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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Vs. e4 with least theory? (Read 73385 times)
elta
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #44 - 05/22/05 at 01:29:10
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and the arguments presented are almost never compelling and mostly full of gibberish.



this is an interesting thread and i see really no need to discriminate some posts only because you dont agree with their opinion about the scandinavian opening, TopNotch, all posts were related to the topic.
  
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lnn2
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #43 - 05/21/05 at 19:16:16
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I'm not sure what you are talking about here Inn2, nobody claimed the Scandinavian was simple, but relatively speaking I would contend it contains the least amount of theory of the mainstream defences to 1e4 (although willempies suggestion of the rubinstein french also has something to be said for it) . How can you possibly claim that the Caro Kann is easier to learn than the Scandinavian when in the Caro Kann white can choose from the Fantasy, the Advance, the Exchange, the Panov, the Two Kights and 3Nc3 to name just a few?  whereas against the Scandinavian white has to play 2exd5 and after 2..Qxd5 3Nc3 black can choose which variation to specialise in. 


There is a difference between whether you *need* to learn the theory to survive, as in the scandinavian, or whether you just need to know the first few moves of the opening and can make it up OTB as you go along, as in the c-k or rubinstein french.

Regarding the caro, I believe you don't have to study much playing against the fantasy (3... e6, b6/Ba6/Bb4), two knights (3... Bg4), advance (3... c5). The combined work-load of these different lines is less than the scandinavian. Grin

In the scandi, you MUST learn all the main-lines if you want to emerge with anything resembling a playable position.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #42 - 05/21/05 at 19:13:54
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I suggest that guests be barred from posting Grin

This will avoid the annoyance of the same person posting with multiple handles as well as making it easier to deal with other abuses.

Guests should be allowed to read posts and thats it, if they want to do more than that, then register.

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« Last Edit: 05/22/05 at 10:33:54 by TopNotch »  

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elta
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #41 - 05/21/05 at 17:30:03
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I suggest we better refrain from commenting other posts (as long as they have to say something related to chess) even if it may be hard for you accept other opinions, TopNotch.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #40 - 05/21/05 at 14:25:28
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Sometimes I think some of you respond just for the sake of it  Grin

You often contradict yourselves, and the arguments presented are almost never compelling and mostly full of gibberish.

Lets try to refrain from spamming shall we.  

Top  Grin
  

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Guido
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #39 - 05/21/05 at 13:45:19
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like somebody stated already in another thread, there is a major difference between there is much theory and you need to know much theory..
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #38 - 05/21/05 at 13:33:08
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That was the original query and the title of this thread.  Grin
 

and the answer to roger3's question is ... the scandinavian
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #37 - 05/21/05 at 13:08:39
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What is the opening vs. e4, that you can play with nearly always the same setup and the same position, with least theory just from your feeling, right away?


That was the original query and the title of this thread.  Grin

The query had nothing to do with what contained the least amount of theory of mainstream defences. Any reliable Mainstream defence requires plenty of theoretical work and knowledge.

The popularity of the Scandanavian has risen in recent years, as a result the theory has grown significantly, it is no longer possible to play this defence as you say, 'With your hands'. Of course if your opponent doesn't know any theory either then you both can play with your hands in virtually any Opening.

Here is the catch, if an Opening with little theory begins to do well, it is assured that that success will lead to an explosion of theoretical and practical interest. So you will be right back where you started to begin with.

Get used to it, to be good at chess, you have to work hard at it. To get good results against good players you have to commit and make some sacrifices in other aspects of your life. However if your opposition is not that tough, then just play what suits your style, and forget about Opening theory. 
 
There are no shortcuts, no magic bullets, no secret potions to becoming a Chessmaster.

Top  Grin  
« Last Edit: 05/21/05 at 14:21:14 by TopNotch »  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #36 - 05/21/05 at 10:13:43
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I agree with Topnotch that the scandinavian is not simple at all! 

The caro-kann is simpler as long as you are willing to play slightly offbeat lines


I'm not sure what you are talking about here Inn2, nobody claimed the Scandinavian was simple, but relatively speaking I would contend it contains the least amount of theory of the mainstream defences to 1e4 (although willempies suggestion of the rubinstein french also has something to be said for it) . How can you possibly claim that the Caro Kann is easier to learn than the Scandinavian when in the Caro Kann white can choose from the Fantasy, the Advance, the Exchange, the Panov, the Two Kights and 3Nc3 to name just a few?  whereas against the Scandinavian white has to play 2exd5 and after 2..Qxd5 3Nc3 black can choose which variation to specialise in. 
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #35 - 05/21/05 at 09:42:59
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I agree with Topnotch that the scandinavian is not simple at all! 

The caro-kann is simpler as long as you are willing to play slightly offbeat lines (which do not have 100% 2700 GM approval, but at least has 100% 2500-2600 GM approval!) 

Nonetheless if White is to "refute" these lines, he must engage in a full-scale tactical brawl when you always get chances. 

Against the advance, try 3... c5.   

Against the panov, try 5... Nc6 and then Be6.  Leko has played this before. It is also a favourite of Tracke (the forum's c-k guru). 

3. Nc3 is the biggest problem, which can be met by 3... dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5! and you can go for the slightly offbeat stuff like 11. Bf4 Bb4+ or 11. Bf4 Nd5!? Both has been tried by the great c-k expert Alexey Dreev. You should also know something about the Jobava-Bareev pawn sac in the 11. Bd2 line. 

For even less theory, you can play 4... h6 (99% of players below 2100 have no idea how to refute this!). Even 4... Nd7 is not so theory-bound, if after 5. Ng5 you play 5.... Ndf6 intending Bg4 next: this may well be the most logical approach for a c-k player!

I wouldn't maintain that these lines have the "least theory", but sidelines in "main" openings are always stronger than offbeat openings, and you have the opportunity to upgrade further. 

Btw, i rather like Willempie's rubinstein french approach too. Topnotch's misgivings seem to concern the amount of theory. But if one is really too lazy to study for a repertoire based on the rubinstein french, then he is really hopeless!
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #34 - 05/21/05 at 06:17:13
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I totally agree with Scipio_Rex's and Willempie's comments on how to learn a new opening.  I made similar comments in a separate thread (http://altmax.com/cgi-local/cpf/YaBB.cgi?board=1e4;action=display;num=1116512229).
Willempie, you say that approach works better for some openings than for others.  Could you give some examples of openings for which it works and for which it doesn't? ???
Thanks
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #33 - 05/20/05 at 09:11:39
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I agree with the sentiment, I just feel there are certain openings for which it is easier to take the plunge before studying the books. Ever since I read Yermolinsky's book I just play something after seeing some games with it (like the french or the KI) and after some games with a new opening I look up the theory if I like it. 
That said the approach works better for certain openings than for others as I have experienced on the black side of a Benko.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Scipio_Rex
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #32 - 05/20/05 at 07:54:24
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Hello Folks!
Sorry, but sometimes this "fear of theory"-thing is driving me nuts. TopNotch is completely right. There's nothing for free; especially not a reliable answer to 1 e4!

Around my chess area, I know a lot of people who try to practice the "one fits all"-approach. Usually they play 1 e4, followed by a King's Indian "Attack" setup, they gain, how shall I put it, not much from the opening, end up in passive positions and draw (at best!). But they have avoided theory!

OK, I can understand that you can get scared when you look at something like the Sicilian Dragon for Black.
But I thought the main point is to get to play positions that suit you, not to reproduce book lines.
You shoult PLAY an opening, not parrot its books.

Whatever defence you choose against 1 e4, there will be a certain workload. Find out what kind of middlegame you like to play. Make up your mind if you want mere equality or obtain winning chances. There's a lot of openings and subvariations to choose from.
Try it out it Blitz or computer games.
When you've found one you like, just play it. And look up theory afterwards! Playing and learning go hand in hand. If you know why you put your pieces on certain squares, you don't need to "learn" too much (well, at least something would always be helpful...).

The only thing you should avoid are those highly tactical lines, where assessments change from day to day and every move is worth its weight in gold.
You're not obliged to play anything of the like!
Even the Sicilian can be played without having to burn the midnight oil.
Play chess, not theory!
(Sorry if I sound too harsh, but I hope my point is clear.)
Lips Sealed
  
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Guido
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #31 - 05/20/05 at 06:41:13
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???

1.e4 e6, 2.d4 c5, 3.d5 is, if I am not completely mistaken, the Benoni Defense, isnt it?
  
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Roger 3
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #30 - 05/20/05 at 06:27:19
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Thanks for your ideas.
Indeed I had a closer look at the Basman Sicilian, one of the most interesting low-theory-Sicilians. But then I discovered one very nasty variation. I currently dont sit in front of a chess board, but I remember that it had to do with Be3, of course answered by Qb6, then Nc3 (answered by Nc6?, not sure of that) and - if I remember correct - in the 7th move White played Nb5, and whatever followed then, was really not very inviting!
  
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