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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ? (Read 18469 times)
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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #22 - 07/18/11 at 22:10:34
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And if you don't have any friends?

That seems to be where chesspub comes in.  Lips Sealed
  
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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #21 - 07/18/11 at 22:07:09
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Someone who plays a good defence to 1.d4 will almost always play a good defence to 1.e4 as well. If you can't decide what to play against 1.e4 then either play some practice games with an opening you are thinking of playing or have a quick look at a book on a given opening. Or, if you are really lazy, get one of your friends to teach you their defence to 1.e4 and start playing it.
  

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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #20 - 07/18/11 at 21:38:25
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MartinC wrote on 07/18/11 at 16:39:50:
Actually the Nimzo is so ubiquitous for strong players, it'd be much more instructive to consider who hasn't played it Smiley

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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #19 - 07/18/11 at 16:39:50
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Umm.... Because its a totally sound way to play get healthy, active piece play? The classically 'closed' Nimzo centers are actually quite specific variations, and certainly not the norm.  And its mainly black who chooses to enter them or not.

In fact you can see how flexible the Nimzo is by considering that some people happily pair it with the 3 Nf3 Modern Benoni and some with the QGD Smiley The QID isn't as flexible.

Actually the Nimzo is so ubiquitous for strong players, it'd be much more instructive to consider who hasn't played it Smiley
  
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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #18 - 07/18/11 at 16:09:10
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Eclectico wrote on 07/17/11 at 23:12:30:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Ndb5 Bb4 is the main line.

It's one of the two main lines. The other one is 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.e5 Nd5 and I strongly doubt if a NID-player will like this.

BPaulsen wrote on 07/18/11 at 04:37:35:
I've heard a ton of different reasonable 1. e4 defenses used by NID players.

It only would be remarkable if it were different.
  

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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #17 - 07/18/11 at 15:15:48
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BPaulsen - I'm not going to comment on the metatheoretical stuff.

French (with Winawer) and NID/3 were my first repertoire, and both revolved around playing against weak squares (c4 in a lot of cases), so I found them compatible.

The C-K fits because it's capable of producing a transposition via the Panov-Botvinnik, and a lot of the light squared themes can be similar.

That's my experience. I've heard a ton of different reasonable 1. e4 defenses used by NID players.


Yes, the French is acceptable with the Nimzo/QID repertoire because of closed structures and positional strategic play. I do not mentioned the French, because I consider the Ruy Lopez in center stage for a player who choose the Nimzo/QID and maybe I put it in third place because in the majority of French positions, Black is trying to open the game and when that happens a burst of energy arise and more sharp situations could occur like the rook sacrifice in f3. 

Model players for Nimzo/QID repertoire are: Capablanca, Petrosian, Karpov, Carlsen, Adams and Kramnik, Leko, Caruana, Gelfand, Botvinnik (yes the French!). It is very easy to see what openings are common to all these players.

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Yes the Nimzo does have the potential of plenty of rigid/closed centers. 

But - at blacks choice! - you can play it perfectly rationally and almost never get a rigid/closed center  You can even, should be the mood take you, arrange to not swap the bishop on c3 against most lines! And you can certainly indulge in some very scary madness. 

If you play the Nimzo to never reach a rigid or closed centre or if you play it to always reach a very scary madness then, why play the Nimzo? There are better options! KID or Grunfeld and they fit much better in the style of Sicilian player. You cannot transform the general characteristics of the Nimzo in something that it is not in is general characteristic. What then means style to you? Something that is always in a player hands besides his opening choices? I understand your point of view but openings are not elastic to put everything in the same bag because if that was the case then we hear people saying that the Caro-Kann is in the same style of Sicilian in those variations of attacking on opposite sides or playing the Tartakower variation of the QGD creating madness in opposite side attack or pieces action on the kingside and these are quiet openings.      

 

  

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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #16 - 07/18/11 at 12:32:35
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MartinC wrote on 07/18/11 at 09:01:15:

You'd have to be really very set in your ways for the Nimzo to be a worry. Now, the 476B787E6364490A05 has rather more of a fixed, relatively solid character, and could be a style issue for some people.

Oh, the Sicillian/Hedgehog like lines are stuff like 4 Qc2 c5, 3 Nf3 b6 4 a3 Ba6 ^ Bb7,c5 etc.  Closer in feel to the e6 Sicillian stuff than anything else vs 1 d4 I'd think.


I couldn't agree more.  I didn't take up the Sicilian untill after I had played the NID/Ragozin for a couple years.  I tend to favor more active lines with an early Ne4 and early d5 gambits.  I find my NID repertoire is a tad sharper than my 4 knights sicilian, but both have the same themes - devlope rapidly, flick in Bb4, push d5 AND c5 whenever possible to dismantle white's center.   

I have been debating changing my english repertoire to the 1...c5 2...Nf6 3...e6 lines precisely because it is such a perfect fit with Bb4 vs. Nc3 in the english and with the hedgehog setup vs. the maroczy lines of the e6 sicilians.
  
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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #15 - 07/18/11 at 09:01:15
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Yes the Nimzo does have the potential of plenty of rigid/closed centers. 

But - at blacks choice! - you can play it perfectly rationally and almost never get a rigid/closed center Smiley You can even, should be the mood take you, arrange to not swap the bishop on c3 against most lines! And you can certainly indulge in some very scary madness.   

You'd have to be really very set in your ways for the Nimzo to be a worry. Now, the QID has rather more of a fixed, relatively solid character, and could be a style issue for some people.

Oh, the Sicillian/Hedgehog like lines are stuff like 4 Qc2 c5, 3 Nf3 b6 4 a3 Ba6 ^ Bb7,c5 etc.  Closer in feel to the e6 Sicillian stuff than anything else vs 1 d4 I'd think.
  
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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #14 - 07/18/11 at 04:37:35
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I'm not going to comment on the metatheoretical stuff.

French (with Winawer) and NID/QID were my first repertoire, and both revolved around playing against weak squares (c4 in a lot of cases), so I found them compatible.

The C-K fits because it's capable of producing a transposition via the Panov-Botvinnik, and a lot of the light squared themes can be similar.

That's my experience. I've heard a ton of different reasonable 1. e4 defenses used by NID players.
  

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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #13 - 07/18/11 at 01:02:34
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Um, its very possible to play the Nimzo/6 pretty much in the style of at least some Sicilians (Hedgehogish stuff). Probably more so than anything else vs 1 d4 in fact.


I do not know what is to play a Nimzo/QID like a Sicilian Rauzer or Scheveningen because the characteristics needed in terms of style are completely diferent. In that way, everything is possible and you can say that it is possible to play a Caro-Kann like a Sicilian (attack on opposite sides)when they are again very diferent openings in style. It is not possible to put all openings in the same bag for the simple reason that they have diferent characteristics. It is important to know the diferent styles and the openings that belong to each one when choosing openings or building a repertoire. Hedgehog positions from Sicilian to English or Nimzo/QID have diferent characteristics and could not be placed in the same bag of style. Sicilians are sharp openings that demand concrete calculations and Nimzo/QID is a solid opening for a sistematic logical thread. Sicilians are for the ones who are willing to take risks. These are characteristics of styles and there are several others. 

Quote:
They're very flexible openings indeed. If you restricted the question to specific ways to play the Nimzo/7 then it might make a little more sense 


Flexible is a characteristic of certain openings but what gives an ilustration of styles other than certain important characteristics is for example structure: Dynamic centre, mobile or open and on the other hand rigid centre 
or closed. An opening could have diferent types of structures but the important point is the general characteristic, the common type that is more characteristic of a certain style and not one particular variation that leads to a type of structure that is not a common type in that opening. The transition from opening to middlegame is very important, because some types of positions will suit you while others not. Players are divided by styles too and top players can play everything but each player belongs to a certain style and only several openings belong to that style and not all openings they could play. Sicilian belongs to Open (general), Dynamic (specific) or Mobile centre (specific) in transition from opening to middlegame and although Dynamic and Mobile centre could be specific in Nimzo, Rigid and Closed centre are the general characteristics that you cannot find in Sicilian, thats why certain openings because of diferent and general characteristics belong to diferent types of style. I do not had restricted the question to specific ways to play the Nimzo/QID, on the contrary, I restricted the question to the general characteristics typical of each opening. Magnus Calsen for example is a reflector in style like Karpov or Adams and the Ruy Lopez, Nimzo/QID are the openings that belong to the roots of their style if you look at them together finding their common openings. Of course he plays everything, Grunfelds, Sicilians, KIDS and whatever under the sun, but the ones that belong only to the roots of his style are there.  Smiley         

  

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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #12 - 07/17/11 at 23:12:30
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Mortal Games wrote on 07/17/11 at 16:42:58:


In my view, the only choices that belong to the same style of Nimzo (thinking in General Concepts) are: Ruy Lopez, Ruy Lopez Closed, Berlin or Petrov and Caro-Kann if you like endings. Sicilian do not belong to the same style and it is more about facts and calculations and more about playing the KID or Grunfeld...


Not all Sicilians are so tactical.  The 4 knights Sicilian is an excellent fit for the amateur NID player seeking a "solid" yet active game.  Unlike the open games, you can force pawn structure imbalances (as in the nimzo).  Unlike the Caro, black gets early game piece play (as in the nimzo).   

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Ndb5 Bb4 is the main line.  Not only is the bishop on b4, but black qets in a quick d5.  95% of your opponents will deviate on move 5 or 6, allowing black easy equality with Bb4 and an early d5.  The center gets liquidated and black has active piece play (as in the nimzo).
  
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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #11 - 07/17/11 at 22:57:17
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My nominees are
* 1..e6 (French), as it can be played universally and because play in the Winawer also has certain similarities with the Nimzo.
* the positional (and more complex) ..e6-Sicilians such as the Paulsen (Kan and Taimanov, also featuring ..Bb4 and ..Bxc3+ moves in certain cases), are maybe better suited for a player of the NID, especially if he likes throwing in early ..c5s, and complex play.
* the Ruy Lopez and even the Caro-Kann cannot be excluded from the list, either. 
It all depends how you prefer to play the NID.
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #10 - 07/17/11 at 17:43:23
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Um, its very possible to play the Nimzo/QID pretty much in the style of at least some Sicilians (Hedgehogish stuff). Probably more so than anything else vs 1 d4 in fact.

They're very flexible openings indeed. If you restricted the question to specific ways to play the Nimzo/QID then it might make a little more sense Smiley
  
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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #9 - 07/17/11 at 16:42:58
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Quote:
I am very curious to hear from chess players who are Nimzoindian addicts, what they play against e4?
Or from experts, what they consider would fit from the point of style to somebody who likes the Nimzoindian against d4?


Because you see a huge range of styles playing the Nimzo or top players playing it, doesn´t mean that everything could fit because top players expand their styles to reach universal style sometimes and not all openings really fit the style of the nimzo player. Top players who play all openings in all styles are not a model for you, but only the natural choices that belong to the Nimzo player style or are very near that style and this means only several openings because looking at top players could sometimes raise confusion and wrong conclusions. In my view, the only choices that belong to the same style of Nimzo (thinking in General Concepts) are: Ruy Lopez, Ruy Lopez Closed, Berlin or Petrov and Caro-Kann if you like endings. Sicilian do not belong to the same style and it is more about facts and calculations and more about playing the KID or Grunfeld, but if you want to be universal player go for it, but the better results will always be on the roots of our style!

You will never be able to
play well variations or openings
that don't suit you.
  

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Re: What do Nimzoindian players against e4 ?
Reply #8 - 07/15/11 at 16:15:32
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Nimzo/QID just so, so flexible in general (and good) that you'll find a huge range of styles playing it and thus the same for the 'paired' openings. Especially with the top players playing basically everything now.

At most you'd maybe a see a slight tendency towards relatively classical play, but then you sort of see that with nearly all the top players anyway Wink

Karpov for the Caro, and sundry top players for the Nardojf (as thats just a good opening too!).
  
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