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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C17: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer? (Read 10330 times)
castlerock
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #16 - 11/09/05 at 23:59:07
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I would prefer 12.Nf3 first: Bd7 13.Ng5.
But it has been a long time, since I have checked this variation.


Perhaps. My intention was to kick up some dust like we did in "How to combat Kings Indian" thread. There was a lively discussion. Let's see if it happens here.
  
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #15 - 11/09/05 at 20:47:55
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I would prefer 12.Nf3 first: Bd7 13.Ng5.
But it has been a long time, since I have checked this variation.
  
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castlerock
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #14 - 11/09/05 at 08:32:10
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Please post about those other lines, I am interested.


Okay. Armenian Variation as I understand.

Khalifman suggested this name in honor of Lputian Smbat and Vaganian who have invested their life time and 50 elo points behind C17. These three plus Akopian and Ivanov are the important experts of this line.

Notwithstanding the games posted above this line is very rich so much so Psakhis is not sure whether white can claim any advantage in C17.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Ba5 6.b4 cxd4

This is the main line, but 6.dxc5, 6.Qg4 are the alternatives. As in standard winaver, Qg4 is to be expected at every turn.

Here again Qg4, bxa5 and Nb5 are the alternatives. Qg4 and Nb5 are the most famous.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7.Qg4 Ne7 8.Nb5 Bc7 9.Qxg7 Rg8 10.Qxh7 a6 [10...Bxe5 11.Nf3 Rh8 12.Qd3 Bg7 13.Bf4 will lead to difficulties for white] 11.Nxc7+ Qxc7 12.Ne2 Qxe5 13.Bd2 Qf6 14.f4 is unclear but playable

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7.Qg4 Ne7 8.bxa5 dxc3 9.Qxg7 Rg8 10.Qxh7 Nbc6 Attacking the central pawn is better. a5 pawn is not running away 11.f4 Qxa5 This is the main line I prefer Bd7 here 12.Rb1 Bd7 No need to worry about b pawn and it is normally not taken because of Nd4 13.Nf3 0-0-0 Here again f7 pawn is not taken since black will have lot of play and white is already behind in development. Similarly Ng5 invites exchange sac with good play 14.Qd3 a6

I'll post the other lines later. What is applicable to compute evaluation of Winaver applies here also. Fridz will over estimate white's chances. That's not to be worried.
  
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Darthmambo
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #13 - 11/08/05 at 23:16:59
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About time I posted some thing for serious discussions. It is an eminently playable line. It did not take of at higher levels because of Anand perhaps. He had 3-0 with Khalifman.

I quit playing this line because of the following line.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7.Qg4 Ne7 8.Nb5 Bc7 9.Qxg7 Rg8 10.Qxh7 a6 11.Nxc7+ Qxc7 12.Ne2 Qxe5 13.Bd2 Qf6 14.f4 Nbc6 15.Qd3 Nf5 16.0-0-0 Qh6 17.Kb1 Bd7

Nothing really wrong with black but the position is not too clear. Further these moves are mandatory. Any slip any where for any colour will lead to funeral.  I'll trace those losses against Anand and post.

If you don't mind playing black side of this position, this is not a bad line and other lines are fun to play. Nigel Short's 6.dxc5 normally leads to complex play but black is okay, imho. I'll post about other lines if there is interest.



Please post about those other lines, I am interested.
  
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #12 - 11/07/05 at 01:10:16
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Thanks for the games, castlerock. Cheesy
  
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castlerock
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #11 - 11/07/05 at 00:45:05
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SF,

I did not post the games to scare people away from this line. It is more to state the reason why I think this line is not popular at Category 15 and up. Psakhis also feels this is a rich line. In fact, I have a special love for this line like Bg5 Saemisch. I feel, a good monograph will increase the interest in this line. I see, unfortunately, absolute lack of interest in this line here.
  
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #10 - 11/06/05 at 03:23:45
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Thanks for the games, castlerock!

I have recommended 5.a3 Ba5 6.b4 and 7.Qg4 to several students as a relatively simple way to play against the Armenian system.  Perhaps it isn't as simple as it seems, but it does score well for White.


Now I have some modern games to back up my recommendation! 8)
  
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castlerock
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #9 - 11/05/05 at 12:49:48
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Three of the four games that made black players lose sleep.

Anand,V (2769) - Lputian,S (2605) [C17]
Corus Wijk aan Zee (13), 30.01.2000

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7.Nb5 Bc7 8.f4 Bd7 9.Nxc7+ Qxc7 10.Nf3 a6 11.a4 Ne7 12.Bd3 Nf5 13.0-0 Nc6 14.Qe1 Qb6 15.Rb1 Nce7 16.b5 axb5 17.axb5 Ne3 18.Rf2 Nc4 19.h3 Nf5 20.Re2 h5 21.Qf2 Ra4 22.Re1 g6 23.Bxf5 exf5 24.Nxd4 0-0 25.c3 Rc8 26.Be3 Nxe3 27.Rxe3 Be6 28.Kh2 Ra3 29.Rc1 Rc4 30.Rc2 Kh7 31.Rf3 Qc7 32.Qh4 Qd7 33.Rg3 Ra8 34.Qf6 Re8 35.Ra2 Qe7 36.Qxe7 Rxe7 37.b6 Re8 38.h4 Kg7 39.Ra7 Rb8 40.Kg1 Bd7 41.Kf2 Kf8 42.Ke2 Ke8 43.Kd2 Rcc8 44.Re3 Ke7 45.Re1 Bc6 46.Rea1 Bd7 47.R1a5 Be6 48.g3 Kd8 49.Kc2 Ke7 50.Kb2 Kd8 51.Rb5 Rc4 52.Raa5 Rbc8 53.Rb3 Rb8 54.Rb4 Rcc8 55.Rbb5 Ke7 56.Rc5 Kd7 57.Rxc8 Rxc8 58.Ra7 Rb8 59.Kb3 Kd8 60.Kb4 Kd7 61.Ra5 1-0

Anand,V (2769) - Khalifman,A (2656) [C17]
Linares SuperGM Linares (9), 09.03.2000

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7.Qg4 Ne7 8.bxa5 dxc3 9.Qxg7 Rg8 10.Qxh7 Nbc6 11.f4 Qxa5 12.Nf3 Bd7 13.Rb1 0-0-0 14.Qd3 Nf5 15.Rg1 d4 16.g4 Nfe7 17.Rg3 Be8 18.h4 Nf5 19.Rg1 Ne3 20.Bxe3 dxe3 21.Qxe3 Ne7 22.Bc4 Bc6 23.Rb3 Kb8 24.Qxc3 Qc7 25.Be2 Nd5 26.Qc4 Qa5+ 27.Kf2 Ba4 28.Rb2 Rc8 29.Qd4 Rc3 30.Bd3 Rgc8 31.Rc1 Rd8 32.Rcb1 Bc6 33.Rb3 Rxb3 34.Rxb3 Nf6 35.Qb4 Nxg4+ 36.Kg3 Qd5 37.Bh7 Qd1 38.Kxg4 Rd2 39.Kg5 Bxf3 40.Bd3 Rg2+ 41.Kf6 a6 42.Rb1 1-0

Anand,V (2762) - Khalifman,A (2667) [C17]
Dortmund SuperGM Dortmund (1), 07.07.2000

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7.Qg4 Ne7 8.bxa5 dxc3 9.Qxg7 Rg8 10.Qxh7 Nbc6 11.f4 Qxa5 12.Nf3 Bd7 13.Rb1 0-0-0 14.Qd3 a6 15.Ng5 Rxg5 16.fxg5 Nf5 17.Bf4 Qxa3 18.Rb3 Qa4 19.g3 d4 20.Be2 Na5 21.Rb1 Bb5 22.Rxb5 axb5 23.0-0 Nc4 24.g4 Ne7 25.Bg3 Nb2 26.Qh7 d3 27.cxd3 Nxd3 28.Qxf7 Qd4+ 29.Kh1 Qd5+ 30.Bf3 Qd7 31.g6 Nc6 32.Be4 Nc5 33.Bh4 Nxe5 34.Qxd7+ Rxd7 35.Bg3 Nxg6 36.Bxg6 Rg7 37.Be8 Nd7 38.Bxd7+ Kxd7 39.Be5 Rxg4 40.Bxc3 b4 41.Bf6 b3 42.Bb2 Re4 43.Rf3 Rb4 44.Re3 Rb5 45.Kg2 Kd6 46.h4 e5 47.h5 1-0
  
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castlerock
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #8 - 11/05/05 at 12:45:09
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About time I posted some thing for serious discussions. It is an eminently playable line. It did not take of at higher levels because of Anand perhaps. He had 3-0 with Khalifman.

I quit playing this line because of the following line.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Ba5 6.b4 cxd4 7.Qg4 Ne7 8.Nb5 Bc7 9.Qxg7 Rg8 10.Qxh7 a6 11.Nxc7+ Qxc7 12.Ne2 Qxe5 13.Bd2 Qf6 14.f4 Nbc6 15.Qd3 Nf5 16.0-0-0 Qh6 17.Kb1 Bd7

Nothing really wrong with black but the position is not too clear. Further these moves are mandatory. Any slip any where for any colour will lead to funeral.  I'll trace those losses against Anand and post.

If you don't mind playing black side of this position, this is not a bad line and other lines are fun to play. Nigel Short's 6.dxc5 normally leads to complex play but black is okay, imho. I'll post about other lines if there is interest.
  
CastleRock
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castlerock
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #7 - 11/03/05 at 01:17:33
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Black is not wasting any time though black moves the bishop thrice. There’s no tempo loss. Same consideration why it is not bad in Ruy Lopez applies to this also.

I stopped playing this line after some of the lines turned out to be “only move” lines for black. Particularly the ones with b4,Nb5 and Qg4. I enjoy chess better if there are two or three reasonable moves at each turn for both colours.

PS: This is more a reminder to me that I should post some serious discussion in this thread.
  
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #6 - 11/02/05 at 09:20:42
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I looked at this variation back in the say when i was trying to decided what variation of the french to play. My thought are as follows.

Its not really in the spirit of the winawer. The point of playng Bb4 is to take the knight double the pawns and then kill. The Poison pawn is very attractive to me for this reason.

A lot of the time you will have moved that bishop 2 or 3 times in the opening. This is generaly not popular choice out side of  the spanish. I would rather spend my time especcially as a french player trying to get my counter play started as quickly as possible which is why i personally play a classical. Lots of fun to play but lots to learn.

Here is a pro to go with the two cons

It will put study time down a lot. You wont have to study nearly as much to play this as affectivley and you will cath people off guard. This is always important as they will probley be out of there book at move 5 or 6! You however if you do a nice thurough study will simply kill them in the opening!

If you pursue this i recomend finding a book on the winawer. Sit down with fritz or what ever program one has for analysis. And if the uninitiated lines that your opponents will probley play are not there plug them into DPA. This is a fun way to generate solid lines for a lot of responses. Helped me find a new move in the Najdorf!

Any way good luck with your quest in the winawer. But if you ever get board of playing french the owens cult is always looking for members....
  
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #5 - 10/31/05 at 10:02:33
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I can give you my (white side of things) point of view. The armenian variation looks reasonable and a White player will not really know what to do. It is bad enough that black has all the choices in the French (at least up to move seven) so the white player has to investigate 3...Bb4, 3...Nf6 and 3...de4 for starters, then it is 4...b6, 4...Qd7 and 4 ...Ne7 plus the main 4...c5. Then in the main line, 7...0-0, 7...Qc7, 6...f5, 6...Nc6 even (I played twice against this move). After that, there is the Armenian AND the French is not played that often!

In short, an interesting variation that White will not have that much time to prepare against... unless you are playing a incredibly prepared player!
  
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #4 - 10/25/05 at 21:01:01
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Actually I been looking at this line myself lately. I used to play the poision pawn variation of the Winawer, but the Qxp and NxC3 lines are not looking good for black it seems. Plus I also thought at least I wont have to study the positional winawer. It does seem like a lot of book to know. Oh right now I am starting my study with the b4 lines where white plays nb5 and f4, it looks like the best line is not so great for black, well from what I looked at so far, its not bad, but if your going for a win, it might be hard. At the same time, I bet if I put some work into it, the typical club player probably wont be really farmiliar with it. Well I am still looking at this, lets keep up the discussion.

Oh, the line with 9Qg7 does not look too bad in the latest Psakhis book on the winawer.
  
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #3 - 10/24/05 at 05:06:27
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This is just to remind myself that I owe something to this thread. Once this used to be my favourite French line. But Qg4 lines are a little murcky. That is not to say they are not playable despite 3-0 by Anand against Khalifman.

But certain lines require lot of only move responses from black side. I grew sick of it. Dishing out 25 moves from the book is not the way I like playing chess. This is just a primer and a reminder to myself that I should make a detailed post with various lines and ideas.

Vaganian and Smbat have invested their life time on this line. (Aronian too) It is fitting that this variation is called Armenian Variation. Ivanov is the leading expert of this line now. He was to write a monograph on this line for Chessville. Phil Ines mentioned about it once. I was awaiting this book but didn’t see the light of the day, I think.
  
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Re: thoughts on 5...Ba5 Winawer?
Reply #2 - 10/14/05 at 11:55:37
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Not very often played. It was once thought to give black a chance to strive for complications, it was later regarded as a dubious form of the Winawer. Not sure of it now, but Ive not seen it in current play.

3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Ba5 now play might continue as follows : 6.b4! (best) cxd4 7.Qg4 Ne7 8.bxa5 dxc3 9.Qxg7 Rg8 10 Qxh7. We are now back in the 7.Qg4 line of the Winawer proper, but the difference is white does not have doubled pawns on the c file. Instead black has a pawn on c3. So black's Qc7 or Qa5 does not really serve any purpose but to protect that c pawn rather than pressure white's doubled pawn which also puts white under a K & QR fork if captured in the winawer proper.

So armenian winawer less troublesome for white. White still has his K-side attack, but black loses a little something on the Q-side.

my 2cts worth anyway.

Fischer-Tal Leipzig 1960 is a nice doubled edged game ending in a perpetual check.


I'm not a French player, but I did investigate this line a while back when I saw Khalifman sometimes playing it.  It seems that the variation quoted above is the most challenging one, and that White has a bigger advantage after 10. Qxh7 than he does in the initial position.  That a-pawn is so troublesome when it goes to a6, but taking it is time-consuming.  If I recall correctly, a few months ago there was a game among the updates which featured this same variation, showing Black in difficulty.
  
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