Poll
Poll closed Question: Prediction?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Topalov wins    
  23 (29.1%)
Kramnik wins    
  37 (46.8%)
Draw    
  2 (2.5%)
Match gets cancelled    
  17 (21.5%)
other?...    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 79
« Created by: OstapBender on: 05/25/06 at 17:35:43 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Kramnik-Topalov match (Read 88846 times)
Willempie
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #64 - 09/15/06 at 19:40:28
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IMJohnCox wrote on 09/15/06 at 14:43:39:
There’s a difference between not protesting and coming out positively in support of Ilyumzhinov at the election as Topalov did. Of course Kramnik has negotiated with the FIDE president from time to time and I dare say they’ve been photographed together – how could he not?

Yep principles are always the first to go when honour or money is involved. I am not going into this debate about FIDE, other then stating that I think my chess association should drop out of FIDE.
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True, Kramnik has also always said that he believes he is the true champion. But then he’s right. I suppose part of my objection to Topalov’s utterances was that in my view Kramnik so manifestly has the better claim. But on any view it was pathetic for Topalov to call Kramnik ‘the number six player in the world’ and ask why he should play him. The guy has no class.

I think you're first remark is the core of the issue and why this match is there in the first place. Is he the right champion or not?
I found his remarks a bit over the top as well, but on the other hand quite understandable after witnessing all the previous hassle about the WC AND ending up with a huge margin (including a sabbatical the last 7 rounds). Also Kramnik's results had been anything but impressive at that moment (luckily he improved much lately), so I read the remarks more in the vain of "I've proven my claim, so if he wants that match he has to make it happen as he is the one who needs to show it"
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As to Mansell et al, Kramnik did something Topalov could never have done – he beat Kasparov. If chess history ended now, it’s Topalov who would be the footnote.

Yes and Euwe beat Alekhine, yet chess history for some reason puts more importance on that funny writer Nimzowitsch Wink
If Topalov can keep up these results he is one of the most impressive Wchamps since Alekhine. We tend to forget that we have been spoiled with Karpov and Kasparov who almost always showed they were the best during their tenure.

And personally I like it when a sporter makes the rest of the field look like amateurs. I think many spectators loved it when Armstrong just cycled away on the heaviest col or when Fischer had his unbelievable run in those donut matches. It just shows that even when they have won they keep giving their best. 
Of course if they do it everytime it gets a bit boring Grin
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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TalJechin
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #63 - 09/15/06 at 16:56:25
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Well, claiming to be the real champion etc comes with the territory - just like a boxing WC the combattants are supposed to create some kind of buzz around the event.

And actively supporting Ilyumzhinov is not the most moral thing to do - but on the other hand, Topalov's WC-title is guaranteed by FIDE - so, if he wants to keep the title he'd better not bite the wrong hand...

Kramnik's claim is hardly any better than Topalov's - sure he beat Kasparov but never gave him a return match. Besides, Kramnik wasn't even qualified to play Garri (as he lost the semi final to Shirov) - so the very least he could do was offer him a return match.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #62 - 09/15/06 at 14:43:39
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There’s a difference between not protesting and coming out positively in support of Ilyumzhinov at the election as Topalov did. Of course Kramnik has negotiated with the FIDE president from time to time and I dare say they’ve been photographed together – how could he not?

True, Kramnik has also always said that he believes he is the true champion. But then he’s right. I suppose part of my objection to Topalov’s utterances was that in my view Kramnik so manifestly has the better claim. But on any view it was pathetic for Topalov to call Kramnik ‘the number six player in the world’ and ask why he should play him. The guy has no class.

As to Mansell et al, Kramnik did something Topalov could never have done – he beat Kasparov. If chess history ended now, it’s Topalov who would be the footnote.
  
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Willempie
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #61 - 09/15/06 at 14:27:52
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IMJohnCox wrote on 09/15/06 at 12:38:16:
I can’t respect in the slightest anyone who comes out for Ilyumzhinov, for a start. Ilyumzhinov’s a murderous kleptocrat and there’s no excuse for backing him in any way.

Well both are nice enough to have their picture taken with him. And yes this match should not be played under FIDE and certainly not there. I havent heard Kramnik protesting either unfortunately.
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I also haven’t liked the way Topalov has been boasting about being the real World Champion and dissing Kramnik, and I don’t find his pronouncement that the duty of the World Champion is to make money appealing, although from a different character it might have a certain ironic honesty which I would appreciate.

Well I like it better than false modesty. While Kramnik hasnt been yelling he has given quite enough statements in which he considers himself the true WC. Plus as a sportsfan I like the player who creams the competition. That is why Schumacher is among the greatest and Nigel Mansell a footnote.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #60 - 09/15/06 at 13:46:34
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especially if his opponent is prone to quick draws...


I don't agree. Kramnik don't want draws but he wants to win matches/tournaments. And sometimes it's a good choice to make a draw to save energy.   
I hope Kramnik will win, because of the same reasons John has given.

Tom
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #59 - 09/15/06 at 12:38:16
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I can’t respect in the slightest anyone who comes out for Ilyumzhinov, for a start. Ilyumzhinov’s a murderous kleptocrat and there’s no excuse for backing him in any way.

I also haven’t liked the way Topalov has been boasting about being the real World Champion and dissing Kramnik, and I don’t find his pronouncement that the duty of the World Champion is to make money appealing, although from a different character it might have a certain ironic honesty which I would appreciate.
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #58 - 09/15/06 at 12:07:06
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IMJohnCox wrote on 09/15/06 at 11:39:53:
OK, I think we’re experiencing language difficulties rather than genuinely disagreeing – except that for some extraordinary reason you want Topalov to win. I find Topalov a deeply unsympathetic figure and his popularity very difficult to understand.


Hmm, it seems I must've missed a lot of chess gossip, as I have no idea why Topalov would be 'deeply unsymphatetic' - he had some comments about Kramnik being too low rated and there was some accusations about Cheparinov and cheating - which I don't recall being taken too seriously. So, can you give any examples of why you find Topalov so unsymphatetic?

Generally, Topalov's popularity seems easy to explain I think, as more players prefer Topalov's aggressive style rather than Kramnik's solidity. The player who tries to win every game will always be more popular among the spectators - especially if his opponent is prone to quick draws...
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #57 - 09/15/06 at 11:39:53
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OK, I think we’re experiencing language difficulties rather than genuinely disagreeing – except that for some extraordinary reason you want Topalov to win. I find Topalov a deeply unsympathetic figure and his popularity very difficult to understand.

Your last comment is interesting though. I suspect there’s a little bit of truth in what you say about menus (when Short beat Karpov his second Sosonko claimed in an article about the match that he made all the menu choices and told Short when to go to the lavatory so that the latter could save any energy he might otherwise have used on such decisions for the match – as far as I could tell he was perfectly serious, and actually I can imagine such an approach being effective. Topalov has similarly attributed his increase in strength to having a team around him which takes care of as many decisions as possible, although whether Danailov tells him when to pee I slightly doubt.) 

But I meant audience reaction: this (ie clapping the moves the audience approved of) does seem once upon a time to have been the norm in Russia. For example Tal speaks of his liking for playing in front of a live audience which reacted to his moves. And didn’t they have to move the sixth (? anyway the KID Tal won with the famous …Nf4 sacrifice) game into a private room in 1960 because the audience was chanting for Tal? And hell, why not? I expect batsmen would prefer it if the crowd didn’t play trumpets during the bowler’s run-up at the West Indies Oval tests, but would the world be a better place?
  
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Willempie
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #56 - 09/15/06 at 11:17:04
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Before I reply keep in mind that I am talking margins here. These guys play at such high level that reflections are always magnified to a certain degree. Similar to what happened with Euwe and Alekhine, where the former was painted as the "logician" and the latter as the "improvisor", but if you look at their games this is difficult to maintain it in such wording.
IMJohnCox wrote on 09/15/06 at 10:47:47:
I don't agree with a word of that!

IMHO Topalov needs to play dynamic irrational positions as much as possible. In technical positions Kramnik is stronger.

Isnt that what digging into (not digging in as in going defensive) a position means? Ie ala Botwinnik converting a technical advantage into a win even if it takes 80 moves.
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I don't at all agree about preparation either; Topalov's recent success, as he's said himself, is based on exceptional preparation and in particular having the total loyalty of a very strong regular second. This is more Topalov's strength than Kramnik's.

Yes that is what I mean. This advantage will diminish if Toppy plays the same openings each time and would allow Kramnik to dig into the types of positions better allowing him his "technical" play. Eg let's assume Toppy plays the KI (not likely) and keeps playing it. The first game may catch Kramnik at unawares, but if he repeats the same type of play the next game I feel Kramnik will be better suited to deal with this "position style repetition". 
Eg in an interview with Spassky he also said that his results were best in matches when openings got repeated as he could then focus on the middle game in his preparation. This is probably why Fischer bombarded him with completely different openings every time. Even an Alekhine twice Wink
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Nor do I recognise your description of 'many former Soviet champs'. The only one it could possibly be said to apply to is Botvinnik. And anyway it's a myth that Kramnik's a great match player; he lost to Shirov at a time when on the face of it he was the stronger, and he lost to someone not obviously stronger than him - two people in fact - in the PCA and FIDE cycles in 94-96. Kamsky and someone else, possibly Anand? And this at a time when he was already posting good tournament results and finishing ahead of Gazza from time to time.

Problem is that Toppy has even less impressive results in that department. The 'former Soviet champs" refers to for example the famed K-K matches where refinements on previous openings were commonplace. After each match it would be difficult to point to 2 greater experts on eg the QGD.
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Interesting Kramnik has Rublevsky on his team. Are we going to see some QGAs?

That would be very interesting to see.
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I don't reckon much to home advantage either; from what I gather Elista is a hell-hole and won't seem like home to either player. Although I suppose Kramnik might be a little more used to hellholes than Topalov, coming from Pfudz or whatever his birthplace is called, while Sofia might be a little more agreeable.

I have no experience with playing WC matches, but I would think that day-to-day things are much easier when in a familiar environment. Such simple things as reading a menu and the dinner itself could impact your focus (or the focus of the seconds). 
I do doubt we will hear the audience clap every Kramnik move followed by booing Topalovs Grin
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #55 - 09/15/06 at 10:47:47
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I don't agree with a word of that!

IMHO Topalov needs to play dynamic irrational positions as much as possible. In technical positions Kramnik is stronger.

I don't at all agree about preparation either; Topalov's recent success, as he's said himself, is based on exceptional preparation and in particular having the total loyalty of a very strong regular second. This is more Topalov's strength than Kramnik's.

Nor do I recognise your description of 'many former Soviet champs'. The only one it could possibly be said to apply to is Botvinnik. And anyway it's a myth that Kramnik's a great match player; he lost to Shirov at a time when on the face of it he was the stronger, and he lost to someone not obviously stronger than him - two people in fact - in the PCA and FIDE cycles in 94-96. Kamsky and someone else, possibly Anand? And this at a time when he was already posting good tournament results and finishing ahead of Gazza from time to time.

Interesting Kramnik has Rublevsky on his team. Are we going to see some QGAs?

I don't reckon much to home advantage either; from what I gather Elista is a hell-hole and won't seem like home to either player. Although I suppose Kramnik might be a little more used to hellholes than Topalov, coming from Pfudz or whatever his birthplace is called, while Sofia might be a little more agreeable.
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #54 - 09/15/06 at 07:01:27
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I think Kramnik is favourite also due to home advantage. However I think and hope Topalov will win. To me it seems that Kramnik is someone who is good at matchplay and who is good in digging into certain positions, similar to many former Soviet champs. Topalov seems to me better at sensing the psychological moment for action and better at improvising. Of course we're talking margins here as I doubt if many people could guess the player just by looking at the game.
I think Topalov could use this to his advantage by varying the type of middle game every time. This is basically what Fischer and Karpov did against Spassky. However he has to prepare those very thoroughly as otherwise he may end up fooling himself as for example happened to Korchnoi against Karpov when he didnt play the French.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #53 - 09/15/06 at 05:40:09
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I go with Stormcrow. After this Match it will be time for some new Catalan books
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #52 - 09/15/06 at 04:16:06
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I will personally be shocked if Kramnik tries to repeat the Berlin Defense against Topalov. It was a great weapon to use in one major match, but that was six years and a lifetime of chess ago.  If Kramnik does choose the Berlin, I predict that Topalov will win the match.

On the other hand, Kramnik's handling of the QGA still remains fresh and I can see him employing the QGA well as Black.

I'm guessing that Kramnik will have found something interesting in one of the side variations of the Sicilian as Black, possibly in the Paulsen-Kan-Taimanov family. 

Topalov will probably try to win with 1.e4 and get interesting games in the QID complex as Black.  If Kramnik also plays 1.e4, then Toppy will almost certainly test out some Scheveningen/Najdorf type of line.   

I'm stating these as certainties even though they're just guesses.  Still, I hope it will make for some interesting responses.
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #51 - 09/14/06 at 17:29:38
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I think the Catalan will be seen as well.  Maybe by both players.
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #50 - 09/14/06 at 17:28:22
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I think Kramnik may throw out a surprise and give the QGA a go once or twice as black.
I feel Topalov would answer 1.Nf3 with 1...c5 or 1...d5 (Slav).
Kramnik will prepare vs. 1.Nf3 with 1...Nf6,2.c4 e6 going for QGD or quasi-Nimzo, or 2...c5 Symmetrical English.

Engaging in a Qc2 Nimzo or QID g3 discussion would be critical for the match and interesting to see who comes out on top.

I don't think Topalov will risk the KID, but I know he's thinking about it!

Every game could conceivably be a Qc2 Nimzo, but it is incredibly unlikely.  I would love it though!
  
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