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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Vs. e4 with least theory? (Read 73389 times)
Geof_Strayer
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #74 - 05/27/05 at 21:26:48
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This is an interesting thread.  I have nothing really new to add but I am going to offer a little additional support to Inn2's and Tracke's perspectives.

I think part of Inn2 and Tracke's point is that in the Scandinavian there are numerous sharp attacking lines for White in which Black may objectively have a playable game, but he is living rather close to the edge and, consequently, needs to know what he is doing.  Moreover, the theory in some critical and sharp lines of the Scandi seems to be in a state of flux at the moment.

The Scandi may be the perfect opening for a player of certain strength playing others of a certain strength to learn with minimal effort (particularly the ...Qxd5, ...Qa5, ...Nf6, ...c6, ...Bf5 lines).  Except for lines where White delays c2-c4, the set-up is almost universal, it is rather solid albeit provocative (all that shunting about with the Q!), and if White is not prepared and plays passively Black can get a nice position by playing fairly automatic moves. 

However, I agree with Tracke and Inn2 that against opponents above a certain level who are prepared for the Scandi and strong enough to punish a bad opening on a fairly regular basis, you may actually need to know more theory in the Scandi to survive the opening and get a playable position than in the Caro-Kann.  In a line like the ...Qxd5 Scandi, where Black gives up some development from the start and doesn't place a great deal of immediate pressure on White's center, White can choose from a number of promising set-ups where Black, in order to defend, may have to know some "only moves" to survive against a well-prepared opponent.  Mistakes in the Scandi caused by ignorance of theory or of recent games can, in a number of sharp variations, be almost instantly fatal.  So, against a prepared opponent who chooses an aggressive line, the Scandi player is walking a bit of a tightrope between = (or, more probably, +=) positions and +-  (I mean + over - here but don't know how to do the symbol) positions, and in such situations knowing the theory becomes rather critical.

In the absolute mainline of the Caro-Kann with ...Bf5, Black gets a similar solid set-up with the ...e6 and ...c6 pawns, but he hasn't given up development with the ...Qxd5 and ...Qa5 maneuver as in the ...Qxd5 Scandi, and as a result he is less vulnerable to quick and forceful attacks in most lines.  Also, much of the theory in the Caro-Kann is what might be called "grandmaster theory": largely concerned with the struggle by White to get a += position and the struggle by Black to get an = one.  It often takes a lot of positional understanding and technique to win such positions as White even when Black makes mistakes.  So while the theoretical baggage associated with the Caro-Kann is large and  certainly useful to know, IMO a large part of this theory is not absolutely critical to Black's survival or even his ability to get a playable game, even against a  relatively strong and prepared opponent of 2100 or even 2200 elo.   

Another way to look at this is with a solid pawn structure, Black can usually get away with several non-developing or counter-intuitive moves without encountering fatal problems.  But in the ...Qxd5 Scandi you play those moves right away (...Qxd5!? and ...Qa5 or ...Qd6), whereas in the Caro-Kann you keep those moves in reserve.  (This is a gross oversimplification, of course, but I believe there is an element of truth in this, particularly when considered in the context of White's sharper tries.)

Of course there are sharp lines in the Advance Variation of the Caro-Kann, the Fantasy Variation, the Panov-Botvinnik attack, etc., but in each of these variations Black has solid options where he maintains parity or near-parity in development, and Black can often survive simply by playing natural, logical moves.  Even in subvariations where some knowledge of theory is critical, my impression is that the range of immediately threatening set-ups for White is relatively narrow.

In fairness, my statements above may exagerrate the size of the difference in "safety" levels between the Scandi and the Caro-Kann a bit in order to make my point, but I do believe that this difference exists, and that it has an effect on the amount of theory you need to know against opponents above a certain level.  Below that level, you may do just as well or better with the Scandi than the Caro-Kann.  If you aren't likely to face 2100-2200+ elo players very often, or you don't particularly mind losing to players in that range, then perhaps the Scandi is a good opening for you.  (I happen to agree with John Cox that the Alekhine is also not a bad choice given such conditions, because if you limit yourself to the solidest lines for Black there is surprisingly little theory that you really need to know unless you are facing a very well-prepared opponent.)  But I take Inn2's and Tracke's point to be two-fold:

(i)   With opponents above a certain level, you will      start to come under pressure in a number of lines in the Scandi unless you are quite well-prepared, and because the theory of a number of sharp variations is still in flux, you will not only have to learn a substantial amount of critical theory to survive in these lines, you will also need to keep up with developments.  These points may also be true of the Caro-Kann, but to a lesser extent.

(ii)   If your goals in chess are relatively ambitious but you still want to learn modest amount of theory at this point, you are better off learning a solid and completely sound opening like the Caro, rather than a somewhat riskier opening like the Scandi.  The Caro will always be playable at any level, you can choose between various sound lines, and you can build on your knowledge forever.  Because it is intrinsically less risky and provocative than the Scandi, there is also more scope for experimentation in many variations of the Caro-Kann, where a slightly inferior move is more likely to lead to a small disadvantage rather than cause serious problems.



     
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #73 - 05/27/05 at 19:57:34
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I still say Lion, Hippo or 1...a6

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #72 - 05/27/05 at 12:06:54
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i agree with you about the caro kann mnb but i rather think the first poster was asking with which opening can one get a reasonably playable position against 1e4 while at the same time keeping theory to a minimum. I guess theres no opening now that can be played without at least knowing some rudimentary theory. my fellow countryman the king's example seems to suggest that the scandinavian may fit the bill. i know it wouldnt be to everyones taste, but someone wanting a cure all for 1e4 without necessarily committing themselves to learning masses of theory could do a lot worse.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #71 - 05/27/05 at 09:01:26
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I wonder what defence against 1.e4 is playable without knowing theory? The Caro-Kann certainly not. There are several sharp lines - eg the Von Hennig-Milner Gambit with the Alchemy Attack - which Black should rather know.
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #70 - 05/27/05 at 07:18:06
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Surely below a certain level it doesn't matter what you play... if both sides are 1200, either will surely make a blunder that will decide the game. But assuming both sides are reasonably strong club players (or aspiring to be one!) , ie. fide elo>2100 playing in an international open etc, then the scandi is too risky with no theory. 

About the Alekhine, I've had Mr. John Cox's book for several weeks now, and as fantastic as the book is, it cannot convince me to just play it OTB "like that" after several  hours of reading that book and practice blitz games. Perhaps that well-known statement about the Alekhine is true (did Davies or Cox say it??): the Alekhine scores very well for specialists, but occasional users don't fare well with it.  Undecided
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #69 - 05/27/05 at 05:50:19
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I think John Cox's point 'it really depends what level of play one is considering and in what sort of environment' is an important one.  To use myself as an example. I took up the ...Qa5 Scandinavian about 1.5 years ago after playing the Sicilian Kan for about 4 years previously.

I played it 12 times in local leagues and tournaments since then.  I won three drew eight and lost one (to a local fide master rated 2360).  My rating is 1700 and most of opponents (apart from the above mentioned fide master) were between 1500 and 1900 - on average probably a bit higher then me.

I found none of my opponents played critical lines, and I mostly had comfortable equality from the opening.  All the games were weekend tournaments or local league matchs so none of my opponents would have been able to prepare for me in advance.

The only preparation I had was a couple of viewings of Andrew Martin's DVD - The Scheming Scandinavian.  I didn't memorise any variations but just had a vague idea of trying to use a white square strategy.

The point is that this was enough at my level and the environment I play in.  You could say I was lucky that no one played the critical lines, and you may be right, but the fact is that this has been my best scoring defence to 1.e4 ever.
  
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Reply #68 - 05/27/05 at 05:22:39
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Alekhine calls for more knowledge... i simply play 2.Nc3 as white... dont want to go wrong against a prepared player. 

Though id say its the best opening against a "Smashing opponent", ie some guy who thinks he can smash you in 10 moves.... they can really destroy themselves in alekhine positions as white....
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #67 - 05/26/05 at 17:03:57
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Quote:

I'm pretty sure that's not what tracke meant,


well maybe you should read what he said again...

Nearly all master players, most expert players and even many clubplayers have enough attacking skills to destroy Black after some preparation, without giving Black any chance for defending or counterattack

it sure sounds to me like he is saying it's busted.       john coxs point about the alekhine is interesting though. can black really hope to hold everything together with just that amount of knowledge? if so then the elusive answer to roger3's question might have arrived!
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #66 - 05/26/05 at 16:54:12
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Returning to the original question; it really depends what level of play one is considering and in what sort of environment: I know some local leagues where knowing the first five moves of the Sicilian Dragon makes you a theoretical guru.

At the risk of plugging myself, the Alekhine can be played with very little theoretical knowledge. If they go 4 Nf3, go dxe5 5 Nxe5 c6, then Bf5 and Nd7. If they play the Exchange, go ...exd6, Be7/Bg4/00/Nc6/Bf6. If they play the Four Pawns, go 6..c5 7 d5 g6 and see what happens. I'm not saying it'll work against a GM, but in chess below 2100 level you'll do fine (if the opening suits you) knowing more or less nothing beyond what I've just said.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #65 - 05/26/05 at 16:37:35
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Speaking of strong opposition...
Last tuesday i was black against a 2170 opponent (Im 1770). the guy knew i was playing scandi, and also knew i play 4...e5 after 4.d4, so heres the opening:

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.d4 Bg4 6.h3 
Bh5 7.g4 (wasn't expecting this...) 7...Bg6 8.Ne5 c6 9.Bg2 e6 10.0-0. I ended up losing the game, only to later find out Australian GM Rogers used to play it on the black side. 

Now you might say "see, here you were busted by a strong player" but in fact i played theory without knowing i was, and lost due to mistakes in the middlegame. White has pressure, but black has a lotta tricks up his sleeve.

Kinda illustrates the point, this is quite an old variation iirc Karpov walked over Rogers in 1983 in this variation. I played through that game in an old "learn chess" book years ago as an illustration on how to use a space advantage.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #64 - 05/26/05 at 16:18:10
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gee tracke from your quote above it would seem like the Scandinavian is completely busted. you might want to keep that one to yourself so that next time a GM is foolish enough to play it against you, you can crush him in 30 moves without giving him any chance for defending or counterattack  Smiley

I'm pretty sure that's not what tracke meant, I believe he rather meant that in the Scandinavian white can learn extremely dangerous attacking ideas and reproduce them over-the-board without investing all that much time. If then black does not know exactly how to react, he does often lose without ever getting anything resembling counter-play. And of course I'm still waiting for a GM to offer to play the black side of the Wahls-Scandinavian against me...  Wink
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #63 - 05/26/05 at 14:49:46
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Speaking of strong opposition...
Last tuesday i was black against a 2170 opponent (Im 1770). the guy knew i was playing scandi, and also knew i play 4...e5 after 4.d4, so heres the opening:

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.d4 Bg4 6.h3 
Bh5 7.g4 (wasn't expecting this...) 7...Bg6 8.Ne5 c6 9.Bg2 e6 10.0-0. I ended up losing the game, only to later find out Australian GM Rogers used to play it on the black side. 

Now you might say "see, here you were busted by a strong player" but in fact i played theory without knowing i was, and lost due to mistakes in the middlegame. White has pressure, but black has a lotta tricks up his sleeve.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #62 - 05/24/05 at 18:58:41
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The scandi isn't 100% busted. More like it is under pressure from so many directions, it is too time-consuming to repair it every month. Its not even like the Sicilian, where the compensation for studying theory is you get chances to checkmate White!! Here you study so many tactical lines only to reach "boring" equality....Undecided 

As someone who plays the c-k (and I imagine Tracke as well), the scandinavian is of course appealing because it reaches the same type of pawn structure! I would dearly love to make the scandinavian my main weapon, but it is too difficult. 

In this sense, the scandinavian is somewhat like the Pirc (but perhaps worse!?): White has too many nice lines, all of which demand careful prep from black.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #61 - 05/24/05 at 16:32:26
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You mean the Scandanavian isn't busted?  Grin
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #60 - 05/24/05 at 15:16:08
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2. I did not contradict myself in the above post. Maybe my explanation was too short!? - The point is that in nearly all Scandi lines it doesn´t take a GM on the white side to reproduce a win along the promising lines shown in GM games. Nearly all master players, most expert players and even many clubplayers have enough attacking skills to destroy Black after some preparation, without giving Black any chance for defending or counterattack. White´s attacking lines in the Scandi are direct, clear and easy to learn!


gee tracke from your quote above it would seem like the Scandinavian is completely busted. you might want to keep that one to yourself so that next time a GM is foolish enough to play it against you, you can crush him in 30 moves without giving him any chance for defending or counterattack  Smiley
  
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