ErictheRed wrote on 05/24/06 at 14:41:23:


Eric, I looked at Shipkov's CD and the one for Dutch A90-A99 hardly contains anything of interest for you. 

The Shipkovs CD A80-A85 deals with variations like 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.e3 b6, 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nf3 e6 4.e3 b6, 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 Bb4 5.e3 b6, etc.  He has a small section in a text-file where he discusses the above mentioned variations. More of value is the fair amount of analysed games on the CD. They will give you a good impression how to play those positions, however there are some transpositions to the  Dutch A90-A99 CD. Only a couple of the games interesting for you are analysed by Shipkov himself. This means that most analysed games are also available through for instance through the opening encyclopedia CD from chess base.

It seems we agree overall. I own the whole gambit series by Schwarz and don't use them anymore. It definitely has a lower level than the green books.
To get back to the main topic: those interested in 2nd move deviations might also find Schwarz' book on the Dutch useful.

Mnb, I could not explain better why Schwarz is a good source. His book about the dutch is not his only book where he sometimes spent over 10 pages of useful theorie on a variation (i.e. also on the QGD, Aljechin exchange variation, etc.), where others do not even give a footnote. Schwarz becomes a well kept secret.

Of course, to get up-to-date, using these old sources must be combined with a thorough database research. My point is this. With several exceptions, I wonder how much books of the last five years really add to the books I already have.
As an example I can give Williams' quite decent book: a lot of original stuff. He does not treat the whole Classical Dutch (neither does he want to). He has also neglected a couple of dangerous ideas for White - for instance 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.o-o o-o 6.c4 d6 7.Nc3 Qe8 8.Re1 Qg6 9.Qb3!?
Then I am glad to have Schwarz and - in this case - Taimanov.
There are worse examples to find than Williams' book.

Schwarz just collected and sorted games in a time when databases were not used. Almost no explanations or own analysis. They don't contribute anything to a decent database nowadays.

Thanks Black Widow.  I'm not sure how helpful Kindermann's book will be to me, because I'm looking for Dutch-Indian lines with ...b6.  Tomorrow night I'll take a look at Martin's The Contemporary Anti-Dutch since it's in my club's library.

I don't think I'll get the Bauer book, but how is the Shipkov CD?  Also, who is Schwarz?

fluffy wrote on 05/21/06 at 19:22:09:


IIRC, this work deals mostly with 2.e4, 2.Bg5, 2.Nc3 & misc 2nds - I don't remember any coverage of Black ...b6 set-ups.

Otherwise, it's a good effort but quite dated nowadays, 16 years is a lot in chesstheory.


ErictheRed wrote on 05/20/06 at 16:40:48:


I think there was a review of it here by Sutter Cane, so check the older threads in this subforum.

Thanks Mrcowsy!  I didn't think to try Bauer's book.  Unfortunately I don't want to order it if it only covers a small sideling of the Dutch.  Can someone tell me what this book covers for a Dutch player?  I assume it covers the English Defence, but I want coverage of lines like 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.e3 b6, 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nf3 e6 4.e3 b6, 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 Bb4 5.e3 b6, etc.  These lines can all arise from the English Defence move order, but some authors would skip over them, saying they belong to other openings.

Is there anywhere I can see a table of contents online, or would someone pretty please post a small table of contents or index of variations?  Thanks!

You can find some information on 1. d4 f5 2. c4 e6 ( or...d6) 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3!? (an old favourite) in this thread:
http://altmax.com/cgi-local/cpf/YaBB.cgi?board=daringdefences;action=dis play;num=1101009147

though nowadays i think 3. g3! is the main line for good reason!

One of my favorite things about the Dutch-Indian is that there's almost no literature on it.  Cool! I'm thinking, my very own pet opening!  Takes everyone by surprise...invariably nets me at least five minutes on turn 4.   

The way to study it is by looking at games.  Simon Williams himself has a bunch.  Thank your stars that here's a sound and playable opening without massive theory to it.  It's like playing the Scandinavian in the 70s.

Also, you may want to consider the Chessbase CD "Boris Schipkov: Dutch A80-A85"

I don't have that CD and I haven't seen any reviews, so I am not sure how good this one is.

Here is the blurb you can also find on the net: http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=251

"In the third and final part of his trilogy about the Dutch, Boris Schipkov turns his attention to the less important lines. But some of them could well be considered main lines, since they are played by respected grandmasters and since the statistics are excellent from the point of view of White. For example 2.Nc3 – White immediately begins to fight for the advance e2-e4. Or 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 – which is encountered so often in praxis that it can hardly be called a sub variation. The author treats all lines with great thoroughness. All are preceded by a text in which Schipkov presents the underlying strategic ideas of the variation in question and refers to the relevant model games.

All the features at a glance:
20 texts 
370 model games annotated by the author 
over 37,000 games 
training database 
reader based on ChessBase 9.0 "


Good luck

When I took up the Iljin-Zjenevsky, I faced the same problem. Lazy as I am, I decided to play Be7/d6 without a queen's fianchetto against about all white setups.
But in the past years I have looked at other options too. In general there are four:
1) IZ - d6, Be7, o-o, Qe8 preparing e6-e5.
2) Queen's Fianchetto - Be7, o-o, b6, Bb7.
3) Nimzo-Indian setup - Bb4, o-o, d6.
4) Combining 3 and 4.

You best work out for yourself, what suits you best. If you have specific questions, I can try to answer them.

Bellin's book might contain some of what you want, if you can find it. But the Dutch is a rare opening so nobody will invest time & money in writing a book on rare variations against a rare defence.

Try searching your database for commented games, or magazines for new games - and of course, follow your 'Dutch heroes' in the database. Strong players who regularly play 1...f5 is likely to meet a few of those irregular variations. 

And finally, try to deduct the intended ideas & set-ups from the games you find and make yourself some rule of thumb!

If the above isn't enough you could compare with similar openings - for example, some variations of the Nimzo Indian is pretty close to the Iljin in middlegame strategy and how to deal with white's doubled c-pawns. So commentred games etc fro the NI might be quite useful to you...

I took up the Classical Dutch  about 8 months ago, and so far it's served me well in tournament games.  Before that, I had mostly alternated between the Nimzo/Bogo Indians and the Noteboom/Semi-Slave complex of openings.

I currently own The Classical Dutch by Pinski and Play the Classical Dutch by Simon Williams.  Between these two books, the main lines are covered pretty well, as are 2nd move deviations like 2. Nc3, 2. e4, and 2. Bg5.  However, I'm having some trouble finding useful guidelines about how to play against miscellaneous setups with d4, c4, Nc3, e3, Bd3 (or Qc2), Nf3 (or Nge2), etc.

For instance, Pinski's book does an OK job covering 1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nf6 and then 4. Nf3, 4. e3, and 4.Qc2, but he misses some reasonable looking setups and concentrates almost exclusively on 4...Be7 to all of these moves.  On the other hand, Simon Williams deals mostly with 4...Bb4, only considering 4. Qc2, 4. Bg5, and 4. Nf3 after 1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nf6.  Williams' coverage is especially thin; he keeps 1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Bb4 to under a page, for instance (and gives 5. e3 Bxc3+ as fully satisfactory for Black, stopping there!).  The whole chapter where this is covered, called "Classical Dutch with ...Bb4(+): White Avoids Fianchettoing" is only 7 pages long, which is pretty ridiculous considering that in many lines and illustrative games he seems to recommend transposing to the Nimzo-Indian line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 b6 5. Bd3 Bb7 6. Nf3 Ne4 7. Qc2 f5 (or similar).   

I like Williams' book very much, as he has given a lot of original analysis on the main lines of the Classical Dutch.  However, I would like to find a book with a good discussion of these Nimzo/Dutch and QID/Dutch hybrids (and other setups).  I know there are subtle nuances here that Williams and Pinski gloss over; for instance, when to put the knight on e4 transposing to a Nimzo, when to play ...b6 and ...c5, etc.   

I've seen McDonald's book Starting Out: The Dutch Defence, but don't like it very much (and it doesn't deal with the positions I'm curious about).  I tried looking in Strategic Play (a great book by Mednis), Mastering the Endgame Vol. 2 by Reshevsky, The English Defence by Daniel King, and various other books like Zurich International, 1953, but most sources cover these lines skimpily or not at all.  Can anyone recommend a good book that does?  Perhaps an older Dutch book by Robert Bellin, or even a middlegame treatise like Euwe's two books?  I'm desperate to find some more sources that deal with lines like 1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Bb4, 1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e3 b6, 1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Qc2 Bb4, etc.   

Sorry for the long post!