Normal Topic Is Fritz 9 really stronger positionally? (Read 3136 times)
TalJechin
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Re: Is Fritz 9 really stronger positionally?
Reply #5 - 10/23/05 at 03:33:03
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One thing I might have noticed, is that F9 seems to 'understand' dutch middlegames a bit better than F8, consistently evaluating the positions in the game I looked at half a pawn less, i.e. e.g. 0,28 instead of 0,78 despite being able to gain the bishop pair with Ne6 Bxe6 dxe6. 

Though so far I've only gone thru one game, so it might be an exception...
  
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Bonsai
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Re: Is Fritz 9 really stronger positionally?
Reply #4 - 10/22/05 at 05:29:16
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Oh, well. 

Okay, so he prefers the better move in test2, even if he possibly assesses it not quite correctly (that position is very close to a serious advantage to white, maybe white even already has that, but I am not entirely sure about it - in the game I won very quickly by going into a winning endgame after 20.exd4 Qd6 21.d5 exd5 22.Nxd5 Ng6 23.h4 Nc6 24.h5 Nge7 25.Qe3 Nxd5 26.Rxd5 Qe7 27.Rc5 1-0, but maybe black could have played more accurately).

As a typical computer program he seems completely and utterly clueless about test1. At least he doesn't suggest the move my opponent played Re3+ (and I believe that is one of the moves the previous Fritz versions seem to like - "It's a check, it could be a mate!"), when in reply to Kb2 he had to resign...
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Is Fritz 9 really stronger positionally?
Reply #3 - 10/21/05 at 05:57:56
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Bonsai,

test 1:



test1 gave the following result:

Fritz 9: 1) 1.Kd1 d4 2.Rf7 c4 3.Rd7 d3 4.Rg7 d2 5.Re7 -1.20/18 
Fritz 9: 2) 1.Rf7 d4 2.Kd1 c4 3.Rd7 d3 4.Rg7 d2 5.Re7 -1.20/18 ; 
Fritz 9: 3) 1.Rc7 c4 2.Kd1 d4 3.Rd7 d3 4.Rg7 d2 5.Re7 -1.20/18 ; 
Fritz 9: 4) 1.Ke1 d4 2.Kd1 c4 3.Rd7 d3 4.Rg7 d2 5.Re7 -1.20/18 ; 
Fritz 9: 5) 1.Rg7 d4 2.Kd1 c4 3.Rd7 d3 4.Rg7 d2 5.Re7 -1.20/18   



test2

Fritz 9: 1.exd4 Qd6 2.d5 exd5 3.Qe5 Nc4 4.Qxd6 Nxd6 5.Nxd5 Ng6 6.Ne7+ Nxe7 7.Rxd6 a5 8.Rb6 0.20/15  Line

Fritz 9: 1.Rxd4 Nec6 2.Rd3 Nb4 3.Rd1 Nc4 4.h4 Rc8 5.h5 h6 6.Bf3 Kh8 7.a3 0.02/15  Line



And finally test3, a classic. I suppose most humans would find the first few moves of the drawing idea in no time and then figure out how to deal with the ...Qa6 infiltration after a little thought.

Both fritzes are clueless so far, and I don't have the time to wait until ply 30 is reached - if that would help...:

test3 - by J. Hashek 1951

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=8/1p6/1Pp2N1q/2Ppk2p/P3p3...

Fritz 9: 1.Ne8  -1.05/16 

Fritz 9: 1.Nd7+ Ke6 2.Nb8 Qf8 3.Nxc6 Qxc5 4.Nd4+ Kf7 5.Nb5 exd3 6.Rc1 Qxb6 7.Kxd3 Qa6 8.Rc5 h4 9.gxh4 Qxa4 -1.95/16 ; 

Fritz 9: 1.a5 Kxf6 2.a6 Qh8 3.a7 Qa8 4.d4 Ke7 5.Ra1 Ke6 -2.40/16 ; 

Fritz 8: 1) 1.Ne8 exd3 2.Nd6 Qg7 3.a5 Qg4 4.e4 dxe4 5.Re1 Qg5+ 6.Re3 Kd4 7.Nxe4 Qg7 -0.87/16 ; 

Fritz 8: 2) 1.Nd7+ Kf5 2.d4 Qh8 3.Kc3 Qa8 4.Kb3 h4 5.g4+ Kxg4 6.Ne5+ Kf5 7.Rg1 Qa6 8.Rg7 Ke6 -0.75/15 ; 

Fritz 8: 3) 1.a5 Kxf6 2.a6 Qh8 3.a7 Ke6 4.Rb4 Qa8 5.Kc3 Ke5 6.d4+ Kf6 7.Ra4 Ke7 -1.62/15
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Is Fritz 9 really stronger positionally?
Reply #2 - 10/20/05 at 17:20:09
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Wow, Taljechin, 

Cool positions!  I'm going to have to work out the draw in the rook ending! (Don't tell me, I like good chess problems!
  
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Bonsai
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2 positions from games I played
Reply #1 - 10/20/05 at 15:04:15
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I'd be interested to know whether F9 sees the draw for white (to move) in this position. This seems to be beyond Fritz8 and Shredder7 (they occasionally have the right move as their best move, but then swap it for something else again and never evaluate it correctly - all programs seem to believe that white is lost here):
http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=xrxxxxxx%2FxPxxRxxx%2Fxxx...

This is a position where Fritz8 finds the best move exd4!, but I wonder whether a too positional program might not find it:
http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=xxxxxrkx%2Fxxqxnxpp%2Fpxx...
  
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TalJechin
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Is Fritz 9 really stronger positionally?
10/20/05 at 10:13:13
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I recently got myself Fritz 9, since it's supposed to have a better positional understanding according to the hype. But after a few days, I'm not even sure if it's stronger than Fritz 8. ???

When analysing, I came upon the following position - or rather to my amazement I noticed that F9 was quite happy to allow it, after ...Nf5, Bxf5 gxf5 cxd5 exd5 (diagram)

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r4rk1/1p1bbp1p/1qn5/p2pPp...

Here I would assume that white should be clearly better, due to black's many pawn islands and exposed king position. Surely this would be something Fritz 9's enhanced positional understanding would agree about? Nope!

At 16/44 ply F9 gives 20.Qd3 Rfd8 21.Rac1 Be6 etc += 0,29

F8 at 17/17 ply gives 20.Qd3 Rfd8 21.Rac1 Rac8 etc += 0,59 - which is at least closer to +/- than = while F9 is only 0.03 from = which seems very hard to believe.

Anyone who's noticed similar things with F9 - or the opposite? (i.e. evidence of improved strategical understanding)
  
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