9.Nd2 is its own species.  The main idea of 9.Nd2 is to play a very fast c4-c5.  White doesn't really want to waste time on b2-b4 unless he has to, but with best play from both sides he often does have to play b2-b4.

There's quite a wealth of information on 9.Nd2.  Again, I refer to the other sources on the KID, and want to add one more that I bought just hours ago.  John Watson's Mastering the Chess Openings vol 2 is an excellent addition to my chess opening library.  Watson discusses the current trends in the KID and devotes more than 20  pages to 9.Ne1 and then some more to 9.Nd2.  I recommend this book very highly to someone who is trying to learn QP opening theory!

This is mostly addressing "rybka".

In Russian, it would translate to "little fish" not little bird.

While the inventor is American and the name is Slavic, his website has a German translator.  I haven't seen anywhere where teh machine is registered under a specific nation, but "American" is as good a guess as any.

RE: 9.Ne1 vs 9.b4...

I don't know whether one move takes more courage than another.  Both variations allow Black to attack.  If you really hate being attacked, you could try 9.Ne1 10.f3 and 11.g4.

I tried this only once, but it was against an FM and we locked up our pawns and I forced a 50 move draw on move 68.  (That's my all time shortest 50 move draw.  Does anyone have a shorter one that they actually played in a serious tournament?)

Right now, with Kramnik in the ascendancy, I guess that 9.b4 is White's most popular response below about 2300 elo.  It seems that most GMs don't even allow the Mar del Plata to arise and play something less topical instead.

(Yeah, I do consider the Mar del Plata to be the sharpest thematic test of the King's Indian idea.)

Dji wrote on 07/02/07 at 13:19:01:


Oh, I don't know about that.  I have a hunch that if anyone agreed that 9. Ne1 and 10. Be3 busted Black's game, it would be seen much more at high levels OTB.  There is no shortage of brave players, willing to master reams of theory, at the GM level.  Therefore I assume that Black has his resources.  I agree that the line is difficult to play OTB, which is a discouragement to those who don't want to learn the theory.  But I don't agree that "OTB is another game." 

Markovich wrote on 07/02/07 at 12:54:25:


For a while I played 9. Ne1 followed by Be3, the most macho method of confronting the King's Indian.  But having to worry about being mated even after my game was "strategically won" eventually wore me out.  Nowadays I prefer 7. Be3 to 7. 0-0.  Still, if you don't mind giving your opponent the king attack that every KID player slavers over, by all means play 9. Ne1.  You'll win many games if you study up on 9...Nd7  10. Be3 f5  11. f3 f4  12. Bf2 g4  13. a4.  You'll also get mated a few times, I predict.

One of the key things to remember in this variation is that it's worth the exchange to eliminate Black's c8 bishop.  Having done that you can just stonewall on the kingside, reacting to ...g4-g3 with h2-h3.  Most Black's understand that, of course. [/quote]

Yes you 've right .There's last years White's results are very good in the line 9...Nd7 10.Be3  F5 11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g4 13.a4 and in the line 13.Rc1!? (instead of a4). take a look at some games of ICCF world champions Ivan Bern and Christophe Léotard. But it's correspondance chess and these lines are not easy to master in practice.
OTB chess is another game.

cma6 wrote on 07/02/07 at 00:36:18:


For a while I played 9. Ne1 followed by Be3, the most macho method of confronting the King's Indian.  But having to worry about being mated even after my game was "strategically won" eventually wore me out.  Nowadays I prefer 7. Be3 to 7. 0-0.  Still, if you don't mind giving your opponent the king attack that every KID player slavers over, by all means play 9. Ne1.  You'll win many games if you study up on 9...Nd7  10. Be3 f5  11. f3 f4  12. Bf2 g4  13. a4.  You'll also get mated a few times, I predict.

One of the key things to remember in this variation is that it's worth the exchange to eliminate Black's c8 bishop.  Having done that you can just stonewall on the kingside, reacting to ...g4-g3 with h2-h3.  Most Black's understand that, of course.

I wasn't fond of the Gligorich book.  It seemed more like a vanity release than one that was supposed to teach us how to play the Mar del Plata Variation (after 7...Nc6 8.d5).  For the most modern way to play the Bayonet Attack, check out Opening for White according to Kramnik, and then look at game that have been played more recently.

For 9.Ne1, I don't know of a book that is more up to date than Nunn's two volumes on the King's Indian.  However, I know that's out of date, especially when Black plays 9...Ne8 and a5.   

I know there are articles out there, including here at the Chess Pub.  But the best bet would still be to create your own database and come up with ideas at home.  The basic ideas behind the Mar del Plata haven't changed that much in the last few years, but Black's defenses have definitely improved.  This has been due to the hard work of a few young GMs and their German friends.  (Why does it seem that the best programs are made in Germany?  Is Rybka German too?)

kevinludwig wrote on 02/15/06 at 01:48:26:



20. Qc2    Nf6 !

This is my improvement for Black and I think this calls into question the whole assesment.  Black certainly messes things up completely and seeks very active and dangerous play.

21. Nc7 

(21. Nxf4 Nxf4) 
(21. Bxa7 Bxg4 22. Bxg4 Nxg4) 

21...    Bxg4 
22. Nxa8   

[22. Bxg4 Nxg4 23. Nxa8 Qxa8 24. Nb4 f3 25. g3 Nf6 26. Rfe1 

(26. Rae1 Qd8 -
with the idea of invading the K side by the light squares and hitting a5 at
the same time.- 27. Qa4 e4 {27... Qc8} 28. Bxa7 Qc8) 

26... e4 

Again, Black acquires a lot of play and things are messy chances are in the air for grabs,
but White has to walk carefully since Black relies on attack on the K-side still.]

22...       Bxe2 
23. Qxe2 e4 
24. Nb4 e3 
25. Be1 

(25. Bxe3 fxe3 26. Qxe3 Qxa8) 

25...   Qxa8
26. Rc1 b6 

{Targeting the weak d5.} 

27. axb6 axb6 

{Things might not be so  clear but certainly there is no clear advantage for White and there might be a
lot of play left in this position for both sides.} 

{For example--} 

28. Rc3 (28.Qd3 Ne5) 28... Qa5 29. Ra3 Qc5 

It has been a while since I have seen movement in the Classical section of KID here in the forum.  I am glad for the return of interest.



Long live the King's Indian Defense  !

Kevin, 

Thanks for your analysis.  When I saw 13.Ng6 followed by Kh8 for Black, I was sure that White must be better.  Now that I know that the old Nb5 idea (seen prominently way back in the 1980s in a game between Korchnoi and Hulak) doesn't always work, it's good to see that central development along the lines of Nd3 (as Taimanov tried to demonstrate in some early KIDs) is a good response to the relatively slow kingside development of Ng6 and Kh8.  Your analysis makes sense tactically and positionally.  So I wonder what's wrong with it!

By the way, I think you were exactly right to criticise 17.b4 in photophore's line.  But I'm glad to see you haven't given up on the idea of Nb5 (this time on move 18) just yet!

@photophore:

Well...it seems like white played sort of poorly here. For instance, he played b4 but never got around to playing c5, and played the Kh1/Bf2-g1-f2 trick, which looked cool when I saw Korchnoi get away with it, but always seems to get me mashed in 5 minute games. Isn't 17. c5 the normal move here? 

I checked chessbase online, I just found a game that seems very good for black after 17. c5. The game was drawn by perpetual, but I wonder if black has a cruncher:

17. c5 g4 18. c6 g3 19. hxg3 fxg3 20. Bxg3 Nh5 21. Bf2 bxc6 22. Nxc6 Qg5, and now white played 23. g4, when 23. ...Nhf4 led to a draw by perpetual. I just wonder if black has something better after 23. g4, or If white has something better than g4.

Ok, my faith in 15. Nb5 is shaken, so I look for a confidence builder. Usually this comes in the form of the question, "What would Korchnoi do in this position?" So after a search on chessbase online, I come to the realization that Korchnoi has never played 15. Nb5. That seems like trouble to me, since I'm fairly certain that at some point Korchnoi must have faced 14. ...Kh8. So I look into it: what exactly does Korchnoi play instead? Now my search brings out all the big names. 15. Nd3 is the preferred move of Korchnoi, Shirov, Nielsen, etc. Maybe 15. Nb5 is simply too dangerous?

Well when a way is decided ill have to change defence, as it wouldnt be fun to have a plan in the midst of chaos!

I was going over this variation the other day and i must say if i was white i would try everything in my power to stop a kings indian player from playing f4! They may attain counter play on the queens side but the benefit of the Kings Indian player is that he or she is attacking whites king not the king side! So in theory it wouldnt matter if white nabbed a few pawns as those are valuable tempi he shoul be using to defend! 

Am I the only KID player with this view. If  i do play the white side i play a fianchetto variation! But largely do to the study of the old soviet players not because i find it the biggest test to the KI. That i would imagine would be the averbach or samisch.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O
6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Nd2 

An important line here.  White intends a quick queenside advance with b4, c4-c5 and then Nd2-c4, pressuring d6.  Play becomes very complex with Black usually countering with an all-out assault against White's King.

9.... a5

By playing ...a5 early, once again Black hopes to slow down White's advantage long enough to get his own act together on the Kingside.  9... c5 is not as aggressive as 9... a5.

10.a3 Nd7
11.Rb1 f5
12.b4 Kh8
13.f3 f4
14.Na4 

is a very direct way to push for c4-c5
and here  GM Nunn believes that to  deal with the off placed Na4, it is best to play

14... axb4
15.axb4  c6 !  This is also recommended by GM Gallagher.  This is an improvement over Beliavsky--Radjabov, 2002)

White's pawns on the Q side are becoming nothing.  If White captures dxc6 then Black plays Nxc6 and will head to d4 with his Knight.  If White wants to get rid of the Nd4, he will make the Bg7 very strong after Black plays ...exd4.  Black is doing well here.

and if White plays too ambitiously with 16.c5 (seeking a break-through) then


16. c5  cxd5 
17. cxd6 Nc6 
18. Nc3 Nb6 
19. Nxd5 Nxd5 
20. exd5 Nd4 
21. Ne4 Nf5 

and ...Nxd6 Black is slightly better in my opinion.  Both of Black's rooks control more space and he has two targets (d5 and b4) and if White exchanges Knights on d6 his Bc8 can go to f5 when his other rook can go to c8.  If White does not exchange Knights, Black's bishop can still go to ...f5 (or ...d7).  Black  has a good position and he no longers needs to TRY to equalize here.

There you go, Woofwoof.
P.S.  later we can discuss other lines where White is not so reckless with his pawn breaks but where Black generates action on the K-side thanks to the time  allowed by White.

@woofwoof

I will be glad to discuss this line with you should you ever wish to do so.  (...a5 )

@woofwoof,

I neglected to mention (I half-remembered it, now have looked it up to confirm) that ...d5 plus ...a6 was once the approved way for Black to play in the 10. dxc6 variation ...for example an older ECO gives it as leading to equality.  But in that case White was playing immediate Ba3 instead of a4.  So apparently that is considered a significant difference (hence the "a4!" in the newer edition).

Maybe it would be accurate to say that the general feeling developed years ago that the 9...c5 positions (without 10. dxc6) are a bit too rigid for Black, while 9...a5 is more flexible.  For example, after 9...a5 Black could (and does) later play ...c6 in certain instances, though of course his primary focus is on the kingside.

I like 9... a5 vs 9.Nd2.  I side with GM Gallagher and  I personally, feel better making it difficult for White to claim more space on  the Q side (and even challenging him ) while at the same time making my own progress on the K-side where my claim there is undisputed.

"9....c5 is just a little dull" Is that the best Nunn & Burgess can come up with?? So putting the Barden Hartsen & Keene book with the Nunn & Burgess one we get "probably best but just a lttle dull"

seriously now.... if dullness is the only reason that 9...c5 fell out of favour for 9...a5 then it would be more of a trend kinda thing rather than a case of objectively best yes?

Ok. I have material on 9....a5. But I have no material on 10 .dxc ep line after 9....c5. So how does black continue from there? is the plan i mentioned earlier playable?

Hey, I used to have that book!  (Barden, Hartston and Keene)  I miss the old Batsford opening books.  (snif)

It's true that 9...c5 was the leading move in the era of the BH&K book (1970s), especially since Fischer used it to good effect against Larsen.  But as Glenn indicates, 9...a5 has held the number one spot for something like the past 15 years.   
I'm not sure that any kind of simple reason can be given for this shift, and 9...c5 never disappeared or was considered refuted or anything like that.  After 9...c5, 10. dxc6 is apparently considered promising these days (e.g. Small ECO from 2003 gives it as leading to a slight advantage for White), but I believe 9...c5 started to lose "market share" during the long era when 10. Rb1 was considered White's main reply.          

What current literature says 9...c5 is the best reply to 9.Nd2?  I thought 9...a5 had been established for many years now as the best reponse.  Certainly 9...a5 is recommended by Gallagher in "Play the King's Indian" where he writes, "I suggest that Black plays 9...a5!.  This will be no great surprise to those of you already familiar with this position as it is the main line".

I am taking care of this issue in the post titled--

"A problem for black in the 10. Be3 line ? "

[Event "Pobla de Lillet op"]
[Site "Pobla de Lillet"]
[Date "2005.08.02"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Petkov,Vladimir"]
[Black "Hebden,Mark"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "E99"]

1.d4 Nf6 
2.c4 d6 
3.Nc3 g6 
4.e4 Bg7 
5.Nf3 0-0 
6.Be2 Nc6 
7.0-0 e5 
8.d5 Ne7 
9.Ne1 Nd7 
10.f3 f5 
11.g4 Kh8 
12.h4 a5 
13.Be3 Nc5 
14.Ng2 b6 
15.Kh2 Ng8 
16.g5 f4 
17.Bf2 h6 
18.Rh1 Rf7 
19.Kg1 Bf8 
20.h5 

[[In my opinion,  here Black had to go for the gusto with 20... Qxg5.  This makes it impossible for White to execute his plan and implement the same strategy as used in this game.  Here's what I mean:

20....  Qxg5
21.hxg6 

*(21.Bh4 Qxh5 22.Bf6+ Nxf6 23.Rxh5 Nxh5 With idea of ...Ng3.  Here Black  has a rook, bishop and two pawns for the Queen.  Black is better here as well.) *

21...  Rg7 
22.Rh2 

*(22.Bh4 Qxg6 23.Bf1 Be7 24.Bf2 Again, White's goal is thwarted and he's thinking on how to save his skin.)

22...  Nf6 
23.Kf1 Qxg6 
24.Ke1 Nh5 
25.Kd2 Ng3 
26.Kc2 Be7 

Things are very different from GM Hebden's game.  Black still has the initiative and now he has a clear advantage. ]]

now to continue with GM Hebden's game--

21.gxh6 Nxh6 
22.hxg6 Rxg6 
23.Kf1 ! Kg8 
24.Nh4 Rg7 
25.Ke1 

White's King will be very safe in his new home and that will hand him over a big initiative and help him exploit all the advantages of his position.

25.....   Bd7 
26.Kd2 Qf6 
27.Bf1 Be7 
28.Bh3 Bxh3 
29.Rxh3 Kf7 
30.Nb5 Na6 
31.Qf1 Rag8 
32.Rh2 Rg3 
33.Qe2 Ke8 
34.Rah1 Kd8 
35.Kc2 Nc5 
36.Bxg3 fxg3 
37.Rh3 Qxh4 
38.Rxh4 Bxh4 
39.Qg2  1-0

Quote:


For the most part, I agree with you.  I was going to discuss Be3 and hope for some discussion when I did post it.  No doubt in my mind Be3 is not only more flexible it is just what the position needs.  About the g5 pawn idea, there are plans for White to utilize this.  I will also discuss this later.   

Thank you, Inn2.

Quote:


In this game, Black was very cooperative with White and I feel he neglect what his position called for in this variation.  Let me show what I mean.  I admit there may be deviations here by White which  I have not covered, but I  am showing  these to illustrate the ideas for Black.

1. d4 Nf6 
2. c4 g6 
3. Nc3 Bg7 
4. e4 O-O 
5. Nf3 d6
6. Be2 e5 
7. O-O Nc6 
8. d5 Ne7 
9. Ne1 Nd7 (this is also my preference)
10. f3 f5 
11. g4 Kh8 
12. h4 a5 !

This is the correct move here.  Black makes White's plans of b4 and then c5 harder and he will place his Nd7 on c5.

13. Nd3 
(done to combat the idea of ...Nc5) 

13...    f4 

Threatening to carry out his  typical plans in this position of ...Ng8 and if g4-g5 then Black plays ...h6, opening the K side for his counterplay.

14. Kf2 

*[[The White king needs to seek refuge when Black opens up the K-side with an eventual ...h6.  White can also try here--

(14. a3 

Logical if White insists on playing for b4 and c5.

14....   Ng8 

And the logical reply, Black is now carrying out his plan on the K-side and the immediate threat is ...Qxh4.

15. Qe1 

White wants to avoid helping Black
open the K side.  He opts to protect the h-pawn by not moving it forward.  If now Black plays h6, he can not hope to open the K side unless he sacrifices. 
But Black simply plays.

15...  Bf6 ! 
renewing the threat on h4 and White must surrender to the infiltration of his Kingside.]]*

14...   c6 

With ideas of ... Qb6.  The initiative turns to Black here.

Kevin and woofwoof, 

Life isn't so simple for Black in the KID Classical.  If Black wants to play the most topical line after 9.Ne1, he's going to play 9.Ne8.  Here, the h5 idea isn't as good as after Nd7 for various subtle reasons.  (That's gobbledy-gook for "I don't remember why right now").   

Anyway, White can forego the headaches of 10.Be3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 h5!? 13.c5 by playing 10.f3 f5 11.g4 and Black never has the chance to play a good version of the h5-pawn storm.   


I hope to provide some of my own games this weekend when I have some time to illustrate this and other Mar Del Plata points.

In regard to the g4 move by white: I had heard from a KID player that g4 lines can be avoided by black if he plays h7-h5 before g6-g5. Can anyone confirm or deny?

Personally I would rather play 7. Be3 and avoid all this nonsense.  Why give Black exactly the sort of closed, play-for-mate game that he wants?   

Personally, I prefer a more fluid, maneuvering game.  After 7. Be3, Black still has a great deal to prove.

Inn, 

I like the 11.g4 idea against Ne8, but against Nd7 it doesn't inspire me.  I played that way once against a FM and managed to get the weirdest draw I've ever had:  A 50 move rule draw on move 68 or so.  We had locked up most of the pawns and neither of us (especially my opponent) could work up an attack.

9. b4 reminds me of the main line in sicilian sveshnikov 9. Bxf6 with White trying to poke at Black's holes.  Black is fine in the Bayonet if he has studied it, but he goes under extremely quickly if he hasn't.
 
In general I like lines where White advances on the kingside so 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. f3 f5 11. g4!? always fascinated me.
 
The following recent game is spectacular! 
 
[Event "Amsterdam Chess Tournament"]
[Site "Amsterdam NED"]
[Date "2005.07.20"]
[EventDate "2005.07.16"]
[Round "5"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "I Cheparinov"]
[Black "D Stellwagen"]
[ECO "E99"]
[WhiteElo "2634"]
[BlackElo "2533"]
[PlyCount "72"]
 
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. f3 f5 11. g4 Kh8 12. h4 Ng8 13. g5 f4 14. Kg2 h6 15. Rh1 Rf7 16. Nd3 Bf8 17. Qg1 Kg7 18. Kf1 Be7 19. Bd2 hxg5 20. hxg5 Bxg5 21.
Nb5 Bh6 22. c5 a6 23. Na3 Ndf6 24. Nc4 Ne8 25. Ncxe5 dxe5 26. Nxe5 Rf6 27. Bc3 Kh7 28. Qg5 Qe7 29. Bd4 Qf8 30. Kf2 Ng7 31. Rag1 Nh5 32. Rxh5 gxh5 33. Qxh5 Ne7 34. Bd3 Bf5 35. exf5 Rd8 36. Ng4 1-0

I love the Mar del Plata Variation of the Classical KID for White and have often played 9.Ne1.  Alekhine 2 is exactly right to point out that Black's ...Ne8 instead of Nd7 has become the weapon of choice in this variation.  Even so, I have faith that White's game is very promising.   For the record, here are the moves:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Nf3 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 (This is the real starting point of the Mar del Plata, but some books start a bit earlier in the line.) and now:

9.Be3?!
9.Ne1
9.Nd2
9.b4  

have all been played.  Kramnik's use of the "Bayonet Attack", 9.b4, has put all the focus on this move.  I still like 9.Ne1, but my results haven't been as impressive as Kramnik's.  I'm sure it's only because of the opening though!  

Maybe a bit later on I'll share an interesting game I had in the 9.Ne1 line.

I have to admit I am not a Kings Indian man, but I always found the Mar del Plata variation fascinating to watch, even if I had not got the guts to play it myself. The line I mean is the mainline KID classical where White plays Ne1 followed by Be3, f3 etc. and then plays on the Q-side. In the meantime Black goes on the K-side - ...Nd7, ...f5, ...f4, ...g5

What is the current state of theory these days in this line KID experts? I know the Bayonet attack is all the rage, but fashion can change in an instant.