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Poll closed Question: Prediction?
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Topalov wins    
  23 (29.1%)
Kramnik wins    
  37 (46.8%)
Draw    
  2 (2.5%)
Match gets cancelled    
  17 (21.5%)
other?...    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 79
« Created by: OstapBender on: 05/25/06 at 17:35:43 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Kramnik-Topalov match (Read 88860 times)
Markovich
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #349 - 10/02/06 at 18:32:52
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/02/06 at 15:04:35:

To answer your last point, of course the Appeals Committee can forfeit someone caught cheating and no, of course it doesn’t follow from that that they can adjust the conditions of contest to rule out the possibility. I don’t know what you can have in mind with this comment.


My only point here was, (1) I am rather sure the match terms provide for the cash prize as well as for the bathrooms; and (2) I doubt that concerning the cash, the provisions say anything like "unless the committee forfeits you out of the match."  Since the committee clearly has the power to do the latter on certain grounds -- thus denying a player his 12-game shot at the prize as provided in the contract terms, this would seem to be an instance where the committee has the implicit right (through the paragraphs I quoted, I assume) to "overturn" the match provisions, simply awarding the prize to the other player with no further play.   

All right, if it has THAT much power in apparent contravention of the letter of the match terms, doesn't that imply that it has substantial other powers, including, presumably, the power to adjust the bathroom access? 

Suppose I were playing Topalov, cheated, and was caught -- but before Topalov had built up a winning score.  The match committee presumably would forfeit me out of the match.  Could I not then say, consistently with everything you've been saying here, "Wait a minute!  I have a contract with you that says, best score in 12 games wins the prize.  It doesn't say, unless I'm caught cheating.  You must let me continue to play for the prize, or else violate your contract."
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #348 - 10/02/06 at 17:54:15
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Todays game once again gave me the impression that Kramnik is just terribly good at keeping a position lifeless and equal. It's almost impossible to beat him if he continues to play like this.

And as this is a site for opening theory: What does today's game mean for the state of the Ne5-Slav? Topalov could not achieve much today, so how does white play for an advantage in this system?
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #347 - 10/02/06 at 17:27:47
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It really has been a year for these kind of shennanigans: first a brilliant World Cup was clouded by a last-minute act of stupidity, and now the chance of some brilliant chess is devolving into ridiculous complaints.  At this point, we can only hope that either Kramnik holds on and wins the match in spite of the one point disadvantage or he continues to play well, but Topalov rolls over him and makes up the difference and then some.  At this point, it's hard not to be pulling for Kramnik...
  

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Mortal Games
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #346 - 10/02/06 at 16:59:58
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One more reasonable opinion:

Quote:
The 12th world champion comments on the situation in the Kramnik-Topalov match
[The interview took place before it was known that Kramnik would play game six] 

Karpov: I would like to say that the problems Illumzhinov is wrestling with are of his own making. This is because in recent times, serving on an appeals committee has become a reward for past services rendered. But in reality, this is a job for specialists, who have proven themselves to be above reproach. In my day, the procedure for appointing members of an appeals committee was as follows: the international federation presented a list of five people, with suitable qualifications; and the participants each listed them in order of preference. Each was given points, and the ones who got the most, went onto the committee.

And there were no protests?

There were protests. But the Appeals Committee was comprised of people who could be trusted, and were of unimpeachable reputation. And specialists, naturally. There is no need to speak of Azmaiparashvili, and particularly of his reputation. Thanks to the fact that the players were given no say in the matter, you end up with “operators” like him on the committee. Work on this committee is paid, and paid very well, so of course, there are lots of people wanting the job. But only those who are reliable and deserving should get it. It seems clear that Illumzhinov realised that they had messed up, but he was unable to clear up all of the mess. And if Kramnik continues the match, it means that they have simply stolen a point from him.

Perhaps Kramnik’s team did not do things quite right? They could have protested before the game.

In general, frankly speaking, I do not understand all of these goings-on, but it is perfectly clear that the Bulgarian delegation wanted to disturb Kramnik’s equanimity, and thereby to try to improve their chances. They have succeeded. They got a point illegally. I don’t know how this has affected Kramnik’s morale, but it can hardly have helped. I would say that they used immoral methods. It would perhaps be difficult to sue anyone over this, although I think it could be possible to do so successfully, all the more so considering that Illumzhinov, as President, has the power to overrule the Appeals Committee. If he can overrule their first decision, and dismiss them, then that means he can overrule their subsequent decisions also. If their first decision is illegal, that means so was their second.

Illumzhinov said that legally, the score has to be 3:2...

He got himself into this mess, and getting out of it is not simple. Of course, whatever you do, one side or the other will be unhappy. If one speaks of the moral side of it, I don’t understand how Topalov can continue to play on with such a burden. I could not. But as far as Topalov is concerned, everything is great – he took a shot and seized his chance!

If you were in Kramnik’s place, would you play on?

I would not continue the match.

Interview by Oleg Pervakov in 64 Review 
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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TopNotch
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #345 - 10/02/06 at 15:20:18
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Keano wrote on 10/02/06 at 15:05:24:
TopNotch - I see what you are saying, but the player awarded the forfeit also has rights. It seems like it is putting him at a disadvantage to firstly award him the game after he has turned up to play and his opponent has stayed in his rest-room, and then to take that point back (which is the only way to "redress the wrong" you talk of). 

Rowson talked of a "mutual zugzwang" in his other letter - and in this I completely agree with our GM friend. Once the decision is taken to start game 5 I am afraid it is a very tricky road back. My view of natural justice is that the point must stand - if the majority of titled players disagree with me (which of course we dont know for sure) then so be it. I feel that some of them are using this issue as a political whip, I am not fond of FIDE or Kirsan myself (far from it) but I am just trying to interpret the events as I see them with no hidden agendas.


Agreed....it is a tricky road back and on reflection I think both players have legitimate recourse against Fide regardless of whatever decision is finally taken regarding game five. 

Lets hope that the outcome of the match doesn't eventually rest on the verdict surrounding game five.

Toppers Smiley      
  

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Keano
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #344 - 10/02/06 at 15:05:24
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TopNotch - I see what you are saying, but the player awarded the forfeit also has rights. It seems like it is putting him at a disadvantage to firstly award him the game after he has turned up to play and his opponent has stayed in his rest-room, and then to take that point back (which is the only way to "redress the wrong" you talk of). 

Rowson talked of a "mutual zugzwang" in his other letter - and in this I completely agree with our GM friend. Once the decision is taken to start game 5 I am afraid it is a very tricky road back. My view of natural justice is that the point must stand - if the majority of titled players disagree with me (which of course we dont know for sure) then so be it. I feel that some of them are using this issue as a political whip, I am not fond of FIDE or Kirsan myself (far from it) but I am just trying to interpret the events as I see them with no hidden agendas.
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #343 - 10/02/06 at 15:04:35
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I slightly doubt that – if Topalov had wanted a quick draw I’m not sure he’d have gone 6 Ne5.

Surely it’s obvious why people think Topalov’s a scumbag: he basically accused Kramnik of cheating on no evidence at all, the Committee made a decision which in the opinion of most people was substantively ludicrous and which was obviously procedurally hopeless, Kramnik refused to play as anyone would have done, and Topalov wants a free point to continue with his privileges as FIDE’s champion since he sees he’s going to lose over the board. Not much to be proud of there.

The contract is of course hopelessly drafted (one wonders whether it was even done by a lawyer: it certainly wasn’t done by a decent UK lawyer, although I know this sort of vagueness is rather more the continental and perhaps also US style). It is clear though that no written representations from Kramnik were considered by the AC and that the contract specifically calls for this. That in itself is a simply outrageous procedural lapse which entitled Kramnik to refuse to play until the matter was properly sorted out.

I think we’re going round in circles. The contract does not say what the AC can do and we have to supply that as best we can. But it does say, specifically, that Kramnik shall have a lavatory (his own, barring the absurd Macropoulos quibble), and that once the facilities have been accepted no protest about them shall be entertained. It is inconceivable that the AC was to be entitled to overrule specific provisions of this kind.

As usual of course there is no decent source I’ve found which reports simply the procedural course of events. Anyone got one?

To answer your last point, of course the Appeals Committee can forfeit someone caught cheating and no, of course it doesn’t follow from that that they can adjust the conditions of contest to rule out the possibility. I don’t know what you can have in mind with this comment.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #342 - 10/02/06 at 14:56:18
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Keano wrote on 10/02/06 at 14:28:03:
I am getting a bit tired of this talk of Topalov as a low life and what have you. We dont know the full story - I agree his manager seems a bit of a snake.

Anyway they have shook hands at the beginning of this game, hopefully there can be no more nastiness in the match and we can concentrate on the chess.

TopNotch - it is all very well these GM´s think the score is wrong but as I said they are living in a cloud cuckoo land if they think they can turn back time now - the game has already happened. I know John Cox has come on here and said different, but I am a simple man and it just makes no sense - the game has transpired already. I´m not sure Kramnik fully thought through the consequences of his sit-in but we have to all remember to put things into proportion. Topalov is not an evil low-life, Kramnik is not a saint, we are in a match and by some miracle it is going to continue now!


It is not about going back in time, its about redressing a major error, should this match somehow become deadlocked, unlikely though it is, I am sure the decision regarding game five will be re-visited and presided over.

I am most impressed by the solidarity and clarity of thought that most titled players have exhibited regarding this issue. Perhaps there is hope after all for our royal game.

Tops Smiley
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #341 - 10/02/06 at 14:46:40
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Markovich wrote on 10/02/06 at 14:43:06:

I suspect that Topalov is as troubled by recent events as Kramnik is, and didn't want to press for fear of coming unstuck and losing.  That would really make him look ridiculous.


precisely my sentiments. If Topalov had lost today, he can go shoot himself.
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #340 - 10/02/06 at 14:45:17
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Keano wrote on 10/02/06 at 14:28:03:
I am getting a bit tired of this talk of Topalov as a low life and what have you. We dont know the full story - I agree his manager seems a bit of a snake.

Anyway they have shook hands at the beginning of this game, hopefully there can be no more nastiness in the match and we can concentrate on the chess.

TopNotch - it is all very well these GM´s think the score is wrong but as I said they are living in a cloud cuckoo land if they think they can turn back time now - the game has already happened. I know John Cox has come on here and said different, but I am a simple man and it just makes no sense - the game has transpired already. I´m not sure Kramnik fully thought through the consequences of his sit-in but we have to all remember to put things into proportion. Topalov is not an evil low-life, Kramnik is not a saint, we are in a match and by some miracle it is going to continue now!



You are the very voice of reason.  Thank you for those remarks.
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #339 - 10/02/06 at 14:43:48
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Fascinating stuff. I hope you're all having fun. See you around...
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #338 - 10/02/06 at 14:43:06
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lnn2 wrote on 10/02/06 at 14:37:54:
Hello, i did post just now that i think Topalov played a little wimply today. 10. Bxd4 trying to preserve queens would be more combative, but maybe Topalov doesn't want to fight.
Kramnik's innovation 8... Bg6 is interesting. He isn't afraid to play with the "bad" bishop on g6.. this is slightly surprising and goes against conventional wisdom. Around move 20 Seirawan on playchess commented White's light squared bishop on c4 was just as bad as Black's Bg6. Quite perceptive.


I suspect that Topalov is as troubled by recent events as Kramnik is, and didn't want to press for fear of coming unstuck and losing.  That would really make him look ridiculous.
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #337 - 10/02/06 at 14:42:17
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/02/06 at 14:24:26:
Willempie: It’s a problem of Topalov’s for this reason: game five is supposed to have taken place. Either it was organised according to the contract, or it wasn’t. It doesn’t matter whether Topalov thinks it was or not: if a court finds it wasn’t then the game doesn’t count contractually for the match. That would mean FIDE was in breach of its contract with Topalov to organise the game validly, but it wouldn’t mean he was entitled to say that actually it did happen validly.

That part I understand, though you will get a really weird argument if the forfeit influences the outcome (ie score is equal with it and Topalov then decides to go for a draw).
What I dont get is why Topalov should undertake any action. As far as he is concerned there is no breach and no decision has been taken suggesting that the game wasnt under the proper conditions.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #336 - 10/02/06 at 14:39:56
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/02/06 at 14:09:24:
Some blogger does say that on the link you posted, but I can’t follow him at all. The notion that the Appeals Committee can overrule a clear contractual provision which says that certain things cannot be altered just has no conceivable basis to me.

To be sure there is jurisdiction to entertain a complaint about Kramnik’s behaviour. But how one leaps from that to deciding that the AC could change the conditions of contest is quite beyond me, especially when the contract specifically says that they cannot. Are you not making the very mistake you decry – saying that you think, and you think most people would think, it was a fair, proportionate, etc, response. Maybe it was, and maybe it wasn’t, but that’s not the point. The point is that it was something the AC were not entitled, indeed explicitly forbidden, by the rules to do, and the result was game five was never organised under the agreed conditions.

The expression ‘remedies which indeed alter some of the contract provisions’ speaks for itself to an English lawyer. Nothing (except fraud, illegality, etc) can alter the contractual provisions; all the AC can do is carry them into effect.

To be fair, if Kramnik does sue heaven knows what law it will be under, so what I or any other English lawyer would think probably doesn’t matter very much.


Here are the provisions of the match terms empowering the arbiters, which I lifted from Susan Polgar's website:

3. 17 Appeals Committee.

3. 17. 1 The President or his Deputy shall be Chairman of the Appeals Committee. There shall be two (2) other members all from different Federations. No member of the Appeals Committee can be from the federation of either player.

All protests must be submitted in writing to the Appeals Committee not more than two (2) hours after the relevant playing session, or the particular infringement complained against.

The Committee may decide on the following matters:

a) an appeal against a decision by an arbiter,
b) a protest against a player's behaviour,
c) a complaint alleging false interpretation of the regulations,
d) a request for the interpretation of specific regulations,
e) a protest or complaint against any participant, or
f) all other matters which the Committee considers important.

If possible, the Committee shall reach a decision not more than two (2) hours after the submission of a protest. The appeals process shall include written representations and a written decision.

The Committee shall endeavour to find binding solutions that are within the true spirit of the FIDE motto, Gens Una Sumus. Each protest must be accompanied by a deposit fee of USD 5,000 (five thousand US Dollars) or the equivalent in local currency.

If the protest is accepted as logical and reasonable, the fee shall be returned even if the protest will be rejected. The fees not to be returned due to unreasonable protests shall be forfeited to FIDE.

The written decision of the Appeals Committee arising from any dispute in respect of these regulations shall be final.


Note (b), (e) and most particularly (f).  Also note the last sentence.  I don't know the Law, still less that of your country, but merely on the basis of reasonableness, it is not obvious from the foregoing what, if any, limitations these provisions place upon the committee's power.

Unfortunately I don't have the rest of the document, but I imagine that it says that 12 games will be played and that the player finishing with the most points will receive $500,000.  I doubt if it says, "unless forfeited out of the match for cheating," yet I believe it is in the power of the committee to declare that a player caught cheating forfeits his right to further play, the title and the cash prize.  THAT is in their power, but not the adjustment of bathroom privileges?
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #335 - 10/02/06 at 14:37:54
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Hello, i did post just now that i think Topalov played a little wimply today. 10. Bxd4 trying to preserve queens would be more combative, but maybe Topalov doesn't want to fight.
Kramnik's innovation 8... Bg6 is interesting. He isn't afraid to play with the "bad" bishop on g6.. this is slightly surprising and goes against conventional wisdom. Around move 20 Seirawan on playchess commented White's light squared bishop on c4 was just as bad as Black's Bg6. Quite perceptive.
  
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