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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ??? (Read 7791 times)
lnn2
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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #13 - 08/13/05 at 21:07:30
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Here is my experience from the White side:

1. Maybe i've been too influenced by Flear's updates without thinking much for myself. But the Blumenfeld seems reasonable for Black nowadays, and quite messy. Would prefer to avoid it as White if possible. 

2. Of course 2. Nf3 is a good move, but that also means White has to play the Queen's Indian (if he doesn't want a London/Torre). I think Black has MANY underrated resources in the Queen's Indian, much more so than the Nimzo (which is by far more narrow and forced). Preparing the White side of the QI is more time-consuming, but not necessarily more promising than facing the Nimzo.   Undecided
  
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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #12 - 08/13/05 at 19:59:40
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I actually switched from the benko to the king's indian because I hated playing against Nf3
  
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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #11 - 08/13/05 at 19:36:14
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Let's not get carried away.  2 Nf3 is a perfectly sensible second move, flexible and applying pressure on the center of the board.  Is it possible that some players, rather than being afraid of a particular opening (I'm generally afraid of players, not the openings they play), prefer to play for a win in the middlegame rather than in the opening?  To suggest that 2 Nf3 inevitably leads to passive play is ludicrous.  At the same time, bluntness is not always a particularly becoming trait in a chess player.

This is a fantastic forum, but I think we frequently get a little too carried away with the first five or ten or fifteen moves in a chess game.  I'm not sure that equality guarantees any player in the world a draw or a minor disadvantage ensures one cannot win.  There's plenty of chess left on the board after 2 Nf3, and while the second player may not need to worry in the short term about holding off a strong onslaught, I'm always amused by the people who complain that they're bound to get a boring game.  Is it a boring game, or one where you didn't get to play your pet opening?  A boring game or one in which you are less comfortable?  Chess always holds some kind of interest for me; it's the lazy player who dismisses some positions as dull or uninteresting.  Some of the most interesting games I've played have been draws...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #10 - 08/13/05 at 19:30:18
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Ditto the above and then some...

Luckily, chess is not checkers/draughts.  In the opening, creating flexibility is a virtue of its own.  If there is no concrete reason to prefer one move over another, then 2.c4 is clearly better than 2.Nf3.  However, if you know your opponent plays only the Budapest, go ahead and play 2.Nf3!

I never understood this attitude. I played and still do occassionally play the Budapest. However I think that white should be welcoming it rather then avoiding it. If played correctly by both it gives white a slight edge (with little chance for a black win), however it is in a non-typical d4 position. So I dont see why you would want to avoid the Budapest, especially against equal or stronger opposition. Against weaker opponents it may be a pain, when they know what they are doing (ie playing d6 at the right time).
My own experience is that when white is a stronger (200 points more) player he tries to punish me and overreach (they play the Bf4 variation and try to attack with pawns later), which is why in my 4 games last year I never lost but drew. When he is equal I dont get anywhere and have a negative score.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #9 - 08/13/05 at 16:01:36
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After 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3, my opponent has just shown me that he is not a free-swinging, hard-nosed fighter.  He's holding back.  He's being cautious and safe.  He's waiting.  Above all, as Willempie, alumbrado, and TopNotch have said, he's avoiding certain openings.  That's right, he has shown me that he is afraid of something.  Afraid of the Benko; afraid of the Albin-counter gambit, afraid of the Budapest, etc., etc.

I'm not saying that 2.Nf3 is a bad move.  It is a good move.  But, I am saying that white has signaled that he may not be a hard hitting aggressive animal.  He's like a boxer who cautiously goes to the center of the ring when the bell sounds and takes a defensive posture, but does not throw the first punch.  He waits.  He avoids.  The real killers will play 2.c4 or even 2.Bg5, like Mike Tyson in the old days, charging right across the ring directly at you as soon as the bell sounds. Avoiding nothing, just throwing punches with bad intentions.

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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #8 - 08/13/05 at 14:33:27
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First and foremost 2.Nf3 avoids the Nimzo, you will have to play something else, incidentally it also avoids the Benko.

Now that I think about it 2.Nf3 avoids the Budapest and Albin's Counter Gambit as well.

Conclusion: 2.Nf3 is often used by Whites' in an attempt to cut down on the amount of preparation needed to play 1.d4 effectively.

Tops  Grin
  

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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #7 - 08/13/05 at 11:23:32
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I have just looked at some of my old games where I wanted to enter a Nimzo and got 2.Nc3 or 2.Nf3: after 10 moves in all games the same position: I (black) with d5 + e6, white with d4 + c3 - awfully (boring)! 2.Bg5 isn`t better at all.
  
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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #6 - 08/12/05 at 11:05:24
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Ditto the above and then some...

Luckily, chess is not checkers/draughts.  In the opening, creating flexibility is a virtue of its own.  If there is no concrete reason to prefer one move over another, then 2.c4 is clearly better than 2.Nf3.  However, if you know your opponent plays only the Budapest, go ahead and play 2.Nf3!
  
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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #5 - 08/12/05 at 10:58:45
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"Is 2.Nf3 serious enough to make your opening decision depending from it?"
To answer this question, one must decide what kind of play one expects. If you want to play the objectively best moves, then my answer is no. I do not think 2.Nf3 is superior to 2.c4 and do not know anyone who thinks so.
At the other hand I want to create winning chances as Black, if White plays some dull setup. So I must take some risk, which automatically implies, that White's chances for an advantage also improve.
To make myself clear: it would be foolish to say, that the Dutch is superior to the Nimzo-Indian (or several other respectable Black defenses) because of 2.Nf3. Still I prefer the first. The reason can be found in a statement made by draughts ex WCh Harm Wiersma: one must not always play the best move, but sometimes the move that creates most chances.
  

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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #4 - 08/12/05 at 10:27:37
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2.Nf3 gives White independent options against the Modern Benoni (2...c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 or 2...e6 3.c4 c5 4.Nc3/4.g3, transposing to the English, while avoiding the line 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5!?, which is discussed elsewhere on the Forum); and the Benko (2...c5 3.d5 b5 4.Bg5!?), none of which will necessarily be to the taste of the second player.
  

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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #3 - 08/12/05 at 09:25:50
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2 Nf3 is not bad it is just that if you intend to play c4 it is a lot less flexible. Ok you avoid the Nimzo (which you also can do at move 3) and the budapest/Albin, but on the other hand you lose a lot of options ranging from the more agressive options from the QGD exchange to the KI. Not to mention most black players who play a Nimzo are willing to go into a QI anyway.

So of course you have to consider it, but it is less flexible than at move 3. Basically the only repertoire impacted by playing it second move are the ones playing Budapest and I suspect many of those will turn the tables on you by playing 2 .. b5 (I did that often after everybody started avoiding the Budapest).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #2 - 08/12/05 at 09:03:03
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I dont want to hide my personal opinion. So far (maybe I change my mind) I think that 2.Nf3 is something that seriously has to be considered when deciding for either this or that answer to d4.
If I would consider of taking up the Nimzo as repertoire to d4 and let`s say, I have another, second choice (1..f5?), then I would maybe prefer the alternative because of 2.Nf3. While the move dont seems to be particularly dangerous, it tends to lead to boring thickblooded positional fights. And I better accept a White edge then positions I dont like/understand.
That`s why 2.Nf3 is for me a reason to ignore the Benoni (Nimzo).
  
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Re: 1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
Reply #1 - 08/12/05 at 08:36:37
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I had the idea to this topic after reading the thread of one guest in the Nimzo-section.

Somebody builds up his repertoire against 1.d4 and considers the Nimzo, Queens Gambit etc.

Is 2.Nf3 serious enough to make your opening decision depending from it? (arguing that you better take the Dutch instead of the Nimzo to avoid a positional kind of game)

Black seems to be equal right away with it, so from the point of a white edge you should never meet 2.Nf3. But as a fact in internet blitz games I meet it very often. And one of my friends is too lazy to learn theory, he plays it all the times, but he is rated impressing 2300 !

Is 2.Nf3 a point that has to be considered or not when deciding for your main answer to d4  ???


No, 2. Nf3 is a perfectly serious move and White in no way sacrifices his += birthright.  Of course, he does commit himself to certain systems and not others.  Just to state the obvious, he can no longer play a Saemisch or 4 Pawns Attack against the KID; nor a Switch Blade (American for "Flick Knife") against the Benoni; nor, of course, any system with the King's Knight on e2.

  

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1.d4 - how serious is 2.Nf3 ???
08/12/05 at 05:45:29
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I had the idea to this topic after reading the thread of one guest in the Nimzo-section.

Somebody builds up his repertoire against 1.d4 and considers the Nimzo, Queens Gambit etc.

Is 2.Nf3 serious enough to make your opening decision depending from it? (arguing that you better take the Dutch instead of the Nimzo to avoid a positional kind of game)

Black seems to be equal right away with it, so from the point of a white edge you should never meet 2.Nf3. But as a fact in internet blitz games I meet it very often. And one of my friends is too lazy to learn theory, he plays it all the times, but he is rated impressing 2300 !

Is 2.Nf3 a point that has to be considered or not when deciding for your main answer to d4  ???
  
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