Poll
Poll closed Question: Prediction?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Topalov wins    
  23 (29.1%)
Kramnik wins    
  37 (46.8%)
Draw    
  2 (2.5%)
Match gets cancelled    
  17 (21.5%)
other?...    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 79
« Created by: OstapBender on: 05/25/06 at 17:35:43 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Kramnik-Topalov match (Read 88882 times)
IMJohnCox
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #364 - 10/03/06 at 11:03:22
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Well, we’ve discussed that, haven’t we, but I think you are making a common mistake among sports people (as opposed to sports lawyers – which I’m not, by the way) in failing to grasp the significance of the contract in giving a sporting event meaning.

To take an obvious example, nothing in the laws of the game fixes the start time. That is determined by the conditions of contest, which are nothing more or less than a contract between the players and the organiser. If the organiser decrees that a game will start at midnight instead of the fixed time, you look at the contract. Has the player contracted to play under these circumstances or not? If the organiser has reserved the right to alter the start time, then the player has to turn up. If the organiser hasn’t, he can forfeit the player all he likes, but the player has contractual remedies.

The position here is analogous. The crucial thing is not what the laws of the game might say – you don’t turn up within an hour, that’s it – but whether the organiser was contractually entitled to demand that Kramnik play without a private bathroom. To all appearances the organiser was not so entitled. You say that in fact he was because it must have been intended that the Appeals Committee can alter the agreed conditions of contest. I find that notion far-fetched, but we’ve discussed it. Macropoulos used a different argument: he said that they had not changed the conditions of contest because the contract does not entitle the players to a private bathroom. This argument is very weak – it is clear that everyone thought that the words in question did mean that until it became convenient to Makropoulos to construe them differently.

But the point is that to say a loss by forfeit cannot be reversed is nonsense. The question is not one of the laws of the game but of whether FIDE is in breach of its contract to organise the match on certain terms. If they are, it is trite law that Kramnik is entitled to refuse to play.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #363 - 10/03/06 at 10:51:23
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Come now, Markovich, even you would have to agree that the committee considered a protest which was made out of time, and that they did so without considering written representations from Kramnik’s team (or indeed giving him the opportunity to make any), which they were required to do by the regulations governing the match. ‘Flawed’ is the very mildest term that could be applied to the committee’s decision.

I find it a bit silly joining the gutter press in mocking the gravity of the situation. It’s really rather unimaginative not to be able to grasp the psychological significance of a private space in these matches. There’s a reason all top-level matches have had them for a long time. 

I can understand that in this day and age there might be an argument over whether there should be an unobserved private space, but these things have to be – and were - resolved once and for all before the match. Performance state on these occasions means absolutely everything. There is also psychological significance in maintaining an established routine, established surroundings, that suit you, especially when things are going well.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #362 - 10/03/06 at 10:41:54
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/03/06 at 10:17:51:
Topalov’s better off than that, castlerock: he doesn’t just have draw odds; he has the bonus that even if he loses over the board by a single point, he still has the chance to win in rapids. Although I venture to predict that even if he does he’ll lose in a courtroom (absent the likely compromise of some kind). I certainly hope so.

As to the opening, I’d have thought Topalov has to try right-handed, doesn’t he? If he does go d4 though it will be interesting: will we see the Slav again, or will it be something else?


Since Kramnik voluntarily refused to sit down and play his opponent in the forfeited game, I think that his claim to the forfeited point will be an exceedingly difficult one to make.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #361 - 10/03/06 at 10:38:55
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Antillian wrote on 10/02/06 at 19:05:57:
I find it interesting that some argue (rightly or wrongly) that Kramnik should have played Game Five under protest rather than to forfeit the game.   

I am sure most would agree that had he chosen that path then his bathroom would probably have remained closed and the flawed appeals panel would have remained in place. 


Private bathrooms (the plural is correct) remain closed?  Oh horror!

The "flawed" appeals committee?  As demonstrated by what?  The utterly unconscienable bathroom adjustment, I presume?

One point you do omit: had Kramnik merely sat down and played, the score at the start of the next game would have been 3-1, not 3-2.
  

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IMJohnCox
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #360 - 10/03/06 at 10:17:51
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Topalov’s better off than that, castlerock: he doesn’t just have draw odds; he has the bonus that even if he loses over the board by a single point, he still has the chance to win in rapids. Although I venture to predict that even if he does he’ll lose in a courtroom (absent the likely compromise of some kind). I certainly hope so.

As to the opening, I’d have thought Topalov has to try right-handed, doesn’t he? If he does go d4 though it will be interesting: will we see the Slav again, or will it be something else?
  
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Klick
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #359 - 10/03/06 at 09:42:15
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It's not immediately obvious where white should look for improvements in that game (9.d5 hardly looks like one) so I don't think we will see the Ne5-slav in the next game. However, as Topalov has no reason to complain about the position in game 2 it wouldn't surprise me if we saw another e3-slav.

Yet another rest-day?!
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #358 - 10/03/06 at 09:35:30
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You wouldn't happen to have a reference link to that decision? The only mention I've seen is at TWIC: Quote:
'Game 7 Wednesday which will see Topalov as white again, a switch half way through the match that is new for this match.'


Though it may not be bad for Kramnik at all, 3 blacks in a row may well be more than compensated by having white in both the first and especially the last game. Though I still don't see why FIDE made this change, they don't play every day anyway, so why would it matter if they had the same amount of whites after one rest day??
  
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castlerock
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #357 - 10/03/06 at 09:24:13
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TalJechin wrote on 10/03/06 at 09:17:11:
Why is Tölpalov white in both game six and seven?? Was this agreed from the beginning or is it a mistake? - FIDE's site give Kramnik as white in the 7th on the 'Live Game' page and as black on the 'News' page...  Roll Eyes


They were supposed to get same number of white games after rest day. It is part of agreement. They could have scheduled Game 7 with Kramnik as white today and Rest day tomorrow. But it requires negotiation. Even FIDE must have feared negotiation with Topalov-Danailov combine and let the matter pass. Wink Net result is Kramnik has 3 blacks in a row.
  

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castlerock
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #356 - 10/03/06 at 09:17:55
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Yes. For a change. I had to give in, despite myself.  Cry I thought 24.Rad1 was a very good move. But for this move, I thought, Black would have more than equalized and I would have guessed that Kramnik would have gone on to win the game! What with a thorough bind on white’s queenside pawns! But, no annotator seems to subscribe to my view. Perhaps, the advantage I thought of, was imaginary and 24.Rad1 is perhaps, normal at that level. 

BTW, call me anything you want, these are the types of games I love!

For game 7 either a novelty in e3 slav or 1.e4 would be my guess. So tomorrow we have Berlin or Petroff or Slav on cards with only one result. Draw.

BTW2, How much the world loves Kramnik’s draws now! Grin
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #355 - 10/03/06 at 09:17:11
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Why is Tölpalov white in both game six and seven?? Was this agreed from the beginning or is it a mistake? - FIDE's site give Kramnik as white in the 7th on the 'Live Game' page and as black on the 'News' page...  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #354 - 10/03/06 at 08:38:42
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Could we have some chess talk please? 

Is 8...Bg6 really a good move? According to some on-line sources (http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3393 , http://e3e5.com/eng/petersburg/competitions/article.html?248 , http://chesspro.ru/match/ ) black seems to be fine throughout the game. Marin compares this line with the Berlin Ruy Lopez. Had the same thought myself.

What are your opening predictions for the next game?

a) Ne5 slav
b) e3 slav
c) 1.e4
d) other


  

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castlerock
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #353 - 10/03/06 at 06:56:46
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Very good point Inn2. It didn’t occur to me. But an “eleven” game match is too short to find holes in the repertoire anyway, unless all the seconds are parapsychologists! Wink

Further, three whites in a row is too good a point to poke fun at Mr.Toiletgate. Too bad, if one has to pass it up in the name of objectivity! Grin
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #352 - 10/03/06 at 06:28:58
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I don't think three whites in a row now is such an asset for Topalov. 

First, he needs to regain objectivity and forget about the scandal, if he wants to calm down in such circumstances it's probably easier to take black and draw. Secondly, after testing both Slav 6. e3 and 6. Ne5, he has just only started to have a general idea of Kramnik's repertoire. Its probably too short period of time to find significant improvements which have not been predicted by Kramnik. I think spreading his Whites out over a few days will give his seconds more time.
  
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castlerock
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #351 - 10/03/06 at 05:47:03
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Topaloo has in effect got himself
1)      A World Championship match with 11 games (Six whites – 5 blacks)
2)      Draw odds for himself and not for his opponent.
3)      Best of all – Three whites in a row! Grin

Ominous indeed! I hope he loses even after all these gifts!
  

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Antillian
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #350 - 10/02/06 at 19:05:57
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I find it interesting that some argue (rightly or wrongly) that Kramnik should have played Game Five under protest rather than to forfeit the game.   

I am sure most would agree that had he chosen that path then his bathroom would probably have remained closed and the flawed appeals panel would have remained in place. 

I doubt Kramnik realistically expects Game Five to ever be played, anymore than the player who sacrifices material for positional gain expects to win back that  material by force in the short term. Nonethelss in the long term, the player expects a superior position on the board and eventual victory as a reward for his judgement.

Let's hope Kramnik has sufficient compensation for his positional sacrifice.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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