Poll
Poll closed Question: Prediction?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Topalov wins    
  23 (29.1%)
Kramnik wins    
  37 (46.8%)
Draw    
  2 (2.5%)
Match gets cancelled    
  17 (21.5%)
other?...    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 79
« Created by: OstapBender on: 05/25/06 at 17:35:43 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Kramnik-Topalov match (Read 88869 times)
Klick
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #229 - 09/30/06 at 14:31:05
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Yes, I've read it Markovich. It's interesting reading, but I think it misses a crucial point: It stresses that Topalov is protesting the conduct or behavior of Kramnik. Then I ask, what is wrong with Kramnik's behaviour? Nothing at all. He likes to walk. It's all in in the mind of the Topalov team.

I think Topalov's actions are very questionable and the decisions of the Appeal Committee very very fishy.

I hope you've all read Nunn's letter.

I'd like to stress the following: Quote:
Notice that not only has Kramnik not been proved to have done anything wrong, there isn’t even a single piece of evidence that he has done anything wrong. All he has done, apparently, is to wander in and out of his bathroom – a bathroom which, one must remember, was open to inspection at any time before the game.
  

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castlerock
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #228 - 09/30/06 at 14:23:09
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Excellent miss not article by Nunn in chessbase

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3382
  

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Markovich
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #227 - 09/30/06 at 14:16:02
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Klick wrote on 09/29/06 at 23:33:45:
The same applies for written contracts. Breach of contract and agreed terms is anarchy.


True enough, but see this very persuasive argument:

http://chessforblood.blogspot.com/2006/09/topalov-has-better-of-it_29.html
  

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Klick
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #226 - 09/30/06 at 14:10:41
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John Nunn's letter:

Quote:
The Kramnik – Topalov dispute

In many disputes between top chess players, there is no clear right and wrong – forming a clear opinion from the letters of protest, contradictions and mutual accusations is virtually impossible. However, the Kramnik-Topalov case is an exception.

We have to start with the background. Topalov and his team have worked closely with FIDE for some time. Topalov is the FIDE champion and he supported Ilyumzhinov’s re-election campaign. Kramnik, by contrast, is much more an outsider. His world championship title derived from Brain Games and then the PCA, so he has had much less contact with FIDE.

The current match is FIDE organised and sponsored, and is being played in FIDE’s home territory of Kalmykia. To avoid any suspicion of favouritism, it would have made sense for all the match officials to be clearly independent and unbiased. Instead, what do we have? The Appeals committee consists of Georgios Makropoulos (Deputy President of FIDE), Zurab Azmaiparashvili (Vice-President of FIDE) and Jorge Vega (FIDE Continental President for the Americas) – a selection which can hardly inspire confidence in the impartiality of the Appeals Committee. Nor are the members of the Appeals Committee especially qualified for such a potentially sensitive post, since only one of the three (Vega) is an International Arbiter and only one (Azmaiparashvili) has any experience of high-level chess.

The first extraordinary act was the handing over of the video of Kramnik in his rest room to Topalov’s team. This could easily be used against Kramnik, for example by seeing if he looked agitated after a particular move in the opening. This act was so obviously wrong that one can hardly imagine it being committed by an unbiased person.

Next was the ‘toilet protest’ from Topalov’s team. Notice that not only has Kramnik not been proved to have done anything wrong, there isn’t even a single piece of evidence that he has done anything wrong. All he has done, apparently, is to wander in and out of his bathroom – a bathroom which, one must remember, was open to inspection at any time before the game.

However, this didn’t stop the Appeals Committee from deciding to lock Kramnik’s bathroom. This may not sound such a serious matter, but chess at the highest level is largely about psychology and the imposition of your will on the opponent. Achieving this away from the chessboard could easily be the first step towards doing the same on the board itself. The organisers have stated that they do not believe Kramnik is cheating; in that case, where is the logic in punishing Kramnik by making a decision that is so obviously favourable to Topalov? Moreover, Topalov declared that he would not shake hands with Kramnik. There is no requirement in the Laws of Chess that the players shake hands before the game, but not to do so is a substantial insult.

It is hard to avoid the impression that Topalov’s team realised that it would be an uphill struggle to win two games from eight (and against a player who went 15 games without loss against Garry Kasparov!) and decided to launch a psychological attack. Such tactics are far from unknown in top-level chess, but they are usually frustrated by the fair and common-sense approach of match officials, an approach which has been notably lacking in Elista. Not only was the actual decision of the Appeals Committee clearly wrong, it was also wrong to start Game 5 without any kind of agreement between the players. The result has been to plunge the whole match into crisis, since now that Topalov has been awarded Game 5 by default, it is hard to see him playing it again.

Once again chess has shot itself in the foot; who will want to sponsor a top-level chess match if the whole thing can grind to a halt over a dispute about a toilet? At least when the 1984/5 Karpov-Kasparov match was controversially terminated by the then FIDE President Campomanes, the players had managed to entertain the chess public with 48 games before everything collapsed in chaos. Apparently today’s players only have the stamina to manage 4!

John Nunn
Chess Director of Gambit Publications
  

There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #225 - 09/30/06 at 11:53:45
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I have some legal training, and my first reaction to the Appeals Committee ruling was that it should be void for want of natural justice. Audi alteram partem is law everywhere in Europe i think, it means there is a need for all parties to be heard, and a chance must be given to Kramnik to argue his case before the decision is made. This applies not only in court, but also in other arbitral or quasi-judicial settings.

How can there be justice if all parties are not heard? This is common sense, you don't even need first year law school. I'm not surprised therefore that Kramnik accuses the committee of bias.
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #224 - 09/30/06 at 10:23:43
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Willempie wrote on 09/29/06 at 21:32:22:
MNb wrote on 09/29/06 at 21:19:43:
These last lines say it all. I doubt seriously, if anyone involved, really wants to play this match. I can already hear the comments for the next couple of years. Topalov: I am the WCh, as Kramnik has refused to play. Kramnik: I am the WCh, 2-0 after four games. Do not ask me for FIDE-arguments: it has been a long time ago since I understood the actions and regulations of this organization.

Yep that will be the outcome.
Only I think that even with the 2-0 lead Kramnik's position is rather weak. IF he walks out no one will take him seriously as the WCh. It doesnt really matter what we as the insiders think, it matters how the rest sees it.


It has been a couple years since I have really cared who was the "world champion."  I considered Kramnik the world champion after he won in 2000.  Seeing as he didn't play much and Kasparov had by far the highest rating I have considered him the "best" player in the world up until he retired.  I then decided that the winner of San Luis would be the "world champion" fully expecting Anand to win, until I watched Topalov win in convincing fashion.  The whole idea of the title has lost meaning thanks to the split in the chess world.  I thought it would regain meaning with this reunification match, but even if the match finishes there is still a lot the FIDE has to work on in order to have a suitable method of crowning and challenging a "world champion."  I don't have a lot of confidence in the FIDE in succeeding at that.  So I have to ask to ask myself "does it really matter to me if their is a chess world champion?"  Not really.      
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #223 - 09/30/06 at 09:03:31
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Quote:
That is a ridiculous statement; just consider what it would mean in any sport that is played in this world  "Oh, I don't think that the referees in the next World Cup (or World Series of Baseball, or Grand Prix or whatever competition arouses your interest) should act >as referees<, but should rather work for >compromises<."  Good grief!


Well, you can live in your rule world all you want - chess players are individuals not teams owned and payed for by some billionaire, so it boils down to one thing: - Do the organisers want the match to continue or not?

The WC match Wink could just as well be compared with a business contract between two big companies - if one of the companies changes the contract unilaterally the other company would lose interest in the whole deal... Then they could sue each other for years, but the main result is that the deal is off.


Anyway, the whole affair may actually be good for chess as a 'sport' - even swedish newspapers have now had some brief mentionings of the affair, which is more than the match Kasparov-Kramnik got!  Roll Eyes

Maybe Kramnik can hit back by demanding Topalov's head searched for that famous implanted chip - and it may well get as good as '72!  Grin
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #222 - 09/30/06 at 01:39:34
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Maybe. But there is one thing all teachers know from experience: rewarding ill will - and that was without doubt the only motivation of Topalov's ridiculous complaint - stimulates ill behaviour the next time. This does not mean that I take Kramnik's side. Sitting for a locked toilet door belongs to the Ministry of Silly Walks.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #221 - 09/29/06 at 23:38:59
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MNb wrote on 09/29/06 at 21:19:43:
These last lines say it all. I doubt seriously, if anyone involved, really wants to play this match. I can already hear the comments for the next couple of years. Topalov: I am the WCh, as Kramnik has refused to play. Kramnik: I am the WCh, 2-0 after four games. Do not ask me for FIDE-arguments: it has been a long time ago since I understood the actions and regulations of this organization.


Well, no matter his objective deservingness, Topalov should have the title and the $500,000.  He is sitting at the board, waiting for his opponent's move.  Unless Kramnik plays, there is no objective basis for any other outcome.
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #220 - 09/29/06 at 23:33:45
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The same applies for written contracts. Breach of contract and agreed terms is anarchy.
  

There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Markovich
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #219 - 09/29/06 at 23:32:04
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TalJechin wrote on 09/29/06 at 20:59:14:

Anyway, my point is that the arbiters/organisers should work for compromises not as referees.


That is a ridiculous statement; just consider what it would mean in any sport that is played in this world  "Oh, I don't think that the referees in the next World Cup (or World Series of Baseball, or Grand Prix or whatever competition arouses your interest) should act >as referees<, but should rather work for >compromises<."  Good grief!

TalJechin wrote on 09/29/06 at 20:59:14:

Topalov knows the odds are against him and Kramnik doesn't need the prize money enough to swallow his pride


Uncharitable speculation of this kind can hardly be the basis of the official conduct of FIDE arbiters.  Any claim must be taken at face value.   

There must be an official, objective procedure for taking complaints and issuing rulings; there must be no question that a ruling, once given, stands.  All else is anarchy.
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #218 - 09/29/06 at 22:24:03
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3. 18. 3 After the World Chess Championship Committee agrees with the Organisers on the arrangements in respect of the tournament hall, facilities, accommodation and meals, transportation, telecommunication, ceremonies, etc., no objections from the participants shall be acceptable as long as the conditions are in accordance with the rights of the players granted in their agreemts.
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #217 - 09/29/06 at 21:32:22
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MNb wrote on 09/29/06 at 21:19:43:
These last lines say it all. I doubt seriously, if anyone involved, really wants to play this match. I can already hear the comments for the next couple of years. Topalov: I am the WCh, as Kramnik has refused to play. Kramnik: I am the WCh, 2-0 after four games. Do not ask me for FIDE-arguments: it has been a long time ago since I understood the actions and regulations of this organization.

Yep that will be the outcome.
Only I think that even with the 2-0 lead Kramnik's position is rather weak. IF he walks out no one will take him seriously as the WCh. It doesnt really matter what we as the insiders think, it matters how the rest sees it.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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MNb
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #216 - 09/29/06 at 21:19:43
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These last lines say it all. I doubt seriously, if anyone involved, really wants to play this match. I can already hear the comments for the next couple of years. Topalov: I am the WCh, as Kramnik has refused to play. Kramnik: I am the WCh, 2-0 after four games. Do not ask me for FIDE-arguments: it has been a long time ago since I understood the actions and regulations of this organization.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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TalJechin
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #215 - 09/29/06 at 20:59:14
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Quote:
If the rules say that, that is one thing.  It's quite another to refuse to play just to try to hold the governing body's feet to the fire and thus produce a change in its ruling.  There is no sport on the planet that could be governed if it tolerated that.  And, as pointed out by another poster here, the match participants agreed that the decision of the arbiters would be final.


Well, didn't Topalov 'hold the governing body's feet to the fire' with his complaint where he more or less threatened to quit the match if his demands were not met? At least that's how I'd interpret "Veselin Topalov is willing to continue his participation in the match provided that measures to guarantee fair play are taken."

And arbiters that take decisions concerning both player's conditions without getting an agreement from both sides first will hardly be trusted by both sides. It's the old Fischer-Spassky all over again - the player prepared to quit the match first to get his demands met gains so much that the other side must be prepared to equal the threat if he can... So, now we have a 'chicken' race.

Anyway, my point is that the arbiters/organisers should work for compromises not as referees. At least if they want the match to be completed. By their first ruling they've already created a stand off that will probably end the match. - Topalov knows the odds are against him and Kramnik doesn't need the prize money enough to swallow his pride.
  
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