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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay (Read 10081 times)
bravehoptoad
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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #19 - 07/03/05 at 13:54:34
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Yes, the idea in the Exchange French is that Black can simply develop in an assymetrical way to White and get good counterplay that way.  If White castles K-side, Black castles Q-side, etc.  The central file is easily covered by minor pieces, so the rooks aren't easily exchanged.

In reality, I get less counterplay as Black in the French Exchange than in any of the other French lines I play.  I don't mind this; I like endgames, and people who play the Exchange against me are almost always weaker players.   

But it might fit very well into the idea of a "d4 opening that limits counterplay by Black".  Certainly if you're comparing Black's counterplay in the Dutch to his counterplay in the Exchange French, I'd have to say the Dutch wins hands down.
  
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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #18 - 07/03/05 at 08:51:43
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Unlike the Exchange Slav, Black can get a fair amount of counterplay against the Exchange French.  In most variations of the French, Black looks cramped and limited, but finds ways to break out.  If Black succeeds, then White is in big trouble...
  

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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #17 - 07/02/05 at 23:33:52
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Thanks for explaining to me what  Iljin-Zjenevsky is, I never play the dutch, so I didn't know...

Why wouldn't french fit into "limit counter play for black"? The exchange variation in it might be ideal.
  
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MNb
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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #16 - 07/02/05 at 21:19:15
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TopNotch is getting a bit predictable. Read the first line of Kevin Ludvig's first post again:

"I'm looking to build an opening repertoire around 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay for black."

I don't think the French fits well to this; neither does the Miles Variation 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.d5!?

"because I like the Nge2 lines in the QGD exchange"

So 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 is not really an option either, as KL has a problem after Nf6 intending 3.c4 d5 or b6.
There is no easy way for White to chicken out of the Dutch.
This thread is not meant to debate the Dutch only, so TopNotch may have the last word.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #15 - 07/02/05 at 10:16:55
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As a Kings Pawn Player I think that 1.d4 e6 2.e4! is a very strong move.  Grin

For 1.d4 players looking for something interesting and more in the Queens Pawn spirit against 1.d4 e6, then maybe 2.Nf3 f5 3.d5!? fits the bill.

Tops  Grin
  

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MNb
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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #14 - 07/02/05 at 09:30:05
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The Iljin-Zjenevsky is a subsystem of the Classical Dutch, like the Stonewall, the Alekhine Variation and the Bb4(+) lines. For some reason TopNotch persists to avoid them with 2.Nc3 and 2.Bg5. He keeps on forgetting, that Black also can employ the move orders 1.d4 e6 eventually 2...f5 and 1.d4 d6 eventually 2...f5. This assumes, that Black is willing to play the French or the Pirc. So the choice is Black's.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #13 - 07/02/05 at 08:44:51
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The Iljin is basically the Classical Dutch. Grin

Of course with 2.Nc3 or 2.Bg5 The leningrad, Stonewall and Classical Dutch are all made redundant.

Toppylov  Grin
  

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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #12 - 07/01/05 at 23:09:00
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What's "Iljin-Zjenevsky"? I would like to know an opening where black always has counterplay. 

There is an interesting gambit in exchange slav, 1. d4d5 2.c4c6 3.cxd Nf6!? If white takes, 4.dxc Nxc6 5. e3 e5  black has some pressure on the center, some counter play. If white plays something like 4. Nf3, black can take on d5 with the knight and avoid symmetry. In both cases white is objectevly better, but black has more counterplay than in standard symmetrical line.
  
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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #11 - 07/01/05 at 21:43:13
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I'd like to toss in a word about the Slav Exchange as limiting Black's counterplay.  I studied and have won several nice blitz games as Black using the following opening:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cd5 cd5 4.Nc3 Nf6 (if Nc6?! White can play 5.e4!? and get a good game) 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Bf4 Qb6! Shocked

I don't claim that this is a refutation of the Slav, or even a brave new idea.  Rather, this move forces White to play accurately and actively or risk being over-run.  I don't think there is such a thing as an opening that denies Black counterplay.  Well, there is one:  If you are much higher rated, it's the last round, and your opponent needs a draw for a cash prize, 1.d4 (draw) may do the trick. Roll Eyes
  
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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #10 - 07/01/05 at 21:39:58
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i cannot agree with nimzo 4. Qc2,after 4... d5 (and even 4... c5) game becomes hairy if white wants an edge. and if i'm not mistaken, kevinludwig still wants to win with white. Perhaps 4. e3 is safer, with 5. Nge2 against everything. Even more solid is going for g3/e3 queens indian.

You can try Palliser's Play 1. d4! repertoire, which seems ideal for you. 

to be honest, cannot think of completely safe line against benoni and benko. Position is inherently unbalanced, and fianchetto benoni/benko doesn't limit counterplay as much as fianchetto KID. Palliser's recommendations of 7. Bf4 benoni and b6 benko limit black's counterplay quite abit, but even there  lines can be sharp.

i suppose you are talking about Hebden's 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nc3!?. a good choice too but black has active options like 4... b5!?/?! and 3.... b5 4. Bg5 Ne4 which shows you cannot limit counterplay entirely, and you must have realised this already!  Smiley
  
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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #9 - 07/01/05 at 21:12:06
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Its laudable to want to limit Black's counterplay, but impossible to extinguish it entirely. Grin

Your Fianchetto against the KID is a good choice for the positional player.

Against the Dutch I think 2.Nc3 or 2.Bg5 are good solid choices and although the games can become sharp I think they are easier and more pleasant to play as White.

Against the Nimzo, 4.Qc2 is a safe and solid choice from what I remember.

Against the Queens Gambit you have the annoying risk free exchange variation as you do against the Slav.

Providing you play 3.Nc3 it is not clear that the Benoni is even playable, it all depends on the current status of the Flick Knife Attack, or failing this the set up with an early h3 and Bf4 used to be quite effective.

Against The Budapest 3.Bf4 is safest.
Against the Albin's Counter Gambit 5.Nbd2 has a good solid rep.

Of course I am not a 1.d4 player but some of the choices presented above should be anaemic enough to suit your tastes.  Wink

Toppings Grin   

  

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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #8 - 07/01/05 at 20:52:54
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I should add that if the Black player is hellbent on activity, I'll take those positions also (since I don't have much choice). Take for example, 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5. There's not much that I can do about this, because I like the Nge2 lines in the QGD exchange, so I'll deal with that stuff. As I've said, I just want to pick as many as possible that limit counterplay, without completely sidestepping mainlines. 

As another example of a type of position I'm looking for, there are the benoni lines where black allows the e pawns to be swapped (instead of the black e pawn for the white c pawn). It's my understanding that in these positions, white has less chances than in the 'regular' lines, but black lacks the counterplay that he would normally get also, so he's stuck defending.

The Catalan is one that I hadn't considered. I'll have to look into what types of positions a Catalan gives.
  
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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #7 - 07/01/05 at 20:29:01
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"I'm looking to build an opening repertoire around 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay for black."
This kind of player is exactly the reason I decided to pick up the Iljin-Zjenevsky. In this opening Black always has  counterplay; the only question is if it's enough.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #6 - 07/01/05 at 19:41:13
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Perhaps after 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6, 3 Nf3 or 3 g3 would be in order.  Maybe a Catalan would work, and tie in nicely with a fianchetto against the KID.  I like the Catalan a lot, but it's a very difficult system to learn...
  

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Re: 1. d4 openings that limit counterplay
Reply #5 - 07/01/05 at 19:39:45
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Fair enough, but I see trouble with this plan after 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4.  Black can steer toward his/her favorite Indian and it seems difficult to completely limit Black's counterplay after 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4, for example.  There are quieter lines, to be sure, but Black will surely have some counterplay.  Same goes for the King's Indian after 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7...
  

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