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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out book (Read 27311 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #26 - 09/09/06 at 20:39:28
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White generally retakes on e4 with the Knight in such positions (the Closed Sicilian case that is).  4...d4 looks rather dubious (Black could e.g. find himself in a reversed classical KID with a couple of tempi less); it looks more normal to play 4...de 5. Nxe4 Nd7 or 4...Nf6.   Maybe 4. d3 is designed to rule out ...d4 followed by ...d3; beyond that I don't know what would be new/independent/significant about it.   

  
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MNb
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #25 - 09/09/06 at 20:30:47
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Especially as 5...dxe4 does very well in practice: 8 games in 2005 and 2006, 5 wins - for Black. Overall Black scores 55%.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #24 - 09/09/06 at 20:13:12
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I'm looking at various lines in the 2...e6 setups against the Closed Sicilian.  In his Starting Out book, Palliser mentions that a line currently quite popular is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5 4.d3!? aiming to transpose to a KIA type of position after 4...d4 5.Nce2.

That's fine, but I thought one of the reasons behind White's placement of the Nd2 in the KIA vs the French was to avoid a queen trade after 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Nd2 de 4.de.  Is that not the case?  Because if it is, then 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5 4.d3!? de would seem to be relatively unfavorable for White from a purely theoretical standpoint. 
  
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dsanchez
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #23 - 05/30/06 at 21:36:13
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I just received Palliser's book today.  I've only been able to sneak peeks at it, but I'm pleased so far.  I have no idea if titled players will find anything useful, but it certainly looks well suited to U2000 players.   

One problem I face when playing these "system" openings is how to weigh the merits of certain thematic moves against others.  For instance, in the Closed Sicilian, White often has a choice between Nge2 or Nf3 (or even Nh3).  To the amateur, it sometimes looks like nothing more than a matter of taste.  But from what little I've read, Palliser makes some effort to explain when one type of setup might be preferable to another.

He also offers some tips on when White might be better advised to include an early f4 in the Be3 lines, or perhaps transpose to alternative setups such as the KIA.

Or, as another example, why Bh6 is less useful against ...e5 setups than ...e6 setups.  Good stuff.

He has included complete games of some old Spassky classics in the 6.f4 section.   

The TIPS/NOTES/WARNINGS are, for the most part, instructive, such as: "Black will often arrange to meet f4 by doubling on the c8-h3 diagonal, thereby driving the h3-knight backwards.  That can be a reasonable plan, but White will hope that the g4-bishop is vulnerable to ideas of h3 and f5."  Much more helpful to the audience of this book than "A Knight on the Rim is Dim."

The variations in these Starting Out books are getting to be pretty dense.  I don't remember Gallagher's KID book being quite this, well, messy.

I believe the section on early Black deviations is a little lean, but there's only so many pages to go around, I guess.

The Index of Variations contains diagrams of the tabiyas, I guess you would call it.  Kind of interesting, but I don't know how helpful that will be.  I guess I'd rather have it than not have it.

I'm looking forward to spending some time with it.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #22 - 05/19/06 at 16:08:23
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Quote:
9. ...f5 is positional blunder


Well it does look rather loosening but on the other hand Black has a lot of activity.  It would be quite a bit more helpful if you could be more specific as to why 9...f5 is a positional blunder since it was made by a player rated 2485.  Oh yeah, and he used it to beat a 2374 player.
  
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #21 - 05/18/06 at 09:44:20
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9. ...f5 is positional blunder
  
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MNb
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #20 - 05/18/06 at 02:36:58
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1147120100/15#18 date=1147519392]
White cannot play f4 until Black has closed the centre.
[/quote]

Scarella,E (2374) - Rodriguez,A (2485) [A42]
Mercosur Cup-6 Vicente Lopez (9), 01.08.2003
1.d4 d6 2.e4 g6 3.c4 Bg7 4.Nc3 Nd7 5.Nf3 e5 6.Be2 Ne7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Re1 h6 9.Bf1 f5 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.exf5 gxf5 12.c5 Ng6 13.b4 e4 14.Nd2 Nde5 15.Qb3+ Kh7 16.Rd1 Qh4 17.g3 Qh5 18.Be2 Nf3+ 19.Nxf3 exf3 20.Bf1 f4 21.Rd5 Qg4 22.Qc2 fxg3 23.hxg3 Bf5 24.Qd2 Be6 25.Bb2 Nf4 26.Re1 Rae8 27.Rxe6 Rxe6 28.Rd7 Rg6 29.Rxc7 Nh3+ 30.Kh2 Nf4 31.Qd7 Qh5+ 32.Bh3 Rf7 0-1

With colours reversed this will be
1.e4 c5 2.d3 Nc6 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 d5 5.Nd2 e5 6.Ne2 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.h3 Re8 9.f4 dxe4 10.dxe4 exf4 11.gxf4 Bf8 12.Ng3 with interesting play. Of course, if one is familiar with the Classical KID old fashioned 6...Nd7 variation, then 6.Nf3 is to be consered as well. The waiting move 6.c3 hardly has been tried, probably because of Be7 7.Ngf3 dxe4 8.dxe4 Qd3!
We must not be overoptimistic; in practice White has scored about 50%, with a quite low drawing rate. Still this stuff looks more interesting to me than 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5. It will be a matter of taste in the end.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Willempie
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #19 - 05/13/06 at 19:10:14
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MNb wrote on 05/12/06 at 20:56:26:
"the KIA vs the French is weaker than the closed vs the Sicilian."
As 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5 is equal (see above), then 1.e4 e6 2.d3 is =+!?

"The KIA is stronger for White than the King's Indian Reversed and Sicilian-KID Conflict"
But is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5 stronger for White than 1.e4 c5 2.d3 Nc6 3.g3 d5 4.Nd2 Nf6 5.Bg2 e5  and why? Moreover, in the latter, is 6.Ngf3 best? The Averbach Variation of the Modern 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.c4 Bg7 knows some lines for Black without Nf6 and they are not that bad. I was especially thinking of 6.Ne2 in the KIR, keeping the option f2-f4 open. I have never investigated this in detail, but it might be interestig to find out, if White can play a kind of KID with a couple of tempi extra.

Just a couple of very biased questions.

Good questions and I dont think we'll come to a consensus, but I'll add some food for thought anyway.
-Firstly after 2 d3 you are committed to specific closed setups. Your "scare" line against the closed (which is indeed the reason I gave up the closed) isnt necessarily a problem as long as you are flexible as white. Eg many white players use 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 Nc3 to avoid some annoying sidelines in the open sicilian (there's not really a viable way to avoid this as black). So after 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 e6 it may be a very good idea to transpose to the open sicilian, which is btw a move order I often use. Also if you insist on playing closed, Nf3 isnt really a problem in e6 lines. Eg check Timman-Polu Amsterdam 1981. 
-The closed sicilian with Nge2 is imo underestimated. Ok it is not really a major threat to the survival of the sicilian, but if you're a positionally inclined player it is an excellent weapon. Eg Karpov used it to good effect in his early days.
-I have quite some experience with the KIA from the french (I play it with a quick c5 as black). The problem to me seems to be that white has difficulty finding good plans later on while black basically plays on autopilot. In the 2 club competition matches I got this as black I had about an hour more left than my opponent and never was in any danger.
-My opinion btw isnt based on the objective evaluation of the lines (which are almost all equal in any case) but on the "ease" of play. In the closed you have a bigger variety of options usually.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Uberdecker
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #18 - 05/13/06 at 11:23:12
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Dear MNb,

This is indeed rather under-explored and interesting stuff. First of all, I'd like to say that although the KIA may ultimately not suffice for a theoretical advantage, it's certainly one of the best tries among the deviations on the main lines of the French and 2. ...e6 Sicilian.
The 2. ...e6/3. ...d5 Closed Sicilian is quite different in nature from the KIR and comparisons can only go so far, but it should be noted that in the Closed, White plays ed and then either gets in d4 with play against the IQP or forces Black to (over)-extend with ...d4. But perhaps White does better to defer the capture for a move with 4. Bg2 Ktf6 (4. ...d4 Ktce2) ; 5. ed ed ; 6. Ktge2 d4 ; 7. Kte4
In this respect, White is better off than when it is he who was angling for this type of position e.g. 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktc3 Ktc6 ; 3. g3 e6 ; 4. Kte2 d5 (forced unless Black wants a Taimanov/Paulsen, but also a good move) ; 5. ed ed ; 6. Bg2 (6. d4? Bg4) d4 ; 7. Ktd5

Your idea of 6. Kte2 is possible of course, but Black will naturally not play ...d4 unless he's given a very good reason (note that White is committed to Ktd2 and does not have much pressure on -d5).
White cannot play f4 until Black has closed the centre.

                                                                              Regards,
                                                                                 Hubert
« Last Edit: 05/13/06 at 12:54:29 by Uberdecker »  
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MNb
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #17 - 05/12/06 at 20:56:26
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"the KIA vs the French is weaker than the closed vs the Sicilian."
As 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5 is equal (see above), then 1.e4 e6 2.d3 is =+!?

"The KIA is stronger for White than the King's Indian Reversed and Sicilian-KID Conflict"
But is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5 stronger for White than 1.e4 c5 2.d3 Nc6 3.g3 d5 4.Nd2 Nf6 5.Bg2 e5  and why? Moreover, in the latter, is 6.Ngf3 best? The Averbach Variation of the Modern 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.c4 Bg7 knows some lines for Black without Nf6 and they are not that bad. I was especially thinking of 6.Ne2 in the KIR, keeping the option f2-f4 open. I have never investigated this in detail, but it might be interestig to find out, if White can play a kind of KID with a couple of tempi extra.

Just a couple of very biased questions.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #16 - 05/12/06 at 18:07:03
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My equally (if not more so) unbiased opinion is that the KIA is stronger for White than the King's Indian Reversed and Sicilian-KID Conflict.
  
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #15 - 05/12/06 at 13:50:53
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I would just like to add my completely unbiased opinion ( Huh) that the KIA vs the French is weaker than the closed vs the Sicilian. In the KIA you have less pressure on d5. Also as white you have more flexibility in the closed.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #14 - 05/12/06 at 12:33:52
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The King's Indian Attack against the Sicilian is reached through the move-order 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 e6 ; 3. d3. There is no reason why Black should go for ...e6 against 2. d3
1. e4 c5 ; 2. d3 Ktc6 ; 3. g3 d5 ; 4. Ktd2 Ktf6 ; 5. Bg2 e5 ; 6. Ktf3 Be7 is a King's Indian Reversed where Black should be holding his own.
The more modest option 3. ...g6 given by MNb is called the "Sicilian-King's Indian Conflict" by Bronstein, but it could also very well be referred to as an "English Opening Reversed" or  "Sicilian Reversed-Reversed"...
  
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #13 - 05/12/06 at 12:22:35
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MNb wrote on 05/12/06 at 02:07:44:
Then what do you guys think of my earlier suggestion 2.d3 ? To refresh your memory: the idea is to answer an early d7-d5 with Nb1-d2, transposing to the King's Indian Attack. After 1.e4 c5 2.d3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.f4 White will only transpose to the Closed Sicilian, when it suits him.


This is an interesting approach.  If I understand, then the question is who must tip his hand first, White by moving his QN or Black by moving one of his center pawns.

In my (limited) experience, Black players who intend to play ...d5 do so very early, usually on move 3.  Most do not combine ...g6 with ...e6 + ...d5.  So maybe White is in a better position to sit back and see how things develop (as he usually is in these cat and mouse openings).
  
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #12 - 05/12/06 at 07:58:23
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Mnb I think your proposal is great. Because of Taylors book on the Bird I started looking in Big Clamp lines. 2 d3 in the Sicilian is the other way to reach the Big Clamp. Currently I am looking what move orders are optimal.

I found the following sources on the Big Clamp: Foxy DVD, Strangling the Sicilian with 2 d3!, from Davies; King: Closed Sicilian; and a small (old) booklet from Day. Does anyone know more sources with Big Clamp theorie?

Davies gives some interesting lines against an early d5, to meet the unprepared Black player.
  
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