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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Classical Dutch/IZ game question (Read 12052 times)
slates
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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #16 - 03/28/06 at 09:05:37
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Thanks for this analysis, MNb – took me a while to get around to looking through this, and I’m not sure I grasp all of it fully, but I certainly like 12…b6 13.Rb5 Bc5.  It does indeed show me that 12…b6 isn’t at all bad – it looks odd, but seems fine, as has been mentioned by others here.  The other lines get rather messy but also seem fine, although I’m not well qualified to evaluate…..

I'll look at the lines Paul gives later, thanks.

I still really like the IZ, and intend to work more on understanding it, but whilst I’ve been searching for something else (more ‘solid’?) I’ve found that there is so much work to do in other defences, the Dutch just appears on the board so much more readily…..  Smiley
  
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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #15 - 03/27/06 at 13:27:02
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  I play a lot of Reti  2. c4 stuff  hence I use a quick b4 against these  systems.  The downfall is sometimes I  lose the grip on the center if I waste time on the queen’s wing  (the Dutch, KID  and the e5 English give off similar feel …. )    I think black can use an attack against white's king to gain equality    

1.d4 e6
2.c4 f5
3.g3 Nf6
4.Bg2 Be7
5.Nf3 0–0
6.0–0 d6 
7.Nc3 Ne4 
8.Qc2 Nxc3
9.bxc3 Nc6 
10.e4 e5
11.dxe5 dxe5
12.Rb1  


As black I would play   12...Qe8  

13.Be3

or     13.Rb5 a6 14.Rd5 Be6 15.exf5 Rxf5 16.Re1 Qg6!? 

I like this move. Threatens an attack and might lead to white simplifying the position…in which case I like blacks chances after the major pieces are gone…for example  17. Qe4 Re8 18. Nxe5 Nxe5 19. Rxe5 Rxe5 20. Qxe5 Bd6  etc…..)

13...f4!?  With the idea of liquidating the isolated center pawn and initiating an attack on the king.  For example   
14.gxf4 exf4 15.Bd4 Qg6 16.Kh1 b6  17. Rg1 Bg4  18 Ne5 Nxe5 19. Bxe5 Qg5 with a strong attack ;

12...fxe4
13.Nd2 Qd3!? 
14.Bxe4 Qxc2 
15.Bxc2 Rb8 
16.Be4 Bd7
17.Bd5+ Kh8 
18.Ne4 Nd8…


I can’t see how white can claim an advantage with his queenside pawns the way they are , also blacks’ position looks poised to gain some initiative..

Although there is probably a lot of holes in my analysis….(being the professional kibitzer that I am)  
« Last Edit: 03/27/06 at 17:56:14 by Paul123 »  
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John Cox(Guest)
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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #14 - 03/24/06 at 13:13:12
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'Ugly' moves - indeed, a good move is a good move before it is any other kind of move, to repeat one of Rowson's moe quotable aphorisms.

I seem to remember that my computer thought that 12...Qd6 was a good move.

With regard to Simon being outmatched, there certainly isn't 300 points between the two: SW's completely creamed Agrest for one on the black side of the Dutch and had Korchnoi grovelling recently. Of course Shirov is much stronger, but I think it's being overstated here.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #13 - 03/24/06 at 07:22:45
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My point was just to say that my mind seams to be positionally adjusted, wich sometimes automatically avoids me of seeing what could be the best move.... Maybe not that interesting for you to read about how my mind seams to function Roll Eyes, but I am sure I am not alone.... It was just an interesting observation for me related to my study of "chess for zebras"...
Whether 12..b6 can be considered "ugly" as long it seams to be one of blacks best options is another discussion..... Wink
  
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ErictheRed(Guest)
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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #12 - 03/23/06 at 20:56:26
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I've been analyzing 12...Bc5 on my own a bit, and I think it's quite interesting.  If 13. Rb5 b6, we've transposed to the line that MNb gave; I think Black is fine here, maybe even slightly better (but that's probably just my personal preference).   

I don't think 12...b6 is an "ugly" move; once the rook moves from a8 there shouldn't be any problems on the long diagonal.  I admit it's a little ugly in that weakens the light squares, but it's probably necessary sooner or later to keep the rook on the b-file at bay.  Also, don't forget, that chess is relative; Black's queenside may be slightly weakened after 12...b6, but it's still nicer than White's!
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #11 - 03/23/06 at 03:21:42
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Neither Fritz 6 nor I have an Elo of 2800+. Still I dare to challenge earlier remarks on the Sjirov-Williams game. Indeed 12...a6 seems to be the cause of Black's problems. Typical IZ: one wrong evaluation and the position goes downhill. As 12...Qe8 13.Rb5 a6 14.Rd5 Be6 15.exf5 Lxf5 16.Qb2 looks more or less similar to the game, I don't think this is the solution. More appealing is 12...b6 (why is this ugly? White cannot take benefit from the long diagonal - tactics are at least as important as positional optics) 13.Rb5 Bc5 looks reasonable. But what I like most, is playing for another diagonal: b1-h7.
So 12...fxe4 13.Rd1 Qe8 14.Ng5 Bf5 (Fritz 6 gives Bxg5 15.Bxg5 Bf5 16.Be3 b6 17.Bxe4 Qg6 but I don't grasp, why the knight should be a stronger bishop than the bishop) 15.Nxe4 b6 16.Be3 Na5 17.c5 Nc4 and Black looks OK to me - maybe even more. There is also 15...Rb8 16.Qe2 Qg6 17.Rb5 a6 18.Rbd5 Be6 and now the exchange sac seems to be incorrect.
White also has 13.Ne1 e3 (I don't trust Bf5 14.Rxb7 Na5 15.Rb5 Nxc4, but I might be wrong) 14.Bxe3 Qe8 15.Nd3 Qg6 16.Qe2 Bf5 17.Rfd1 b6 (an option is Rad8 18.Bd5+ Kh8 19.Rxb7 Bg4 20.f3 Rxd5 21.fxg4 Rd7) 18.Rb5 Rad8 19.Nxe5 Nxe5 20.Rxd8 Bxd8 21.Rxe5 Bf6 and if anyone is better, then Black.
I don't pretend to be this the final word. Whities, who want to repeat Sjirov's success, will not find that easy.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #10 - 03/22/06 at 08:23:44
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Smiley  I felt the same about 12...b6.   

Great book, 'Chess for Zebras'.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #9 - 03/21/06 at 20:52:08
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slates wrote on 03/18/06 at 09:48:31:
... So I looked again at it with the help of Fritz 9, which seemed to prefer 12...Qe8 or 12...b6. 


Interesting to see what a computer with ELO ~2800 suggests.
Too me 12..b6 seams to an awful positional move I probably wouldnt even consider..... Undecided But tactically it seams to hold up. Black should just be careful not to open up the long diagonal. 
I should get back to my "chess for zebras"....
  
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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #8 - 03/18/06 at 09:48:31
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OK, I'm not at all worried about the viability of the line as I've only faced it once - I play most of my games online and at quite a 'casual' level, so most players if they even get to 7.Nc3 don't know much theory beyond there (like myself) and usually opt for the more natural looking recapture with the Queen.  I was just interested to see what Williams would do against a player ranked so highly as Shirov - I know Williams has beaten GMs such as Joe Gallagher with his pet defence, but with Shirov being even higher up the food chain I thought it might be worthwhile me trying to understand what was going on here.  As you say, I would guess that Shirov knew exactly what Williams  was likely to play in this line - but even if he didn't I guess he would likely trust in his ability to pull in the whole point against a player he outranked so much.  In Yermolinsky's book he says 'You give me a good position after the first 10 moves with plenty of pieces on the board and I'll find a way to outplay anybody 300 rating pounts below me'.  Maybe that was likely to be the case in this game however the opening went, with all due respect to Simon Williams. But it has been useful for me to hear your comments, especially about the amount of compensation for the exchange, something I often struggle to evaluate.   
I see the point about the e5/f5 pawn duo and the Bishop.  So I looked again at it with the help of Fritz 9, which seemed to prefer 12...Qe8 or 12...b6. 
Anyway, thanks for your help and comments.  They'll prove useful for me should I run into this line, I think.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #7 - 03/17/06 at 21:53:56
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I just want to point out that if 14...Be6 is called into question (and I think the exchange sac is clearly better for White) you really need to forget about playing 12...a6.  That is, since 14...Be6 doesn't work, you really need to look for improvements at move 12 because 12...a6 was played to facilitate ...Be6.

I bet Shirov played this line knowing that Simon Williams would walk into his preparation; I've analysed these positions (i.e., after 7...Ne4 8.Qc2 Nxc3) a lot on my own, and I really think that 9.Qxc3 is the best move.  That is not to say that 9.bxc3 is completely harmless, but I do think it's pretty close to equal (especially after 9...Nc6! 10.e4 e5!).  Like I said, equal doesn't mean harmless, and stronger players can still outplay their opponents in splendid fashion if there are enough pieces on the board.  I just wouldn't freak out about this line some people do around here whenever a new game comes along...
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #6 - 03/17/06 at 21:39:08
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"wouldn't 11...Nxe5 have been better for Black than the game move?"
I doubt it. One of Black's goals in the IZ is that nice pawn duo on e5/e5. This controls the centre and opens the possibility of a kingside attack with f5-f4.
After 11...Nxe5 though Black will have problems activating the queen's bishop.
Just my 2SRD thought.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #5 - 03/17/06 at 12:17:22
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I think the book is a bit optimistic for black in this kind of position - white can easily get some very active bishops/rooks to compensate for the queenside pawn weaknesses. This isn't saying the positions are so bad for black but he's certainly not simply (or safely) better Smiley

White does need to keep the centre quite fluid though - hence e4 then meeting e5 with de rather than d5 etc. (8 Re1 is also a quite interesting way to prepare Qc2 & bc. More so than the book indicates anyway.).

In the game 12 .. a6 really does leave me slightly baffled. It looks like it's trying to prevent Rb5 (what else could it be for?) but 12 .. Qe8 13 Rb5 a6 14 Rd5 etc is simply a useful tempo up on the game for black. I can't help thinking I might well be missing something here though.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #4 - 03/17/06 at 08:46:58
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Thanks guys.  I looked again at the position and your comments.  The move that came to mind for me was 12...Rb8, but it doesn't really look right.  Maybe by that time I just didn't like Black much anyway.  I think MNb's comments seem about right.  

I'm not sure that this is in accordance with the general strategy of Black's central pawn play in this opening, but wouldn't 11...Nxe5 have been better for Black than the game move?  I think I prefer this move myself, but I'm not sure that it is the right way to play the position?
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #3 - 03/17/06 at 02:38:33
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I have browsed through the game a little. It was my impression, that Williams provoked Sjirov to sac an exchange and too late learned, that S. had more than enough. So I question 14...Be6.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch/IZ game question
Reply #2 - 03/16/06 at 23:31:31
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I wouldn't be too worried about the result of this one game; no offense to Mr. Williams, but he was pretty seriously outmatched.

I play this line as Black with good success, and while I've never had the position after 12. Rb1, I think the obvious place to look for an improvement is at move 12; I bet Black can do better than 12...a6.  My first instinct is to just play 12...Qe8, because Black will almost surely have to play this move anyway.  12...Bc5 is also worth a look, when a later Rxb7 (after the light squared bishop moves) can be met with ...Bb6.  I think even 12...Rb8 looks better than 12...a6, though this is only a cursory inspection.
  
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