Poll
Poll Question: What is the most exciting gambit?
bars   pie

Muzio (KG)    
  3 (10.3%)
Pierce (Vienna)    
  0 (0.0%)
Fajarowicz (Budapest)    
  2 (6.9%)
Traxler (Two Knights)    
  6 (20.7%)
Sicilian Wing Gambit    
  1 (3.4%)
Marshall Attack (Ruy Lopez)    
  2 (6.9%)
Monster Attack (Vienna)    
  2 (6.9%)
Benko Gambit    
  5 (17.2%)
French Wing Gambit    
  1 (3.4%)
Evans Gambit (Giucco Piano)    
  7 (24.1%)




Total votes: 29
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Greatest Gambit (Read 14049 times)
alumbrado
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #16 - 09/12/05 at 03:24:16
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It has to be the Traxler for sheer unfathomability.

I would say that there are lines of the Catalan which get pretty wild, too, but I fear I would get laughed down ...  Undecided
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #15 - 09/12/05 at 03:20:32
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Castlerock, 

The Queen's gambit was already my pick for greatest gambit of all time!  Grin
  
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castlerock
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #14 - 09/12/05 at 03:11:31
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Quote:
you could add the Milner-Barry gambit in the French advance, the Morra-gambit, the BDG, the Marshall gambit, the cochrane gambit, the benko gambit, the scottish gambit, etc.


And Queens Gambit Wink

I voted for French Wings Gambit in the hope that more and more players would play against me Tongue
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #13 - 09/12/05 at 01:30:47
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MNB, 

You may be interested to know that I have my students work out the game, including 6...d5! (forced) that scholar mentions until well after move 8. without moving the pieces!  My student's usually pick 8.h4 or 8.d4 and can work out most of the lines to mate.  These are poor little 1400-1600 rated students, and not some high powered GMs.  Then again, I have my students work hard on visualization techniques and attacking rather than learning opening lines.

I once had a rated game go like this (I was White):  1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 Bg4 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.Ne5!? Bxd1?? 6.Bxf7#.  Was 5.Ne5 a gambit? I don't really think so.

  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #12 - 09/11/05 at 23:36:35
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Quote:
OK, what about this one? 
1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 f5 4.exf5! 
 
and its little sister? 
1.e4 e6 2.d4 b6 3.c4 Bb7 4.Bd3 f5 4.exf5!


I agree that the first line is refuted tacticaly, but in the second one, Black is fine!

1.e4 e6 2.d4 b6 3.c4 Bb7 4.Bd3 f5 5.exf5 Bxg2 6.Qh5+ g6 7.fxg6 Bg7 8.gxh7+ Kf8 9.hxg8D+ Kxg8 10.Qg4 Bxh1

and I prefer the Black side.
  
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #11 - 09/11/05 at 22:49:48
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If you can calculate 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Nxe5! to the end behind the board, chapeau. I take my hat off for you. A certain Daniel Boros was not capable of this. The whole point of RS' famous book is exactly, that this is NOT necessary.


Well, if Black plays 3...fxe5 it's clear that White gets at least three pawns and a terrifying attack for the piece.  Maybe it takes a couple of minutes to work things out completely, but that's enough to tell me that this is not a real sacrifice.  I think Spielmann would agree with me here.  Real sacrifices don't lead to forced mating sequences!

It took me a minute to find the following disaster -- MNb is referencing a game Boros-Bordas, both players with ELO>2000, which went

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Nxe5 fxe5 4.Qh5+ Ke7 5.Qxe5+ Kf7 6.Bc4+ d5 7.Bxd5+ Kg6 8.f4 h6 9.f5+ Kh7 10.0-0 Nf6 11.Bf7 Rg8 12.d3 Bd6 13.Qc3 Nc6 14.Bf4 Rf8 (0-1, 44 moves) if you believe the database.  I'm a bit skeptical.  Set aside 8.f4 (h4 is much better), 9.f5 (Bxb7 is curtains), and even 10.0-0 (aren't we attacking here?).  What expert-strength player lets the rook sit there on moves 12-14 without playing Bxg8+?
  
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MNb
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #10 - 09/11/05 at 21:36:55
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@Smyslov_Fan: maybe You should restudy The art of sacrifice.  8) I quote, in German:
"Meistens dienen Opfern jedoch der Vergrößerung bereits bestehender Vorteile und eignen daher ganz besonders zur Ausnützung gegnerische Fehler."
"Im Gegensatz zu den Scheinopfern, wo die Ziele klar zutage liegen, sind die Ziele der wirklichen Opfer unbestimmt, das Ergebnis ruht im dunklen Schoße der Zukunft und läßt sich höchstens vorausahnen."
If you can calculate 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Nxe5! to the end behind the board, chapeau. I take my hat off for you. A certain Daniel Boros was not capable of this. The whole point of RS' famous book is exactly, that this is NOT necessary.
Your argument only leads to the conclusion, that sacrifices equals unsound tactics and combinations equals sound tactics. This is unhandy and precisely not what RS meant:
"Ich wollte über richtige und unrichtige Opfer sprechen".
So I maintain, that 3.Nxe5 is a gambit.

OK, what about this one?
1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 f5 4.exf5!

and its little sister?
1.e4 e6 2.d4 b6 3.c4 Bb7 4.Bd3 f5 4.exf5!

Gambit of just a mere combo? Opfer oder Scheinopfer?

"The Evans Gambit can't be avoided without giving white other good options."
I always thought 3...Nf6 a very reliable move. In fact it is the reason, I never have accepted the gift of the gods. But before we start to discuss the merits of White's 4th move, I must refer to several threads in the Open Games category.
  

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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #9 - 09/11/05 at 16:23:47
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Muzio - Look decent enough but if black knows the lines he may get a draw without stepping outside of theory and black is likely to know at least some thoery if he accepts.

3/5 (booked opponent likely)

Pierce - Similar to Muzio but better since Black is less likely to know theory and it hasn't been explored to a forced conclusion. If I could count on black to accept I might even play as a suprise weapon but alas 2..Nf6 Vienna does not promise white much. I would continue 7.Qxf3 and not 7.0-0? and I think white is lost. 

3/5 (Good early deviation for black)

Fajarowicz - Don't know much about it but seems  dodgy to me. NCO gives +/- at best.

1/5 (+/- is too much to concede against a prepared or skilled opponent)

Traxler - What's wrong with the main line of the 4.Ng5 two knights. It is a (sounder) gambit and it doesn't involve losing castling rights.

2/5 (Would be higher but you have a better gambit alternative)

Sicilian Wing Gambit - It has never troubled me. But white does have compensation for the pawn and it avoids a (mind numbingly massive) bit a sicilian theory while posing unique problems for black.

4.5/5 (Not bad. Booked opponent unlikely, saves a lot of work, original play)

Lisitsin - I think any dutch player would be prepared to go for one of the established equal lines against a gambit on move two but it does provide play that is different from the main line dutch.

3/5 (Booked opponent likely but provides original play)

Frankenstein-Dracula- Ok as a gambit for black. White might chicken out and just allow equality but if I were playing the vienna I would know this line rather well in which case black's life is tough, but in the chaos he might find equality or advantage after a white inaccuracy.

3/5 (Life is hard against a prpared opponent but as a black gambit provides lots of chaos)

Danish - Any gambit which Black can decline and have an advantage is no gamit for me.

2/5 (Can be favorably declined)

French Wing Gambit - Inferior to its sicilian cousin. If you don't like early sidelines play the French. There are no good early deviations against the French. (There are drawish ones though)

2/5 (Original play but black has the edge since white's attack isn't all that great.)

Evans Gambit - "a gift of the gods to a languishing chess world" Well thats a pretty good recommendation. For those who are good at tactics and willing to study the Evans is a nice choice and in my opinion definitely the best of the bunch since it a)provides a decent amount of compensation b) ain't a one trick wonder c)has no simple bust d) can't be declined with advantage and e) can't be avoided without giving white other good options. Has my vote.
(5/5 See above)

Note I was slightly harsher when looking at gambits for white.

However, in a list of best gambits you forgot to list .. well the best gambits.

Marshall Attack- The day Krammik loses in a classical world championship game to the BDG is the day I'll give it as much espect as I give the Marshall. If getting your gambit is a qualification then FD, Pierce and Muzio should not be on the list.

Benko - A gambit where your initiative stays into the endgame? How could that not be good. Granted white can decline or give it back for good play but I'd still have it on the list.

The Scotch Game - Kasparov won with it and if his opponent played 4...Qh4 I'm sure he'd win even more.

The Blumenfeld - It's decent enough if white were the gambiteer but as it so happens, black is, making it one of the best.

The Exchange Grunfeld Main Line - There's a reason this is considered one of the most critical tests against the Grunfeld. Actually there's more than one way black can win a pawn. (And suffer)

The King's Indian Bayonet Attack Main Line - The phrase "main line" appended to a major opening indicates that a gambit is probably sound though I suppose if you counted these then the entire list would be filled with main lines.

The Catalan - If white does not immediately win the pawn back with the queen then this entire opening is a long term gambit. It's not like the queens gambit where the Bc1 essentially forces black to give the pawn back.

The 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 Marshall Gambit.

Actually, there's quite a bit of other good gambits I can think of but I have to mow the lawn now.
  
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #8 - 09/11/05 at 16:01:57
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MNb, 

Since Rudolf Spielmann is your idol, I am truly disappointed in you.  Wink You of all people should know the difference between a sacrifice and a combo.  If Black accepts the material, he gets killed, and there's lots of blood.  If he declines the Knight, he still gets into deep trouble, so it aint a gambit.  It's a combination which proves 2...f6 unsound.   

Oh, yeah, I know about that guy who surprised Fischer in a simul ( I think he may have gotten away with it twice), but even he didn't take the N.  So, it's not a gambit or sac, just a combinational refutation of 2...f6.

Btw, to add to the 1.d4 sac list:  There's the Meran, von Henig-Schara, Slav, Bronstein variation of the Saemisch (in which Black sacs a queen in the opening!), Catalan, and on, and on, and on.   

And then there are the gambits in the English!  Sheesh! Shocked
  
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MNb
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #7 - 09/11/05 at 15:48:45
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The true Queen's Gambit - those lines, in which Black takes on c4 and White does not regain the pawn, but plays e2-e4 instead - belongs to the best too.
The best gambit is probably the piece sac in the Damiano Defense: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6? 3.Nxe5.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #6 - 09/11/05 at 15:29:46
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Have you noticed a certain, shall we say, "bias" against d4 gambits?  How about the Botvinnik Variation, which generally requires one side or another to give up material?

Or what about the Geller Gambit?  It's actually been played by world champions, and is a true gambit.

For best gambit (perhaps not most exciting), of course there's always the Queen's Gambit.  Oh well.
  
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #5 - 09/11/05 at 14:09:50
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Some other good gambits, as their names indicate:
Najdorf Poisoned Pawn and Winawer Poisoned Pawn. 

(When will BDG change name to BDPP?)
  
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #4 - 09/11/05 at 11:52:38
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Putting the BDG in this poll is not that illogical, because it's in a twilling zone between the worst and the best. I would say that it's maybe the best of "worst" gambit, but I could not say that it is better than any other good gambit, but it deserve somes respect.

I would say that the Marshall is the best. The From gambit (1..e5)against 1.f4 is good also, but White can enter themself in a good gambit, the king gambit with 2.e4

The Staunton gambit is also not bad against the Dutch defense. There is also the Albin Counter-Gambit.
  
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #3 - 09/11/05 at 11:33:50
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I'm not sure the Lisitsin really belongs on the list of potentially great gambits (3...Nc6!).

But as to the complaints as to missing gambits, there are so many great and/or exciting gambits (some of which might not even have official names) that it's really difficult to select just a few anway.
  
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Re: Greatest Gambit
Reply #2 - 09/11/05 at 11:20:01
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Since there are only ten options, I wanted to keep only the very best gambit's. The chances of getting a Marshall attack are now extremely slim and to include the BDG when I've just put it in a poll of the worst gambit's would be contradictory.
  
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