Normal Topic 4.Qb3 in the Dutch (Read 6071 times)
bravehoptoad
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Re: 4.Qb3 in the Dutch
Reply #7 - 02/04/06 at 18:13:37
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Right...wouldn't 1. d4 e6 2. Nf3 f4 3. c3 d5 leave White looking a little silly? What's that pawn doing on c3 in a Stonewall?
  
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Re: 4.Qb3 in the Dutch
Reply #6 - 02/04/06 at 03:14:41
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The setup c3/Qb3 has done quite well against my beloved IZ. Still after 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.c3 Nf6 4.Qb3 Be7 5.Bg5 o-o 6.Nbd2 d6 7.Bxf6 Bxf6 8.e4 fxe4 9.Nxe4 Kh8 I do not think, there is anything wrong with Black's position.
A Stonewall setup must be good too, but is not to my taste.
  

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Re: 4.Qb3 in the Dutch
Reply #5 - 02/03/06 at 23:07:11
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In Dvoretsky and Yusupov's excellent book Positional Play they give some analysis of these c3 and Qb3 lines.  They seem to come to the conclusion that it's harmless if Black know's what he's doing; Black has numerous ways to reach an equal position.  See Khenkin - Conquest, 1991 for one.
  
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Re: 4.Qb3 in the Dutch
Reply #4 - 02/03/06 at 15:27:07
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CraigEvans wrote on 02/03/06 at 14:24:07:
The problem is, after 2...g6, the Stonewall setup would be much less effective and it would provide 4.Qb3 with excellent merit. Now, this isn't the main line against the Leningrad, so I can't believe it to be so critical as to force an inferior Stonewall. However, the idea certainly looks interesting.


Well, I think you have to be a bit flexible, especially with Black.  The system with c3 and Qb3 is, I think I am right in saying, - Dutch experts please correct me if I am wrong! - a reasonably popular way for White to circumvent the main lines of the Leningrad and if you're going to play the Leningrad with any frequency (and I'm not sure you should, given your comments!!) you are going to have to have something against it!

For my part, I'm not completely convinced that this is an 'inferior' Stonewall.  Admittedly, it is more usual to play ...e6 and ...Bd6 and this is associated with an attack on the kingside.  But more modern treatments of the Stonewall do not concentrate so much on all-out kingside attacks - very often, Black will play ...b6, ...Bb7 and ...c5, for example, trying to create central counterplay.  In this case, is Black's bishop so badly placed on g7?  I don't think so.  And it is much harder for White to exchange it off there, too!  Don't forget, also, that in a Stonewall structure, the moves c3 and Qb3 are not particularly helpful for White.

At the very least you have an unbalanced and complicated struggle ahead - which is what you want, no?
  

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CraigEvans
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Re: 4.Qb3 in the Dutch
Reply #3 - 02/03/06 at 14:24:07
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I think the queen trade was partly influenced by my opponent's grade, and my contempt for the stonewall. I thought, with the queens off, I should be able to at least castle and, while white would have an edge, I might be able to cling on. As soon as I played it though, I realised castling was nearly impossible, and white had a pretty nasty threat with Nc4-b6 which is hard to prevent.

The problem is, after 2...g6, the Stonewall setup would be much less effective and it would provide 4.Qb3 with excellent merit. Now, this isn't the main line against the Leningrad, so I can't believe it to be so critical as to force an inferior Stonewall. However, the idea certainly looks interesting.

Alumbrado, I think I'm getting calmer in my old age - less than half my games have been gambits this year, and I'm even looking at the Exchange Spanish and positional replies to the Petroff... however, I completely agree with Petrosian's view, and in fact have played 1.d4 (despite my hatred of it) when I've known to expect a Dutch.

My OTB results with 1.d4? 4 games, average opponent of approx 1900, and 4/4. One Colle (played due to my 2000+ opponent's hatred of the system, back when I was a lowly 1500), one BDG (against possibly the worst tactician for a 1900 I have ever seen), and - you've probably guessed it, 2/2 against the Dutch. One game with 2.h3, and one with the old mainline. 

8arms, by the Classical, do you mean the setup with ...e6, ...d6 and (sometimes) ...c6? It's a system I've looked at but never thought too highly of. I've got to admit, I know very little about the Dutch's theory and lines, but basically the setup I ain for is h7-g6-f5, pawns on d6 and c6, knights on d7 and f6, and the queen on e8 or (preferably) c7, aiming to get ...e5 in. This is the only setup I have any respect for within the Dutch complex and, if it can be forcibly avoided with this Qb3 idea then 2...g6 is certainly not a good way of going about it.
  

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8arms
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Re: 4.Qb3 in the Dutch
Reply #2 - 02/03/06 at 14:23:40
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Hey, hang on guys!

What's up with the Classical Dutch - I play this as Black and find it very fluid compared to the Leningrad Dutch setups in which Black has already committed itself to playing ...g6 tempting White into launching full scale attacks on the kingside.

I, do have, Neil McDonald's 'Starting Out ...' book on the Dutch Defence which is okay but not as good as Simon Williams' 'Play the Classical Dutch' and although he's quite biased on the Black side of this defence, the way he expresses himself is very clear and demonstrates what Black need to achieve whilst handling this defence.

Does anyone here play the Classical setup against the Dutch?
Wouldn't mind discussing some things on it.
  
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Re: 4.Qb3 in the Dutch
Reply #1 - 02/03/06 at 12:44:34
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Craig

Given your enthusiasm for sharp positions, dubious gambits and all things reckless, it is no surpise at all to me that you should succumb to the questionable delights of the Leningrad Dutch.  I am amazed to see you playing 6...Qb6 and 7...Qxb3, though - that can't be the right way to go.

There are plenty of people here who will be able to advise you better than I can, but my understanding is that Black is indeed recommended by Lady Theory to adopt a set-up with ...c6 and ...d5.

In Neil McDonald's recent (very good, imho) Starting Out book on the Dutch (my only real reference other than the relevant volume of Khalifman's OWATK) he recommends prospective Dutch players to read the Stonewall section even if they are planning to play the Classical or Leningrad, as there will always be the opportunity (or necessity!) to transpose to a Stonewall set-up, so it is good to be familiar with the positions that arise.

My interest is mainly from the White side, and while in principle I subscribe to the view, attributed to Petrosian, that "if you think your opponent will play the Dutch, you certainly shiouldn't prevent him", I will concede that in practice I have not necessarily fared as well as this would suggest - although one of my losses was against a certain McDonald, N who outrated me somewhat  Embarrassed
  

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4.Qb3 in the Dutch
02/03/06 at 12:27:56
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Most people who've been around these forums a while will know my opinion on the Dutch - i.e. it's a rotten opening verging on unsound, and anyone who plays it deserves everything they get.

With this in mind, last night my 2250 opponent (who almost always plays 1.e4) surprised me with 1.Nf3 and, given my lack of preparation and my determination to at least get a sharp position, I replied with 1...f5 (the point being that the g4 lines and staunton are now ruled out, and the Lisistin Gambit 2.e4 doesn't bother me as a Latvian player). After 2.d4 g6 (I'm not entirely sure of the tricky lines after 2...Nf6 3.Bg5 which are popular at club level), my opponent played 3.c3 Bg7 4.Qb3!?, which I had no clue how to play against. I continued with 4...Nf6 5.Bf4 c6 6.Nbd2 Qb6?! 7.e3 Qxb3?! 8.ab! and white had an undoubtedly huge edge, and I was quite comprehensively crushed in the resulting position (admittedly after a huge mistake involving ...h6 and ...O-O allowing Nh4 followed by g4!).

While I appreciate any attempt to ruin the dutch, it strikes me that this c3, Qb3 line should not be so critical, so could someone help me out with what the correct reply? (I'm guessing a sort of stonewall needs to be adopted, but the Bg7 looks weak there and the hole on e5/e6 seems devestating.

Cheers,
Craig
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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