedbyvoices
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Re: Move order at d4 system
Reply #7 - 05/19/05 at 17:09:48
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As white, I open d4 & like catalan setup to avoid QGD & ChessLover 0 setup by Black.  

But no worry & really OK to face  Black's Slav/SemiSlav, KID/Gruenfeld g3, Benoni declined (d4 Nf6,c4 c5, Nf3 (not have to d4-d5), also Benko,Dutch

I didn't like too much Albin (coming from d4 d5,c4 e5) or Budapest (coming from d4 Nf6, c4 e5)

A. so am I perfectly OK that my move order is : 

IF 
1.d4 d5
2.Nf3 first instead of c4, so avoid Albin.  2...Nf6 
3.c4 e6 
4.g3 and so on

IF 
1.d4 Nf6 
2.Nf3 first to avoid Budapest. Then 2... e6
3.g3 d5
4.c4 and so on

IS there any other unexpected line that I have to face with this system ?

B.BUT  what is the best to face 
1.d4 d5, 
2.Nf3 "c5" immediately by Black?

thanks in advance for all your help.


you might also want to learn something against 1d4 d5 2Nf3 Nc6 if 3c4 then 3..Bg4 and black is in a line of the chigorin with little to fear having avoided the most troublesome lines and if 3g3 then 3..Bg4 followed by Qd7 and perhaps 0-0-0 with the idea of a quick kside attack.
  
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Willempie
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Re: Move order at d4 system
Reply #6 - 05/19/05 at 16:36:21
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Dont know much about the Albin, but the Budapest shouldnt be any worry. I used to play it as black, the best black can hope for (if white doesnt play something entirely stupid) is to get a middlegame with a lot less space. Just play the main line with either Bf4 or Nf3 (I like the latter better) and push for c5 or play the bishop to g2. It is not very scary for white as long as you avoid the variations with e4 (Alekhine) or the Nc3 one (1d4 Nf6 2 c4 e5 3 dxe5 Ng4 4Bf4 Nc6 5Nf3 Bb4+ 6 Nc3 Bxc3 ) where you get very nasty doubled pawns even with a pawn to the good it is nasty.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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lnn2
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Re: Move order at d4 system
Reply #5 - 05/14/05 at 22:24:42
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Actually my impression is that there are some professional 1. d4 players who never play anything else but 1. d4. They rarely "escape" to 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 but almost always play 1. d4 e.g. Dreev, I. Sokolov, Gelfand, Van Wely, Bareev, Sakaev(?),  etc.  These are the players I study alot for White.

Surely the great appeal of 1. d4 for me, has always been its tendency to a nice balance between a closed and open position. Therefore I have never felt a need to maintain two opening repertoires (one "closed" and one "open").
  
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Semkov
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Re: Move order at d4 system
Reply #4 - 05/14/05 at 16:09:40
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Only professional players can afford to maintain a "full-blown, GM-level repertoire". In fact most of them have two - one 1.e4 and one closed. Normal people should not be worried if they have white spots in some systems. It is even refreshing sometimes to play without blueprints. More important is to try being consistent - one should not refrain from the better option only because he had not studied it. That is unproductive and hampers improving.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Move order at d4 system
Reply #3 - 05/14/05 at 07:55:00
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Choosing a repertoire is purely a matter of taste. Chess-stars opening series offers one approach, based on 1.Nf3, followed by 2.c4 or 2.d4. 


Yes, Chess Stars' "White According to Kramnik" is a very fine presentation of a full-blown, GM-level repertoire with "closed" systems.  I am happy to have all five volumes.  Even though these works are not so recent any more, they stand up to recent theory very well.   There is a lot of work in this repertoire, of course.  White has to be able to play a number of lines of the Symmetrical English, for example. 
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Semkov
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Re: Move order at d4 system
Reply #2 - 05/14/05 at 04:33:17
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Choosing a repertoire is purely a matter of taste. Chess-stars opening series offers one approach, based on 1.Nf3, followed by 2.c4 or 2.d4. However there are 
TWO CRITICAL ISSUES:
1. How to face 1...Nf6, 2...e6
2. How to face 1...Nf6 2...g6 intending 3...d5

All other systems come only on the second or third stage of building a repertoire. For instance, the Budapest or Albin are clearly inferior openings for Black. White can get a healthy small positional edge with 2-hours preparation and could never spend more time on them. 

White's REAL problem is that he has no fresh ideas against the Nimzo. That fact ruins all attempts of building an active repertoire (which does not include Nf3 for sure. When you play d4 and c4 the logical approach is to fight for e4 and Nf3 is not helpful in that).

Not so acute, but certainly troublesome problem is the Gruenfeld. It is more and more evident, that White is helpless to generate good ideas in the main central lines. This explains the move order of the Chess-stars series - 1.Nf3, 2.c4 - an Anti-Gruenfeld approach. 

Finally,an answer to your question:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 is best met with 3.c4! Then Black's choice is a Tarrasch which always will remain a second-grade system (not that you can refute it, but simply White has too much chances for a long-term pull) and 3...dc4 which leads to a side-line of the QGA. The growing popularity of this line made us add a whole new 12-pages chapter in the second edition of the QGA.
  
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ChessLover
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Re: Move order at d4 system
Reply #1 - 05/13/05 at 23:09:28
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BUT, hey I just noticed that if :
1.d4 Nf6
2.Nf3 e6
3. g3 

if Black respon 3... b6 , then it will certain go to QID lines.

so if you prefer to face Budapest than QID, then 1.d4 nf6, 2.c4 is still the best, because

1.d4 Nf6
2.c4 e6
3.g3 b6 ?!
will go to 4. Bg2 then it's the nice QID for white.

Ok, pls suggest me if I'm right or wrong. Once again thanks a lot
  
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ChessLover
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Move order at d4 system
05/13/05 at 22:55:08
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As white, I open d4 & like catalan setup to avoid QGD & QID setup by Black.   

But no worry & really OK to face  Black's Slav/SemiSlav, KID/Gruenfeld g3, Benoni declined (d4 Nf6,c4 c5, Nf3 (not have to d4-d5), also Benko,Dutch

I didn't like too much Albin (coming from d4 d5,c4 e5) or Budapest (coming from d4 Nf6, c4 e5)

A. so am I perfectly OK that my move order is : 

IF 
1.d4 d5
2.Nf3 first instead of c4, so avoid Albin.  2...Nf6 
3.c4 e6 
4.g3 and so on

IF 
1.d4 Nf6 
2.Nf3 first to avoid Budapest. Then 2... e6
3.g3 d5
4.c4 and so on

IS there any other unexpected line that I have to face with this system ?

B.BUT  what is the best to face 
1.d4 d5, 
2.Nf3 "c5" immediately by Black?

thanks in advance for all your help.
  
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