Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Vs. e4 with least theory? (Read 73368 times)
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #104 - 08/16/09 at 01:25:32
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Here are my list of suggestions:

a) 1.e4 d5 2.ed5 Qd5 3.Nc3 Qe5, the Patzer Variation. But you still have to be prepared for White's 2nd and 3rd move alternatives.
b) 1.e4 g5 - the only theory you need to know is that 2.d4 Bg7 3.Bg5 c5 is okay for Black, and play ...h6 and seek counterplay on the dark squares. Play it at your own risk.
c) 1.e4 a6 2.d4 b5 - it's a clear += for White, but can be played with only one setup in mind.
d) The Hippopotamus, but to reach it in its favourable versions (without c4 or f4), you have to be flexible and willing to transpose to mainstream openings.
e) 1.e4 c6 2.d4 Na6 - dubious but very tricky.
f) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Qe7, which is also += but as solid as any Phillidor. You can even play it against 2.f4.
g) 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d5, as recommended in the first SOS book.
h) 1.e4 Nc6 isn't very theoretical, especially if you follow up with 2...d6 on autopilot, with ...Nf6, ...Bg4 etc, meeting d5 with ...Nb8 or ...Ne5.
i) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Bg4 3.Nc3 Bd1 - a great trick in 1-minute chess.
j) 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nc6 - a lot tricker than it looks.
k) 1.e4 c5 and meet any move except 2.d4 with 2...b6, playing a slightly improved Owen's Defence.
l) The Mokele Mkembe with 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Ne4.
m) The Insane 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Ng8. Meet 2.Nc3 and 2.d3 with 2...d5 3.e5 Ng8.
n) 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 and play 3...b6 against all sensible moves except 3.ed5.
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #103 - 08/15/09 at 14:09:47
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Hi, 

Below expert level 
I would suggest the French. 
Black has a firm foothold in the center   
and has avoided the gambit stuff after 1.e4 e5. 
This is very important if you don't want to study theory. 

There are only relatively few pawn structures. 
With practice and analysis after the game it is 
inevitable that you understand them better than your 
equally rated opponent in the long run. 

3.Nc3 is difficult to prepare for White, if Black 
responds with 3...Nf6. After 4.e5 there are 
many transpositional devices for Black. 
After 4.Bg5 White has to be prepared against three 
main systems. 

3.Nd2 is no developing move, so it is no 
surprise that Black has a lot of sidelines 
and main lines availabe, 
White must know them all.   

If Black has to repair his Defence against 
3.Nd2 or 3.Nc3 there is an escape with the Rubinstein. 

Indeed, the French is very theoretical in high level chess. 

But beyond expert level it is another story: 
After 3.Nd2 or 3.Nc3 Black chooses the line which comes 
on the board, and he has more experience with the resulting 
structure, not so bad prospects in practice. 

That leads many White players to the Advance (even Sveshnikov, 
who admits in his book that 3.Nc3 is clearly White's best move), 
the King's Indian Attack or the Exchange.   

The French is relatively unpopular in top level chess, 
so crushing novelties are not so probable. 

I admit that the Hanham formation is less work, but it is much more 
difficult to enlarge your opening repertoire, 
because you will miss the e5 strong point, if you try to vary.   

If you have made it into the databases, White could play 1.e4 d6 
2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 - nothing special but now e5 would be suboptimal - 
and again you will miss the e5-strong point you are used to. 

I think to sidestep the French is a bit more tricky.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #102 - 08/15/09 at 12:56:47
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same setup and same theory? (maybe the word used should be similiar) I think all of you have made valid choices. I would like to add the Czech Defence, Accelerated Dragon, and the Modern.  Grin Even the French could be pruned down to relatively little theory, just depends on how much work you wish to do ?  Smiley I think the type of result you are looking for plays apart in your opening choices. So I would tend to favor Alekhine, Owens, Hippo, and Philidor ... over the Caro and Scandinavian ... because the later positions are to clear.  Cry  Which makes it easier for your opponent to find his way. Thats my 2 cents towards the Horse!!  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #101 - 09/01/05 at 12:31:37
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TopNotch wrote : Quote:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5!? 
 
Now here is your challenge, show me how White gets a big advantage against the above. To my knowledge he can at best secure a slight edge. 


In "Opening for White according to Anand 4, Khalifman suggest 4.dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 to fight for an advantage. It is covered in 31 pages. I don't know if White have necessary a clear advantage, but they have a durable +/= and can hope for more.

In comparison with 1.e4 d6 2.e4 e5!? 3.dxe5 I think it's Better for Black than 1.e4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.dxe5 because Black have not commited with Nf6, and can play the solid move f6 to cover Ng5 treath, Bxc4 treath, and cover the e-pawn. But that's only my idea.


And after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 d5 3.Nf3 transposing in a phillidor also, like after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf6

So where is Black's advantage to play first 2..Nf6 if he want to transpose in a Phillidor? 

And about the subject, I think that the Owen defense (1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7) is not a bad choice, you just should have strategical principes, and understanding of the position, but there is no hugh variations to learn.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #100 - 07/26/05 at 18:53:27
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Yes Felipao, Ilundain is right:  1.e4 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8?!4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Ne5 e6 8.g4! Bg6 9.h4 Bb4 10.f3! Nd5 [Alternatively 10...Bxc2?! is an ingenious sac, but insufficient] This is safer than 10...Bxc2, but in all probability he may still already be lost. Grin

Top Grin    
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #99 - 07/26/05 at 13:43:20
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In the line Topnotch mentions against the Garcia Ilundain Scandinavian (Qd8) there is the very complicated 10. f3 Bxc2 (!) of 1-0 Perez,L-Lopez Martinez,J/Varadero 2000. and  0-1 Herrera,I-Del Rio Angelis,S/Santa Clara 2000. The first is a nice win for white and the last is what would seem to be the refutation of white's sacrifice.

But all is not so simple as former Qd8 specialists as Candela, Del Rio and Lopez Martinez seem to have abandoned the defence.

David (Garcia Ilundain) never played anything but 10. f3 Nd5 and he dismissed the whole Bxc2 idea as "rubbish" when i asked this thoughts on the variation.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #98 - 06/22/05 at 20:04:57
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Personally, I wander randomly between all the e4 defenses with and early d5 : Fench, Caro, and Scandinavian. Experience playing one benefits the others. After a while, one develops enough feeling for the positions that concrete theory becomes less relevant, Besides, class players are just bundles of weaknesses anyway, and I can always find a way to lose in an unbooked middlegame.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #97 - 06/05/05 at 10:11:09
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Though I might be one of the better players in the country, it is doubtful that I am in the top 6. Though I have managed to win against Matoewi etc, I have overall a negative score against them. Then it is hard for me, to leave school for an Olympiad, as there is nobody to replace me. And indeed Suriname does exclude non national residents.
For more info on the tournament, please contact:

Franklin Mungroo <ssbkommissietoernooien@yahoo.com>

or

Michael Siban
<msiban2000@yahoo.com>

A quote from the newsletter M.Siban send me:

"The Suriname Chess Federation will provide room, meals and transportation for the invited players."

So who knows? If you mention my full name - M.Nieuweboer - I am sure, they will react.
Alas I am not sure myself, if I will be able to participate.
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #96 - 06/04/05 at 12:29:26
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Quote:
I'm not really a fan of Qd8 either to be honest but cant black follow Adams example and play 9...Nbd7 instead of Bb4?


Yes GBV 9...Nbd7 is certainly a safer option, but White is comfortably better there Grin

9...Bb4 seeks to take the initiative from White and is far more ambitious. As I said earlier Andrew Martin suggests that this maybe ok for Black based on some improvements he found and suggests on the game Kotronias vs Candela Perez - 2003.

I have my doubts however.

Top Grin
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #95 - 06/04/05 at 12:14:35
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The last time I was in Surinam I had to travel to Guyana first and then take a ferry over  Grin

I do not like ferries very much as they seem wholly unreliable, somewhat like the Kings Gambit in that respect Grin

Also when it came time to leave Surinam the authorities tried to seize my Chess Clock among other things, as they seem rather strict on taking goods out of the Country including prizes. I had a helluva time convincing them that I brought the Chess Clock in for the tournament. 

It would be nice to see Surinam again and whether the political situation has changed. Post more details regarding the tournament, in particular Prize Fund, cost of accomodation, is it Fide rated etc.. Better yet, is there a website where the information can be found.

Regards

Top Grin

Postscript: I almost forgot to ask, if you were in Surinam 9 Years already, and are better than the best players there, why were you not in the Olympiad team. Does Surinam have a policy excluding non national residents from representing the country.
« Last Edit: 06/05/05 at 11:09:38 by TopNotch »  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #94 - 06/04/05 at 10:34:18
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Inn2: Yes. I even think there is a distinction between += where Black tries to improve to = like the Petrov and the Caro-Kann and straightforward equality with counterplay, like the Sicilian: 1.e4 c5! =. Of course Black has to spend a lot of time on preparing this, but as I said before: there is no miracle cure. If there was, all top GM's would use it and chess would be in the grave with at least one leg.

TN: great. From 1 august to 8 august there will be an international tournament in Paramaribo.
With exception of Dos Ramos and Gajadin I have won against all players you mentioned.
Those Suriname players know me rather well and will agree, that my house in Moengo - 100 km eastward from Paramaribo - is indeed at the edge of the bush. Paramaribo is not.
A few months ago two teams trained by me and a colleague have won the first and second prize of team championships for juniors. I have teached them ... the Colle, but only the first 4 or 5 moves.
It is not your beloved Ruy Lopez I find boring, but the Petrov, as you know very well, but chose to ignore not for the first time.
Finally I just wanted to end the debate on the Hippopotamus and the Hanham/Lion.
Will we finally meet within a few weeks? You are invited. Of course I am curious to learn more about your visit, as I already live in this beautiful country for 9 years and hardly are an outsider anymore!
Maybe it will interest you, that Gajadin is the current national champ, after Matoewi had won the title last two years. Maybe it will also interest you, that in the last serious OTB tournament I played, I shared 1st place with Matoewi, Mungroo and Lo Kim Lin and was 3rd in the blitz play off.
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #93 - 06/04/05 at 10:31:50
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Quote:
In reply to an earlier post of TN:
"I wonder Mnb if you devote as much time to your students as you do to this forum"
I give after school lessons three times a week and chess lessons once a week. Then I am a single father of a 10 years old son but have a girl friend, who I visit several times a week.
Life is good at the edge of the bush.

So in Nithiananthan -Wong Meng Leong, 1999, White should have played 9.d5 too. In this line White has the good statistics &#8211; whatever that tells us.
Note, that the Black systems are hardly played by strong GM&#8217;s, with exception of the eccentric Azmai. If I remember well, this was an argument for TopNotch against the KG. His criticism on gambit addicts has a core of truth, but an addiction to play rather cramped systems as the two adviced by TN has even a worse influence on a player&#8217;s development. If one wants to get the maximum out of one&#8217;s potentials, one must both learn to play cramped three row systems and get used to the delicate balance of material versus time and force (Spielmann in Richtig Opfern).
As this post is quite off topic, I will leave the last word to TN.


With the somewhat inplausible explanation that you gave regarding how you manage to spend all of your time here and still have a life, you have not really addressed the crux of my previous post at all, but this is not unusual for you. Grin

To reiterate, if one does not want to study theory, and would prefer rather to stick to pattern thematic play, then there are certain risks that comes with that. To expect the same level of reliabilty from such minor lines is naive, but as I said, The Hippo and Hanham variation via a pirc move order are both eminently playable.

Your harping on King's Gambit references and comparisons are misplaced. First off the Kings Gambit is, well, a gambit, and while it may not be cramped it certainly is not reliable either. But then again you already figured this out already, as you like to say, you play chess only for fun and not results and find the proven systems like the Ruy Lopez etc. boring and too drawish. 

You say you coach chess, but I hope you do not promote this 'Non result oriented play chess only for fun philosophy to your students'. The thing is, chess ceases to be fun if you keep losing all the time, so wanting good results certainly has its place.

I have actually visited Surinam many years ago and was also fortunate to meet relatively recently its Chess Olympiad team of: Matoewi Roger; Mungroo Franklin; Gajadin Dewperkash; Dos Ramos Ricardo; Veer Willem and Lo Kim Lin Frank and I am not sure that they and other Surinameese would take too kindly to an outsider referring to their country as 'the edge of the bush'. 

Top Grin

Postscript: I somehow doubt this will be the last word    
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #92 - 06/04/05 at 09:53:09
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I also think there is a distinction between a += position where Black has straightforward prospects to improve his position to = (as in the Caro-Kann), and a += position where Black is rather more permanently suffering +=  (as in the hippo). The latter type of positions tend to be difficult to play in practice OTB. You need strong nerves, and a single mistake is crushing.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #91 - 06/04/05 at 08:58:23
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In reply to an earlier post of TN:
"I wonder Mnb if you devote as much time to your students as you do to this forum"
I give after school lessons three times a week and chess lessons once a week. Then I am a single father of a 10 years old son but have a girl friend, who I visit several times a week.
Life is good at the edge of the bush.

Magem Badals,J (2515) - Rausis,I (2460) [B07]
FRAchT, 1992
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Pf6 3.Pc3 e5 4.Pge2 Le7 5.f3 0&#8211;0 6.Le3 exd4 7.Dxd4 Pc6 8.Dd2 Pe5 9.Pg3 Le6 10.0&#8211;0&#8211;0 c6 11.f4 Pc4 12.Lxc4 Lxc4 13.Pf5 d5 14.Pxe7+ Dxe7 15.e5 Pd7 16.b3 La6 17.The1 Tfe8 18.Ld4 Tad8 19.f5 Dh4 20.e6 fxe6 21.fxe6 Pf6 22.g3 Dg4 23.Df4 Dxf4+ 24.gxf4 b6 25.f5 Te7 26.Lxf6 gxf6 27.Tg1+ Kh8 28.b4 Lc4 29.Tg3 Tf8 30.b5 cxb5 31.Pxd5 Tg7 32.Txg7 Kxg7 33.Tg1+ Kh6 34.Pc7 Tc8 35.e7 Lf7 36.Pxb5 Tc6 37.Te1 Le8 38.Kd2 Kg5 39.Pd4 Td6 40.c3 Kf4 41.Tg1 Td7 42.Te1 Td5 43.Kc1 Te5 44.Pe6+ Kxf5 45.Pg7+ Kg6 46.Txe5 Kxg7 47.Td5 Kf7 48.Th5 Kg6 49.Td5 Kf7 50.Td8 Kxe7 51.Ta8 a5 52.Ta6 b5 53.Ta7+ Ld7 54.Txa5 Kd6 55.Ta7 h5 56.Kd2 h4 57.Ke3 h3 58.Kd4 Lc6 59.Ta6 f5 60.c4 bxc4 61.Kxc4 f4 62.Kd4 Kc7 63.Txc6+ Kxc6 64.Ke4 1&#8211;0

Rasik,V (2432) - Orsag,M (2387) [B07]
CZEchT 0102 (7), 13.01.2002
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Pf6 3.Pc3 e5 4.Pge2 Le7 5.f3 0&#8211;0 6.Le3 c6 7.Dd2 Pbd7 8.Pg3 b5 9.Pf5 b4 10.Pe2 d5 11.Peg3 dxe4 12.fxe4 exd4 13.Lxd4 c5 14.Dg5 g6 15.Le3 Kh8 16.Pxe7 Dxe7 17.Lb5 De6 18.0&#8211;0 La6 19.Txf6 Pxf6 20.Lxc5 Lxb5 21.Ld4 Kg8 22.Pf5 Tfc8 23.Lxf6 Txc2 24.Pd4 Db6 25.Dxb5 Dxf6 26.Pxc2 Dxb2 27.Dc4 Td8 28.Tf1 1&#8211;0

I know, that Black has done well in this line. But it is remarkable, that in both games won by White a knight was manoeuvred to f5. This gives us a clear clue, how to handle this line. To reinforce this idea, White could consider playing the bishop to g5 and retreat it after h6 to e3.

Nielsen,P (2365) - Jensen,T [B06]
Aarhus Open Aarhus (8), 1991
1.d4 g6 2.e4 Lg7 3.Pc3 d6 4.Le3 b6 5.Dd2 Lb7 6.f3 Pd7 7.0&#8211;0&#8211;0 e6 8.d5 exd5 9.Pxd5 Pe7 10.Lg5 f6 11.Lh6 0&#8211;0 12.Lxg7 Kxg7 13.Pf4 Pc5 14.b4 Dd7 15.bxc5 bxc5 16.Da5 Tfb8 17.Dxc7 Da4 18.Dxe7+ Kh6 19.Pe6 Da3+ 20.Kd2 Db4+ 21.Ke3 Dc3+ 22.Ld3 Tg8 23.Pe2 De5 24.f4 Dh5 25.Dxf6 Tae8 26.Dg5+ Dxg5 27.fxg5+ Kh5 28.P2f4+ 1&#8211;0

So in Nithiananthan -Wong Meng Leong, 1999, White should have played 9.d5 too. In this line White has the good statistics &#8211; whatever that tells us.
Note, that the Black systems are hardly played by strong GM&#8217;s, with exception of the eccentric Azmai. If I remember well, this was an argument for TopNotch against the KG. His criticism on gambit addicts has a core of truth, but an addiction to play rather cramped systems as the two adviced by TN has even a worse influence on a player&#8217;s development. If one wants to get the maximum out of one&#8217;s potentials, one must both learn to play cramped three row systems and get used to the delicate balance of material versus time and force (Spielmann in Richtig Opfern).
As this post is quite off topic, I will leave the last word to TN.


  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #90 - 06/03/05 at 13:32:07
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I'm not really a fan of Qd8 either to be honest but cant black follow Adams example and play 9...Nbd7 instead of Bb4?
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #89 - 06/02/05 at 21:30:29
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Yes Mr. X you are referring to the right line  Grin

I will give some thought to some kind of thread showing the way against the Scandanavian, but you are instincts are correct in that I really do not want to give too much away at this stage.

Thanks for bringing the Tiviakov article to my attention, as I was not aware that the Bd2, Nd5 and Nxf6 plan was also promising against 6...Bg4 as well.

I am also a bit surprised that none of the 'Scandanavanites' here thus far have plugged: 

1.e4 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8?! [This seems particularly popular in online blitz] 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Ne5 e6 8.g4! Bg6 9.h4 Bb4 

IM Andrew Martin in one of his Chesspublishing Updates seems to suggest that Black maybe ok in the above position. However I think that after 10.f3! Black is probably just dead lost.

So what say you Scandanavian hounds?

Top  Grin
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #88 - 06/02/05 at 02:00:47
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I think this horse became a unicorn, grew wings, and flew into the clouds.

Maybe we should start a new thread like "Busting the Scandinavian" to get at the heart of the issue and talk about concrete variations.  As the discussion continues in this way, we will have club players coming out of the wood work talking about their win over the local club expert.  Many club players do well with this opening, simply because their opponents are not well prepared to meet it. 

Tiviakov recently wrote a nice article in the last NIC Yearkbook (74) about about the line

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bg4

and concluded that Black was having great difficulties against a simple plan for White (Bd2, Nd5, Nxf6, Bb3, Qe2, and O-O-O).  In fact, the title of the artice is "A Series of Simple Moves Suffices."

As Tiviakov mentions in his conclusions, this plan is also very effective against 6...Bf5.  The game Shirov-Salov 1997, that TopNotch refers to, uses this same plan.  

TopNotch has dropped a few hints on how he likes to meet the Scandinavian.  I think he mentioned that he likes to meet the move order with 4...c6 and 5...Bf5 by

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 c6 5.Bc4 Bf5 6.Bd2 e6 7.g4

which is a very aggressive possibility.  Correct me if I am referring to the wrong line.

Maybe TopNotch will start a thread on this of his own?  Though I can understand if he doesn't want to give too much away.   Smiley
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #87 - 06/01/05 at 17:49:16
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Looks like the horse refuses to be put down Grin

In any case I suspect that title of this thread is misleading, as the author of it was not really interested in 1.e4 with least theory at all, but rather was looking for an endorsement of the Scandanavian.

Well here is my opinion of the risky Scandanavian/Center Counter defence, its certainly playable and amount of theory to assimilate not withstanding, its a good second string/surprise weapon but a lousy main weapon. Hey, but that's just me.

So there you have it, nicely catalogued and categorised.

Top  Grin
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #86 - 06/01/05 at 11:27:32
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I know this horse needs to be put down ASAP, but still... this discussion concerns the roots of chess- how to choose openings, how to improve and such, let me clarify a few things: 

An 1800 (like me  Grin) facing a well prepared 2200, will have to fight like a tiger, squirm like a snake, dance like a butterfly and sting like a hyperactive bee to get out of the opening with good winning\drawing chances. 
You will have to think hard to find one-movers on the board, thats life. 

But many people here are trying to  make the scandi non-legit, which makes me pissed. Even with what ive said earlier, in all my games playing ....d5 as black i never got to a position where white had a decisive advantage, not even against masters. sometimes a large advantage, never decisive. And ive got = or += against many u2000. 

But maybe people dont understand, you cant learn the scandi once then play it from your sleep. you need to take time to understand both sides ideas, and to make corrections. But unlike the caro, here you create the theory, and thats fun. 
Even if you play ...a6 theres no theory, but its legit- you just need to understand the ideas.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #85 - 05/29/05 at 18:14:35
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I suggest we keep our disagreements to chess and not engage in personal sniping, which is counter-productive and only hurts the quality of the forum.    Frankly, this kind of antagonism is annoying.  Angry

I'm pretty sure that White doesn't blunder a pawn in the KG, and I'm also pretty sure that the Hippo or the Philidor are plausible suggestions.  The Caro, Rubinstein French, and Scandinavian all have their merits.

Dead horse: flogged.  Let it go...

  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #84 - 05/29/05 at 17:19:48
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The Openings were suggested to fit the criteria of this thread.  Grin

I did not claim that they were the second coming, just an interesting way to avoid masses of theory. The setup you offered with Nge2 and f3 are both fine, and may give White a slight edge. Big deal, I never disputed white gaining a slight edge in such irregular lines, as we all know escaping theory comes at a price, however if black continues to play thematically he should be ok. I offer two games to illustrate the point:    

[Event "FIDE-Wch k.o."]
[Site "Tripoli"]
[Date "2004.06.19"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Mahjoob,Morteza"]
[Black "Azmaiparashvili,Zurab"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B07"]
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nge2 Be7 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 exd4 7.Nxd4 d5 8.e5 Nfd7 9.f4 Nb6 10.Nb3 c6 11.Bd3 N8d7 12.Qf3 a5 13.a4 Bb4 14.Qf2 Nc4 15.Bxc4 dxc4 16.Nd2 Qe7 17.0-0 f6 18.Nxc4 fxe5 19.f5 Nf6 20.Qg3 Nh5 21.Qxe5 Qxe5 22.Nxe5 Bxf5 23.Nd3 Bxd3 24.cxd3 Nf6 25.Rad1 Rad8 0-1

[Event "Cairnhill op"]
[Site "Singapore"]
[Date "1999.12.08"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Nithiananthan,J"]
[Black "Wong Meng Leong"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B00"]
1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 d6 6.0-0-0 Nd7 7.f3 a6 8.g4 e6 9.h4 h5 10.g5 Ne7 11.Nge2 0-0 12.Ng3 d5 13.Be2 c5 14.f4 dxe4 15.dxc5 Nxc5 16.Qe1 Qc7 17.Bxh5 Rac8 18.Rh2 Nf5 19.Bg4 b5 20.Bxf5 exf5 21.a3 Ne6 22.Nge2 a5 23.Rd2 b4 24.Nb5 Qc4 
25.Nd6 Qa2 26.Kd1 Qb1+ 27.Nc1 Bxb2 0-1

The difference between the above lines and the Kings Gambit is that the former doesn't 'blunder' a pawn. I have a bit more respect for my pawns, especially the Center ones.

I wonder Mnb if you devote as much time to your students as you do to this forum, as with well over 1000 post it seems like you live here.

Top Grin  


« Last Edit: 05/29/05 at 21:00:57 by TopNotch »  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #83 - 05/29/05 at 16:08:40
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Against the Hippo I would play my beloved Argentinian setup: Be3, Qd2, Nc3, o-o-o, eventually f3.
Against the Lion I would play 4.Nge2, not minding a transposition to the Philidor. Again the recipe Be3, Qd2, o-o-o, eventually f3 looks like a good idea.
But no, I will not claim a forced win for White.
Not that I want to discourage TopNotch playing his eccentric openings, but it amazes me a bit, that he playes this stuff and still has a lot against the KG. The latter is based on a much sounder strategical idea...
I repeat my opinion, that on the long run all decent defences against 1.e4, 1.d4, 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 require a lot of work. There is not something like a miracle cure.
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #82 - 05/28/05 at 17:57:52
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I didn't trade off soundness for least theory  Grin

Ok, maybe 1...a6 is a bit Ropey, but the Lion/ Hanham Variation seems playable and you don't need to know much theory to play it. Here it is:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5!?

Now here is your challenge, show me how White gets a big advantage against the above. To my knowledge he can at best secure a slight edge.

Now for the Hippo:

1.e4 b6 [This is probably the best way to enter it] 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.0-0 d6 6.c3 e6 7.Bg5 Ne7 8.Nbd2 Nd7. This is the basic layout of the Hippo, which you can do against just about anything.

The two setups outlined above seem to fit the criteria as layed out by Roger 3 much better than anything suggested so far.

Neither the Lion or Hippo is unsound, only unusual and a little eccentric. 

Can anyone here demonstrate how White can attain more than a slight edge against the above lines, I doubt you can. In fact both of the above lines I occassionally use as surprise weapons as the need arises, and the Hippo in particular canbe deadly in a must win situation.

Comments?

Top Grin
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #81 - 05/28/05 at 16:32:48
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"We're starting to flog a dead horse here, so it's high time I joined in."

LOL

ditto  Smiley

Wait a second, I can't even find the horse through the mob!
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #80 - 05/28/05 at 14:04:16
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We're starting to flog a dead horse here, so it's high time I joined in.  What we're talking about here is finding openings with simple themes and plans.  It's impossible to avoid all preparation, but I'd be inclined to throw in a plug for the Caro.  Black starts by setting up a sound pawn structure and then looks for the opportunity to bash forward with ... c5.

At the same time, looking for a quick and easy line to play against 1 e4 seems counter-intuitive on two counts.  Surely any player needs to limit his/her selection to openings that fit his/her style.  There is no earthly point lashing out with something easy if the middlegame is a mystery and unappealing.  Secondly, looking for a quick, easy, and untheoretical opening doesn't sound very interesting.  I appreciate that we all have time constraints outside of chess, but maybe slowing down the amount of play and spending a little more time in the war room before returning to league or tournament play might prove more rewarding...
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #79 - 05/28/05 at 11:59:21
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[quote author=lnn2 link=board=1e4;num=1116141665;start=60#77 date=05/28/05 at 11:54:30
Pray tell what are the "ultra sharp lines" which the "well-prepared" white player can lure black into, which black cannot find an early, but tactically bulletproof, deviation against? I have already posted on black's options in the c-k earlier.
[/quote]

read mnbs post above inn2. lines of the advance involving 4Nc3 or 4h4 can also become quite sharp of course black can deviate with 3...c5 but there is a fair amount of theory acculumating in this line too. 
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #78 - 05/28/05 at 11:55:44
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Quote:

Neither was the question by Roger3 which has more theory, Scandanavian or Caro-Kann. Grin


i think you'll find if you go back and read the original question that least theory was a central part of his criteria topnotch. 
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #77 - 05/28/05 at 10:54:30
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Quote:


geoff your points are well made and i agree with much of what you say but with regard to the above quote surely the more pertinent fact is that with opponents above a certain levely you will start to come under a lot of pressure in any opening unless you are very well prepared. 


Both Geof and Tracke make excellent points, and express my sentiments perfectly. you should read their posts again, instead of being "guided by voices".  Wink It's a fact that you will NOT walk into a forced loss in the c-k/rubinstein french even if you are not so well-prepared (unlike the scandi)! Mainly because Black has solid early deviations, which although not objectively sufficeint for equality, at least give black a solid game to outplay the opponent, instead of signing the score sheets before 20 moves!

Quote:


A 2200 player faced with learning either the Caro Kann or the Scandinavian completely from scratch will find that there is far more work involved in learning the Caro Kann than the Scandinavian. That is a simple fact. The amount of theory in the Caro Kann is staggering and there are plenty of ultra sharp lines which the well prepared white player can try to lure black into.



Pray tell what are the "ultra sharp lines" which the "well-prepared" white player can lure black into, which black cannot find an early, but tactically bulletproof, deviation against? I have already posted on black's options in the c-k earlier.

Quote:


This is not to say that the Scandinavian is objectively better than the Caro Kann (of course its not) but the question posed by roger3 at the outset wasnt about which opening is objectively best. 


This was never the main issue. But objective merits of the opening must be considered. Otherwise, like Tracke said, 1... g5 is a perfect choice! Topnotch's suggestions trade off soundness for even less theory, but imho a balance tilted slightly too much to the "dubious" category. Smiley
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #76 - 05/28/05 at 10:35:44
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Quote:
This is not to say that the Scandinavian is objectively better than the Caro Kann (of course its not) but the question posed by roger3 at the outset wasnt about which opening is objectively best.  


Neither was the question by Roger3 which has more theory, Scandanavian or Caro-Kann. Grin

In fact both the Scandanavian and Caro have lots of theory attached to them, so that one has a liitle more than the other is irrelevant, since neither fit the bill anyway.

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #75 - 05/28/05 at 09:56:58
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Quote:

(i)   With opponents above a certain level, you will      start to come under pressure in a number of lines in the Scandi unless you are quite well-prepared,


geoff your points are well made and i agree with much of what you say but with regard to the above quote surely the more pertinent fact is that with opponents above a certain levely you will start to come under a lot of pressure in any opening unless you are very well prepared. 

A 2200 player faced with learning either the Caro Kann or the Scandinavian completely from scratch will find that there is far more work involved in learning the Caro Kann than the Scandinavian. That is a simple fact. The amount of theory in the Caro Kann is staggering and there are plenty of ultra sharp lines which the well prepared white player can try to lure black into.

This is not to say that the Scandinavian is objectively better than the Caro Kann (of course its not) but the question posed by roger3 at the outset wasnt about which opening is objectively best.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #74 - 05/27/05 at 21:26:48
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This is an interesting thread.  I have nothing really new to add but I am going to offer a little additional support to Inn2's and Tracke's perspectives.

I think part of Inn2 and Tracke's point is that in the Scandinavian there are numerous sharp attacking lines for White in which Black may objectively have a playable game, but he is living rather close to the edge and, consequently, needs to know what he is doing.  Moreover, the theory in some critical and sharp lines of the Scandi seems to be in a state of flux at the moment.

The Scandi may be the perfect opening for a player of certain strength playing others of a certain strength to learn with minimal effort (particularly the ...Qxd5, ...Qa5, ...Nf6, ...c6, ...Bf5 lines).  Except for lines where White delays c2-c4, the set-up is almost universal, it is rather solid albeit provocative (all that shunting about with the Q!), and if White is not prepared and plays passively Black can get a nice position by playing fairly automatic moves. 

However, I agree with Tracke and Inn2 that against opponents above a certain level who are prepared for the Scandi and strong enough to punish a bad opening on a fairly regular basis, you may actually need to know more theory in the Scandi to survive the opening and get a playable position than in the Caro-Kann.  In a line like the ...Qxd5 Scandi, where Black gives up some development from the start and doesn't place a great deal of immediate pressure on White's center, White can choose from a number of promising set-ups where Black, in order to defend, may have to know some "only moves" to survive against a well-prepared opponent.  Mistakes in the Scandi caused by ignorance of theory or of recent games can, in a number of sharp variations, be almost instantly fatal.  So, against a prepared opponent who chooses an aggressive line, the Scandi player is walking a bit of a tightrope between = (or, more probably, +=) positions and +-  (I mean + over - here but don't know how to do the symbol) positions, and in such situations knowing the theory becomes rather critical.

In the absolute mainline of the Caro-Kann with ...Bf5, Black gets a similar solid set-up with the ...e6 and ...c6 pawns, but he hasn't given up development with the ...Qxd5 and ...Qa5 maneuver as in the ...Qxd5 Scandi, and as a result he is less vulnerable to quick and forceful attacks in most lines.  Also, much of the theory in the Caro-Kann is what might be called "grandmaster theory": largely concerned with the struggle by White to get a += position and the struggle by Black to get an = one.  It often takes a lot of positional understanding and technique to win such positions as White even when Black makes mistakes.  So while the theoretical baggage associated with the Caro-Kann is large and  certainly useful to know, IMO a large part of this theory is not absolutely critical to Black's survival or even his ability to get a playable game, even against a  relatively strong and prepared opponent of 2100 or even 2200 elo.   

Another way to look at this is with a solid pawn structure, Black can usually get away with several non-developing or counter-intuitive moves without encountering fatal problems.  But in the ...Qxd5 Scandi you play those moves right away (...Qxd5!? and ...Qa5 or ...Qd6), whereas in the Caro-Kann you keep those moves in reserve.  (This is a gross oversimplification, of course, but I believe there is an element of truth in this, particularly when considered in the context of White's sharper tries.)

Of course there are sharp lines in the Advance Variation of the Caro-Kann, the Fantasy Variation, the Panov-Botvinnik attack, etc., but in each of these variations Black has solid options where he maintains parity or near-parity in development, and Black can often survive simply by playing natural, logical moves.  Even in subvariations where some knowledge of theory is critical, my impression is that the range of immediately threatening set-ups for White is relatively narrow.

In fairness, my statements above may exagerrate the size of the difference in "safety" levels between the Scandi and the Caro-Kann a bit in order to make my point, but I do believe that this difference exists, and that it has an effect on the amount of theory you need to know against opponents above a certain level.  Below that level, you may do just as well or better with the Scandi than the Caro-Kann.  If you aren't likely to face 2100-2200+ elo players very often, or you don't particularly mind losing to players in that range, then perhaps the Scandi is a good opening for you.  (I happen to agree with John Cox that the Alekhine is also not a bad choice given such conditions, because if you limit yourself to the solidest lines for Black there is surprisingly little theory that you really need to know unless you are facing a very well-prepared opponent.)  But I take Inn2's and Tracke's point to be two-fold:

(i)   With opponents above a certain level, you will      start to come under pressure in a number of lines in the Scandi unless you are quite well-prepared, and because the theory of a number of sharp variations is still in flux, you will not only have to learn a substantial amount of critical theory to survive in these lines, you will also need to keep up with developments.  These points may also be true of the Caro-Kann, but to a lesser extent.

(ii)   If your goals in chess are relatively ambitious but you still want to learn modest amount of theory at this point, you are better off learning a solid and completely sound opening like the Caro, rather than a somewhat riskier opening like the Scandi.  The Caro will always be playable at any level, you can choose between various sound lines, and you can build on your knowledge forever.  Because it is intrinsically less risky and provocative than the Scandi, there is also more scope for experimentation in many variations of the Caro-Kann, where a slightly inferior move is more likely to lead to a small disadvantage rather than cause serious problems.



     
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #73 - 05/27/05 at 19:57:34
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I still say Lion, Hippo or 1...a6

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #72 - 05/27/05 at 12:06:54
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i agree with you about the caro kann mnb but i rather think the first poster was asking with which opening can one get a reasonably playable position against 1e4 while at the same time keeping theory to a minimum. I guess theres no opening now that can be played without at least knowing some rudimentary theory. my fellow countryman the king's example seems to suggest that the scandinavian may fit the bill. i know it wouldnt be to everyones taste, but someone wanting a cure all for 1e4 without necessarily committing themselves to learning masses of theory could do a lot worse.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #71 - 05/27/05 at 09:01:26
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I wonder what defence against 1.e4 is playable without knowing theory? The Caro-Kann certainly not. There are several sharp lines - eg the Von Hennig-Milner Gambit with the Alchemy Attack - which Black should rather know.
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #70 - 05/27/05 at 07:18:06
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Surely below a certain level it doesn't matter what you play... if both sides are 1200, either will surely make a blunder that will decide the game. But assuming both sides are reasonably strong club players (or aspiring to be one!) , ie. fide elo>2100 playing in an international open etc, then the scandi is too risky with no theory. 

About the Alekhine, I've had Mr. John Cox's book for several weeks now, and as fantastic as the book is, it cannot convince me to just play it OTB "like that" after several  hours of reading that book and practice blitz games. Perhaps that well-known statement about the Alekhine is true (did Davies or Cox say it??): the Alekhine scores very well for specialists, but occasional users don't fare well with it.  Undecided
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #69 - 05/27/05 at 05:50:19
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I think John Cox's point 'it really depends what level of play one is considering and in what sort of environment' is an important one.  To use myself as an example. I took up the ...Qa5 Scandinavian about 1.5 years ago after playing the Sicilian Kan for about 4 years previously.

I played it 12 times in local leagues and tournaments since then.  I won three drew eight and lost one (to a local fide master rated 2360).  My rating is 1700 and most of opponents (apart from the above mentioned fide master) were between 1500 and 1900 - on average probably a bit higher then me.

I found none of my opponents played critical lines, and I mostly had comfortable equality from the opening.  All the games were weekend tournaments or local league matchs so none of my opponents would have been able to prepare for me in advance.

The only preparation I had was a couple of viewings of Andrew Martin's DVD - The Scheming Scandinavian.  I didn't memorise any variations but just had a vague idea of trying to use a white square strategy.

The point is that this was enough at my level and the environment I play in.  You could say I was lucky that no one played the critical lines, and you may be right, but the fact is that this has been my best scoring defence to 1.e4 ever.
  
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Reply #68 - 05/27/05 at 05:22:39
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Alekhine calls for more knowledge... i simply play 2.Nc3 as white... dont want to go wrong against a prepared player. 

Though id say its the best opening against a "Smashing opponent", ie some guy who thinks he can smash you in 10 moves.... they can really destroy themselves in alekhine positions as white....
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #67 - 05/26/05 at 17:03:57
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Quote:

I'm pretty sure that's not what tracke meant,


well maybe you should read what he said again...

Nearly all master players, most expert players and even many clubplayers have enough attacking skills to destroy Black after some preparation, without giving Black any chance for defending or counterattack

it sure sounds to me like he is saying it's busted.       john coxs point about the alekhine is interesting though. can black really hope to hold everything together with just that amount of knowledge? if so then the elusive answer to roger3's question might have arrived!
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #66 - 05/26/05 at 16:54:12
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Returning to the original question; it really depends what level of play one is considering and in what sort of environment: I know some local leagues where knowing the first five moves of the Sicilian Dragon makes you a theoretical guru.

At the risk of plugging myself, the Alekhine can be played with very little theoretical knowledge. If they go 4 Nf3, go dxe5 5 Nxe5 c6, then Bf5 and Nd7. If they play the Exchange, go ...exd6, Be7/Bg4/00/Nc6/Bf6. If they play the Four Pawns, go 6..c5 7 d5 g6 and see what happens. I'm not saying it'll work against a GM, but in chess below 2100 level you'll do fine (if the opening suits you) knowing more or less nothing beyond what I've just said.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #65 - 05/26/05 at 16:37:35
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Quote:
Speaking of strong opposition...
Last tuesday i was black against a 2170 opponent (Im 1770). the guy knew i was playing scandi, and also knew i play 4...e5 after 4.d4, so heres the opening:

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.d4 Bg4 6.h3 
Bh5 7.g4 (wasn't expecting this...) 7...Bg6 8.Ne5 c6 9.Bg2 e6 10.0-0. I ended up losing the game, only to later find out Australian GM Rogers used to play it on the black side. 

Now you might say "see, here you were busted by a strong player" but in fact i played theory without knowing i was, and lost due to mistakes in the middlegame. White has pressure, but black has a lotta tricks up his sleeve.

Kinda illustrates the point, this is quite an old variation iirc Karpov walked over Rogers in 1983 in this variation. I played through that game in an old "learn chess" book years ago as an illustration on how to use a space advantage.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #64 - 05/26/05 at 16:18:10
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gee tracke from your quote above it would seem like the Scandinavian is completely busted. you might want to keep that one to yourself so that next time a GM is foolish enough to play it against you, you can crush him in 30 moves without giving him any chance for defending or counterattack  Smiley

I'm pretty sure that's not what tracke meant, I believe he rather meant that in the Scandinavian white can learn extremely dangerous attacking ideas and reproduce them over-the-board without investing all that much time. If then black does not know exactly how to react, he does often lose without ever getting anything resembling counter-play. And of course I'm still waiting for a GM to offer to play the black side of the Wahls-Scandinavian against me...  Wink
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #63 - 05/26/05 at 14:49:46
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Speaking of strong opposition...
Last tuesday i was black against a 2170 opponent (Im 1770). the guy knew i was playing scandi, and also knew i play 4...e5 after 4.d4, so heres the opening:

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.d4 Bg4 6.h3 
Bh5 7.g4 (wasn't expecting this...) 7...Bg6 8.Ne5 c6 9.Bg2 e6 10.0-0. I ended up losing the game, only to later find out Australian GM Rogers used to play it on the black side. 

Now you might say "see, here you were busted by a strong player" but in fact i played theory without knowing i was, and lost due to mistakes in the middlegame. White has pressure, but black has a lotta tricks up his sleeve.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #62 - 05/24/05 at 18:58:41
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The scandi isn't 100% busted. More like it is under pressure from so many directions, it is too time-consuming to repair it every month. Its not even like the Sicilian, where the compensation for studying theory is you get chances to checkmate White!! Here you study so many tactical lines only to reach "boring" equality....Undecided 

As someone who plays the c-k (and I imagine Tracke as well), the scandinavian is of course appealing because it reaches the same type of pawn structure! I would dearly love to make the scandinavian my main weapon, but it is too difficult. 

In this sense, the scandinavian is somewhat like the Pirc (but perhaps worse!?): White has too many nice lines, all of which demand careful prep from black.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #61 - 05/24/05 at 16:32:26
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You mean the Scandanavian isn't busted?  Grin
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #60 - 05/24/05 at 15:16:08
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2. I did not contradict myself in the above post. Maybe my explanation was too short!? - The point is that in nearly all Scandi lines it doesn´t take a GM on the white side to reproduce a win along the promising lines shown in GM games. Nearly all master players, most expert players and even many clubplayers have enough attacking skills to destroy Black after some preparation, without giving Black any chance for defending or counterattack. White´s attacking lines in the Scandi are direct, clear and easy to learn!


gee tracke from your quote above it would seem like the Scandinavian is completely busted. you might want to keep that one to yourself so that next time a GM is foolish enough to play it against you, you can crush him in 30 moves without giving him any chance for defending or counterattack  Smiley
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #59 - 05/23/05 at 21:33:30
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no offence tracke but maybe it is you who has missed the point. the question that robert3 asked was .... 

"What is the opening vs. e4, that you can play with nearly always the same setup and the same position, with least theory just from your feeling, right away?" 

to me that seems to ask what opening can be played that involves learning a minimum of theory and that can be played just from a general knowledge of the opening plans rather than a memorisation of theory.


Exactly my point, and based on this criteria: The Lion, The Hippo and 1...a6 fits the bill best of all. The Scandanavian, French or Caro-Kann certainly do not.

How about being guided by my voice for a change  Wink

Top  Grin
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #58 - 05/23/05 at 17:31:12
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Sorry, guidedbyvoices, I´m still sure that it is you who has missed the point!

1. Certainly it´s no mistake to presuppose some interest (by Roger3) in solidity and correctness, otherwise we could suggest any scheme.

2. I did not contradict myself in the above post. Maybe my explanation was too short!? - The point is that in nearly all Scandi lines it doesn´t take a GM on the white side to reproduce a win along the promising lines shown in GM games. Nearly all master players, most expert players and even many clubplayers have enough attacking skills to destroy Black after some preparation, without giving Black any chance for defending or counterattack. White´s attacking lines in the Scandi are direct, clear and easy to learn!

3. To cut down the memorisation of theory shouldn´t mean to play always the same moves in similiar positions. Exactly this is absolute impossible in the Scandi as the lines are very concrete from move 4 on! Often there are several "system moves" but only one move (one specific move order) shows some resistance to White´s attack, the second best is already loosing by force. On club/expert level that combination is sometimes difficult to find over the board: for White (who must be prepared) and also for Black (who will be punished if he really plays by general considerations). For example, if Black intends to play Qa5/c6/Bf5 lines, he must react totally differently to different white setups like Nf3/Bc4 or Bc4/Bd2/Qe2 or Bc4/Nge2 or Bc4/Bd2/Qf3 or Nf3/Ne5 ... And so Black has to do much homework in each single subvariation (deep &concrete analysis) to make his lines "playable"!

Maybe we won´t come to the same opinion, guidedbyvoices, but maybe roger3 takes some advice before he makes bad experiences with the Scandi ?!

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #57 - 05/23/05 at 15:48:59
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Hello guidedbyvoices,

I think you didn´t get the point of Inn2´s words. Maybe you even didn´t get the point of this thread. 

We´re not searching for an answer to 1.e4 with least theory (of course the Caro has more than the Scandi) but for one with least work for an advanced clubplayer with a generally already developed understanding (~1700-2000?) who cannot spend much time for opening preparation (business, family) but don´t want to disclaim a certain solidity of his repertoire (otherwise 1...g5 would be a good choice).

If someone starts out with a "small" Caro-Kann rep or with French Rubinstein he´ll need (let´s say) 50 hours to study the necessary lines, most of them by model games. But then he has a solid defence for live and 1-2 hours a month will be enough to keep uptodate with some fresh ideas. White´s novelties? Mostly harmless!

Looking at the Scandi it´s not the same. Maybe at the start you can get away with less hours. But later you´ll have to pay, you must work more than 10 hours a month simply to repair your tactical lines. Even at clublevel white players will stop to play rather slow or to overextend, by time they´ll serve real problems! You´ll can deal with this with risky adhoc-solutions or by switching to annother subvariation. Look at history: 30 years ago Black played 3...Qa5/5...Bf5 without reasonable results. Then came 3...Qa5/5...Bg4 but after some years this was more or less defeated. 3...Qa5/5...Nc6 was crushed, too. Ok, back to Bf5-structures: first by Nf6/c6/Bf5/e6 move order, later by c6/Bf5/e6/(Nf6) as advocated by Wahls. But enthusiasm has gone, most protagonists (Wahls, Cu.Hansen, Rogers) stopped playing these lines. Now 3...Qd6 is the great hit. But even there several critical lines has evolved now and it´s the big time for 3...Qa5/5...Ne4 ? - Don´t be a fool! Black is working and doing and working. He has some good results in single games but nothing on the long run despite much work!

tracke Smiley

PS
I think that 1e4 e5 gives some possibilities for a small repertoire, too. For example the Petroff with 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d4 Be7 6.Bd3 Nf6. Black has to learn some lines against KG, Urusov, Danish, Vienna etc. but he can do this one time and then never again.

PPS
To be guided by voices is a strange epistemic program


no offence tracke but maybe it is you who has missed the point. the question that robert3 asked was .... 

"What is the opening vs. e4, that you can play with nearly always the same setup and the same position, with least theory just from your feeling, right away?" 

to me that seems to ask what opening can be played that involves learning a minimum of theory and that can be played just from a general knowledge of the opening plans rather than a memorisation of theory. the scandinavian fits the criteria for this much better than the caro-kann. the type of game black finds himself in when he plays the caro kann can vary widely depending on whites response, in the scandinavian this doesnt happen to the same extent.
 
you also contradict yourself in the above post by claiming the Caro is an ideal choice for a club player but the Scandinavian isnt because its not popular at super-GM level. what nonsense!   

I agree with Willempie to an extent about the Rubinstein French and it is another good candidate for Robert3's criteria but it is somewhat predictable after a while. At least in the Scandinavian black can switch between 3..Qa5, 3..Qd8, 3..Qd6 and 2..Nf6 as takes his fancy. 

PS if you want to learn more about Guided By Voices tracke, try checking out Matador records back catalogue  Wink
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #56 - 05/23/05 at 05:46:35
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And using statistics is? Using those makes one wonder why the Evans gambit isnt played every time.

My main point for the Rubinstein french is that though passive, you dont have to learn much theory and keeping up with theory would hardly be a major task as Tracke quite well explains. Furthermore later when you want to play something more challenging (say the Winawer) it is easy to expand your repertoire without throwing away your previous work (you can keep it against the Tarrasch for the time being for example).

BtW I am not saying the scandinavian is an inferior opening, just that you have to do much more work (in opening preparation) to reach equality especially when you get to play opponents who know you play the scandi. To put it from a white perspective. I always have trouble getting a position I like against the Rubinstein and the Caro, but when I get confronted by a scandinavian I never have that problem. It probably is because with the former, black keeps developing in a solid setup, while with the scandi you sacrifice time (queen has to move again) and try to develop a bit more active, which gives white more opportunities.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #55 - 05/23/05 at 05:07:29
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Which is of course why a player like Anand has only played one scandinavian (and lost against Kasparov) and quite a bit more Rubinsteins and CK's.


which is really no good comparison, as we all know that the secundants of the Top-10 are half of their life occupied in finding some lines where their bosses can enjoy a forced draw and for this purpose the CK and French-Rubinstein might be perfect
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #54 - 05/23/05 at 04:17:52
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for what cutting down theory if you are running into bad variations?
the Rubinstein-French: 44 % white / 37 % draw / 19 % black

same could be said for the Caro with the only difference that in the CK you can find yourself easily in a variation where black wins only 14 or 15 %.

Which is of course why a player like Anand has only played one scandinavian (and lost against Kasparov) and quite a bit more Rubinsteins and CK's.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #53 - 05/23/05 at 02:38:29
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To Roger3 : if it is only the 'Fritz Bind'-position which is scaring you off, the problem can be handled with a simple peek into NewInChess Yearbook 73...
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #52 - 05/23/05 at 01:10:31
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for what cutting down theory if you are running into bad variations?
the Rubinstein-French: 44 % white / 37 % draw / 19 % black

same could be said for the Caro with the only difference that in the CK you can find yourself easily in a variation where black wins only 14 or 15 %.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #51 - 05/23/05 at 00:21:08
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Hello guidedbyvoices,

I think you didn´t get the point of Inn2´s words. Maybe you even didn´t get the point of this thread. 

We´re not searching for an answer to 1.e4 with least theory (of course the Caro has more than the Scandi) but for one with least work for an advanced clubplayer with a generally already developed understanding (~1700-2000?) who cannot spend much time for opening preparation (business, family) but don´t want to disclaim a certain solidity of his repertoire (otherwise 1...g5 would be a good choice).

If someone starts out with a "small" Caro-Kann rep or with French Rubinstein he´ll need (let´s say) 50 hours to study the necessary lines, most of them by model games. But then he has a solid defence for live and 1-2 hours a month will be enough to keep uptodate with some fresh ideas. White´s novelties? Mostly harmless!

Looking at the Scandi it´s not the same. Maybe at the start you can get away with less hours. But later you´ll have to pay, you must work more than 10 hours a month simply to repair your tactical lines. Even at clublevel white players will stop to play rather slow or to overextend, by time they´ll serve real problems! You´ll can deal with this with risky adhoc-solutions or by switching to annother subvariation. Look at history: 30 years ago Black played 3...Qa5/5...Bf5 without reasonable results. Then came 3...Qa5/5...Bg4 but after some years this was more or less defeated. 3...Qa5/5...Nc6 was crushed, too. Ok, back to Bf5-structures: first by Nf6/c6/Bf5/e6 move order, later by c6/Bf5/e6/(Nf6) as advocated by Wahls. But enthusiasm has gone, most protagonists (Wahls, Cu.Hansen, Rogers) stopped playing these lines. Now 3...Qd6 is the great hit. But even there several critical lines has evolved now and it´s the big time for 3...Qa5/5...Ne4 ? - Don´t be a fool! Black is working and doing and working. He has some good results in single games but nothing on the long run despite much work!

tracke Smiley

PS
I think that 1e4 e5 gives some possibilities for a small repertoire, too. For example the Petroff with 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d4 Be7 6.Bd3 Nf6. Black has to learn some lines against KG, Urusov, Danish, Vienna etc. but he can do this one time and then never again.

PPS
To be guided by voices is a strange epistemic program
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #50 - 05/22/05 at 17:46:51
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I totally agree with Scipio_Rex's and Willempie's comments on how to learn a new opening.  I made similar comments in a separate thread (http://altmax.com/cgi-local/cpf/YaBB.cgi?board=1e4;action=display;num=1116512229).
Willempie, you say that approach works better for some openings than for others.  Could you give some examples of openings for which it works and for which it doesn't? ???
Thanks

I'll try and give some examples, but keep in mind I am mainly playing against 1700-1900 players with some 2000+ers (3 or 4)
What has worked for me until now (not that I won every game):
Black: Some French variations which I hadnt played before (classical), the Caro-Kann, a6 and Bc5 in the Spanish, dragon and scheveningen setup, KI and Nimzo
White: Closed spanish, Bg5 Najdorf, Be2 systems vs the sic, the scandinavian and I have to admit to have played a couple of Slav games (against one opponent who spends a week preparing against an expected e4)
What didnt work very well:
Black: Benko, Grunfeld, Najdorf and svesjnikow, French with Nf6 and Bb4.
White: Bc4 in the sicilian, dutch (against the slav player), some mega-agressive anti Pirc system with f3 g4 and h4.

In general I can say that for me open games are easier to handle when there is one central pawn exchanged and that I play well when I have a slight initiative (such as the spanish) or a clear plan (such as the caro), but not when it gets very sharp (Bc4 sic) and/or when I am not very familiar with different plans (Grunfeld).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #49 - 05/22/05 at 10:36:29
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aha! I knew the 3... Qd6 argument was coming. So perhaps you are indirectly admitting, that in the 3... Qa5 lines at least, Black needs to know more theory than in the c-k    Cheesy 


i give up. if you really believe that 3...Qa5 has more theory than the entire Caro Kann then theres really no point continuing the discussion.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #48 - 05/22/05 at 07:42:46
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aha! I knew the 3... Qd6 argument was coming. So perhaps you are indirectly admitting, that in the 3... Qa5 lines at least, Black needs to know more theory than in the c-k    Cheesy 

About 3... Qd6, lets just say, for now, 3... Qd6 has not stood the test of time, the pedigree of which is inferior to most of the c-k lines I have recommended. 

lets just agree to disagree. But in the first place, I never maintained the c-k has "least" theory. ???
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #47 - 05/22/05 at 07:06:11
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There is a difference between whether you *need* to learn the theory to survive, as in the scandinavian, or whether you just need to know the first few moves of the opening and can make it up OTB as you go along, as in the c-k or rubinstein french.

Regarding the caro, I believe you don't have to study much playing against the fantasy (3... e6, b6/Ba6/Bb4), two knights (3... Bg4), advance (3... c5). The combined work-load of these different lines is less than the scandinavian. Grin

In the scandi, you MUST learn all the main-lines if you want to emerge with anything resembling a playable position.    


i dont want to keep carping on the same point inn2, and maybe we will just have to agree to disagree but i dont see any sense in what you are saying. how can you possibly argue that the caro kann a)minimises the amount of theory to be learned b)reaches similar setups and positions most of the time. entire opening encyclopaedias could be written on the caro kann alone! 
you mention that in the Scandinavian black must learn all the main lines to emerge with a playable position. thats true of most openings if playing against a strong player {even your beloved Caro Kann  Wink }. the point is that in the Scandinavian after 3Nc3 black can specialise in say 3...Qd6 and study in depth the lines stemming from this. Apart from 3Nc3 whites other choice is a setup involving Nf3, d4,c4 which isnt particularly scary for Black. Are you really trying to argue that there is less theory in the Caro Kann than the 3...Qd6 scandinavian?
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #46 - 05/22/05 at 02:17:20
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guest or reg. user, does not matter - its not necessary to get personal only because somebody dont shares your opinion.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #45 - 05/22/05 at 02:03:42
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It's rather annoying for occasional guests to make critical remarks about regular contributors, especially when they are not making any useful contribution of their own.
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #44 - 05/22/05 at 01:29:10
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and the arguments presented are almost never compelling and mostly full of gibberish.



this is an interesting thread and i see really no need to discriminate some posts only because you dont agree with their opinion about the scandinavian opening, TopNotch, all posts were related to the topic.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #43 - 05/21/05 at 19:16:16
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I'm not sure what you are talking about here Inn2, nobody claimed the Scandinavian was simple, but relatively speaking I would contend it contains the least amount of theory of the mainstream defences to 1e4 (although willempies suggestion of the rubinstein french also has something to be said for it) . How can you possibly claim that the Caro Kann is easier to learn than the Scandinavian when in the Caro Kann white can choose from the Fantasy, the Advance, the Exchange, the Panov, the Two Kights and 3Nc3 to name just a few?  whereas against the Scandinavian white has to play 2exd5 and after 2..Qxd5 3Nc3 black can choose which variation to specialise in. 


There is a difference between whether you *need* to learn the theory to survive, as in the scandinavian, or whether you just need to know the first few moves of the opening and can make it up OTB as you go along, as in the c-k or rubinstein french.

Regarding the caro, I believe you don't have to study much playing against the fantasy (3... e6, b6/Ba6/Bb4), two knights (3... Bg4), advance (3... c5). The combined work-load of these different lines is less than the scandinavian. Grin

In the scandi, you MUST learn all the main-lines if you want to emerge with anything resembling a playable position.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #42 - 05/21/05 at 19:13:54
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I suggest that guests be barred from posting Grin

This will avoid the annoyance of the same person posting with multiple handles as well as making it easier to deal with other abuses.

Guests should be allowed to read posts and thats it, if they want to do more than that, then register.

Top  Grin
« Last Edit: 05/22/05 at 10:33:54 by TopNotch »  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #41 - 05/21/05 at 17:30:03
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I suggest we better refrain from commenting other posts (as long as they have to say something related to chess) even if it may be hard for you accept other opinions, TopNotch.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #40 - 05/21/05 at 14:25:28
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Sometimes I think some of you respond just for the sake of it  Grin

You often contradict yourselves, and the arguments presented are almost never compelling and mostly full of gibberish.

Lets try to refrain from spamming shall we.  

Top  Grin
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #39 - 05/21/05 at 13:45:19
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like somebody stated already in another thread, there is a major difference between there is much theory and you need to know much theory..
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #38 - 05/21/05 at 13:33:08
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That was the original query and the title of this thread.  Grin
 

and the answer to roger3's question is ... the scandinavian
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #37 - 05/21/05 at 13:08:39
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What is the opening vs. e4, that you can play with nearly always the same setup and the same position, with least theory just from your feeling, right away?


That was the original query and the title of this thread.  Grin

The query had nothing to do with what contained the least amount of theory of mainstream defences. Any reliable Mainstream defence requires plenty of theoretical work and knowledge.

The popularity of the Scandanavian has risen in recent years, as a result the theory has grown significantly, it is no longer possible to play this defence as you say, 'With your hands'. Of course if your opponent doesn't know any theory either then you both can play with your hands in virtually any Opening.

Here is the catch, if an Opening with little theory begins to do well, it is assured that that success will lead to an explosion of theoretical and practical interest. So you will be right back where you started to begin with.

Get used to it, to be good at chess, you have to work hard at it. To get good results against good players you have to commit and make some sacrifices in other aspects of your life. However if your opposition is not that tough, then just play what suits your style, and forget about Opening theory. 
 
There are no shortcuts, no magic bullets, no secret potions to becoming a Chessmaster.

Top  Grin  
« Last Edit: 05/21/05 at 14:21:14 by TopNotch »  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #36 - 05/21/05 at 10:13:43
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I agree with Topnotch that the scandinavian is not simple at all! 

The caro-kann is simpler as long as you are willing to play slightly offbeat lines


I'm not sure what you are talking about here Inn2, nobody claimed the Scandinavian was simple, but relatively speaking I would contend it contains the least amount of theory of the mainstream defences to 1e4 (although willempies suggestion of the rubinstein french also has something to be said for it) . How can you possibly claim that the Caro Kann is easier to learn than the Scandinavian when in the Caro Kann white can choose from the Fantasy, the Advance, the Exchange, the Panov, the Two Kights and 3Nc3 to name just a few?  whereas against the Scandinavian white has to play 2exd5 and after 2..Qxd5 3Nc3 black can choose which variation to specialise in. 
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #35 - 05/21/05 at 09:42:59
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I agree with Topnotch that the scandinavian is not simple at all! 

The caro-kann is simpler as long as you are willing to play slightly offbeat lines (which do not have 100% 2700 GM approval, but at least has 100% 2500-2600 GM approval!) 

Nonetheless if White is to "refute" these lines, he must engage in a full-scale tactical brawl when you always get chances. 

Against the advance, try 3... c5.   

Against the panov, try 5... Nc6 and then Be6.  Leko has played this before. It is also a favourite of Tracke (the forum's c-k guru). 

3. Nc3 is the biggest problem, which can be met by 3... dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5! and you can go for the slightly offbeat stuff like 11. Bf4 Bb4+ or 11. Bf4 Nd5!? Both has been tried by the great c-k expert Alexey Dreev. You should also know something about the Jobava-Bareev pawn sac in the 11. Bd2 line. 

For even less theory, you can play 4... h6 (99% of players below 2100 have no idea how to refute this!). Even 4... Nd7 is not so theory-bound, if after 5. Ng5 you play 5.... Ndf6 intending Bg4 next: this may well be the most logical approach for a c-k player!

I wouldn't maintain that these lines have the "least theory", but sidelines in "main" openings are always stronger than offbeat openings, and you have the opportunity to upgrade further. 

Btw, i rather like Willempie's rubinstein french approach too. Topnotch's misgivings seem to concern the amount of theory. But if one is really too lazy to study for a repertoire based on the rubinstein french, then he is really hopeless!
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #34 - 05/21/05 at 06:17:13
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I totally agree with Scipio_Rex's and Willempie's comments on how to learn a new opening.  I made similar comments in a separate thread (http://altmax.com/cgi-local/cpf/YaBB.cgi?board=1e4;action=display;num=1116512229).
Willempie, you say that approach works better for some openings than for others.  Could you give some examples of openings for which it works and for which it doesn't? ???
Thanks
  

Age cannot wither her, nor custom stale her infinite variety - William Shakespeare
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #33 - 05/20/05 at 09:11:39
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I agree with the sentiment, I just feel there are certain openings for which it is easier to take the plunge before studying the books. Ever since I read Yermolinsky's book I just play something after seeing some games with it (like the french or the KI) and after some games with a new opening I look up the theory if I like it. 
That said the approach works better for certain openings than for others as I have experienced on the black side of a Benko.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #32 - 05/20/05 at 07:54:24
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Hello Folks!
Sorry, but sometimes this "fear of theory"-thing is driving me nuts. TopNotch is completely right. There's nothing for free; especially not a reliable answer to 1 e4!

Around my chess area, I know a lot of people who try to practice the "one fits all"-approach. Usually they play 1 e4, followed by a King's Indian "Attack" setup, they gain, how shall I put it, not much from the opening, end up in passive positions and draw (at best!). But they have avoided theory!

OK, I can understand that you can get scared when you look at something like the Sicilian Dragon for Black.
But I thought the main point is to get to play positions that suit you, not to reproduce book lines.
You shoult PLAY an opening, not parrot its books.

Whatever defence you choose against 1 e4, there will be a certain workload. Find out what kind of middlegame you like to play. Make up your mind if you want mere equality or obtain winning chances. There's a lot of openings and subvariations to choose from.
Try it out it Blitz or computer games.
When you've found one you like, just play it. And look up theory afterwards! Playing and learning go hand in hand. If you know why you put your pieces on certain squares, you don't need to "learn" too much (well, at least something would always be helpful...).

The only thing you should avoid are those highly tactical lines, where assessments change from day to day and every move is worth its weight in gold.
You're not obliged to play anything of the like!
Even the Sicilian can be played without having to burn the midnight oil.
Play chess, not theory!
(Sorry if I sound too harsh, but I hope my point is clear.)
Lips Sealed
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #31 - 05/20/05 at 06:41:13
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???

1.e4 e6, 2.d4 c5, 3.d5 is, if I am not completely mistaken, the Benoni Defense, isnt it?
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #30 - 05/20/05 at 06:27:19
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Thanks for your ideas.
Indeed I had a closer look at the Basman Sicilian, one of the most interesting low-theory-Sicilians. But then I discovered one very nasty variation. I currently dont sit in front of a chess board, but I remember that it had to do with Be3, of course answered by Qb6, then Nc3 (answered by Nc6?, not sure of that) and - if I remember correct - in the 7th move White played Nb5, and whatever followed then, was really not very inviting!
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #29 - 05/20/05 at 05:32:27
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How about Owen's defence:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 b6!? 

There's almost no books on it, and if you know your way around sicilian and french middlegames, you should probably be able to 'play it with your hands'...

White will most likely choose one of the obvious take the centre set-ups, so after practicing it awhile as black you'll build your own theory while white will often start from scratch.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #28 - 05/20/05 at 03:24:13
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To answer the initial question I'd suggest this :
1. e4, e6 2. d4, c5
after 3. Nf3 you go for the Basman Sicilian (...cd4 4. Nd4, Bc5) on which there is exactly one book available (and an outstanding one at that, aptly called 'Sicilian for the lazy'). Once in a while you wil meet a weirdo who goes for 3. d5, a not-too-fantastic sideline of the Morra, and you may see some desperation moves such as c3. After all, you robbed most players of the possibility to play their pet Bb5-based Anti-sicilian...
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #27 - 05/20/05 at 01:57:29
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Guidedbyvoices & Willempie: but you would for sure not recommend to somebody who has a complete Sicilian repertoire and done not bad with it, to change it to the Scandi, would you?
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #26 - 05/19/05 at 18:33:39
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Actually this is exactly my point, if you want robust reliable lines, you simply have to do the work  Grin

There is know such thing 'as least theory and yet promising and robust'. 

If you want good games you have to buckle down and put in the theoretical work.

There is no free Lunch

Top  Grin
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #25 - 05/19/05 at 18:27:38
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ok topnotch best of luck with 1..a6, the lion, and the hippo. i had presumed that the original poster was referring to sensible (robust) defences to 1e4.  none of the defences you have proposed are robust, in the sense that the higher you climb on the chess ladder the more work will be needed just to achieve playability  on the black side of them. sure Schmaltz plays the lion, but not too many other top level gms do. for a player starting out and wanting a solid, mainstream defence to 1e4 that involves learning a minimum amount of theory then they probly wont go far wrong with the scandinavian (incidentally i dont currently play the scandi myself but just think that objectively in terms of the amount of theory that needs to be learnt it makes sense. black is dictates how the play goes just as much as white does)
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #24 - 05/19/05 at 18:17:33
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I still maintain Lion or Hippo, the Rubinstein French and Scandanavian with Qxd5 or Nf6 both carry quite a body of theory  Grin 

Whether Scandy is more theory than Rubinstein or vice versa is rather irrelevant Re: Vs. e4 with least theory.

Even 1.e4 a6 should fit the criteria quite nicely, not much theory to study there, and Miles even beat Karpov with it so it must be good right?  Tongue   

Top  Grin
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #23 - 05/19/05 at 18:06:56
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The difference with the french Rubinstein and the scandi is that you can basically upgrade as you go along. You can first set something up against Nd2 and then later turn to Nc3.

Btw I never studied much theory on the french (I probably get into trouble against a booked up whitey, though I switch often) and always got ok games, while with white I love nothing more than for black to play a scandi esp with Qxd5
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #22 - 05/19/05 at 17:54:38
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Nope, you both wrong, only Hippo or Lion fit the bill.  Grin
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #21 - 05/19/05 at 17:44:47
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well maybe its a matter of taste willempie but personally if playing a booked up player and without knowing much theory i would rather play the black side of a scandinavian than a rubinstein french especially if its your main defence to 1e4. the rubinstein becomes a bit predictable, at least in the scandinavian black can switch between 2..Qxd5 and 2..Nf6.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #20 - 05/19/05 at 17:31:13
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I disagree. If you play the lazy french also called the Rubinstein, you only get confronted with the advance, exchange and some sort of KIA, all of which are easy to play as black even without real theory. Advantage is that you get to play different types of positions without being in danger and you can easily expand your theory if you want more. That is the disadvantage of any scandi variation. There is no real way to vary your systems later on without switching everything.
With the french you can later switch to more ambitious systems if you want.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #19 - 05/19/05 at 17:29:59
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I disagree. If you play the lazy french also called the Rubinstein, you only get confronted with the advance, exchange and some sort of KIA, all of which are easy to play as black even without real theory. Advantage is that you get top play different types of positions without being in danger and you can easily expand your theory if you want more. That is the disadvantage of any scandi variation. There is no real way to vary your systems later on without switching everything.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #18 - 05/19/05 at 16:36:40
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of the mainstream defences to 1e4 then relatively speaking the scandinavian is the least theoretical. certainly you would have much better chances of reaching a decent position as black with the scandinavian only knowing a minimum of theory than you would with the french, sicilian, caro kann etc especially playing against a booked up white player. in addition the main plans are relatively easy to assimilate and the play tends to follow a similar character in most of the main lines.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #17 - 05/18/05 at 21:18:05
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The Scandanavian................simple?  Grin

Thats a very interesting description. Simple as compared to what though.

Truth is, any opening is simple once your opponent does not know or play testing lines. If your opponent is well informed then the Scandanavian is anything but simple, it is in fact highly theoretical.

If as the post implies, you are looking for the least theory, then scroll right back up to my initial post. Its either that or the Hippo.

Those are your options.

I wouldn't put you wrong. Honest  Wink

Top Grin 
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #16 - 05/18/05 at 12:35:50
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Ive been playing the scandinavian ever since i passed 1600 OTB. I think it is sound and very simple. I derive into tactical play after 4.d4 e5, but if white dosen't play d4, then my setup is pretty simple. 

as white i try to trick scandi players with 4.g3, a strong move which a few masters played against me, so watch out from that.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #15 - 05/17/05 at 09:23:45
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Just a small remark : it depends on how it fits into your repertoire too. I used to play the Scandivian (2. .... Qd5:) ten years ago against 1. e4, and the 'universal' King's Indian against all the rest. But then I ran into 1. d4, Nf6 2. Nc3  Undecided
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #14 - 05/17/05 at 01:55:51
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LOL!!  Grin

If you think you can make it up as you go along playing the Scandanvian you are sadly mistaken. Moreover Wahls book and the analysis contained therein is dated.

To play the Scandanvian well you have to know lots and lots and lots of theory. If you do not, your only chance is that your opponent is as less informed as you.

Shall I give you a hint, Shirov vs Salov is still the critical line to study here. Another big hint, White should only play Nf3 once Black commits to Nf6, the reason being that if Black delays nf6 too long the kingside pawnstorm is very dangerous almost terminal for black.

The Scandanavian is by no means a non-theoretical haven for Black, so you better look elsewhere fast.

Now listen to me very carefully there is absolutely no non theoretical easy to play defence that is both active, sound and offers good play.

Activity, soundness and good play are reserved strictly for the main recognised defences where you have to do some hard theoretical work.

Sorry lads, I'm afraid its nose to the grindstone time.

Top  Grin  
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #13 - 05/17/05 at 00:41:37
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I tried the Scandinavian according to Wahls in 15 over-the-board games and got a score 11 out of 15.
My rating is approx. 2050 ELO and I won against weaker and stronger opponents.
You don'tneed too much of the theory, there are only a few critical variations.
The only "problem" is, that you need to have a lot of patience, because the active play starts relatively late.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #12 - 05/16/05 at 17:37:35
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topolanek: Why not, if that's what he prefers?

Elta: I believe so. E.g. the following game I won as black in the Dähnepokal (opponent was rated 1862), endless endgame torture (quite imprecise play by both of us) from one of the most boring variations in the Scandinavian:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 c6 5.Bc4 Bf5 6.Nf3 Nf6 7.Bd2 e6 8.Ne5 Nbd7 9.Qe2 Bb4 10.0-0-0 Nxe5 11.dxe5 Nd5 12.Nxd5 Bxd2+ 13.Qxd2 Qxd2+ 14.Rxd2 exd5 15.Bd3 Bxd3 16.Rxd3 0-0-0 17.Rhd1 Rhe8 18.f4 g5 19.Rh3 gxf4 20.Rxh7 Rxe5 21.Rxf7 Re2 22.Rd2 Rxd2 23.Kxd2 Rg8 24.Rh7 Rxg2+ 25.Kd1 f3 26.Rf7 Rxh2 27.Rxf3 Kc7 28.Rf7+ Kb6 29.Rd7 a5 30.a4 Rh4 31.b3 Rb4 32.Kd2 Kc5 33.Kc3 b6 34.Rd8 Rh4 35.Rb8 Rh3+ 36.Kd2 b5 37.Ra8 Kb4 38.axb5 cxb5 39.Rd8 Rh5 40.Kd3 a4 41.bxa4 bxa4 42.Rb8+ Ka3 43.Ra8 Rh4 44.Ra5 Rh1 45.Kc3 Rd1 46.Rb5 d4+ 47.Kc4 Ka2 48.Kb4 Kb2 49.Kxa4+ Kxc2 50.Rc5+ Kd2 51.Kb3 Rb1+ 52.Kc4 d3 53.Rh5 Kc2 0-1

On the other hand, I don't want to scare anyone off from playing the Scandinavian, you sometimes do get fun games like the following one, too (admittedly a rapid game):
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 c6 5.Bd2 Bf5 6.Nf3 Nf6 7.Be2 e6 8.0-0 Nbd7 9.a3 Qc7 10.Re1 Bd6 11.g3 h5 12.Bf1 h4 13.Bg2 0-0-0 14.Ne2 Rh7 15.c4 hxg3 16.fxg3 Ng4 17.c5 Nxc5 18.dxc5 Bxc5+ 19.Ned4 Rxd4 20.Nxd4 Bxd4+ 21.Kf1 Nxh2+ 22.Ke2 Qe5+ 0-1

In the end it's the same as always, the decision is increasingly likely to come about in the endgame if the ratings of the opponents are about similar.
« Last Edit: 05/17/05 at 00:57:20 by Bonsai »  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #11 - 05/16/05 at 16:00:22
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my club colleg is crazy, he seriously considers changing the Sicilian to the scandi as main repertoire for tournaments, i really cant believe it. he says that he scores with the wahls-scandi little bit better then with the sveshni, but he forgets considering the rest, i mean all those anti-sicilians, alapin, rossolimo, closed, sm, gpa, in all those anti-sicilians he has scores he can only dream of compared with his scandi-scores. but no, he insists on it, because he feels that his kingside is in danger when playing the sveshni, he is tired of swashbuckling openings and double-edged positions, he needs something solid.
i cant believe it! ever heard of somebody who seriously considers changing his repertoire from sicilian to scandi?
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #10 - 05/16/05 at 14:22:21
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Thanks, Bonsai.
I am asking myself whether this Wahls judgement is also true for opponents rated around 1600 - 1800 Elo  ???
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #9 - 05/16/05 at 14:01:01
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Yes, you are right about that (and Wahls explicitly makes that clear in the introduction). Quite obviously when you don't take large risks with black then you usually don't have a chance of a quick (possibly cheap) win either.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #8 - 05/16/05 at 11:01:34
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more answers of this kind and i will follow your advise  Angry

some openings tend to be so sharp and imbalanced that they are usually decided in the middle game, some tend to be solid, balanced and decided in the endgame; my feeling was that the Wahls-Scandi is something for people with much patience and I wanted to know whether I am right  or not?
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #7 - 05/16/05 at 10:53:14
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Quote:
Is it correct to say if somebody dont likes to play endgames or to play long games with much patience, then he better dont plays the Wahls Scandinavian???


I can't answer that, but I do think that if somebody doesn't like to play endgames or to play long games with much patience, then he should give up chess.
  

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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #6 - 05/16/05 at 08:49:37
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Is it correct to say if somebody dont likes to play endgames or to play long games with much patience, then he better dont plays the Wahls Scandinavian???
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #5 - 05/16/05 at 08:10:10
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Yes, I know this. But give a GM any simple topic and he writes 3000 pages about it.
The question for me is how you do without this theory, just playing from your feeling. I would not recommend this in the Dragon, Sveshnikov etc.
But the Wahls Scandi is for me maybe the best opening, where it works even without theory quite well (generally spoken, in particular some move orders e.g. with c4 instead of Nc3 can be tricky).
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #4 - 05/16/05 at 07:51:19
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Maybe it is possible to play the Wahls Scandinavian with not much theory (but look how big the book actually is, that is a fair amount of theory), but people that encounter it often enough get booked up on it for the white side and there *is* quite a bit of theory there and not all of it is in his book.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #3 - 05/16/05 at 03:40:00
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At least at a level <2000 there is really nothing easier then the Wahls-Scandi with c6/e6/Bf5, you can play it from your feeling for the position, need to know nearly no theory, always the same setup, sometimes funny games with all pieces on the board and very strong piece play.

Some people tell then to be reluctant with this Wahls-Scandi against weaker opponents. Their argument is that there is not much where the white side can go wrong. But I dont understand this argument. Below 2000 there is in the middle game in ANY opening fully enough to go wrong.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #2 - 05/16/05 at 02:43:13
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The wire was nearly on the way, Mr. TopNotch  Wink. But then I instructed my bank to stop it when recognizing that what you call so shy "Hanham variation" is according to my clever opening quick guide (Jerzy Konikowski) simply the main line of the Philidor. But thanks anyway.
  
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Re: Vs. e4 with least theory?
Reply #1 - 05/15/05 at 21:52:51
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You would be dead wrong if you think it is the Scandanavian  Grin

The Opening you seek goes like this: 

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5! 4.Nf3 Nbd7 

The above is a solid if not ambitious defence. In some circles the setup is known as the Lion, but in actuality it is just a transposition to the Hanham variation of the 'misunderstood' Philidor Defence.

One of the most successful practitioners of this defence is GM Roland ('Hawkeye' on ICC) Schmaltz, who sometimes also employs it with White with a move in hand. I also understand that GM Roman Dzinzichashvili has recommended this defence on one of his recent DVD's for those industrious players like you who want little theory, easy play and good results. Dzinzi's blurb not mine.

The cost of that info will be $10 bucks, pay up please.

Top  Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Roger 3
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Vs. e4 with least theory?
05/15/05 at 02:20:58
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What is the opening vs. e4, that you can play with nearly always the same setup and the same position, with least theory just from your feeling, right away?

I suppose it is the Scandinavian (played the "Wahls"-way with c6 and e6), isnt it? 

Other ideas?
  
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