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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense (Read 121250 times)
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #39 - 02/21/06 at 03:37:01
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I like how Lev consistently ignores the 15th move suggestions...    Huh

7 ... Nc6 8 O-O Nxd4 9 Kh1 Nc6 10 Qe1 Bd7 11 Rd1 h6 12 Bh4 O-O 13 Bb5 Qe8 14 Bxf6 Bxf6 15 Ne4

and now

15 ... Bxb2! 16 Qg3 Qc8!  and black is in the clear.  While white does have some compensation, it's very small, certainly not three pawns! 

15 ... Be7!  More cautious, but perfectly viable.  16 Qg3 Rc8 is perfectly safe.

Just to check myself, and to spite Lev's hate of computers, Crafty says about -2.5 for Bxb2, and -2.1 for Be7.  I don't care whether you're a stronger player than myself, any decent club player could hold the black position readily.

So, I therefore proclaim, -/+.  Logical moves, logical advantage.  Feel free to try to improve the lines, Lev.

Nex
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #38 - 02/20/06 at 17:29:37
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Always the sames words Lev, always... You are not open-minded and I know what type of people they are when they never change their mind even when they are wrong... Always the same words, so I'ts pityful but I will respond always with the sames words too...

ZGED is only good on OTB against opponent of the same level or less, that NEVER have analysed that gambit before.

Quote:
Even with correspondence, Peter Leisebein has consistently shown that the Zilbermints Gambit is perfectly playable if you know the theory.


Ahah, there is 2 big errors in that sentence. First, what is theory? a move that is known from master's practice or from a serious analysis/game, and we can't say that ZGED= real theory, maybe YOUR theory, but a bad one, because full of errors. Do you think Leisebein searched for your theory to play the ZGED in corr? if yes he would have lose every games. So you don't have to know the theory of the ZGED, because there is practicaly none. Secondly, Leisebein played the ZGED in corr play, YES, with good results, YES, but he still doubts about the soundness of that gambit : he have found a -/+ himself, that I have shown in the old Euwe thread and is still not refuted, and he don't play it anymore, he plays now the slowlier 8.a3.

Quote:
This is my #1  beef with people like you over here:  You claim to analyze ad infinitum with whatever chess engine comes out of  the woodwork -- Fritz,  Junior -- and say, oh, this is not good!
Such an approach may be good for correspondence chess -- but not for over-the-board chess!


False again: Home preparation! If one day I had to play against you OTB, I would know exactly how to face the ZGED from memory, where I will be rapidly -/+ according to Leisebein's analysis(oh, Leisebein, Fritz are not with me in a OTB game, but I wear my own memory all the time, from where I remember what I have analysed before!). You won many games with long time control? I see not many reasons: Your opponents were far weaker than you; your opponents faced your gambit for the first time (or have never analysed it) and could not find the few -/+ lines (I know one way, but there is certainly somes others ways to have -/+, because if you are not precise, your ZGED offers a good attack in the other lines)

And the subject is not to know if it's playable on OTB, if you have the luck to find again and again people who lose against your ZGED OTB, good for you, but we search about the truth, and the truth for the moment about the BDG : still irrefuted (let's say advantage for Black for a refut.) and is about (=) for the moment, ZGED: -/+ rapidly and by force(from the existing analysis, just a bit of memory is required), which is generally sufficient to win for the Black side of the same level of White.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #37 - 02/20/06 at 09:47:31
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Again this conversation re-surfaces, and it's quite blatant crap. This is a website designed to discuss opening theory. Without a mass of high-level games, the best way to ascertain this theory will involve computer aid, as opposed to the blitz games of a mediocre player with a penchant for naming openings after himself.

You also make a ridiculous point regarding other gambits. The Evans is far more likely to be sound than the ZGED, since it relies as much on positional foundations as anything, whereas the ZGED is a cheap way of gambiting, not one, but TWO central pawns for some cheap tricks. The Danish provides a huge lead in development and some open files, and again probably provides enough compensation for the pawns - especially since black is usually encouraged to play 5...d5 and give the material back to go into an endgame which, I personally believe, is still better for white.

As for the Ryder Gambit... I've only ever faced the BDG once over-the-board, since I don't play into it. However, playing in a tournament a few months back, I knew my pairing for the morning involved playing someone who played the Ryder Gambit religiously, and has done for several years. Needless to say, I went back to my room and took half an hour with Mr Junior (yes Lev, I used a computer, in preparation for an OTB game). The next morning, I was two pawns up on move 25 going into an endgame, and soon found myself a point richer.

Regards,
Craig
  

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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #36 - 02/20/06 at 02:57:27
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I doubt, if Anand in 1995 had analysed the Evans Gambit ad infinitum.
At the other hand, Kasparov is well known for his computer aided opening preparation.

Case in point.
  

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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #35 - 02/19/06 at 23:19:17
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Teyko wrote on 02/11/06 at 15:26:18:
Hey guys,

I know that I have been missing for a while, but I have always kept up with the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit. I would just like to say something for a moment if you would let me. First off, there are some lines in which white is struggling. But this is few and far between. In most cases white is fine, if and only if you are comfortable playing a pawn down in the fight for initiative.

With that said, I think it is ridiculous "Lev" for you to constantly comment on the BDG as if every move you make is an exclaim.

Secondly, I am delighted that the Blackmar Diemer threads have come so far. I was ridiculed by both GM Prie in correspondence, and other I.M's that I have played with in Chicago when I argued that this opening could be played in high level chess. When I first proposed this thread here, back in 2003 I had the same experiences. No one wanted to converse on the opening critically so I am happy to see it in common conversation, but I believe, at least for me, that this comes with a responsiblity ladies and gentlemen. I did not endure the ridicule of the BDG just to have the others that now see it as interesting forget the long held idea that this opening is garbage.

As BDG players, we know that gambitbooks and everyman chess will never put out an opening book for us on this gambit, so that means that both our dedication to the opening and the analysis of the lines must be critical and responsible.

Lev, this means you. If you can't check your analysis against an Fritz, or Junior Engine as these are the analysis engines that are checking traditional openings--YOU CAN'T SAY THE LINE IS SOUND!!! I am tired of hearing you argue that you can win it over the board, when you "winning" is contingent on the failure of your opponent to know the line and/or understand the position. In other words, don't base your winning with the BDG on your opponents mistakes.

What then do we do if we are commited to the BDG? I would like to see 5 threads. 1) The Euwe 2) The Bogo 3)The Zielgler 4)The Tiechmann 5) The Hubsch

Now what we can do is start these threads simultaneously and come to solid conclusions on each of the defenses and their status. If we work together in a very structured and patterned way on this we can create streams of analysis that can be placed in an ebook for Eric and include all of our contributions, so that we can have "at least on chesspublishing" a "credible" source of BDG theory and practice.

Tommy J. Curry A.K.A Teyko


"Don't base your winning with the BDG on your opponent's mistakes"

Ooh, that's rich,  Teyko!  Really funny!  Last I looked, a lot of chess games were won because either Black or White made a mistake... and not just in the BDG!

Jesus Christ,  to err is human goes the old adage!  You teyko, would have both opponents play perfectly, with computers in a tournament?  I don't think so.

This is my #1  beef with people like you over here:  You claim to analyze ad infinitum with whatever chess engine comes out of  the woodwork -- Fritz,  Junior -- and say, oh, this is not good!
Such an approach may be good for correspondence chess -- but not for over-the-board chess!
Even with correspondence, Peter Leisebein has consistently shown that the Zilbermints Gambit is perfectly playable if you know the theory.

You, teyko,  are tired of hearing me say  I win with it over-the-board? Hah!  Get used to hearing it! I do not play correspondence, so all my games with the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense are played over-the-board.

Computers  are machines, they cannot be psyched, except in closed positions. But human beings can be outwitted in unfamiliar positions.  Especially in gambits!

There are many double-gambits, such as the Evans, the Danish, the Ryder Gambit...  All of these involve the sacrifice of two pawns.  So,  what matters is your skill and good memory, not a bunch of computer circuits.  If you play in a  50 moves/2 hours, SD/60 tournament, will you be allowed to consult a computer?  No, of course not!  The point is,  no matter what your precious computer may say, you have to memorize all that -- and then  be prepared. You never know who the opponent might be, nor when he/she might pull the ZGED/BDG.  All these are factors that must be considered.

I have the world's  largest collection of  Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense games.  Right now, I am working on a series of articles to be published.  I promise you,  there will be a book or e-book published about this gambit... by me!

How many games? Oh, around 300 games,  about the same number Diemer had in his 1957 book.

You can analyze ad infinitum, but when you and I sit down to play each other  in a tournament, your computer will not help you.

It did not help Anand, who got crushed by  Kasparov with the Evans Gambit in 1995.

Case in point.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #34 - 02/18/06 at 16:18:36
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MNb wrote on 02/09/06 at 02:33:55:
7.Qd2 o-o comes close to an error. I propose either 7...Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0-0 9.Bxe7 Ncxe7 ... White has a hard time to prove his compensation.

ArKheiN says:
"And about 7.Qd2: 7..h6 8.Bh4 or 7..Nc6 8.0-0-0 Nd5 9.Bxe7 Ncxe7 and I think White is not so bad but I don't play this sub-variation, so maybe Rajmund will be better to defend the White side."


Yes, I think that also here has white some promising possibilities:

1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Qd2 Nc6 (MNb) 8.0-0-0 Nd5 9.Bxe7 Ncxe7 10.Bd3  SmileyNxc3 11.Qxc3 0-0
[11...Qd6 12.Kb1 0-0 13.Ng5 h6 14.Ne4 Qc6 15.Qd2 Rd8 16.Qf2 Bd7 17.Rhf1 f5 (17...Be8 18.Rde1 b6 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Qxf6 Qd6 21.Qxh6 Nf5 22.Qg5+ Ng7 23.Rf4->) 18.Nc5 b6 19.Nxd7 Qxd7 20.Qe2 Re8 21.g4 Nd5 22.c3 a5 23.Qf3 f4 24.g5 hxg5 25.Qh5 Ne3 26.Bh7++/-]
12.h4!? Qd6
[12...h6 13.Qe1 (13.g4 Nd5 14.Qd2 Qf6 15.Ne5 Qf4 16.g5 Qxd2+ 17.Kxd2 f5 18.gxh6 gxh6 19.Rhg1+ Kh7+/=) 13...Qd6 14.Rf1 f6 15.Qe4 f5 16.Qe2 Bd7 17.Ne5 Rae8 18.g4 Nc6 19.Nxd7 Qxd7 20.c3 Qd6 21.Kb1 (21.Qg2 Qd5!+/=) 21...Qg3 22.g5+/-]
13.Kb1 Bd7 14.Qd2 f6 [14...Nd5 15.c4 Nf6 16.h5 h6 17.Ne5 c5 18.Rh4 cxd4 19.Re1 Rfd8 20.g4->] 15.h5 Nf5 16.c3 a5 17.Rde1 Rae8 18.g4->

  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #33 - 02/11/06 at 18:58:28
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If we do a serious work: mains defenses for Black in differents threads, we can add somes other threads : 6) Gunderam 7) Lemberger 8) Vienna defense 9) BDG declined : others defenses 10) BDG accepted : others defenses

Personnally I like the Gunderam for both side, and the Lemberger is a good way for a solid equality. But there is no "bad" defenses, there is only bad variations.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #32 - 02/11/06 at 15:26:18
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Hey guys,

I know that I have been missing for a while, but I have always kept up with the blackmar diemar gambit. I would just like to say something for a moment if you would let me. First off, there are some lines in which white is struggling. But this is few and far between. In most cases white is fine, if and only if you are comfortable playing a pawn down in the fight for initiative.

With that said, I think it is ridiculous "Lev" for you to constantly comment on the BDG as if every move you make is an exclaim.

Secondly, I am delighted that the Blackmar Diemar threads have come so far. I was ridiculed by both GM Prie in correspondence, and other I.M's that I have played with in Chicago when I argued that this opening could be played in high level chess. When I first proposed this thread here, back in 2003 I had the same experiences. No one wanted to converse on the opening critically so I am happy to see it in common conversation, but I believe, at least for me, that this comes with a responsiblity ladies and gentlemen. I did not endure the ridicule of the BDG just to have the others that now see it as interesting forget the long held idea that this opening is garbage.

As BDG players, we know that gambitbooks and everyman chess will never put out an opening book for us on this gambit, so that means that both our dedication to the opening and the analysis of the lines must be critical and responsible.

Lev, this means you. If you can't check your analysis against an Fritz, or Junior Engine as these are the analysis engines that are checking traditional openings--YOU CAN'T SAY THE LINE IS SOUND!!! I am tired of hearing you argue that you can win it over the board, when you "winning" is contingent on the failure of your opponent to know the line and/or understand the position. In other words, don't base your winning with the BDG on your opponents mistakes.

What then do we do if we are commited to the BDG? I would like to see 5 threads. 1) The Euwe 2) The Bogo 3)The Zielgler 4)The Tiechmann 5) The Hubsch

Now what we can do is start these threads similtaneously and come to solid conclusions on each of the defenses and their status. If we work together in a very structured and patterned way on this we can create streams of analysis that can be placed in an ebook for Eric and include all of our contributions, so that we can have "at least on chesspublishing" a "credible" source of BDG theory and practice.

Tommy J. Curry A.K.A Teyko
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #31 - 02/11/06 at 05:55:56
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Quote:
a) 9...a6 10.Qe2 (10.Qd2 b5!?) Nxd4 (b5!?) 11.Nxd4 Qxd4 12.Bxc7 Bd7 13.o-o-o Qg4!
b) 9...Bd6 (I don't like this very much) 10.Bxd6 Qxd6 11.Qd2 a6 (Bd7?? 12.Nb5!) 12.Ne4 and White gets lasting compensation because of his better bishop and central control.


After 9..a6 I would rather play 10.Qd2(Qe2 doesn't seem good enough) , and and after b5, I don't know for the moment. 9..Bd6 10.Qd2 is also good for equality I think. I will try to give more analysis later.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #30 - 02/10/06 at 02:45:03
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Because of the move order 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.f3 I am mainly interested in White's chances, so I am not the right guy to defend Black's case. I have some general opinions though.
If Black wants to play h7-h6 he should do so before castling, because of the possible sac on h6; White will play Qd2. Thus follows, that x...h6 y.Bh4 can safely answered with o-o. So I agree, that after 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.a3 h6 the best move might be 9.Bf4; I have also considered 9.Be3 Ng4 10.Bf4 with the idea, that Ng4 is misplaced.
Some initial thoughts: 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.a3 h6 9.Bf4
a) 9...a6 10.Qe2 (10.Qd2 b5!?) Nxd4 (b5!?) 11.Nxd4 Qxd4 12.Bxc7 Bd7 13.o-o-o Qg4!
b) 9...Bd6 (I don't like this very much) 10.Bxd6 Qxd6 11.Qd2 a6 (Bd7?? 12.Nb5!) 12.Ne4 and White gets lasting compensation because of his better bishop and central control.
From Black's point of view I think it's most important to activate the queen's bishop somehow. Usually playing a6 and h6 is condemned, but as White's play is also rather slow (8.a3 and 9.Bf4 do nothing for White's development) they might  be justified. So for the moment my choice is 9...a6.
  

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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #29 - 02/09/06 at 23:35:03
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I would like to ask ArKhein about 7.Bd3 Nc6! 8.a3 h6!?


The standard reply is 9.Bf4 (Leisebein give Be3 as =/+ after somes moves, and give a !? mark to Bh4 with somes analysis) and Black have a good chance to obtain (=/+) after 9..a6 and 9..g5(according to Leisebein's analysis), while 9..Bd6 would be (=), and 9..Nd5 10.Nxd5 exd5 11.0-0 give White (=) at worst, and can hope for more.

In practice, White scored well with 9.Bf4, only 9..a6 scored well (2.5/4 for Black - Chesslive)where I think Black can hope for (=/+). So 8..h6 a good line for Black if played properly, White's play is not totally nice but it's still better than (-/+) from the Zilbermints gambit (see my old analysis in the Euwe Defense Thread)

I don't know theses lines that much because I have practicaly never faced them for the moment, most of my analysis here comes from Leisebein, but if you want to discuss about 8..h6 9.Bf4, give me your next move and we will try to construct somes standards lines.

And about 7.Qd2: 7..h6 8.Bh4 or 7..Nc6 8.0-0-0 Nd5 9.Bxe7 Ncxe7 and I think White is not so bad but I don't play this sub-variation, so maybe Rajmund will be better to defend the White side.
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #28 - 02/09/06 at 02:33:55
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7.Qd2 o-o comes close to an error. I propose either 7...Nc6 8.o-o-o Nd5 9.Bxe7 Ncxe7 or Schiller's recommendation 7...h6 8.Be3 Nc6 or 8.Bf4 Bb4. White has a hard time to prove his compensation.
I would like to ask ArKhein about 7.Bd3 Nc6! 8.a3 h6!?
  

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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #27 - 02/08/06 at 17:26:38
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The move c5 in this variant is for white probably the most threat but white has a possibility to use other plan with suspense the move Bd3. I prefer the strategy  with sequence Qd2, 0-0-0, Qe1. Chance white are then essentially better... Cool

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 (or 1e4! d5 2.d4! dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3) 5...e6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Qd2! 0-0 8.0-0-0 c5 9.Qe1!?  Shocked cxd4 10.Rxd4 Qa5
  • [10...Bd7 11.Qg3 Nc6 12.Rh4 g6
    (12...Rc8 13.Bd3 g6 14.Rf1 Qc7 15.Qe1 Rfd8 16.Kb1 Qa5 (16...Be8 17.Qe3 Qb6 18.Qf4 Nh5 19.Rxh5 gxh5 20.Qg3 Kh8 21.Bxe7 Nxe7 22.Qe5+ Kg8 23.Ne4+/-) 17.Ra4 Qc7 18.Qh4 Nd5 19.Nxd5 exd5 20.Rf4+/-)
    13.Bc4 Qa5 14.Rf1 Rad8 15.Kb1 Bc8 16.Rh3 Qb4 17.Qh4 Nh5 18.a3 Bxg5 19.Nxg5 Qe7 20.g4 Rd4 21.Bb3 f6 22.Nf3 Rf4 23.Rg1 Qc5 24.Qe1 Ng7 25.Ne4 Qa5 26.Qe3 g5 27.Nd6 Qb6 28.Qd3 h5 29.Rxh5 Nxh5 30.Qg6+ Ng7 31.Nxc8 Qe3 32.Re1 Rxf3 33.Bxe6++-]

11.Bd3 [11.Ra4?! Qc7 12.Bd3 Rd8!13.Qh4 Rxd3! 14.cxd3 b5=/+] 11...Nc6
[11...Nbd7 12.Qg3! Bb4 (12...Bc5 13.Rh4 g6 14.Bxf6 Be3+ 15.Kb1 Nxf6 16.Re1 Bb6 17.Re5+-) 13.Bd2 e5 14.Rh4 Nc5 15.Nxe5 Re8 16.Bxh7+ Nxh7 17.Nxf7 Re6 18.Rg4+-;
11...Rd8 12.Ra4 Qb6 13.Ne4! Nxe4 (13...Nbd7 14.Qh4 h6 15.Bxh6 Nf8 16.Ne5 Rd5 17.Rf1+/-) 14.Bxe7 Rxd3 15.Qxe4 Rd5 16.Ng5+/-]
12.Ra4!? Qc5
[12...Qb6?! 13.Qh4 h6 (13...h5 14.g4 Nb4 15.gxh5 Nxd3+ 16.cxd3 Qc6 17.Rf1+-) 14.Bxh6+-;
12...Qc7 13.Qh4 Rd8 (13...h5 14.g4 Nb4 15.gxh5 Nxd3+ 16.cxd3 Qc6 17.Rf1+-) 14.Bxf6 Bxf6 15.Qxh7+ Kf8 16.Re1 a6 17.Qh8+ Ke7 18.Qh5 Kf8 (18...Qb6 19.a3 Kf8 20.Ng5+/-) 19.Ng5 Bxg5+ 20.Qxg5 f6 21.Qh5+/-]
13.Bxf6 Bxf6 14.Ne4 Qe7 [14...Qf5 15.Kb1 Qf4 16.Rf1 Bd8 17.Neg5 Qxa4 18.Bxh7+ Kh8 19.Be4+-] 15.Kb1 Rd8
[15...g6 16.Nxf6+ Qxf6 17.h4 Bd7 18.Ra3 e5 (18...Qe7 19.g4 e5 20.g5 Bf5 21.Nd2 Bxd3 22.Rxd3 Nb4 23.Re3 Qe6 24.Rb3 a5 25.Ne4 Rfc8 26.c3 Nd5 27.Rb5 Ra6 28.Qd1 Nf4 29.Re1 Kg7 30.Rxb7 Rb6 31.Rxb6 Qxb6 32.Qd6+/-) 19.h5 Rad8 20.Rb3 b6 21.Rc3 Rc8 22.hxg6 fxg6 23.Bc4+ Kh8 24.Rh6 Rfe8 25.Qh1 Re7 26.Nh4 Be8 27.Rf3+/-]
16.Nxf6+ Qxf6 17.Rf1 Qe7 18.Rh4 h6 19.a3 Bd7 20.g4 f6 [20...Bc8 21.g5->] 21.Qe4 f5 22.Qe3+/- Huh
  
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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #26 - 02/06/06 at 12:44:49
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From what I can see, I recommended 15...Be7 in this line nearly two months ago, echoed by Bonzai more recently. Black's thematic defensive idea is ...f5, followed by bringing the queen over to the kingside, so 15...Qe7 seems illogical.

Off the top of my head I can't imagine the problem with grabbing on b2, either, but without a board this sort of position is not one to analyse blindfolded. It just seems a little too risky grabbing a third pawn while white amasses his forces, and also the bishop can't really get back to aid the defence (since going back to f6 runs into the same sort of problems until black has played ...f5).

Black probably has improvements earlier, also, but his position here remains solid after ...Be7.
  

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Re: BDG: ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE
Reply #25 - 02/05/06 at 03:47:55
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The point is to get the Bd7 out of the way, and the Queen pinned, so White can attack on the Kingside.

Bonsai, thanks for the improvement! I just briefly looked at you suggestion  of 16 Nxf6 gf6  and it seems great! One possible continuation might be 17 Qg3+  Kh8  18 Qxc7  Rd8  19 Qb7 += . Material equality is restored, with an attacking position for White.  Now, if Black varies with  (17 Qg3+ Kh8  18 Qc7 ) 18...Be8 19 Qf4! forces at least a draw by repetition.

Contrary to what some people are saying, the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense to the BDG is not something that can be dismissed so easily!!

  
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