Poll
Poll closed Question: Prediction?
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Topalov wins    
  23 (29.1%)
Kramnik wins    
  37 (46.8%)
Draw    
  2 (2.5%)
Match gets cancelled    
  17 (21.5%)
other?...    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 79
« Created by: OstapBender on: 05/25/06 at 17:35:43 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Kramnik-Topalov match (Read 88845 times)
Mortal Games
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #259 - 10/01/06 at 17:16:53
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Yes, a parapsycologist in a team of chess is a complete circus. Maybe the idea of this toilet mess was an idea of that brilliant spirit. Why the commite had to close the toilet? It was not much more simple to put a camera there and end of story? 
Topalov has the right to claim a camera on that room without cam, but not the right to force Kramnik to stay on the board all the time and to wait hours to decide drawn positions like it was Topalov strategy since the beginning of the games to fisicaly stress Kramnik as Seirawan told. 
Talking about cheating is just an ilusion and to send dust to the eyes of some people because the games had a lot of errors by both players and if someone is cheating this will never happened. In game two for example, Topalov do not saw a mate with Qc7 at some moment! But Kramnik did not see it too, because he played the wrong move before. 
Chess needs sportsman from chess like Seirawan or Nunn in the decisions and not corrupts who win elections by paying very well to small federations or commites with Azmais etc (the same who was punched in the nose in Spain, because Spain is not Khalmykia!). With these clowns we can only have: Newspapers: W.C. stopped the world chess championat!
Chess needs to be like tennis with professional commites and professional organization, because if chess have that, the result of this mess will be: 2-0 Kramnik world champion and Topalov suspended. With a professional federation, players cannot claim fool alegations and mind games to disturb other players.
Chess fans can love the style of one player or another, but if we look at the facts with justice, the game will continues with 3-1 and end of story. 
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #258 - 10/01/06 at 16:38:54
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As more I read and hear about this disaster, as more i have to wonder about few things that realy confusses me. 

Team Topalov has parapsycologist in their team. Why did they bring this person? Do they seriously belief in his "power" to desturb Kramnik`s thoughts. If we asume he has the power to disturb the thoughts of your openent, would that not been cheating? 

If Topalovs team dont believe in the power of this parapsycologist, but hoped to confuse Kramnik by simply the present of the parapsycologist, then the idea is close that to get the video/toilet storry had the same, planed intention. And we could have the impression that the entire strategy of team Topalov is to win the match next to the board.

As a  (old) Topalov fan, I hope there is an other, more fair, reason behind the present of this parapsycologist.  Cry  Cry  Cry
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #257 - 10/01/06 at 16:07:41
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Buzz wrote on 10/01/06 at 15:36:56:
Another fine mess...THANX FIDE!  Tongue


It is much less FIDE than the perception of both camps that FIDE is weak, and will yield to pressure, that gives rise to this.  Certainly Kramnik's refusal to play on until the ruling was changed AND the match committee replaced assumes a weak FIDE, so fearful of sacrificing the match that it would allow itself to be pushed around on such a trival matter as bathroom privileges.  Kramnik gambles that he will be able to have his way with FIDE, and it seems that he will win.  So FIDE continues to be weak, and world chess continues to be a loose alliance of baronial fiefdoms led by self-styled "World Champions"; backed up by their self-interested GM lackeys; and cheered on by a ridiculous serfdom of ordinary chess fans, more interested in the success of their personal favorite than in the longterm health of world chess.   

We have Garry Kasparov to thank for this, and the many top GMs who strung along with him when he tore FIDE to shreds in the first place.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Markovich
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #256 - 10/01/06 at 15:55:48
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MNb wrote on 10/01/06 at 02:29:45:
1. Topalov's complaint was a perversion of justice indeed. It hardly has any substance; it uses a lot of words to state, that Kramnik used the bathroom remarkable often. There was no single reason to play hardball.


At best, this argues that the appeals committee decided wrongly.  Anyone has the right to such an opinion.  Clearly however, Topalov had the right under the match terms to raise the issue that he raised.  What anyone thinks of the objective merit of his complaint, his supposed reasons for making it, and what the appeals committee >should have< done about it, should be a matter for journalistic commentary and post-match speculation, NOT a pretext for breaking up the match, or even threatening to.

I am amazed that the absolute necessity of governance by rule, which obligates players to respect the decisions of arbiters in every sport, is so widely disregarded on this thread.  What we have instead -- I do not accuse you of it -- is a remarkable prevalance of rhetorically puerile foot-stomping and wall-slamming over a ruling that, in substance, is remarkably inoffensive and affects both players equally.   

I am also amazed that Kramnik's strange bathroom behavior, which certainly might cause a reasonable person to suspect that he was cheating, is not seen as a >possibly< valid basis for a complaint by Topalovs team.  As I remarked earlier, if I saw a player at a weekend tournament visiting the bathroom ten times or so during each of his games, I would certainly inform the director of it.
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #255 - 10/01/06 at 15:40:13
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Mortal Games wrote on 10/01/06 at 12:09:35:
Some opinions about this match:

Quote:
GM Jonathan Rowson, British Chess Champion, London, UK
Like most chess players, I have been saddened by the recent turn of events, and hope there is some way out of this position, which now resembles a reciprocal zugzwang. Allowing the clocks to start yesterday was an organisational mistake equivalent to blundering one’s queen without compensation. After Kramnik’s inevitable forfeit, neither side can move from their respective positions without making a big concession. 




"Kramnik's 'inevitable' forfeit!"  Ridiculous.  It's one thing to have an absurdly self-important WC for whom altered bathroom privileges are a sufficient ground for refusing to continue a championship match; it's another to have GMs, thousands of miles away and in the cold light of day, making excuses for him.  "Inevitable" indeed!
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #254 - 10/01/06 at 15:36:56
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Another fine mess...THANX FIDE!  Tongue
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #253 - 10/01/06 at 12:09:35
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Some opinions about this match:

Quote:
GM Jonathan Rowson, British Chess Champion, London, UK
Like most chess players, I have been saddened by the recent turn of events, and hope there is some way out of this position, which now resembles a reciprocal zugzwang. Allowing the clocks to start yesterday was an organisational mistake equivalent to blundering one’s queen without compensation. After Kramnik’s inevitable forfeit, neither side can move from their respective positions without making a big concession. 

It would seem therefore that the situation now calls for some sort of compromise, and I notice that the FIDE President highlighted this need in his recent interview on the FIDE website. To call for the two sides to compromise sounds suitably ‘Presidential’ until you realise that compromise is not at all appropriate in the circumstances. I agree with the recent postings of John Nunn and Yasser Seirawan that the match has to be resumed at 3-1 and game five recommenced as soon as possible.

A pertinent analogue helps to highlight why compromise is not always the appropriate way to resolve a conflict: Two brothers, lets call them Vosilin and Vledimir, saw a cake on their kitchen table at the same time, assumed it was for them, and started arguing over it. Vosilin said that he liked the look of the cake and wanted all of it for himself. Vledimir said that he also wanted the cake, but given that his brother also wanted some, they should cut the cake in half and share it. 

Their father, lets call him Fido, arrived in the kitchen just in time to stop a fully fledged physical fight. Trying to be wise, Fido advised them that fighting was a childish way to solve a dispute, and that when two grownups can’t agree on something, they should seek a compromise. Fido further explained that they would both have to make a concession in order to solve the problem without fighting. 

However, the brothers held on to their respective positions, Vledimir because he felt he was right, and Vosilin because he thought it was the best strategy. Fido explained that if they weren’t willing to change their minds, he would have to resolve the situation by finding a mid-point between their two views. 

So what was the outcome? Fido cut the cake, but granted three quarters of the cake to Vosilin and only a quarter to Vledimir. 

Let us hope a similar outcome does not transpire in Elista. Compromise is NOT the solution in manifestly unfair situations. Fido’s responsibility was to tell Vosilin that his demand was unreasonable and allow the cake to be cut in half. Fide’s responsibility now is to tell the Topalov camp that their demands have been unreasonable, and restore the match score to 3-1.


Quote:
David Levy, London, GB
At the time of writing (around 7am London time on October 1st) it appears that the match in Elista is likely to come to a premature and disastrous end. In my opinion, if this happens it will be the Appeal Committee that is responsible. What should have been a relatively minor crisis has been severely exacerbated by the ruling that both players’ toilets would be closed and that the players would have to share a single toilet. To many outside the world of top class chess this might seem to be an overly strong accusation on my part, but I am convinced that it is justified.

Between moves Kramnik likes to make full use of the physical space at his disposal for walking, which is undeniably his right. It would be his right even if he did not have a medical condition that is, it would seem, eased by walking. There is nothing, in itself, wrong with what Kramnik wants. The problem lies in the fact that there have been a few established cases of computerised cheating during chess games, and Team Topalov has implied that there were insufficient controls instigated by the match organisers to ensure that no-one could justifiably suspect anything untoward during Kramnik’s frequent visits to the toilet. 

It would be madness to suggest that either player in this match would attempt to make any use of computers during a game. But that is not the point. The fact is that Kramnik’s frequent use of the toilet appears to have disturbed Topalov, whose team exercised their right to protest, since one of the golden rules of competitive chess is that it is forbidden to disturb or distract the opponent in any way whatsoever. But the right to protest does not carry with it an automatic right for a protest to be upheld, which is, in effect, what the Appeal Committee has done in Elista. It was the committee’s legal right to take any decision they felt appropriate, and they exercised that right as they were entitled to do, but the manner in which they did so was sheer madness.

It is long established that for World Championship matches each player has their own rest area and their own toilet area. In London, in 1986, for the first half of the Kasparov-Karpov match, we even arranged routes for the two players to be able to reach their respective toilets without meeting each other on the way, such was the animosity between them. The arrangements for the Elista match took the standard toilet requirements into consideration, with the agreement of both sides. But when Team Topalov protested about Kramnik’s frequent use of his toilet, the Appeal Committee failed in their duty to ensure the smooth continuation of the match. What they should have done, in my opinion, is to have arranged for both toilets to have been swept for electronic devices a few minutes prior to the start of each game, and to have advised Team Topalov that they regarded this to be a sufficient action in response to the protest. Then the match would have continued normally. There is a precedent for electronic sweeping – the Icelandic organisers examined Spassky’s chair during the 1972 match, after Fischer had suspected the chair of containing something untoward.

But instead the Appeal Committee decided to change the physical conditions of the match, and to do so in a way that contravened what both sides had agreed prior to the start of the match. It is the given right of lawmakers to make an ass of the Law if they see fit, and the Appeal Committee exercised this right, to disastrous effect.

Once the Appeal Committee had made its ruling it is extremely difficult to see how the match could have been kept on the rails. Kramnik, understandably, was unwilling to play under physical conditions that did not conform to those that had been agreed, and he should not be criticised for taking this position. The Chief Arbiter had no choice but to start the clocks and to forfeit Kramnik. Topalov should not be criticised for winning a game by forfeit, any more than Spassky should be criticised for winning the second game in Reykjavik by forfeit. Thus we can see that, following the madness of the Appeal Committee, the variation played out in Elista was forced.

So what now? Kirsan Ilyumzhinov is doing his best to resolve this chess tragedy, but in order to do so he needs, first and foremost, a magnanimous gesture from one of the players regarding the score in the match. Either Topalov gives up the point that he won by forfeit in game 5, which he has no good reason to do, or Kramik accepts that the Appeal Committee’s decision before game 5, mad though it was, had to be obeyed because it was the Law at that time. Again there is a precedent from the Reykjavik match in 1972, when Fischer accepted his forfeit and continued the match from a score of 0-2, winning the championship in brilliant style. And if Kramnik follows Fischer’s example and accepts the forfeit, he will doubtless be able to secure from the match organisers an arrangement for the toilets that also satisfies Team Topalov.

Chess lovers the world over want this match to continue. But magnanimous gestures are not the norm in World Chess Championship matches. Is there any way that might lead to the continuation of the match? Perhaps there is. If President Putin were to send Kramnik a message of good luck, telling him that Russia hopes and expects him to win the match, then perhaps we will see both the magnanimous gesture on Kramnik’s part and more reasoned toilet arrangements than those dictated by the Appeal Committtee.


  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #252 - 10/01/06 at 09:32:25
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I find it difficult to imagine that Topalov would want to give a draw away like this either. After all he is trailing two points behind. Maybe the 5th game still will be played.
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #251 - 10/01/06 at 09:01:27
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castlerock wrote on 10/01/06 at 08:34:48:
Toilet opened and appeals committee resigned. Looks like score will be set at 3.5-1.5 and the match will continue - Hopefully.


well i'm not so certain. Will Kramnik give up a draw with his White pieces in Round 5 without a single move, and go for game 6 where he has Black? I think the advantage of White is pretty significant..

The fact that the 3:1 issue (which should be the first issue decided upon) is unresolved means there is still big chance of the match aborted.
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #250 - 10/01/06 at 08:37:07
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I just wonder if the prearranged conditions didnt violate normal chess rules in the first place.
The idea of a private restroom seems to contradict the general rule that no player may leave the playing room during a game. By the same reasoning the video's from the restrooms shouldnt be secret.
Of course a bathroom or a toilet is different in privacy aspects. That is unless you use the bathroom or toilet for a different purpose as Kramnik has publicly declared, namely as an extension to the restroom.
His argument that the restroom is too small, seems rather silly. He could have have argued the point before the match start. Besides his frequent bathroom trips are apparently not caused by a medical emergency, so this may have been a psychological match tactic as well (we'll probably never know).

By the way, which idiot installed a monitor in the bathroom so that players could watch the podium (and the board position?!) from there?

@Taljechin
The fact that I argued that Kramniks behaviour after the 4th game sparked off the Topalov-team protest, doenst mean that I approve of this reaction or of any psychological warfare at that.
I mentioned it to show that K's behaviour is not spotless itself. You shouldn't be so quick to cry insult, when youre not above a little verbal warfare yourself.

Finally in my view GM Nunns reaction should not be questioned because he has critisized the Fide in past publications. I don't like the Fide either and don't think it can be trusted to provide a credible world champion cycle. Just now, the candidate matches that should have started next month have been abandonded...... Angry
What I don't like in Nunn's reaction is his bias for Kramnik and against Topalov. His argument that for all practical purposes the match is allready decided (based on Kramniks win againt Kasparov) seems a bit off topic to me.
For instance I dont see Topolav to offer two draws within 15 moves, when conducting the white pieces.


  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #249 - 10/01/06 at 08:34:48
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Toilet opened and appeals committee resigned. Looks like score will be set at 3.5-1.5 and the match will continue - Hopefully.
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #248 - 10/01/06 at 08:12:01
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LOL LOL and LOL

My theory of conspiracy is that the parapsychologist in Topalovs Team made Kramnik think, "ohh dear, I have to walk in and out the toilet"
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #247 - 10/01/06 at 03:39:11
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Yes. Wisdom is what is called for. But when I read the names of the arbiters, I am deeply pessimistic.
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #246 - 10/01/06 at 03:23:08
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The arbiters have blown it.

Before this match I had very little reason to dislike Topalov.  He plays attractive chess but made some self-serving comments before accepting the terms of the match.  There was nothing terrible in either case.  Then he lost two games, one of which he was very close to winning.  I was almost sympathetic toward him.

But now he, and especially his manager Danailov, have made ridculous claims that should have been ignored by the arbiters.  Markovich is completely wrong in suggesting Topalov's case had merit. 

John Nunn's open letter is about what I wou have written about the situation if I thought it would have made any difference at all.  Ok, Nunn's letter was more tactful than mine would have been.

Yasser Seirawan's letter and offer of mediation is nice, but unnecessary.  The arbiters have dug themselves a deep whole.  If their opinion is to carry any weight, then the decision to forfeit Kramnik is the only consistent decision to make.  They also have to acknowledge that both their decision to close the toilet and not to grant Kramnik a chance to be heard (in America, it's Habeas Corpus that covers this right) were both reversibly wrong.

So the consistent choice would be for the arbiters to admit an error, open the bathrooms and give Topalov the point for game 5.  Of course this consistent choice would probably result in Kramnik's forfeiture of the match.   

Ok, so consistency be damned (The censorbot be damned.  That is, be condemned to hell.)  The arbiters need to announce that they made a mistake.  This mistake led inevitably to Kramnik's over-reaction.  FIDE needs to have a chess game this weekend, so both players will have to agree to play a game on Sunday, with Kramnik having White and the current score being 3-1 in favor of Kramnik.  The arbiters will search the toilets before and after each game but not limit the number of potty trips either player may make.   

Then the arbiters should call for an extra rest day and reschedule events in order to allow the players to calm down after all this mess.

Will they do it?  Of course not.  They have egos just as big as the players involved.  But if they want to save chess from another 5-10 years of wandering the desert, they'd better do something.  Admitting they made a mistake would be an unprecedented but good start.
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #245 - 10/01/06 at 02:29:45
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1. Topalov's complaint was a perversion of justice indeed. It hardly has any substance; it uses a lot of words to state, that Kramnik used the bathroom remarkable often. There was no single reason to play hardball.

2. The reaction of the arbiter's committe was undiplomatic, to say it friendly.

3. Kramnik sitting for a locked door is ridiculous and unproportional.

Conclusion: it's just another fine mess, they turned us in. The only way to avoid vomiting is mocking.
  

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