Poll
Poll closed Question: Prediction?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Topalov wins    
  23 (29.1%)
Kramnik wins    
  37 (46.8%)
Draw    
  2 (2.5%)
Match gets cancelled    
  17 (21.5%)
other?...    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 79
« Created by: OstapBender on: 05/25/06 at 17:35:43 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Kramnik-Topalov match (Read 88865 times)
Uberdecker
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #664 - 10/06/06 at 18:09:58
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Well, along with Leko, he is perhaps the greatest expert in the world on holding the various inferior Sveshnikov endings, so the thought doesn't strike me as being all that outlandish.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #663 - 10/06/06 at 18:06:40
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A what???? When did Kramnik last play the Sicilian? Or did you mean in later games when he's White?
  
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Willempie
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #662 - 10/06/06 at 17:59:17
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I'll be bold and suggest we will see a sicilian. Or rather I hope we will see one.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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J-dog
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #661 - 10/06/06 at 16:34:22
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I get the impression that finding a theoretical edge is of secondary importance for these guys compared to getting positions that match their strengths, even if they are roughly equal (in white's case) or slightly worse (in Black's case).  Does anyone else get this feeling?  I always thought that opening preparation was all about finding a theoretical edge somewhere by coming up with fresh new (strong) ideas, but my opinion is starting to undergo refinements and modifications.  I'm a patzer without a deep understanding of the game, so maybe i'm just getting a basic education now!
  
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J-dog
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #660 - 10/06/06 at 16:28:30
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I definitely think Topalov will use the Nf3, e3 move order.  He could still try Bf4 or Bg5 instead of a4 in the QGA with fair prospects: it just seems to be a position more suitable for Topalov than Kramnik.  I'm very curious what he (Topa) has cooked up vs. the ultra-solid 4...Bf5 though.

There is a chance, however, that his team could have come up with something good in the main line Slav 6.Ne5 or the Dutch Slav 6.e3 now that they've had a few days to work on it.

Overall I'd say it's about 60% d4,c4,Nf3,e3 and 40% d4,c4,Nf3,Nc3.

I'd agree with John that e4 is probably out now.  Maybe not for Kramnik, though, if he falls behind!
  
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OstapBender
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #659 - 10/06/06 at 15:41:53
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I think we'll start off with a Slav where Topalov with stick with 4.e3.  The game will continue as a Semi-Slav and Kramnik, if allowed, will go for a Meran.  Topalov has no reason to avoid a Meran so this might be what we'll see.

I doubt we'll see the QGA transposition again; I think that was a one time thing.  

If the game starts off with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 then we won't see 4...Bf5 of course, but I suppose after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Kramnik could choose 4...Bf5 although I don't expect this.  Kramnik has a couple of games in this line from 1993-1995 but hasn't played it in over 10 years.
  

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IMJohnCox
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #658 - 10/06/06 at 14:42:03
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Anyway, changing the subject, how about some predictions for game nine and the rest of the match?

My predictions:

Game 9: Topalov to stick with d4. It’s surely too late to risk coming across a bomb in the Petroff now. Kramnik I think will stick to what he’s been doing. Topalov’s now pretty much tried all the early move orders against the Slav and indeed all the main tries. I think he might try the line from game 7 again, allowing the QGA. I’m not sure Kramnik was altogether convincing in game 7. Will Kramnik then play the tame 4…Bf5? I doubt it somehow if he didn’t before. Maybe 4…Bg4?

Overall: I think we’ve seen the end of the nonsense; Danailov’s got what he wanted.

Who’s going to win? I’m afraid I think Topalov will win and what’s more by +2. He is famous for gaining strength as events go on, and it’s clear that Kramnik is not playing well. Kramnik gathered his strength for a fantastic effort against Leko, but I don’t think he can do it again in these circumstances.

Anyone else?
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #657 - 10/06/06 at 14:11:19
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Remind me what Karpov got up to in 1974? I don't remember it.

1978 was bad, agreed, although I don't think it was as bad. It's not like Korchnoi was a saint.

But it's long past time parapsychologists were banned as part of delegations. I don't know what they are, but good guys don't seem to need them.

I don't think anyone is saying the psychological antics affect whether Topalov's a good player or not. We're saying we think they have made Kramnik play worse and thus we're not finding out who is truly the best player. To say nothing of the fact that the player who has won more games isn't leading the match.

'Overpressing' - well, he played too sharply in the opening for his mood or form, or whatever. Call it what you will.

Do lay off the Drawnik nonsense.
  
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OstapBender
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #656 - 10/06/06 at 14:07:27
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Keano wrote on 10/06/06 at 10:09:19:
TalJechin wrote on 10/06/06 at 09:52:52:

Admittedly, not an easy task after losing due to overpressing as white...  Undecided


This is a view of the game also put forward by John Cox. However - completely incorrect! Kramnik did not over-press in this game at all:

1) He was out prepared and went into an endgame he had not looked at.
2) The endgame, in my opinion better for Black, may be holdable, but he was comprehensibly outplayed between moves 30-40, in a fine performance by Topalov and some rather weak moves from Kramnik.

Over-Pressed? No - he lost control early and was outplayed - dont try and put a slant on it.


From Game 8 post-game press conference:

Quote:
Q: Could it be caused by complacency after three Black draws?

VK: I don’t believe I lost because I was complacent. On the contrary, I played aggressively today, trying to win. But the game developed unsuccessfully – the opponent was lucky to see all his pieces arriving at proper locations sharp on time. His position did not fall apart almost by a miracle. Then I overpressed, and ended up in an unpleasant endgame. In addition, I defended in the worst possible way. I considered the position drawish, but it wasn’t so simple. After 37…g3 I see no saving chances for White.

Maybe this settles the issue of whether Kramnik overpressed in game 8?
  

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micawber
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #655 - 10/06/06 at 13:53:01
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I am a bit puzzled by the strong connection several contributions make between the psychological warfare antics and the quality of Topalov as a chessplayer.
Based on the games so far I simply think Topalov has entertained us  better and shown more enterprising chess than Drawnik. His seventh game was the only reasonable good game so far.

If we apply the same standards we couldnt respect Karpov as a world champion. His psychological warfare against Korchnoi probably exceeded anything I have seen so far. This applies both to the 1974 and the 1978 match. Still I respect him as a chessplayer and a legitimate world champion, though I can't respect his attitude when not behind a chessboard.

The statement that only the Bulgarians will be able to respect Topalov as a world champion is rather beside the mark (I am not a Bulgarian).   
As for the eighth game I cant read it as Kramnik overpressing, but rather as Kramniks position gradually worsening. There where perhaps some points where he could have played better, but this was a difficult endgame, and Topalovs judgement and/or preparation were simply superior.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #654 - 10/06/06 at 13:08:40
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I was wondering actually when and how Kramnik came to hear about that. Surely they wouldn't have told him before the game; maybe someone showed it to him just before the conference.

It would be better if he could ignore it, but it's not that easy. TopNotch is right; the reason this stuff is so incendiary is it's so easy and so effective (and so damaging to the game). And you're right too that it is more effective against Kramnik than it would be against Topalov.

That's why it's so important Kramnik wins; once it's shown this stuff works there'll be more of it.
  
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Keano
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #653 - 10/06/06 at 12:57:45
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Taljechin - I know where you are coming from trying to say a player has responsibility for his Managers actions, but the analogies you use are misleading for one reason - Danailov however much distasteful his accusations have been, and potentially damaging for the game, has done nothing illegal. It is well known Topalov leaves all non-chess matters to Danailov, I agree if Danailov was breaking the law then Topalov would also be liable - all I am doing is pointing out that Topalov is just playing chess here - he has always implicitly trusted Danailov in the past and it has served him well - in this case I believe it is not serving him well but thats another story.

Danailov was deliberately trying to give Kramnik another distraction to think about, I am pretty certain about that. See my earlier comments for how I think the Kramnik team should handle this and how they have really handled this the wrong way. Kramnik actually entertained the question about the Fritz percentages in his last press conference and started making comparisons which showed that he had actually been thinking about this - the tactic succeded when it should not, another thing to occupy Kramniks head with.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #652 - 10/06/06 at 12:34:41
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Correction - in game 4 e3 came before ...e6, so Bg5 was already ruled out. But still the meran is sharp enough.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #651 - 10/06/06 at 12:31:32
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Keano wrote on 10/06/06 at 10:51:13:
Taljechin --
Point 1 on the game: You are not seriously trying to say Kramnik intended to go into this endgame? Its amazing but though ...Qa5 is a novelty it is an obvious move but I suspect after ...Be7 Kramnik was already out of his preparation the way the game went. Then again Topalov is not a Semi-Slav man, so I expect the Kramnik team did not spend much time here. There was one last chance to avoid the R+P v 2 pieces scenario (b3) but its not pleasant to play with the Knight stuck on a4 so this would be an admission of defeat. So let me see, you think he was trying to "squash" Topalov in this line .... an interesting assessment Smiley

Point 2 - you´re making the same analogy again...



Point 2 - and you fail to understand it again. Morally, the same laws should apply for all. But I see there's no point in discussing that with you. You probably think Tonya Harding was totally innocent as well...


Point 1 - obviously I don't play the Slav or QG, so my first impression was indeed that he sacrificed. (As otherwise something like 14.Nxd7 Nxd7 15.b3 seems safer to me.) And maybe he did? As ...Qa5 was played on the next move in the stemgame from '74 - and I noticed that in '92 Schach-Archiv recommended "11.dxc5 Qa5!" so it's certainly not an unknown move in that kind of position. So I'd guess that Kramnik either underestimated Qa5 or else his state of mind after the recent provocation was so upset that he wasn't thinking clearly.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #650 - 10/06/06 at 12:02:18
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Sure, British players dive. What's your point? Although actually here too there is a distinction: the full-on, no-contact dive is still reviled widely here, although you do see it. Owen himself is adamant that he goes down when touched even if he doesn't have to, rather than planning to dive, and I've never seen anything to prove he's not telling the truth. We have much worse divers than Owen - Andy Johnson, for one.

Keano: if you say so; I don't remember it. But hell - Manchester United players, what would you expect?

Maradona: great player; cheating scumbag. No contradiction there. (Interesting how drugs though are basically acceptable in football. Wonder if that'll ever change)
  
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