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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00: The Fascinating Réti Gambit (Read 70102 times)
TopNotch
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #54 - 12/12/06 at 16:13:52
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I think SI = Sicilian but this is just a guess.

Toppy Smiley
  

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IMJohnCox
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #53 - 12/12/06 at 15:06:37
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Fair points, TJ. I shall consider it a matter of honour to meet 1 e4 with 1…e6 should we ever play. After all I suppose 1…e5 would be even more foolish, no?

I nearly played the Politiken Cup this year, actually. I enjoyed it in 1982 or so when I played. If it wasn’t for the fact that the website is astonishingly poorly run and information about accommodation, travel and so forth accordingly hard to get hold of I might well have played in it.

I suppose the Bb2 with Pe5 does discourage ….f6. In fact I recall that long ago when I was young and foolish someone did play 2 b3 against me. I, assuming they had no idea what they were doing, did indeed play 3…dxe4 and experienced difficulties.

What do you mean by the SI, by the way?

Your Tartakower comparison is a bit unfair as there the diagonal stands to be opened by …dxc4, and if White chooses to freeze the structure he has to pay the price of playing Bxf6 to achieve it. But I concede this doesn’t apply to the C-Z. Even there the bishop will come alive if either c4 or e4 is ever played, but I suppose you will say that it is the same with e5 here; the bishop has latent power if the opponent makes his most natural pawn break.

I love your books by the way. Keep up the good work.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #52 - 12/12/06 at 14:54:20
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IMJohnCox wrote on 12/12/06 at 13:21:41:
If I were still playing the French (which I certainly would be if all Whites played 2 b3, although that's probably just my prejudices) then 3...Nf6 would be the first move I'd think of. 


I might try to hold you to that, should we ever face each other in a tournament!  Wink - Any chance you might be playing Politiken/Nordic Ch next year?


Quote:
To my eye the combination of Bb2 and e5 looks rather absurd. That's not to say I'm right - just a matter of impression. But I would think you'll see this OTB a lot more than 3...dxe4.



OK, in a way I see your point, but the word 'absurd' sounds strange in this context. Why would this be more absurd than e.g. the Main line Leningrad with Bg2 and d5, or the Colle-Zukertort / Tartakower QG with Bb2 & d4 & Bb7 & d5 where the bishop has an even shorter diagonal??


Quote:
Most people - most grizzled old people like me, anyway - try to avoid giving the opponent what he wants when faced with these pet-line type deviations, and rightly or wrongly I would assume that was 3....dxe4, so I'd play something else.


Sure, that same reasoning is for example what makes people play 2.Nc3 or 2.c3 vs the SI, or the Colle vs 1...d5 etc etc - but is this a reason to stop playing the SI or QG as black? One can't always get what one wants... 

And even if you get what you want variationwise, there's seldom a guaranteed win. But personally I don't know any other option against the French that has so much tactical potential, not to mention surprise effect, - especially when compared to what you 'need to know' to get there!

As an example, here's a game from a young FRG reader - and perhaps a lazy reader at that, as 5.f3 is dealt with in chapter one and my recomendation for white is 5.d3! of chapter two... 

Still, it's rare to see this kind of game vs the solid French, where usually even a clearly lower rated would at least make it to move 25...

[WhiteElo "1855"]
[BlackElo "1681"]
[TimeControl "3600+15"]
[Mode "ICS"]
[Result "1-0"]
1. e4 e6 2. b3 d5 3. Bb2 dxe4 4. Nc3 f5 5. f3 exf3 6. Nxf3 Nf6 7. Bc4 Nc6 8. Qe2 Qe7 9. d4 h6 10. O-O-O g5 11. d5 Nd8 12. Rhe1 Bg7 13. dxe6 O-O 14. Rd7 Qe8 15. e7+ Kh7 16. Rxd8 1-0
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #51 - 12/12/06 at 13:21:41
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If I were still playing the French (which I certainly would be if all Whites played 2 b3, although that's probably just my prejudices) then 3...Nf6 would be the first move I'd think of. To my eye the combination of Bb2 and e5 looks rather absurd. That's not to say I'm right - just a matter of impression. But I would think you'll see this OTB a lot more than 3...dxe4. Most people - most grizzled old people like me, anyway - try to avoid giving the opponent what he wants when faced with these pet-line type deviations, and rightly or wrongly I would assume that was 3....dxe4, so I'd play something else.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #50 - 12/12/06 at 11:42:48
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knightmare wrote on 12/11/06 at 22:45:50:


Though I have to add that I would like to play ...h5 some moves later:

1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Qg4 c5 6.f4 Nc6 7.Nf3 (queen self-trapped?) and now 7...h5 
After 8.Qg3 there is a slight difference to the proposed lines: If a black knight reaches ...e4 the Q on g3 really looks silly. So
8...a6 After 9.a4 I would simply recommend ...c4 with the idea of Nd7-c5-e4. I think that the whole white Setup looks really strange now. 10.bxc4 Nc5 11.Qf2 (what else?) 11...Ne4 12.Qe3 Bc5  Call for repair shop?


Hmm, is this analyis +20 ply deep?? - as I don't see why 13.d4 wouldn't be good, and fritzie seems to agree, at the moment at least. E.g: 13.d4 Qb6 14.Bc3 Be7 15.Be2 Nb4 16.Bxb4 Bxb4+ (Qxb4+ 17.Nbd2 Qb2?! 18.0-0!) 17.c3 Be7 18.Qc1 +/- Anyway, the line is hardly forced for either side, white can for example prefer 8.Qh3 or 9.Be2 and there are probably many other moves/ideas. 

To me it looks quite strange that black, lagging in development, should prefer to go on a one horse mission to threaten Qg3, and in the process spend time on yet another pawn move (a6) and even give a pawn (c5-c4) for that sole purpose...

Actually, people seem to come up with their own reasons against the Réti Gambit, especially reasons which I never considered very dangerous during writing and still don't - like that a6+b5 plan mentioned by Fighting Dragon above (and by others as well). 

I expected black to focus on 3..dxe4 which imo must be critical even if it gives white white the play he wants (similar to a KG 2..exf4), definitely not this focus on 3...Nf6  Shocked  - Personally, I wouldn't mind starting all my white games with 5.Qg4. Not because white has a big advantage, but because black has so little play of his own.

Anyway, I guess that either I'm too optimistic or the players who see 3...Nf6 as a turn off, simply don't like to play closed positions...  Undecided
  
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knightmare
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #49 - 12/11/06 at 22:45:50
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TalJechin wrote on 10/03/06 at 15:12:56:

Actually, the only fault he finds worth pointing out is that after 3...Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Qg4 I don't mention  5...h5 6.Qg3 g5 which is an omission I can live with, as it has never been played and does look a bit risky for black imo...


For me 5....h5 6.Qg3 looks quite nice for black. But ...g5 IMHO is - at least - strange.

Though I have to add that I would like to play ...h5 some moves later:

1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Qg4 c5 6.f4 Nc6 7.Nf3 (queen self-trapped?) and now 7...h5 
After 8.Qg3 there is a slight difference to the proposed lines: If a black knight reaches ...e4 the Q on g3 really looks silly. So
8...a6 After 9.a4 I would simply recommend ...c4 with the idea of Nd7-c5-e4. I think that the whole white Setup looks really strange now. 10.bxc4 Nc5 11.Qf2 (what else?) 11...Ne4 12.Qe3 Bc5  Call for repair shop?


  

ELO 2060. Corr.: 2190. Which casts doubts if I ever knew what I was doing. At least on the Board.
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #48 - 11/06/06 at 01:11:34
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Sorry for not answering so long, but I was quite busy recently!

In reply to your suggestion 1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Qg4 c5 6.f4 Nc6 7.Nf3 a6 8.Be2 Rb8! 9.a4 b5 10.ab5: ab5: 11.Nc3 I was afraid my oponent would play 11. ... c4! which I think is a strong move that somehow paralyses white's Nc3 and Be2.
Next black could play prophylactically on the kingside with g6 and perhaps h5.
What I don't like about white's position is that there is few space for the pieces and after c4 black has got some more space on the queenside.
So perhaps black may be already a bit better.
  
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #47 - 10/21/06 at 08:21:48
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Quote:
The second game against a player with about 2070 went 1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 Nf6 4.e5 Nd7 5.Qg4 c5 6.f4 Nc6 7.Nf3 a6 8.Be2 Rb8! this move is a novelty and is not given in TJ's book.
In comparison to 8. ... b5 9.a4 in the game white can't block the black pawns on the queenside and so has less space for his pieces.
9.0-0 b5 10.Nc3 Nb6 11.Kh1 g6 12.Nd1 Ne7 13.Qh3 h5 14.d4 c4 15.Ba3 a5 16.Bd6 Rb7
although white has gotten his "bad" bishop outside the pawn chain, I don't think he has a real advantage.
White's pieces are really clumsy, he has the worse pawn structure on the queenside and it is nearly impossible to play the key move f4-f5! 

...

So until now, I didn't have a really pleasant game typical of 2.b3, what I also think is that most stronger players tend to play the variation with 3. ... Nf6 because it promises a "french" position.


If black wants something typically french I think 3...c5 is the best bet. 3...Nf6 5.Qg4 is in my opinion not very french, as black is lacking the most important french quality, i.e active counter play! Smiley

Anyway, I don't share your dejection over 8...Rb8. For one thing, if black grabs space on the q-side white can also try the d3-setup >c4 / Nbd2. 

But in the game I don't see what's wrong with 9.a4 - white is ahead in development so he should welcome a more concrete position, e.g: 9...b5 10.axb5 axb5 11.Nc3 Nb4 (11...b4 12.Nb5!) 12.0-0!? At least to me this looks quite promising for white... 
(Fritz seems to prefer the quiet 12.Rc1 which may also be good as white has a space advantage and better development, but I like the more direct 12.0-0 as black should hardly be able to play with just his pawns and knights...)


Quote:
I won the game later after my opponent got into serious time trouble because he took so much time on the first 20 moves.


In my experience this is typical - and a good reason for 2.b3, as usually frenchies trot out their first 20 moves in twenty minutes, and most of that time is spent on chatting or getting coffee!
  
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #46 - 10/20/06 at 13:21:12
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I want to report the experiences I've made to this day with the Reti gambit:

My first game was against a player rated about 2430.
The opening went 1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 Nf6 4.e5 Ng8 I think the strongest move now is 5.d4 what I played. I don't really trust the other setups given in TJ's book. By the way, I think there is a slight mistake in the book: on page 157 TJ writes that the game could transpose back to an advance proper if white plays a3 and b4.
If you cont the moves, white got b3 and Bb2 for free, so a3 and b4 takes 2 moves.
But normally, a3. b4 and Bb2 takes 3 moves, so white is still a tempo up.
The game continued: 5. ... c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Nf3 Nge7 8.Bd3 cd4: 9.cd4: Nf5 10.0-0 a5?! 11.Bf5:! ef5: 12.a4 when I was slightly better and managed to reach a won endgame with good knight against bad bishop, which I lost due to a blunder in time trouble.

The second game against a player with about 2070 went 1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 Nf6 4.e5 Nd7 5.Qg4 c5 6.f4 Nc6 7.Nf3 a6 8.Be2 Rb8! this move is a novelty and is not given in TJ's book.
In comparison to 8. ... b5 9.a4 in the game white can't block the black pawns on the queenside and so has less space for his pieces.
9.0-0 b5 10.Nc3 Nb6 11.Kh1 g6 12.Nd1 Ne7 13.Qh3 h5 14.d4 c4 15.Ba3 a5 16.Bd6 Rb7
although white has gotten his "bad" bishop outside the pawn chain, I don't think he has a real advantage.
White's pieces are really clumsy, he has the worse pawn structure on the queenside and it is nearly impossible to play the key move f4-f5!
So I don't see a way for white to play for the advantage in this system with 3. ... Nf6
I won the game later after my opponent got into serious time trouble because he took so much time on the first 20 moves.

The third game my opponent was about the same strength and the opening went:
1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 de4: (at last!) 4.Nc3 f5 5.d3 Nf6! 6.de4: Qd1:+ 7.Rd1: fe4: and now I played 8.Bc4?! instead of TJ's 8.a3! and soon got a slightly worse position.

So until now, I didn't have a really pleasant game typical of 2.b3, what I also think is that most stronger players tend to play the variation with 3. ... Nf6 because it promises a "french" position.  Undecided

Any opinions?
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #45 - 10/03/06 at 15:12:56
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Just thought I'd mention that the FRG is reviewed in the latest issue of Kaissiber (#25). Bücker is even rather positive, e.g he ends with: 

Quote:
Johanssons Neuling ist jedenfalls ebenso variantreich wie seine bisherigen Bücher. Für Gambit-freunde sehr zu empfehlen.


Actually, the only fault he finds worth pointing out is that after 3...Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Qg4 I don't mention  5...h5 6.Qg3 g5 which is an omission I can live with, as it has never been played and does look a bit risky for black imo...

Btw, those who have never heard about Kaissiber should check it out - at least if you have some understanding of the  german language and are interested in chess history and/or non-mainline theory! For example, #25 contains a 25 page article by Gutman on the Italian with 4.0-0 d6 5.c3.
  
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #44 - 09/08/06 at 09:58:18
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Thanks for the review Lou. Glad you seem to find it more inspiring than annoying!  Smiley

Quote:
One thing to improve on refers to the layout. TJ likes to use variations and sub-variations, and so do I, but sometimes his indexing is confusing in itself. For example in sec. 4 the indexing starts with the pattern A / a / a1. At variation D he starts subvariations with the pattern D / A(?) / a / a (?). Under subsection B of the same variation the indexing switches again to something like D / B / I / a /, but afterwards to D / B / II / i / a. I noticed similar things in some of the bigger sections. This is confusing, because one has to cross-check the move number to know where you are on the variation tree. This could be avoided by sticking to just one indexing system or by getting in somebody to edit the script.


You point out a slight problem here, but unfortunately the only way for me to avoid doing this would be to go over to Illustrative Games instead. As you may know, Chessbase has an annoying way of exporting cbh to .doc by giving it as a concentrated word clump without any breaks. And removing its own mark-up system while adding a) b) c) before every minor line...  Angry

So basically, I'm happy if I manage to unwind the variations without missing moves! Another problem is that when I give long lines with plenty of alternatives, I tend to run out of numbers or letters to mark the lines. This was a problem in the FKG, so the FRG is not perfectly laid out - but at least I hope it's a 'fall forward'!  Wink
  
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Lou_Cyber
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #43 - 09/08/06 at 06:37:00
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Hi folks,
played the opening and read the book. Here are my first impressions. Basically black has four ways to react after 1.e4 e6 2.b3:

1. RG accepted  1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 dxe 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.g4/Qe2
White get´s an open and completely un-french structure, better development, initiative and good chances for a kingside attack for a pawn and a less safe king-position. For me this sounds like a familiar and favourable deal, but I play the Kings gambit. Players who prefer quiet positional play will disagree.

2. RG declined  1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 Nf6
According to Psakhis white can continue with 4.exd exd 5.Qe2+ Be6 (Be7 6.Bxf6) 6.Nf3 Be7 7.Ng5 and go for the bishops on cost of development and initiative after an exchange. TJ recommends a set-up with e5, f4 and Qg4.

3. The counter-fianchetto  1.e4 e6 2.b3 b6
This can transpose to open sicilian structures (and theory!) after 3.Nf3 c5 4.d4 cxd 5.Nxd4. Alternatively white can follow TJs recommendations and play 3.Bb2 or 3.d4 with good chances.

4. Sicilian transpositions 1.e4 e6 2.b3 c5 or 1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 c5
Whites b3 is not a forcing move, therefore black has a wide choice of possible set-ups. TJ introduces independent lines and ideas, mostly with an early Bb2, usually holding back d4 for a while. As he points out, this part of the book is a starting point for ones own explorations on approx. 70 pages including misc. other black tries.

After studying the book I am happy to play the RG (lines I and II) if given the chance. The result of blitz games is encouraging. TJ covers all reasonable black answers in detail and explains a lot of typical ideas in comprehensive language on 153 of 226 pages. I usually get very interesting and tense positions. Both players have a big choice of reasonable moves, but play is very dynamic, so the first error might be already decisive.

This leaves the lines III and IV with b6 and/or c5. According to TJ this is played in about 25 % of the games. As b3 is not a forcing move black as a vast number of possible set-ups. This might explain, why b3 has been unpopular so far. It´s not because c5 is the best answer to the RG, but with an anti-line white usually wants to avoid a large body of theory. In answer to this problem TJ mainly investigates unusual set-ups which follow neither french nor sicilian patterns.

Yet I first noticed the RG while looking for a good antidote against the Paulsen, Taimanov and other lines after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6. 3.b3 is considered as an important and dangerous sideline for white. I refer to the thread in the anti-sicilian section on 1.e4 c5 2.b3. Chances are at least as good as in the lines given by TJ. The main difference seems to be that in sicilian structures white usually plays d4, and sometimes directly Ba3 to swap of the blackfielders.

I can´t blame TJ for leaving this out as the book is called “anti-french”. TJ doesn´t make a secret on the omission of Nf3, but refers to existing works on the sicilian. Perhaps another reason is that TJ generally seems to avoid the open sicilian with white.

One thing to improve on refers to the layout. TJ likes to use variations and sub-variations, and so do I, but sometimes his indexing is confusing in itself. For example in sec. 4 the indexing starts with the pattern A / a / a1. At variation D he starts subvariations with the pattern D / A(?) / a / a (?). Under subsection B of the same variation the indexing switches again to something like D / B / I / a /, but afterwards to D / B / II / i / a. I noticed similar things in some of the bigger sections. This is confusing, because one has to cross-check the move number to know where you are on the variation tree. This could be avoided by sticking to just one indexing system or by getting in somebody to edit the script.

Still I like and recommend the book very much and appreciate the tremendous work of the author on this completely new subject.
  

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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #42 - 08/12/06 at 19:53:03
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Howdy,

@Lou it will be interesting to see your opinion, when you've read it!  Smiley


BlkSabb wrote on 08/12/06 at 08:02:15:
I was just looking at the The Fascinating King's Gambit on Amazon and I noticed that there's a digital version at a very nice price.  Are there any plans to do a digital edition of The Fascinating Réti Gambit?  Both books after shipping for me would be pretty expensive, but if there was a digital edition I think I might get them both!


Actually, I thought I had stopped Trafford's plans of making the FKG into an ebook and the same goes for Amazon's digital edition. As I'm not very keen on it ending up on the filesharing networks. As a self publisher it's rather annoying when you constantly have to fight Trafford's every new idiotic marketing stunt, and by now I dont have much good to say about Amazon either.   Sad

Hmm, maybe I could sue Amazon for copyright violation?  Smiley At least if they do publish a digital version I've opposed several times by now.  Though it's probably only the mighty film and music industries that win such cases...   Undecided
  
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #41 - 08/12/06 at 08:02:15
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I was just looking at the The Fascinating King's Gambit on Amazon and I noticed that there's a digital version at a very nice price.  Are there any plans to do a digital edition of The Fascinating Réti Gambit?  Both books after shipping for me would be pretty expensive, but if there was a digital edition I think I might get them both!
  
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Re: The Fascinating Réti Gambit
Reply #40 - 08/11/06 at 21:28:49
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Hi,
my copy of TFRG arrived yesterday in germany.
I ordered it with cheapest shipping and it arrived within a week, no problem there.
Quality of binding and paper of paperback is at least standard.

Now I´m going to read the book before making more substantial comments. Cool
  

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