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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Busting The Trompowsky (Read 23817 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #13 - 05/03/07 at 16:21:13
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Don't you both mean, "b1 rather than c3"?   Cheesy
I would perceive the Benjamin thing as being like a Tarrasch where White is behind on tempi, but able to develop his kingside straightforwardly.

I would still have some doubt about the soundness of that Blackmar-Diemer with the extra Bf4.  That placement strikes me as sub-optimal (might be an impediment in the f-file, might be a target for a ...Nd5 exchanging maneuver) ...
  
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Markovich
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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #12 - 05/03/07 at 14:44:48
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/03/07 at 12:59:11:
Kylemeister, surely that's the main line of the Steinitz French but with White's knight on g1 rather than f3, is it not? (Thus White has lost 3 tempi, f3-f4 and Bg5-f4-e3, and Black two Nf6-e4-f6).


Don't you mean, "c1 rather than c3?"
  

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IMJohnCox
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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #11 - 05/03/07 at 12:59:11
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Kylemeister, surely that's the main line of the Steinitz French but with White's knight on g1 rather than f3, is it not? (Thus White has lost 3 tempi, f3-f4 and Bg5-f4-e3, and Black two Nf6-e4-f6).
  
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nyoke
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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #10 - 05/02/07 at 13:23:19
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And there  is Bellon Lopez' 3.Bh4, too...
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #9 - 05/01/07 at 14:57:11
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I recall some people like, I believe, Joel Benjamin doing well with White after something like 5...e6 6. e5 Nfd7 7. Be3 c5 8. c3 Nc6 9. f4 Qb6 10. Qd2, though.     
  
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Markovich
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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #8 - 05/01/07 at 12:59:14
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I agree with Sevenviolets.  I am just playing 5...e6 and laughing at your pawn on f3 and your bishop on f4.  Soon I'll play ...c5.  What a waste of the white pieces.
  

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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #7 - 05/01/07 at 02:51:27
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But you never responded to my suggestion 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4!? dxe4 6.Nc3 Nd5!? 7.Nxd5 Qxd5 8.Bxc7 Nc6 9.c3 Bf5 10.Qb3 Qd7 11.Bg3 - see

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1170628234/2#2

my last post in that thread.
Was my suggestion that lame?
  

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GMEricPrie
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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #6 - 04/30/07 at 08:06:41
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Let us start from the beginning : 4.f3?! (4.e3! c5 5.Bd3 and if 5...Nf6 6.c3! or 4.Nd2) 4...Nf6 5.e4 dxe4 6.Nc3 Nd5! and Black is already better precisely because of the extra-tempo Bf4!
  
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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #5 - 04/29/07 at 21:11:36
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The late GM Edmar Mednis said white has full compensation for the pawn after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 dxe4 6.Nc3 exf3 7.Nxf3. He said the extra piece developed at f4 made it sound. I believe it was GM Velimrovich that used this successfully against other GMs back in the 80s. I saw the games in Tom Purser's BDG WORLD along with some others where Black played 5... e6 to transpose into a French.
  
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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #4 - 04/28/07 at 17:03:25
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Bladez, do you play the line  1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 c5 3.Bxf6 gxf6 4.d5 Qb6 5. Qc1 f5     ?
A few of my games have gone 6.c3 Bg7 7.g3 d6 8.Bg2 Nd7 9.Nh3 e5   which most white-players are unfamiliar with, but maybe 9...h5 is better. What are peoples opinions on this?
  
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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #3 - 03/27/06 at 01:11:49
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hello, as a sometime tromp player, would say 2... e6 is most annoying since prevents messy positions White is in the mood for (Stefanova/Prie's 3. Nd2 is not such a big deal: see Cox's d4 deviations book). Although it's not a very KID move, i do remember reading that Top prefers to avoid his opponents' strengths!?

2... Ne4 3. Bf4 d5 4. f3 Nf6 5. e4 looked barely just enough compensation for White last time I looked at it when Wells book was published.. my feeling was a hard-working Black can find a good defence.  You also need to know what to do against 4. e3 c5 5. Bd3, which is not that great, but Jobava lost two games in a row against Ivanchuk and Bruzon last year after going for the most combative 5... Nc6!? 6. Be4 de4 etc (probably Black should try the safer 5... cd4).

Otherwise I think 2... d5 is a pretty solid response. Most sources (Gallagher, Wells, Davies etc) recommend Bxf6/g3/Bg2 etc as most promising for White, but this is not so convincing if Black delays castling, and rams the h-pawn down for a mating attack (see NIC yb 74).
  
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BladezII
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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #2 - 03/27/06 at 00:25:05
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Toppy,

I admit that some time ago I had my issues vs the Tromp.  It was ugly.  Nowadays things are very different.  I take an oath by the 

1.d4  Nf6 
2.Bg5  c5

systems.   

As you might already know, I am a KID player like you are.  I think this system provides Black the type of positions very similar to the KID/benoni complex and my results vs the Tromp have never been better.
I think it is not that complex to learn.  I do feel that the strategic aims take center stage in these systems.  As in the KID, intuition and a solid knowledge of the tools available from your position is primordial.  Regardless of what's out there the adjustments by black are done out of the same strategic moves/motiffs from his position.

Is there a line you are worried about here ?

Angry
  

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Sevenviolets
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Re: Busting The Trompowsky
Reply #1 - 03/26/06 at 14:43:09
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1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3! Nf6 5.e4! 

5..dxe4? 6.Nc3 seems like BDG with a Bf4 plus. It is useful move.
After 6..exf3 7.Nxf3 e6 white can even transpose to the regular
Euwe with 8.Bg5!?, but of course he can play better than giving
a tempo back.

I feel like 5..e6! is the correct reply. French like position where
f3 and Bf4 are not too much useful moves. Game can continue
something like 5..e6! 6.e5 Nfd7 and now white´s bishop should
be on e3 and pawn on f4. I prefer to play black position here as 
the plan is very simple, according to basic rules of playing
French defense.



  
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TopNotch
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Busting The Trompowsky
03/25/06 at 19:19:16
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As a KID player the Tromp has proved a minor nuisance for me for some time now, not because I find it so terryifying but rather I find it difficult to get the type of positions I prefer playing. The theory of the normal KID options, namely 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 c5 and 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 c5 have spiralled out of control and the positions reached so absurd and unreliable, that to play either side is comparable to Russian Roulette.

Nevertheless due to some soon upcoming tournaments commitments, I resolved to put this Tromp issue to bed once and for all, and so far my preparation has led me to the following conclusion:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3! Nf6 5.e4!  

The above pseudo Tromp/BDG hybrid is in my opinion White's only serious try for a theoretical advantage. 

My question therefore is quite simple, how good really is this Tromp/BDG fusion and what is the best way to counter it.

Thoughts? 

Toppy Smiley
  

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