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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 gives white the advantage (Read 23522 times)
Viking
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #34 - 11/30/05 at 13:43:04
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GO Carlsen, GO!

I'm sorry. I couldnt resist: It is not that often we can selebrate, when it comes to chess. 
Hopefully, with Magnus this is only the beginning.... Btw, he turned 15 today.

The world cup pages seams to be down at the moment.
For the game, here is an alternative link:http://home.online.no/~eirikgu/partier/worldchesscup20052.htm
  
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TalJechin
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #33 - 11/30/05 at 11:15:54
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It's easy putting a '=' after a brief variation, but in practice one has to know some critical stuff at certain points or just lose the point. Then it doesn't really matter if there was equality around the corner or not, as there usually is afterwards no matter what the opening.

A case in point, Carlsen's win today against the Najdorf was really impressive, a positional crush with some cute tactical flavours spicing it up. Here the Najdorf did most certainly not look equal! 

http://www.worldchesscup2005.com/java/game.asp?game=1000210032
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #32 - 11/30/05 at 06:50:06
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I believe white can get away with ridiculous extravagances on his opening move and therefore 1.c4 should, with the extra tempo, give black equality and nothing more. Of course, black's only good reply is 1...e5, otherwise white can play 2.d4 and transpose into an opening which is not so bad. The main problem with the English is that it's completely dour. 
As black I try to head for the Bellon gambit, which would probably explain my attempts to rehabilitate the wing gambits (in deferred form) against 1...c5 - A weakening move, and once the pawn is removed, white's lead in development and greater control of the centre should grant white an advantage  Wink

As for a game, with correct play by black... if black played the game correctly, then it would end in a draw since I doubt 1...c5 is so bad that it hands white a won position, just one where he should be better. However I will try to dig out some games tonight which show that should white play correctly (not the open sicilian), then 1...c5 leads to a position where white has all the pressure. I imagine most of these will be in the Bb5 sicilian. Although I do have a soft spot for 2.b3 against the sicilian, and think that this move deserves a lot more attention than it receives.

Of course, these moves are not so much in my style, and therefore I'll continue to try and blast the sicilian apart with gambits such as 2.b4, 2.d4 and 2.f4. You have to be true to yourself, after all... Cheesy

Regards, 
Craig
  

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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #31 - 11/30/05 at 05:42:03
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Of course I completely agree with your f-pawn argument.
But I challenge you to show a game, with correct play by Black, in which is shown that 1.e4 c5 is weakening.
For instance: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 e6 = (g6 cannot be bad either). Again this does not mean, that White has no winning chances.
Craig, I wonder if you also think 1.c4?! =+ ?  Wink
  

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CraigEvans
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #30 - 11/30/05 at 05:06:47
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Quote:
1.e4 c5 intending 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4...


"The mistake here seems to be in white's third move. 1...c5 is a weak move which does nothing to contribute to black's development, and on the logic of how to punish moves which break rules, breaking them yourself is not the way to do it. 3.d4 allows black to get a 2-1 central pawn majority, which as we know, grants black a good game. Therefore, white must not allow black to trade his c-pawn for white's d-pawn, and must develop his forces accordingly to as to show 1...c5 to be a weakening move." - Craig Evans  Grin

I've never understood why having a pawn on f4(f5) is usually considered a weakness with the c1(c8 ) bishop, but having a pawn on c4(c5) isn't thought of the same way. If "king safety" is the best reason that people can come up with, then there is truly nothing wrong with it, since the king should not be in peril because of the one pawn move. White's strategy in the sicilian should be to prove that 1...c5 blocks the scope of the f8 bishop (forcing a fianchetto, unless black wants to develop passively on e7) and then show the c5 pawn to be a weakness, or force the exchange of the black c-pawn for white's b-pawn, granting him a 4v3 in the centre. Although I often play the morra (an even more direct attempt to prove that 1...c5 is a [i]wasted[/t] move), I personally feel that the Bb5 lines are the correct way of proceeding. Just as the Ruy Lopez is the critical test of 1...e5, there is no reason why it should not be so with 1...c5.

Dogmatic, perhaps, but I do feel that 1...c5 is an inferior move in the opening. If this is black's best then 

1.e4 +/=

Regards,
Craig  
  

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"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #29 - 11/29/05 at 20:55:49
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"But I rather White in the Najdorf anyday"
I do not want to challenge your preferences, the Najdorf is not for me either. But nobody has been able to prove anything against guys like Kasparov and Topalov.
That does not mean, that White must already accept the draw. Ask eg Van Wely, how he has done against Sjirov.
I agree, that the Petrov is a big problem too, but it is of a different kind: White has decent results (58% or so) but the drawing rates are very high.
  

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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #28 - 11/29/05 at 08:56:40
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Quote:
1.e4 c5 intending 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 =.
And also 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 or 3.Nf3 b6 =.


agree on the nimzo/QID. But I rather White in the Najdorf anyday.. 

The problem with 1. e4 must be 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6! =  Players like Adams, Shirov (!), Anand, Bologan (all 1. e4 specialists) play the Petroff so often, it must've annoyed them alot with White Smiley
  
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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #27 - 11/29/05 at 08:51:20
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The tournaments both Réti and Breyer won, saw them playing classical openings.
Réti lost a few other famous games with 1.Nf3 - against Alekhine and Lasker iirw.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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John Cox
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #26 - 11/29/05 at 07:44:34
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Is that really true - did Reti not famously beat Capablanca with 1 Nf3?

Breyer, from what little I know of him, I agree.
  
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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #25 - 11/29/05 at 05:49:01
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"I think 1.e4 is the best move and gives white the advantage"
1.e4 c5 intending 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 =.
And also 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 or 3.Nf3 b6 =.

Note, that the socalled hypermoderns Réti and Breyer had most success with classical openings like the QGD. IMO only Nimzovitsj was a pure hypermodern player.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Tater_Salad
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #24 - 11/28/05 at 19:25:28
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2...Ng8
  
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John Cox
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #23 - 11/28/05 at 19:10:37
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Point of order, your Honour.

I believe it was Breyer who said that after 1 e4 White's game is in its last throes.

I'm not sure how he intended to achieve this, though - anyone know if he had anything specific in mind?
  
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JEH
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #22 - 11/28/05 at 18:07:11
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When people play like this against me, I always pass them the doubling cube  Grin
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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bckm
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #21 - 11/28/05 at 16:42:14
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I guess people don't have anything better to discuss...  Roll Eyes

This "which move is better" nonsense is a complete waste of time, in my opinion.  If chess was so easy, it wouldnt be worth the trouble.   You play whatever you're comfortable playing at the time.  Some people play the same thing forever, others change almost on a daily basis.  I've played just about everything (except 1.a4, 1.h3, 1.h4, 1.Nc3, 1.f3 and 1.g4 - and yes, I HAVE played 1.a3, 1.Na3, and 1.Nh3 in tournament!); they all have their appeal, depending on the situation.  Right now I'm playing 1.e4. Tomorrow I might play 1.Nf3, next week it might be 1.a3, next July it might be 1.e3...

Statistics, as applied to such topics, are also a waste of time, because it doesnt filter out the games played by 2700s as opposed to those played by 700s, it doesnt filter matches as opposed to round robins as opposed to opens as opposed to hight-class invitational tournaments, etc.

Next?!?    Cheesy
  
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Viking
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Re: 1.e4 gives white the advantage
Reply #20 - 11/28/05 at 14:05:26
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Quote:
"Every pawn move weakens the position" (...probably said by Nimzovitch). 1.Nf3 seems the best move for White taking the precedent axiom into account.


Hmm, interesting... 
I have never really thought about it but then I might have the ideal repertouar:
I play Alekhine against e4
&
Reti as white...

(...but by beloved dutch leningrad may not fit that well... 8))
  
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