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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there (Read 30638 times)
Viking
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #25 - 11/14/05 at 02:43:08
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I have also played the Bird-like setup against 1-,d5, but only after the moveorder: b3 d5 Bb2 Nf6 e3 & f4!?
If u are "lucky", black plays c5 as well (when Bb5 is strong)...

Have u tried the Nc3/Bd3/Ne2 plan as given by Jacobs & Tait in "Nimzo-Larsen Attack" !? 
If so, what is your experiance with it? 
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #24 - 11/13/05 at 14:22:21
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Thanks you guys this is very interesting. I will often transpose in to a bird or just a reversed ducth after Bb2. I think this is one of the ways to play aggresively in the Larsen. I also play english type postions some times or if i am a in an uncanny mood the hippo as white! Any way it is a very rich system. I am enjoying my test run results so far. And have enjoyed alot of the unique positions that arise making my love of tactical play a trump most of the time. 


what do you guys think of B3 Nc6. I was thinking it would either transpose into one of the main lines with e5 and Nc6 but it could also go into an owens with colors reversed or even somthing highly original. like a dutch reversed and black has played the queer move Nc6. 

  
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Viking
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #23 - 11/13/05 at 13:49:49
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@
I have to agree with you.  However, few would play f4 before setting the bishop on b2.

Yes, few Larsen players probably would. But alot of Bird players play this way...  Wink


@
....and the opening has transposed into the   Capablanca variation of the Reti.   A line that many professionals consider to be safe for black.  However,  I have had great success with the Na3 idea  
  
This Na3!? plan of yours reminds me of Timman -Jussupow Linares 1992. The game impressed me alot the first time I saw it (outplaying black with "simple" play). The game had a different move order though. Enjoy Grin:

1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c6 3.Bg2 Bg4 4.b3 Nd7 5.Bb2 Ngf6 6.d3 e6 7.0-0 Bd6 8.c4 0-0 
9.Na3 Re8 10.Nc2 a5 11.Rc1 Bh5 12.Re1 Qb6 13.Rb1 Qa7 14.a3 Rad8 15.Qd2 e5 16.Nh4 Bc5 
17.e3 dxc4 18.bxc4 Bf8 19.d4 Nc5 20.f3 exd4 21.exd4 Nb3 22.Qf4 b5 23.Bf1 Rxe1 24.Rxe1 Bd6 
25.Qe3 a4 26.cxb5 cxb5 27.Bxb5 Qb8 28.Bxa4 Na5 29.Bc1 Nc4 30.Qe2 Rc8 31.Bg5 Nd5 32.Bd7 Rc7 
33.Bf5 Bf8 34.Qe4 Nc3 35.Qd3 g6 36.g4 gxf5 37.gxh5 Nd5 38.Qxf5 Nd6 39.Qxd5 Rxc2 40.Bf4 h6 
41.Nf5  1-0


  
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Paul123
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #22 - 11/12/05 at 21:13:49
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Quote:
After 1.b3 d5 2.f4
2-,Bg4! is strong



I have to agree with you.  However, few would play f4 before setting the bishop on b2. 

Lines stemming from 1. b3 d5 2. Bb2 Bg5 are usually seen only in master class and above chess.   

A few well known examples

an Original idea

1.b3 d5 2.Bb2 Bg4 3.f3!? is interesting  3...Bh5 4.e3 f6 5.c4 c6 6.d4 Nd7 7.Nc3 e6 8.Bd3 f5 9.Nh3 Qh4+ 10.Kf1 Nh6 11.Nf4 Bf7 12.cxd5 = but the position has a lot of play for both sides.



  1.b3 d5 2.Bb2 Bg4 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 Nf6 5.Nf3 Nbd7 6.0–0 c6 7.c4    and the opening has transposed into the   Capablanca variation of the Reti.   A line that many professionals consider to be safe for black.  However,  I have had great success with the Na3 idea   

1.b3 d5 2.Bb2 Bg4 3.h3  (attacking the bishop)  3… Bh5  (or maybe3… Bf5)  4.g3 e6 5.Bg2 Nf6 6.c4 c6 7.Nf3 Nbd7 8.0–0 Bd6 9.d3 0–0 10.Nbd2 [10.Na3!?  Play could/might go as the following 10...Qe7 11.Nc2 e5 12.a3 Rae8 13.b4 e4 14.dxe4 dxe4 15.Nfd4] 10...Qe7 11.Qc2 Bg6 12.Rac1= again with a position with a lot of play.   



  
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basqueknight
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #21 - 11/08/05 at 08:24:14
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Any sample games on this choice of development?

I was wondering what people generaly thought about the different setups for black. Do any of you have a preferred line of development. Or do you just not see this opening enough to care. 

I am enclined to respond either 1...b6 or just 1...e5 developing classicaly and confronting the larsen player head on. In a clash of schools, Classical vs Hypermodern. 

Other setups i have seen are d5,c5, c6, e5+d6(this is somthing of cowards choice no offense to any one who plays it i just think that if i am facing white and he plays b3 i want to go for a bigger advantage. But on the other hand you might anoy white a bit by playing like this!) Im sure i dont have them all covered leave your thoughts and ill check in later.
  
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #20 - 11/07/05 at 08:16:15
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After 1.b3 d5 2.f4
2-,Bg4! is strong
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #19 - 11/07/05 at 00:16:10
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tracke wrote on 11/06/05 at 22:49:38:
I play 1.b3 now for 4 years as my main white opening on a ~2200 elo level and still enjoy it! Also I have reasonable results (~70% score) and even in my few defeats the opening has never been the problem.
 
1.b3 is not a beginners opening, you should have already developed a strategical understanding before entering this, especially experience with 1.c4 is very useful!   
 
For 1.b3 starters the books by Dunnington and Jacobs/Tait are very good. You can get some ideas and the very little of necessary theory, afterwards search new games in TWIC from Pavel Blatny for example. But don´t forget the main goal: leaving theory on move 3   
 
1...f5 is very good - from the white side of view! After 2.Bb2 already has problems:   
- 2...Nf6 3.Bxf6! is a very good structure for white
- 2...d6 with the idea of 3...Nbd7 and 4...Ngf6 should be answered by transposition to dutch main variations where Nbd7 is unusual (and bad)
- 2...e6 3.e4! fxe4? 4.Qh5+ Ke7 (g6 5.Qe5 +-) must be good for white though there´s no forced win. This is a very good scorer in blitz games! Some russians have tried 3...Qh4!? but 4.exf5 or even the gambit 4.Nf3 Qxe4+ 5.Be2 looks promising
 
1...Nf6 2.Bb2 g6!? 3.Bxf6! exf6 4.c4! is a good kind of the tromp, white can still cover e4 with d2-d3.
 
1...e5 is of course the main variation with most often 2.Bb2 Nc6 to follow. Now 3.c4 or 3.Nf3 are possible but you should play 3.e3 with no fear in view of 3...d5 because that´s exactly the kind of play you´re aiming for - white gets a slight advantage! After 3...Nf6 you can play 4.c4 (look at Fischer-Andersson, Siegen1970, 1:0) or 4.Bb5 with complicated positions after both 4...d6 and 4...Bd6!? . - In case of 1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 d6 try 3.e3 with an early d2-d4, especially if black adds f7-f5: then after e5-e4 you can use f4 as an outpost for your kings knight. The second (and maybe best) possibility is to play 3.g3 and transpose to main lines of the kings indian fianchetto variation (but only  while knowing theory a little bit), it´s very likely that you can get a system with Nb8-d7 on blacks side, while in the KI move order other systems with Nb8-c6 are supposed to be more active (sorry, I can´t discuss every possible move order concerning this).
 
Maybe most annoying is 1...d5. There´s no simple way to play for initiative, but there are many ways to try. Most black players know 1.b3 d5 2.Bb2 c5 3.e3 Nc6 4.Bb5 as good for white so they will delay c7-c5 for a while - in fact not often white gets a nimzo or queensindian with an extra move
After 2.Bb2 c5 3.e3 a6 play 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.d4! and enter a colle/zukertort with an useless a6 for black. This white structure you can also enter in any case though against other black setups it´s harmless (but useful as a backup line).
Playing a Bird with 3./4. f2-f4 always sharpens the game - when black has looked in his queens bishop with e7-e6 it´s quite promising. With blacks bishop on f5 or g4 you can play coffeehouse style with f3/g4/h4 hunting this piece! But be careful, you really take positional risks!
The third idea gainst d5-setups is to fianchetto both bishops and play a Reti. Most often black counters with a London or New York setup: 1.b3 d5 2.Bb2 Nf6 3.g3 Bf5/g4 4.Bg2 c6 5.Nf3 e6 6.0-0 Nbd7 7.c4 Be7 ... As I play this line with both colours I cannot promise an advantage for white.   
 
Other moves as 1...c5 or 1...b6 are possible but rare. Just play chess! By the way: for sure your opponents even know less than you about the opening! In most of my tournament games they needed half an hour to reach move 5   
 
tracke   


So now what about the others. I would think b6 is quite playable.
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #18 - 11/06/05 at 22:49:38
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I must admit that i am growing more attached to independent systems related to flank openings. So i thought this spike was very original looking and very fun. The positions that arise are very unique and fun to play. Maybe im going insane contemplating somthing other than my tried and true e4. But its always tempting to go off the beaten path
  
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #17 - 11/06/05 at 21:24:12
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1.f4 d5 2.b3 and 1...Nf6 2.b3 was already recommended by LM Picket in his 1975 booklet on the Bird. Very solid is 1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 c6 4.Nf3 Bg4. Violating copyrights (who can still find this booklet after all those years?) I type over:

5.e3 e6 6.Be2 Bd6 (Bxf3!?) 7.o-o o-o 8.Ne5 Bxe2 9.Qxe2 Nbd7 10.c4 Qe7
Black now has a solid position and should hold his own: 11.d3 Rad8 12.Nd2 Ne8 13.Ndf3 f6 14.Nxd7 Rxd7 = with approximately even chances.
  

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Klick
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #16 - 11/06/05 at 04:34:18
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My computer suggests :  1.b3 Nf6 2.Bb2 g6 3.g4 h6...

And what about 1.Nf3 and then b3?

or

1.f4 and then b3?

The latter looks interesting.


Interesting game and comments Paul. I`ll  have a closer look at it.
  

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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #15 - 11/06/05 at 03:00:23
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Paul, 

Thanks for the game, and especially your commentary on it.  I don't remember having seen this variation before.  I did play through a number of Larsen's games more than twenty years ago, so I might have seen something like it. My memory (which is still pretty good) is beginning to show signs of age. Cry
  
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Paul123
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #14 - 11/05/05 at 23:38:33
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Crazy chess is not as popular as it used to be

However, One of the great things about the Larsen is that its scores well against Sicilian Dragon/KID type defenses. (It’s the reasons I think Larsen was playing 1.b3 back in his day, i.e.  the popularity of both openings)   

The Larsen g4 spike!     Black can equalize but like I    because of the long middle games there is a lot of play in the positions reached, black has viable difficulties unique to traditional openings.


  I think over all in game one, black equalized but was walking a tightrope. One too many slips and it was all over.   

Event "CZE-chT1c 9697"] 
[Site "Czechia"] 
[Date "1996.??.??"] 
[Round "0"] 
[White "Choleva,Zdenek"] 
[Black "Zaruba,Antonin"] 
[Result "1-0"] 
[Eco "A01"]

1.b3 Nf6 2.Bb2 g6 3.g4 Bg7 4.g5 Nh5 5.Nc3!?   


An interesting move!  I like this, usually I see d4  here)       


5…d5 6.e3 c5 7.Bg2 e6 8.h4 d4 9.Na4!?   


This is an interesting move too,  at first it didn’t look right.  However, I think it was the start of a positional trap design to strand black’s knight at h5!.     Around move 13 white’s plan  started to become clear to me.   I'm not sure if it is sound but it sure was a great idea!  [9.Nce2!?   This looks possible too.  Being someone who plays the Larsen frequently, this was my knee jerk move. I can see play might go as  9...dxe3 10.Bxg7 Nxg7 11.dxe3 Nd7 12.Nf3 h6 13.Qd3 Qa5++- with white having the advantage] 

9...Na6!? [9...Qc7!? 10.Nh3 0–0!? (10...c4 11.Bxd4 Bxd4 12.exd4 cxb3 13.axb3 “ to me this is unclear”) 11.Qf3 f5 12.0–0–0=] 
10.Qe2 Rb8 11.c4 Bd7 12.Rb1 b5  This pawn push falls in with whites big plan.  Having played positions like this I know it awfully hard for black to centrally attack whites pawn fortress in the center (pawns at d2 e3 and f2 ) so black’s counter play had to come from the queens side, if  from anywhere.  But that's just it with the Larsen, if black doesn't press the attack and digs his heels in and waits he/she gets "usually" a good game.   


13.cxb5 Bxb5 14.Qxb5+!  Here is what I think White’s main opening idea was  14...Rxb5 15.Bc6+ Ke7 16.Bxb5  Now The positional trap is sprung!   Essentially black’s knight on h5 is dead in the water.  Although Black has a material advantage,  white has better piece play.    I'm not so sure it's sound   for it appears to me that if black can free that knight on h5,  white’s cause is hopeless.  But that is the struggle black had to face over the board!   

16...Nb4 17.Bc4 dxe3 18.dxe3! Keeping black's knight at h5 bottled up...nice;) 

18...Nd3+ 19.Ke2 Nxb2 20.Nxb2 Qa5 [20...Bxb2!? 21.Rxb2 Ng7 22.Nf3 Qa5 23.Rd1 Qc7 24.Bb5 (but  24.Rbd2 Rb8 25.a4 a5 26.Bb5+- seems to do some damage) 24...Rd8 25.Rxd8 Qxd8 I think is about equal] 21.a4 Qc3 22.Bd3 Rd8 23.Nf3 Qxb3 24.Nd2 Qa2 25.Nbc4 Qxa4 26.Rb7+ Rd7 27.Rhb1 Bc3 28.Rxd7+ Qxd7 29.Rb8 f5 [29...f6! 30.gxf6+ Nxf6 31.Ne4 Qc7 32.Rh8–+] 30.Nf3 Qc7 31.Ra8 e5 32.Bc2 e4 33.Nfd2 Qb7 34.Re8+ Kxe8 35.Nd6+ Kd7 36.Nxb7 Kc6 37.Nd8+ Kb5 38.Nf7 a5 39.Bb3 Bxd2 40.Kxd2 Kb4 41.Bd5 a4 42.Ne5 a3 43.Kc2 f4 44.Bxe4 fxe3 45.fxe3 Ng3 46.Bd3 Nh1 47.Nc6+ Ka4 48.Kc3 Ng3 49.Ne5 Nh1 50.Bc2+ Kb5 51.Kb3 1–0 

Just my take on the game

I think if one is going to play the Larsen g4 spike, playing g5  and h4 with a d4 and maybe a Nc3 stirs the pot best.   
        
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #13 - 11/04/05 at 17:09:16
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So i was taking another look at the larsen and found an interesting line. A lot of people try for a kings indian where b3 with out c4 and d4 will look kind of silly. But there is a little problem with it.

1.b3! Nf6 2.Bb2 g6 3.g4!? 

What does every one think. Do the current Larsen players play in this fashion or do you transpose into an english. I would rather stick to purley larsen paths. My self. Almost reminds me of a basman game!

[Event "CZE-chT1c 9697"]
[Site "Czechia"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Choleva,Zdenek"]
[Black "Zaruba,Antonin"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A01"]
1.b3 Nf6 2.Bb2 g6 3.g4 Bg7 4.g5 Nh5 5.Nc3 d5 6.e3 c5 7.Bg2 e6 8.h4 d4 
9.Na4 Na6 10.Qe2 Rb8 11.c4 Bd7 12.Rb1 b5 13.cxb5 Bxb5 14.Qxb5+ Rxb5 15.Bc6+ Ke7 16.Bxb5 Nb4 
17.Bc4 dxe3 18.dxe3 Nd3+ 19.Ke2 Nxb2 20.Nxb2 Qa5 21.a4 Qc3 22.Bd3 Rd8 23.Nf3 Qxb3 24.Nd2 Qa2 
25.Nbc4 Qxa4 26.Rb7+ Rd7 27.Rhb1 Bc3 28.Rxd7+ Qxd7 29.Rb8 f5 30.Nf3 Qc7 31.Ra8 e5 32.Bc2 e4 
33.Nfd2 Qb7 34.Re8+ Kxe8 35.Nd6+ Kd7 36.Nxb7 Kc6 37.Nd8+ Kb5 38.Nf7 a5 39.Bb3 Bxd2 40.Kxd2 Kb4 
41.Bd5 a4 42.Ne5 a3 43.Kc2 f4 44.Bxe4 fxe3 45.fxe3 Ng3 46.Bd3 Nh1 47.Nc6+ Ka4 48.Kc3 Ng3 
49.Ne5 Nh1 50.Bc2+ Kb5 51.Kb3  1-0

[Event "Ruhrgebiet VK3 9798"]
[Site "Ruhrgebiet"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Theissen,Karsten"]
[Black "Claus,Joachim"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "A01"]
1.b3 Nf6 2.Bb2 g6 3.g4 Bg7 4.g5 Nh5 5.d4 c5 6.e3 Nc6 7.Nf3 d6 8.h4 Bg4 
9.Be2 Qd7 10.Na3 cxd4 11.Nxd4 Bxe2 12.Qxe2 Nxd4 13.exd4 0-0 14.0-0-0 d5 15.Rhe1  1/2

[Event "Rilton Cup 9798"]
[Site "Stockholm"]
[Date "1997.12.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Bodin,Stefan"]
[Black "Degerman,Lars"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "A01"]
1.b3 Nf6 2.Bb2 g6 3.g4 Bg7 4.Bg2 d6 5.h3 e5 6.e3 Nc6 7.Ne2 h5 8.g5 Nh7 
9.h4 f6 10.Be4 Ne7 11.gxf6 Nxf6 12.Nbc3 Nxe4 13.Nxe4 Bg4 14.N4g3 0-0 15.d4 Qe8 16.Qd3 Nf5 
17.Nxf5 Rxf5 18.Rh2 exd4 19.Nxd4 c5 20.Qc4+ Rf7 21.Nb5 Bxb2 22.Nxd6 Qe6 23.Nxf7 Qxc4 0-1

In the game that white lost i dont like his interpration so much but it seems like an interesting idea. Sad part thought is that these are the 3 newest games in this line. Does any one know if there was a refutation published or is crazy chess just not as popular as it used to be. 

Any thoughts and expieriences in this line would be nice to hear about. Please drop me a line either here or leave me a message.
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #12 - 07/03/05 at 21:11:45
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Thank you all very much. And nice to hear from you paul. You clio kids were raised on the fianchetto. Im a Kearsley Alumni but im not haten! 

I am one of two hypermodern players to come out of kearsley. But i was not that way when i played for them i was classical! now my owens and Larsen are taking over the club and my results are improving. 

Nice to hear from a Michigander and thanks to every one for your insite. I hope that this thread continues to grow.
  
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Re: Any Nimzo-Larsen Fans out there
Reply #11 - 07/02/05 at 22:05:37
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First of all I didn’t intend to come off harsh, nor did I intend to get personnel.  If I was, I apologize….  However,  I was trying to make a point about being constructive not negative. I guess in a somewhat crude fashion.   

 
4…Bd6 does equalizes   


I’m not sure it’s the main line. One doesn’t have to play Bb5.   I think most people who open with 1. b3 once they see 3…Nf6, are playing 4. c4. (Because of  4. Bb4 Bd6!)   

but I play both

  Back in 1993 I thought Morozevich played a nice game with some cool ideas

Morozevich Alexander - Sveshnikov Evgeny   
RUS It Podolsk, 1993

1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.Ne2 0–0 6.0–0 Re8 7.Ng3 e4 8.Be2 Be5 9.Bxe5 Nxe5 10.d4 exd3 11.cxd3 d5 12.d4 ( White gets a  nice QGD Exchange Variation…with a central push or minority attack...Jacobs and Tait  Nimzo-larsen Everyman chess )  game ended in ½–½  I would probably have gone for the minority attack.... but I'm no Morozevich!

I thought this next game has some nice ideas too      

Garcia Padron Jose-  Romero Holmes Alfonso   
 
1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.Ne2 a6 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.d4 e4 8.c4 O-O 9.Nbc3   (White gets a nice reverse French) ended in a win for white 

I also liked 

"Kunin Yt -Arkhangelsky Boris 
1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.Ne2 a6 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.d4 exd4 8.Qxd4 Bg4 9.f3 c5 10.Qd3 Bd7 11.Nd2 O-O 12.O-O-O b5 13.e4 c4 I thought was a cool game.   

In my database I got  White 1-0 22% Draws 49% black 0-1 28%   Not to good varation for white by even my bias standards!!!

Something of note    ** the average move length of a draw is at 39 moves in my data base

However....I  liked whites positions In a lot of games where white losses or draws in the 4....Bd6 var     There was a lot of dynamic room to create ideas, however so does black!  IMO  Most of the variations in the Larsen are like this.     If one notices the Larsen has some really late middle games on average.    .      
  
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