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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Best Game of all time (Read 12004 times)
MNb
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #30 - 02/25/06 at 21:29:49
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Maybe I must describe it in another way. Of course a mistake is necessary to decide a game. So for the best game of all time the mistake must be a very normal, logical, positionally founded move - like ...d5 in the Steinitz-Von Bardeleben game. To be the tactically best game of all time, the refutation must be hard to find, involve a myriad of sidelines. The loser must play the most stubborn defence, which gives the winner most chances to fail. Still the winner doesn't and brings the point home. Afterwards all analysts must break their teeth in trying to find unexpected salvations and shorter, easier wins.

This does not exclude the fact, that Tal ao played many brilliant games. But if his sacrifice(s) can be refuted, then his game(s) cannot be the best game of all time. This is also true for many Spielmann games.
Take for instance Spielmann-Hönlinger. Black made a positional mistake, where these days many strong amateurs would have found the right, equalizing continuation. Spielmann's refutation was absolutely brilliant, but Black's fault was too obvious. Again: not the best game of all time.

In previous posts I have mentioned a couple of games, which match these standards.

Regarding that Danish Gambit game: I don't think it is a very good game. But I challenge you to find one single other game, in which the winner gave smothered mate to a king in the centre with his only remaining knight.
  

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woofwoof
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #29 - 02/25/06 at 06:16:04
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Quote:

Also thx everyone to list some memorable drawn games.


I have nothing against drawn games if they were like those listed so far. Not the types we find so often these days - drawn in less than 20 moves with hardly any hint of action being planned out. One of the biggest culprits for playing these types of draws is a certain WCh with an unpronouncable illness. But that is for another thread.

Here is a memorable decisive Tal game : Tal-Geller Riga 1958. Tal saccing a bishop & then later a rook for initiative. Geller defending very skillfully, but unfortunately blundered tragically on move 25. He should have played 25....QxB instead of 25....PxB which would have prolonged the fight, & lead to a memorable draw with best play.
  

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micawber
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #28 - 02/25/06 at 01:18:55
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Mnb. Thx for reminding me of many a fine game from Spielman. Though I do recognize quite a few from Spielman's memorable book 'The art of sacrifice in chess'.
Your example game is quite nice. But from move 14 or 15 on it's not really difficult to calculate:
the smothering mate-motiv is well know and forced. It was already a standard combinational motive at the end of the nineteenth century (though it commonly occurs mirrored with a King on h8). So while you're entitled to your own opinion (that Kasparov, Tall and Shirov never played a combination to match this game) I do not share it.
I still challenge you to define the best/strongest defence. More so because of your comment 
"Who can blame Lasker for playing ...h5?"

Applying your criteria, excludes many older games from 'the competition' because of the progress in opening-theory. If new methods are found to play for an advantage in a variations all the older games in such a variation are by definition rendered incorrect. This might mean that we must regard all games with 1.e4,e5 2.f4,exf 3.Nf3 as incorrect because white 'overlooked' black's strong reply 3...g5!  Wink

Also thx everyone to list some memorable drawn games. Spasski-Fischer (19th game) is indeed memorable. If only for Fischer finding the only saving move Qd2!! over the board.
  
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woofwoof
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #27 - 02/24/06 at 07:55:59
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@MNb - thanx very much for the game. It was beautiful! Kiss Its a pity we dont see this kind of chess these days.

@Kevin- The 13th game of Fischer-Spassky 1972 you cited was probably the most complex, interesting and original in WCh history. As much as i too have enjoyed that game very much, i personally would regard it as among the best games ever played but not a candidate for best all time. Here both players blundered in a big way. The redeeming factor was that they were able to find the best moves to compensate for the earlier blunders. 1st blunder was Spassky's 29.Nd6?! which Fischer replied with the very strong but obvious 29....QxKt which followed some simplification which left Spassky with doubled pawns on the c-file. Then Fischer blundered with 33...f5? which allowed Spassky to establish control of the dark squares with his bishop & threaten to promote the passed d pawn. Fischer later tried to avoid a draw by exchanging his bishop for 3 pawns leading to a postion which should draw with correct play by white unfortunately Spassky played 68.Rd1+? which loses immediately. The simple 68.Rc3+ would have held the draw. Fascinating struggle nonetheless despite the blunders.
  

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Willempie
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #26 - 02/24/06 at 07:18:22
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MNb wrote on 02/24/06 at 02:49:59:
@Willempie
I am more than willing to prove you, that both Steinitz and Von Bardeleben made two mistakes in their famous and beautiful game - but in a separate thread. I am looking forward to another debate with you.  Cool

I would be very curious what Rolf Schwartz has to say about it Wink
  

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MNb
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #25 - 02/24/06 at 05:10:16
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@woofwoof
"If a sac,even if its wrong, is sufficient to give the opponent huge problems otb its 'correct' enough in my book"
According to this line of reasoning the best game ever is:

1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Lc4 Pf6 5.Pf3 Pxe4 6.0-0 Pd6 7.Pxc3 Pxc4 8.Te1+ Le7 9.Pd5 Pc6 10.Lg5 f6 11.Tc1 b5 12.Txc4 bxc4 13.Pe5 fxg5 14.Dh5+ g6 15.Pf6+ Lxf6 16.Pxg6+ De7 17.Txe7+ Lxe7 18.Pe5+ Kd8 19.Pf7+ Ke8 20.Pd6+ Kd8 21.De8+ Txe8 22.Pf7# 1-0

Young,F - Doré,L [C21], Boston, 1892
Atkins,H - Jacobs,H [C21], London, 1915

White's sacs were wrong, but the problems for the opponent were huge enough to lead to the finest smothered mate known in chess history.
There is no Tal, Kasparov or Sjirov combination which can match this one.

  

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MNb
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #24 - 02/24/06 at 02:49:59
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@Willempie
I am more than willing to prove you, that both Steinitz and Von Bardeleben made two mistakes in their famous and beautiful game - but in a separate thread. I am looking forward to another debate with you.  Cool

@Micawber and evt others:

By no means I want to diminish the beauty of all those Tal games, nor of Steinitz-Von Bardeleben - I maintain, that there were three errors in the critical phase of that game. Note, that I do not blame VB for playing 7...d5.

But the title of this thread is "The Best Game of all time". Such a game should fulfill my criteria imo, when it comes to tactics. If Steinitz had played 15.Qa4+ Kf7 16.Ne5+, he would have had my vote.
The same for Rosanes-Anderssen, Breslau 1863: a very beautiful game, GM's of the 21st century could be proud of playing a game like this. Still 10...bxc6 was an error and should have been replaced by 10...Nxc6.

So these games are not better than say
Spielmann-Eljasjov, München 1903
Spielmann-Nimzovitsj, München 1905 (the 19 moves game)
Spielmann-Janovsky, Karlsbad 1907
Mieses-Spielmann, Regensburg 1910 (3rd game)
Spielmann-Rubinstein, Karlsbad 1911
Spielmann-Réti, Abbazia 1912
Rubinstein-Spielmann, San Sebastian 1912
Rubinstein-Spielmann, Bad Pistyan 1912
Spielmann-Moller, Goteborg 1920
Spielmann-Grünfeld, Teplice Sanov 1922
Kmoch-Spielmann, Semmering 1926
Tartakower-Spielmann, Semmering 1926
Spielmann-Nimzovitsj, Semmering 1926
Spielmann-Hönlinger, Vienna 1929
Spielmann-Grünfeld, Karlsbad 1929
Spielmann-Capablanca, Karlsbad 1929
Pirc-Spielmann, Rogatska Slatina 1931
Spielmann-Bogoljubow, Semmering 1932 (9)
Gereben-Spielmann, Sopron 1934
Sjoholm-Spielmann, Kalmar 1941.
All very beautiful games, but not the best game ever according to my standards.

For Micawber I have two fascinating draws:
Spielmann-Capablanca, Moscow 1925
Spielmann-Lasker, Moscow 1935.

Here is another golden oldie: Pillsbury-Lasker, Nürnberg 1896. Who can blame Black for playing 18...h5? The punishment afterwards is 100% correct and needed no less than 4 sacrifices. Moreover Lasker did not err anymore.
« Last Edit: 02/24/06 at 04:56:34 by MNb »  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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kevinludwig
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #23 - 02/23/06 at 21:12:55
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Some of my favorites:

I'm sure everyone knows exactly what this one is:
Reti-Alekhine 1925: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1012326

This is the famous Alekhine defence game with the Rook vs. 5 pawns ending:
Spassky-Fischer 1972: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1128889

The game where shirov plays Re4, not capturing anything, and the rook can be taken 2 different ways:
Kramnik-Shirov 1994: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1085871
  
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woofwoof
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #22 - 02/23/06 at 17:47:31
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RotGut wrote on 02/23/06 at 16:59:20:
  If the sacrifice acomplishes the objective despite how unsound it may be than it is a winner in my book. Screw theory...and all those dang computers with their endless streams of analysis......


I generally agree with this view. If a sac,even if its wrong, is sufficient to give the opponent huge problems otb its 'correct' enough in my book at least. Aftrerall that's what chess is all abt in the 1st place: creating problems & difficulties for your opponent. 

The Tal-Botvinnik game quoted by micawber was a good example of this. That unsound sac was sufficient to trouble probably the most logical & scientific player ever. With the clock ticking, to find an adequate defense or refutation is next to impossible. Hence most of these are found in intense post mortem analysis. And of course the most impt thing was Tal won.

But of course many other aggressors wouldnt sac like Tal (save maybe Topalov). Fischer's & Spassky's sacs generally hv some kind of conclusive basis, whereas Tal's quite often leaves an unclear position. So Tal relies more on intuition rather than concrete assessment of the final position at his event horizon so to speak. More often than not he has his opponent's clock as his ally. But still, his games are a joy to behold & very interesting nonetheless.

Anyway, Tal did say "There are 2 types of sacrifices. Correct ones and mine"


"If correctness is an issue, than the correct choice would be a drawn game where attack and defence held the balance. However no drawn game has been suggested in this thread!" - Try that Spassky-Fischer 1972 game (cant remember which no.)where Spassky saced 2 minor pieces for initiative, & Fischer counter sacs with a whole rook. All action being played in a space of 5 moves by each side. After the storm, the game eventually ended in a peaceful draw.
No outright blunders by both players here.

later edit: it was game 19. The 2nd Alekhine game of the c'ship.
  

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RotGut
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #21 - 02/23/06 at 16:59:20
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  If the sacrifice acomplishes the objective despite how unsound it may be than it is a winner in my book. Screw theory...and all those dang computers with their endless streams of analysis......
  
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micawber
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #20 - 02/23/06 at 16:30:26
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Willempie,
Thx for your clarification and additional info on von Barleben.

I am not sure that I agree with one of MNB's criteria: The strongest defence.
I will give an example. Suppose the loser had at one point the choice:
a) a relative simple variation that resulted in a lost but technically dificult endgame.
b) a complex variation where white should play several difficult unique moves
that resulted in a clearly won position.
Which of the two is the strongest defence? Which of the two is the best practical defence?
The two dont necesserily coincide.

Another point about correctness. In the Geller-Euwe game I choose, white could have played a
stronger defence (though black would still have good winning chances). Euwe could have eliminated
this variation with an intermediair move. Bronstein relates that it took several grandmasters a week! to find this possibility and adds that Geller had no chance at all to find it "over the board". He also puts the question if this diminishes the beauty of the game. He answered the question himself; he didnt think so.
So I think I am still in good company with my game of choice. Smiley [even if it doesnt match your criteria exactly].

The criteria should eliminate quite a few Tall games. But he played several games that reside in our
collective memory. These games could easily qualify as best game. An example: the spectacular piece sac Nf4!?, against Botwinnik in their WC-match. 
Eventually this sac was proved incorrect. But it took great effort to find the refutation. Again it was hardly possible to do so in OTB. The fact that there was a refutation hardly diminishes the pleasure to replay this game and read Tall's honest anotations. Perhaps we've grown more critical now that everyone with a powerfull computer and  fritz can find out in 1 night, what took several GM's days to establish. Angry   But not only correctness but risk and entertainment-value should be considered as well.
If correctness is an issue, than the correct choice would be a drawn game where attack and defence held the balance. However no drawn game has been suggested in this thread!
« Last Edit: 02/23/06 at 21:19:40 by micawber »  
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Willempie
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #19 - 02/23/06 at 11:59:17
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MNb wrote on 02/23/06 at 02:48:47:
Iirc it was Edward Winter on his historical site, who casted doubt on the Von Badeleben story.
Von Bardeleben's suicide had nothing to do with that 1895 Steinitz game; he lived on for at least 14 years! In 1904 he shared first place in the tournament of the German Chess Federation in Coburg.
VB had a very pessimistic character. At the end of his life he had wasted his family fortune and had fallen back into poverty. Here you will find the reasons for his suicide.

@Katar:
Marshall in 1918 had left his peak for already more than 10 years, so you are contradicting yourself ....

My standards for absolute tactical top games are:
1. the combinations must be correct.
2. the combinations must be necessary.
3. the loser must conduct the strongest possible defence.

Otherwise I easily could mention 15 Spielmann wins.

Ah thanks. 

You're 3 points btw dont exclude Steinitz-Von Bardeleben. Wink
BtW another one of my favourites Karpov-Spassky 10th match game.
  

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woofwoof
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #18 - 02/23/06 at 05:55:08
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MNb wrote on 02/23/06 at 02:48:47:

My standards for absolute tactical top games are:
1. the combinations must be correct.
2. the combinations must be necessary.
3. the loser must conduct the strongest possible defence.


I guess most of Tal's games do not meet your requirements. Quite often his combinations are much later proven wrong. That being said, I'm pretty sure there are better & simpler ways to maintain his initiative (though I cant ind any yet) & his opponents always go very wrong when meeting one of his sacs (most probably due to sheer shock), neither do they find good moves later in the game due to time pressure.

But as 1 author wrote , something like "tho the sac was proven incorrect it hardly detracts the play of Tal, and the most impt thing was, he won"
  

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MNb
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #17 - 02/23/06 at 02:48:47
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Iirc it was Edward Winter on his historical site, who casted doubt on the Von Badeleben story.
Von Bardeleben's suicide had nothing to do with that 1895 Steinitz game; he lived on for at least 14 years! In 1904 he shared first place in the tournament of the German Chess Federation in Coburg.
VB had a very pessimistic character. At the end of his life he had wasted his family fortune and had fallen back into poverty. Here you will find the reasons for his suicide.

@Katar:
Marshall in 1918 had left his peak for already more than 10 years, so you are contradicting yourself ....

My standards for absolute tactical top games are:
1. the combinations must be correct.
2. the combinations must be necessary.
3. the loser must conduct the strongest possible defence.

Otherwise I easily could mention 15 Spielmann wins.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: The Best Game of all time
Reply #16 - 02/23/06 at 02:06:31
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Surely the best game is a titanic struggle between 2 players at the peak of the game.

No one would argue, for example, that a first-round knockout is the BEST boxing match ever-- regardless of how brilliant the victor performed.

Therefore i am shocked to see so many lopsided and <30 move examples in this thread.  The Kramnik-Anand game is a beauty because it is a monstrous struggle, and both players are top 5 or better in the world.

Another good choice no one has mentioned is Capa - Marshall NY 1918.  It has an interesting story and features the world debut of the Marshall Attack.
  

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