Poll
Poll closed Question: Prediction?
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Topalov wins    
  23 (29.1%)
Kramnik wins    
  37 (46.8%)
Draw    
  2 (2.5%)
Match gets cancelled    
  17 (21.5%)
other?...    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 79
« Created by: OstapBender on: 05/25/06 at 17:35:43 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Kramnik-Topalov match (Read 88954 times)
Paul123
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #169 - 09/27/06 at 12:07:09
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Castlerock… … For some reason I had forgotten about that last game.   Probably do  duh...! (I mean due.... to the point made by Taljechin.  

Imo when playing for a draw it seems to backfire a lot. (at least for me) We all have seen that tactic implode on the world stage.  I think the biggest of all time was Kasparov vs.  Karpov,   where all Karpov had to do was draw the final game to retain the title.  This is imo Topalov’s only chance to get into the match. i.e. Kramnik starts playing for draws and starts dropping a game here and there…  
« Last Edit: 09/27/06 at 20:57:22 by Paul123 »  
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Keano
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #168 - 09/27/06 at 11:41:33
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Well call me old fashioned, but as White I prefer to keep that pawn in front of my king! This surely cannot be Toppy prep can it? If so I just dont get it, no more comments from me now until well into the game....
  
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Keano
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #167 - 09/27/06 at 11:28:08
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15.Bf3!? allowing Kramnik to take a pawn on h2 with check! I like it  Wink

...But what about 15...Bxh2+ 16.Kh1 h5!? surely Kramnik will invest a bit of time looking at this....

...or else someone will tell me this is all theory  Huh
  
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Keano
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #166 - 09/27/06 at 11:21:49
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Early days game 4 - I know little of the theory but Toppy looks to have chosen a sensible line against the Semi-Slav. I´d take the position after 14.Nd2 for White any day, looks possible to squeeze nicely - is Toppy trying to do an imitation of Kramnik?

Seriously though, anyone else find it feels unpleasant for Black?
  
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Keano
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #165 - 09/27/06 at 09:49:18
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The interviews were very revealing alright - Topalov seems to be in optimistic mood, as I suppose he has to be. For me he has every reason to be! The momentum is with him, he just needs to start registering the points.
TopNotch & Castlerock - before the match started I would have agreed with your analysis that 2-0 at this point was curtains, but lets be realistic here - the reality is that the score could be very different and the play has been volatile to say the least - Topalov has already achieved one completely winning position so he has every reason to be optimistic - I cant see Kramnik closing this one out with the deadly sequence of draws he got against an out of sorts Kasparov. No, the big danger for Toppy now is a Kramnik win, which would in effect be curtains for him. He is on the edge at the moment, no question, but if he can register the next win then it is very much game on and I see no reason why not!
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #164 - 09/27/06 at 09:20:58
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Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #163 - 09/27/06 at 09:08:10
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In addition to Marin's exellent analysis at chessbase,
Peter Svidler also does a good job at chesspro.ru.
I liked his comment that the second game was "a very HUMAN Masterpiece"...
Chess played by humans is more than just raw variations (as for computers)...
  
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castlerock
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #162 - 09/27/06 at 08:53:43
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Well said, TopNotch. That’s what I meant in my previous post, far less eloquently. Kramnik’s play deserves more credit than what he is given  (14th World champion in the year 2007 deserves it. Forgive me, Keano!! Wink) and Topalov doesn’t deserve the admonition.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #161 - 09/27/06 at 07:26:49
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Dennis Monokroussos gives some good analysis to the games on his blog. Clearly he uses a powerful chess engine to assist in his search for the absolute truth, my only gripe is that he criticises the decisions of the players too harshly, biased no doubt by the conclusions of his silicon helper, and as such his analysis lacks a certain human perspective and judgement. For these reasons I much prefer GM Mihail Marin's commentary of game three on Chessbase.com. 

Regarding this infamous mate in three that Topalov missed in game two, it transpires that many GM's and IM's kibitzing on ICC and Playchess also missed it. For some reason the key move Qc7 seemed counter intuitive for the human mind, probably because there was an alternative which visually placed the attacking forces even closer to the opposing King. Intuitively Topa's choice felt and looked correct, but rather than confirm his intuition he played impulsively.

To get a more realistic feel for how difficult chess really is, try annotating a game without a strong engine by your side and see how it affects your decision making. Also check the analysis of games in Informator before the Fritz and Shredder days and you will see what I mean.   

In an interview on Chessbase, the players themselves give an account of what transpired thus far in the match, and I dare say its quite revealing stuff and a must read for 'real' chessplayers. Give both players a break, remember to err is human.

Topster Smiley      
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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TalJechin
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #160 - 09/27/06 at 07:22:27
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castlerock wrote on 09/27/06 at 05:01:45:


@Paul123

Is it not the other way around? Leko wanted to hold on to a draw in the last game of the match and Kramnik produced brilliant chess to win when it mattered.


In that match both players played hard for the draw when they were in the lead...
  
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castlerock
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #159 - 09/27/06 at 05:01:45
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/27/06 at 03:01:41:

(Unfortunately, this age is already dying out as more and more patzers pretend to think while their computers do all the work.)


Very True. That blunder required Qc7 follow up. It comes by instantly if you have a silicon monster! According to this report, not just Topalov & Kramnik, quite a few GM’s (who didn’t have computer at the precise moment?) missed it too. 

http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3366

@Paul123

Is it not the other way around? Leko wanted to hold on to a draw in the last game of the match and Kramnik produced brilliant chess to win when it mattered.



  

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TopNotch
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #158 - 09/27/06 at 04:29:10
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History has shown that World Championship matches are always tense nervy affairs, and the use of chess engines while kibitzing this match gives a warped sense of the play. Try kibitzing without an engine running in the background and you get a better feel for what's going on between these two players.

To my mind both players are getting unfairly vilified for missing wins and strong continuations invariably found and verified by chess programs. Listening to commentary of game three on ICC, Kramnik was criticised for capturing with cxd5 instead of exd5 which by all accounts gave a big advantage, however the complications after e4 in response to exd5 were difficult to assess when low on time and with a two game cushion why would one take the risk. 

I don't think that game three was indicative of poor form on Kramnik's part, but rather a calm and practical decision under the circumstances.

When in doubt, bail out.....seems to be Kramnik's mantra and had Topalov done the same in game 1 he wouldn't be forced to go for broke now in every game. 

Those that think Topalov has any realistic chances of bouncing back now are dreaming. Much more likely is that Topalov will gain some much needed match experience from this encounter and employ the lessons learned in a return match sometime in the future.

To Topa's credit, this is a much more interesting and thrilling match than Kramnik-Leko ever was. Win lose or draw, Topa is an exciting player to watch, reminiscent of when Kasparov dominated the boards not so long ago, lets hope that the rest of the match continues to be as entertaining.

Toppy Smiley      
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Paul123
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #157 - 09/27/06 at 03:53:27
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The optimistic side of me loves Topalov’s dynamic play.  The guy can really mix it up and plays some of the best fighting chess I’ve seen in years.  That said, the practical side say’s Kramnik is the stronger chess player.

When Kramnik get the positional side of his play rolling on all cylinders I don’t think he can be beat. That element is imo what has been missing from his games in the last couple of years. It appears he has found it again …bad for Topalov  Yea, Topalov had some winning chances, but he didn't follow through for the win...heck he lost...Kramnik weathering the storm technique shouldn't be down played

  With it being a  12 game match…. I’d expect Kramnik will start playing drawish lines….yet we all have seen this tactic backfire even at local tournaments…. and if I'm not mistaken didn't he try to do that with Leko and got in trouble?



   
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #156 - 09/27/06 at 03:08:46
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Keano~

You were right about David Beckham (with previously noted reservations), but your man Topalov still needs to find mates in 3.  Ok, he missed the mate in 3 after some of the most brilliant chess we've ever seen, but still...

As long as Kramnik has a better line in the Slav than he showed in game 2, then my money's on the front-runner!  Toppy will not only have to win as White, but also dent Kramnik's nearly invincible play when Toppy's Black.

  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #155 - 09/27/06 at 03:01:41
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MarinFan, 

Thanks for the wesbiste and the information.  I like the notes to the game because the writer recognises how hard it is to play a great game of chess as opposed to kibbitzing with the aid of a computer.

I was a bit surprised that Kramnik didn't push harder with White today (9/26).  I agree that we are already at one of the critical points in the match.  If Kramnik wins, regardless of Topalov's play, the match is virtually over.  If it's a draw, then how the opponents played will probably determine the momentum for the next few games.  If Topalov wins, it's anybody's match again.   

I love being a spectator to some of the best chess ever played!  As I said during Kasparov's reign, we are living in the Golden Age of Chess.   

(Unfortunately, this age is already dying out as more and more patzers pretend to think while their computers do all the work.)
  
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