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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bird repertoire (Read 96811 times)
lost highway
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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #76 - 10/08/05 at 06:40:17
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For patzers here to claim what is the best answer to 1.f4 is ridiculous.  

What is the minimum elo rating required to no longer be considered a patzer?  Are you a patzer too?

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BladezII
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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #75 - 10/07/05 at 18:05:51
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For patzers here to claim what is the best answer to 1.f4 is ridiculous.  It is known that Black has excellent choices to 1.f4.  1....d5, 1... c5,  1...  e5 at least are as good as anything else.   

Personally I have a taste for 1... c5 and 1... d5.  With 1... c5 Black can hope for play to transpose in some cases to a Grand Prix version of the Sicilian.  In other cases, he will be able to play a botvinnik set up ( english) with colors reversed, another solid choice.

If white has the desire to play the leningrad dutch or a stonewall set-up, after 1... d5, I seriously doubt he is asking for an advantage here.

Here is one sample--

1. f4 d5 
2. Nf3 g6 
3. g3 

[3. e3 Bg7 
4. d4 Nf6 
5. Bd3 O-O 
6. O-O c5 
7. c3 b6 
8. Nbd2 Ba6 
9. Bxa6 Nxa6 
10. Qa4 Nc7]

3 ...   Bg7 
4.Bg2 Nf6 
5. O-O O-O 
6. d3 b6 
7. Qe1 Bb7   
8. h3 Nbd7 
9. g4 Re8 
10. Nc3 Nc5 

and if here White tries to dislodge the Knight which helps to hinder e4 pawn push.... 11. b4 d4 12. Nb5 Na4 13. Bd2 Nd5 {Black  is fine.} 



  

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HgMan
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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #74 - 08/23/05 at 09:14:55
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It seems to me that 4 fxe5 is compliant to Black's wishes in that it gives the king bishop a future it did not deserve (6...Bc5 and life on that diagonal) with the slow 1...d6 start. White has several viable alternatives: 4 Nc3, 4 Bc4, and even 4 d3 look better.

Good Chess! Keith


Yes--this is one of those instances where I think the book is a little optimistic.  They offer a very unconvincing line for 4 d3 and don't mention 4 Nc3 or 4 Bc4 at all.  I've been playing  3 ... Nf6, which I find a stronger continuation:


1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4 3 e4 Nf6 4 Nc3 e6 5 h3 Bxf3 6 Qxf3 d5 7 d3 Nc6 8 Qf2 Bb4 9 Bd2 d4 10 Nb1 Bxd2+

1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4 3 e4 Nf6 4 h3 Bxf3 5 Qxf3 e6 6 d3 d5 7 e5 Nfd7 8 c3 c5

1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4 3 e4 Nf6 4 fxe5 dxe5 5 Nc3 f5 (surely not best, but rather tempting at the time) 6 e4 fxe4 7 Nxe4 Nf6 8 Nf2 Bc5 9 Nxg4 Nxg4 10 d4 exd4 11 Bg5 Qd5 12 Bb5+ Nc6 13 Qe2+ Ne3
with a complicated position.

I don't think any of the above are templates of perfect play for White or Black, but I don't see Black experiencing any difficulties here...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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drawyah
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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #73 - 08/23/05 at 08:45:10
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Yrjola & Tella give as a main line:
1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4 3 e4 e5 (I've tried 3 ... Nf6 here, which is interesting and a sideline in the book) 4 fxe5 dxe5 5 Bc4 Nf6 6 c3 Bxf3?! (they claim 6 ... Bc5 or 6 ... Qd7 is likely better) 7 Qxf3 Nf6 8 0-0 Bc5+ 9 Kh1 =


It seems to me that 4 fxe5 is compliant to Black's wishes in that it gives the king bishop a future it did not deserve (6...Bc5 and life on that diagonal) with the slow 1...d6 start. White has several viable alternatives: 4 Nc3, 4 Bc4, and even 4 d3 look better.

Good Chess! Keith
  
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HgMan
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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #72 - 08/23/05 at 08:21:36
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Alumbrado's right that after 1 ... d6 play can transpose into any number of openings, though Michael's suggestion of 1 f4 d6 2 e4 d5!? is certainly interesting.  

Of independent value, however, Yrjola & Tella give as a main line:

1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4 3 e4 e5 (I've tried 3 ... Nf6 here, which is interesting and a sideline in the book) 4 fxe5 dxe5 5 Bc4 Nf6 6 c3 Bxf3?! (they claim 6 ... Bc5 or 6 ... Qd7 is likely better) 7 Qxf3 Nf6 8 0-0 Bc5+ 9 Kh1 =

1 ... d6 doesn't do much for claiming the center of the board, but it also has the added advantage of not committing a pawn there either.  If the bishop on g4 is especially dangerous, then surely there are some advantages to holding the pawn back and not making it a target?!
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #71 - 08/23/05 at 07:37:35
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I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that 1 e4 d6 2 f4 gives White nothing after 2 ...d5!?.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #70 - 08/23/05 at 04:03:21
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The main problem with 1.f4 d6!? is that White can (and should in my view) respond 2.e4(!), when Black is faced with a choice between the King's Gambit Declined after 2...e5; a Sicilian Grand Prix Attack after 2...c5, but one in which Black is committed to ...d6 and White has not had to play Nc3 to avoid ...d5; or a Pirc/Modern Austrian Attack, which is currently causing Black problems.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #69 - 08/22/05 at 22:12:40
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Interesting idea, 1...d6.  I still prefer grabbing as much of the center as I can with 1...d5.  After all, I like playing ...Bf8-d6 whenever I can get away with it.  I guess the idea would be to play an early ...g6 and ...Bg7.  Where does Black put his King in the lines given in your book?
  
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HgMan
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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #68 - 08/22/05 at 17:34:32
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If there are some concerns about 1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 Bg4 equalizing on the spot---a claim a number of people have made and several have rejected, what do people think of 1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4, which is recommended in Yrjola and Tella's An Explosive Chess Opening Repertoire for Black.  Their analysis is light and--as with much of the book--their verdicts overly optimistic for Black, but this does look like a potent line.  Thoughts?
« Last Edit: 08/23/05 at 08:22:34 by HgMan »  

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TopNotch
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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #67 - 08/21/05 at 00:28:09
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Simplistic insofar as it was easily blunted, my friend.


Everything in Chess looks simplistic and easy once you know how, and double check it with an analysis engine. The thing is, in a real game we don't or should not have the luxury of such crutches. If we did we should all be GM's, in fact access to analysis engines, huge libraries and days to play is why I could never take correspondence chess too seriously.

Moving along, Lost Highway's line does indeed look favorable for white, but Black has other possibilities he can investigate as well, such as  9...Nc6!?, I will post some sample lines later, for now its past my bedtime.

Topster Grin   
  

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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #66 - 08/20/05 at 22:47:24
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Postscript: The idea behind 10.Nb5 is tactically motivated and is an important part of proving White's comp in many lines. After 10.Nb5, threatened was the interference motif Ned6+ followed by Nc7+, that maybe simplistic for you but not for everyone lol.


Simplistic insofar as it was easily blunted, my friend.
  

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lost highway
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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #65 - 08/20/05 at 21:09:27
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In the 9.e3 Nf5 line, even 10.Nf2 gives white the edge (10...Qxe5 11.Nxg4 Qc5 12.e4).

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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #64 - 08/20/05 at 21:01:21
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Picking up on the 9 e3 line, 10 Nb5 looks a bit simplistic and gives Black the opportunity of creating counterplay (10 ... d5 is intriguing).  What about 10 Qd2 instead?  It's very easy to sac the exchange when White's queen is buried.  What about 10 Qd2 Qxe5 11 0-0-0 ?


I believe this more or less tranposes into the first example I gave except that the White pawn is on e2.

White has a lead in development, and Black has an extra pawn and reasonably solid position with many resources.

Game on.

Tops Grin

Postscript: The idea behind 10.Nb5 is tactically motivated and is an important part of proving White's comp in many lines. After 10.Nb5, threatened was the interference motif Ned6+ followed by Nc7+, that maybe simplistic for you but not for everyone lol.   


  

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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #63 - 08/20/05 at 20:46:17
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A very interesting line 8.Nbc3!? but I don't understand 8...Qh4+? followed by the even worse 9...Qh6??. 

Black should investigate the much more logical 8...Qe7 with an interesting and to my knowledge untested position. White will no doubt lose the e-pawn but certainly has some compensation for it, whether it is enough will have to be confirmed in practice. Here are a couple sample lines: 

1. f4 e5 2. fxe5 Nc6 3. Nf3 g5 4. d4 g4 5. Ng5 Bh6 6. Ne4 Bxc1 7. Qxc1 Nxd4 8. Nbc3 Qe7!? 9. Qd2 Qxe5 10. O-O-O Nf5 (10...Ne6!?) 11. Qd5 Qxd5 12. Nxd5 Kd8 =/+

1. f4 e5 2. fxe5 Nc6 3. Nf3 g5 4. d4 g4 5. Ng5 Bh6 6. Ne4 Bxc1 7. Qxc1 Nxd4 8. Nbc3 Qe7!? 9. e3 Nf5 10. Nb5 d5!? 11. exd6 Qxe4 12. Nxc7+ Kd8 13. Nxa8 Nxe3 14. Kd2 Nf6  Unclear or -/+ 

Its stuff like the above in the From's and Neo From's that scares potential Bird's players silly, and keeps the Opening unpopular. These two gambits rank among the precious few promising ones around, due in large part to the self weakening 1.f4.

Conclusion: In the absence of more practical examples with 8.Nbc3!?, I hesitate to give a difinitive judgement. Nevertheless, from what I have analysed I would be uncomfortable as White if my repertoire depended on this. 

Your humble servant

Toppylov Grin


Picking up on the 9 e3 line, 10 Nb5 looks a bit simplistic and gives Black the opportunity of creating counterplay (10 ... d5 is intriguing).  What about 10 Qd2 instead?  It's very easy to sac the exchange when White's queen is buried.  What about 10 Qd2 Qxe5 11 0-0-0 ?

Frankly, though, I'm somewhat more partial to 4 h3 & 5 e4 as discussed earlier in this thread.  It may be weakening all kinds of dark squares, but I don't see how Black can easily exploit this.  All in all, I'm not terribly scared (though regularly silly).

I still think Black needs to prove something after:

1 f4 e5 2 fxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 g5 4 h3 d6 5 e4 g4 6 hxg4 Bxg4 7 Bb5 Nge7 8 d4 dxe5 9 d5
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Bird repertoire
Reply #62 - 08/20/05 at 20:12:18
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5...Bh6 wins back the pawn, but I am not sure it is that easy for Black. If White focuses on quick developement, including castling queenside, Black seems to have issues keeping pace with development. The following game demonstrates this plan.

[Event "Oberliga Sued W 0203"]
[Site "Germany"]
[Date "2002.10.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Bohn, Thomas"]
[Black "Zimmermann, Klemens"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A02"]
[WhiteElo "2365"]
[BlackElo "2268"]
1 f4 e5 2 fxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 g5 4 d4 g4 5 Ng5 Bh6 6 Ne4 Bxc1 7 Qxc1 Nxd4 8 Nbc3 Qh4+ 9 g3 Qh6 10 Nf6+ Kf8 11 Qxh6+ Nxh6 12 O-O-O Ne6 13 e4 Kg7 14 Bc4 c6 15 Rhf1 b5 16 Bxe6 dxe6 17 Rf4 b4 18 Na4 Ba6 19 Nc5 Bb5 20 Rd7 Kf8 21 Nxg4 Nxg4 22 Rfxf7+ 1-0

Good Chess! Keith


A very interesting line 8.Nbc3!? but I don't understand 8...Qh4+? followed by the even worse 9...Qh6??. 

Black should investigate the much more logical 8...Qe7 with an interesting and to my knowledge untested position. White will no doubt lose the e-pawn but certainly has some compensation for it, whether it is enough will have to be confirmed in practice. Here are a couple sample lines: 

1. f4 e5 2. fxe5 Nc6 3. Nf3 g5 4. d4 g4 5. Ng5 Bh6 6. Ne4 Bxc1 7. Qxc1 Nxd4 8. Nbc3 Qe7!? 9. Qd2 Qxe5 10. O-O-O Nf5 (10...Ne6!?) 11. Qd5 Qxd5 12. Nxd5 Kd8 =/+

1. f4 e5 2. fxe5 Nc6 3. Nf3 g5 4. d4 g4 5. Ng5 Bh6 6. Ne4 Bxc1 7. Qxc1 Nxd4 8. Nbc3 Qe7!? 9. e3 Nf5 10. Nb5 d5!? 11. exd6 Qxe4 12. Nxc7+ Kd8 13. Nxa8 Nxe3 14. Kd2 Nf6  Unclear or -/+ 

Its stuff like the above in the From's and Neo From's that scares potential Bird's players silly, and keeps the Opening unpopular. These two gambits rank among the precious few promising ones around, due in large part to the self weakening 1.f4.

Conclusion: In the absence of more practical examples with 8.Nbc3!?, I hesitate to give a difinitive judgement. Nevertheless, from what I have analysed I would be uncomfortable as White if my repertoire depended on this. 

Your humble servant

Toppylov Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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