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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defence? (Read 20781 times)
Viking
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #32 - 04/11/06 at 10:13:54
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As thorough Khalifman usually is I expect that even 6..a5 should be covered in his book!? --as this line would simply avoid his preferred variation...
Anyone knows?
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #31 - 04/11/06 at 09:57:33
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I never like ...Nbd7. After x.Bg5 I respond either with ...Ne4 or with ...h6. As the queen's bishop is White's most important light piece in the IZ, I welcome it if White wants to exchange it; as a result e6-e5 will be easier.
  

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Viking
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #30 - 04/11/06 at 06:06:03
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So far we have been talking about: 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.Nf3 o-o 6.o-o a5!?
What if white plays 6.Nc3 instead? Are there any reason to not play 6..a5!? here as well?
The only reason I could think of (now) is 7.Bg5!? (with the plan to Bxf6 and break up the centre with e4). Normally black has Nbd7 available. I have to look into this....
  
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Viking
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #29 - 04/10/06 at 20:54:20
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MNB,
It was actually in this thread  Smiley that Richard Palliser initially mentioned this idea...

And Yes, this is the idea that I have been attracted to lately. Black avoids all b2b4-variations and have played a flexible move (6..a5) that is meaningful no no matter how white continues!(?). That is my point of view, at least until the opposite can be  "proven" Wink As I am relatively new to this type of dutch I intend to use this move-order to simply minimize my needed preparation...
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #28 - 04/10/06 at 20:35:40
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I don't own the Chalifman book, but I recall having read, that he advocated either 7.b4 or 7.Nc3 and 8.b4.
If you don't like it as Black, you can avoid it: 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.Nf3 o-o 6.o-o a5 followed by 7...d6. White's only independent option 7.d5 does not look scary (Na6 or Bc5), now I have looked at it. This was pointed out by Richard Palliser above.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #27 - 04/10/06 at 20:16:59
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Anybody; What did Khalifman prefer against the Classical Dutch in his Kramnik series?
(probably nothing really scary that Pinski and Williams doesnt cover as these books were pubished last....?)

  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #26 - 07/11/05 at 05:59:54
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You have already answered your own question. 7.b4 and the related 7.Nc3 Qe8 8.b4 is in my opinion one of the two ways to play for an advantage for White.
Williams' work is certainly worth buying, as it urged and urges me to work on my pet defense. But the b4 variations are not the only insufficient treated IMO.
Fairly typical for Williams is, that against one he recommends e5 exchanging the e-pawn against the White b-pawn. Against the other he condemns it.
Having said this, I must stress, that Williams has included a lot of original ideas ans analysis. In the process of thinking them over, he has certainly improved my understanding. That is much more, than many other writers can say.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #25 - 07/11/05 at 03:50:58
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So is 7 b4 still a problem for Black? Simon did I feel neglect it a little in his generally excellent work, whereas there's a reasonable amount of coverage. Certainly it's something Black must be ready for as it's all too easy to be quickly much worse; e.g. Kunte-Hanley, Blackpool 2003.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #24 - 07/08/05 at 11:03:58
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Yes, I saw that post by Richard Palliser and it did set me thinking, but so far I haven't seen 7.b4 in my games anyway, so I'm not sure how I'll handle it when it crops up.  I ought to mention that I am playing either Blitz or email/CC chess at low levels so the theory isn't as important for me - most of my opponents deviate well before move 7, actually! That's not to say that I won't take the theory seriously, at least up to a sensible point - I like to know what I'm doing - but I haven't experimented too much just yet.  Lots of work still to do...
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #23 - 07/08/05 at 07:19:53
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In that case you should also consider 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.o-o o-o 6.c4 a5!? 7.Nc3 d6. This avoids 6.c4 d6 7.b4!? while 6.c4 a5 7.d5 Bc5 looks playable for Black, as Palliser pointed out in this thread. So maybe the Classical Dutch is the most flexible Daring Defense after all!?
Good to see, that you are developing your own opinions. This is necessary, because this opening is relatively unexplored - like Williams repeats several times. I have changed mine several times, since I picked it up.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #22 - 07/08/05 at 03:43:25
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Right.  Well at the moment I'm going with 7...Ne4 in my games, and so Williams seems to have the best coverage of this, which I'm using, and he's also given me the fundamentals of the opening in clear enough terms for me to get a handle on it.  But I think I will eventually end up playing 7...a5, and for that I'll probably supplement Williams with Pinski - I think that will be the right time for me.  I'm in agreement with Williams' view that 7...Ne4 seems to be the easiest line to learn, but I'm also starting to appreciate the point made by MNb in another thread about the problems associated with allowing one of your pieces to be exchanged off early in the game, when it may be more useful to hold onto it for use in an attack on White's king.  I think this opening lends itself to keeping the pieces on the board for as long as possible.  This is something that is perhaps worth my bearing in mind in all my games - when I used to play the QGD Tartakower I would often aim to exchange down into an endgame and hope to grind out a win with what was left on the board, until I read in John Watson's second 'Strategy' book that contemporary methods of playing the Tartakower often aim to do the opposite of that, i.e. keep the tension by keeping the pieces on, and aim for dynamism rather than an endgame.   I think that now that I have moved to the Dutch this is especially relevant - my tactical play seems to be improving a little, and I'm certainly having more fun with chess lately.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #21 - 07/07/05 at 15:42:03
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Williams is more evangelical about the Dutch, and he's also a lot clearer about what to play and what not to.  Pinski is just a big-arsed old collection of games with ideas flying every which way, annotations firing off in all directions, etc.   

I'm glad I read Williams to start, and I'm glad I've got Pinski now that I've been playing a while.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #20 - 07/07/05 at 03:54:45
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Thanks bravehoptoad.   

Useful info, and nice also to see that someone likes the Pinski book which mostly seems to loiter in the shadows behind Simon Williams' work on the Classical.  I think I'll get myself a copy once I'm done with my other sources.

  
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #19 - 07/06/05 at 14:47:37
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Pinksi thinks 2...d5 and 2...Nf6 are both okay.   

After 2...f5 against McDonald's favorite 3. Bf4, he gives 3...Nf6, 4. e3 e6, 5. Nb5 Bd6! 6. Nxd6+ cxd6, saying "the control over e5 and e4 compensates fully for the loss of the bishop."  Against 3. Bg5 he likes 3...Nf6, 4. Bxf6 exf6, 5. e3 Be6!, and then after developing his Q-side castles long and pushes ...g5.  This line is essentially what McDonald gives for 2...Nf6, by transposition.

Pinski also gives a different way of playing 2...Nf6, namely 3. Bg5 e6, 4. e4, which Williams hates for Black, but after 4...fxe4, 5. Nxe4 Be7 6. Bxf6 Bxf6, 7. Nf3 Nc6, 8. c3 0-0, 9. Bd3 d6, 10. Qc2 h6 11. h4 e5!, Pinski reaches a position that he claims has scored very well for Black in practice.   

Needless to say, Pinski gives a lot of sidelines to all these variations.  I must say, of all the recent Dutch Classical books, Pinski's is my favorite.  The other two are more fun to read through the first time, but Pinski's has more ideas, and I keep going back to it.

I almost regret I'm a 1...e6 player, because I like the way these positions look for Black.  They look complicated, but in an interesting way.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch the most flexible Daring Defen
Reply #18 - 07/06/05 at 03:15:55
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Yes, I think I'd rather avoid the Pirc.  I've been looking at the French lines MNb mentioned, but I still think it might be more logical to just play 1...f5.  I had a look at the 2.Bg5 lines again last night and I think I could get used to them - but as TomR says, 2.Nc3 looks quite tricky.  In Williams book he recommends 2...d5, which kind of emulates a Stonewall, and so I had a quick look at this last night - it seems solid enough, but in McDonald's book he strongly advises against playing 2...d5 and prefers ...Nf6 instead, saying that after 2...d5 Black faces a thankless defensive task with few winning chances.  Williams, on the other hand, is in favour of 2...d5, saying that 2...Nf6 simply allows White an easy route to a small advantage, usually via the doubling of Black's pawns on f6.  Personally I prefer the look of 2...d5 at this stage, although I haven't finished working through the lines yet.  I wonder if anyone could tell me what Pinski's view on this is - his book on the Classical Dutch is the one that's missing from my library at the moment....?
  
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