Poll
Poll closed Question: Prediction?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Topalov wins    
  23 (29.1%)
Kramnik wins    
  37 (46.8%)
Draw    
  2 (2.5%)
Match gets cancelled    
  17 (21.5%)
other?...    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 79
« Created by: OstapBender on: 05/25/06 at 17:35:43 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Kramnik-Topalov match (Read 89145 times)
Markovich
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #679 - 10/07/06 at 12:26:37
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After 17...Rad8 it's an interesting position.  I like White's space and his bishops, but there is the immediate problem with the d-pawn.  I'll be very interested to see what Topalov does.  I was going to predict 18. Na4, but there, he's played it.  On this basis, I'm a genius.
  

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chessy
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #678 - 10/07/06 at 12:25:17
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shreadder gives plus 1.03 for Topalov
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #677 - 10/07/06 at 12:23:14
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/06/06 at 14:42:03:
Anyway, changing the subject, how about some predictions for game nine and the rest of the match?

My predictions:

Game 9: Topalov to stick with d4. It’s surely too late to risk coming across a bomb in the Petroff now. Kramnik I think will stick to what he’s been doing. Topalov’s now pretty much tried all the early move orders against the Slav and indeed all the main tries. I think he might try the line from game 7 again, allowing the QGA. I’m not sure Kramnik was altogether convincing in game 7. Will Kramnik then play the tame 4…Bf5?

Wow.  Good call, John!
  

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Antillian
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #676 - 10/07/06 at 12:20:39
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Any thoughts on Game 9 so far? Looks like it is going to be an interesting game.
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #675 - 10/07/06 at 06:28:52
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Frankly I am quite curious about the tie-breaks.
Will Kramnik still spent as much time off board and in the restroom?
I guess we'll find at out at least if walks to the restroom are indeed connected
to a medical condition?  Smiley


Meanwhile. It seems to has escaped most people that the
new world champion cycle has eh ...... gone down the toilet.
The candidate matches that were to take place next month have been cancelled.
They might be replaced by a tournament in.......... Elista!
So the Fide has added another notch to its list of dubious decisions. Angry
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #674 - 10/07/06 at 05:01:48
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/06/06 at 14:42:03:
I’m afraid I think Topalov will win and what’s more by +2. He is famous for gaining strength as events go on, and it’s clear that Kramnik is not playing well. Kramnik gathered his strength for a fantastic effort against Leko, but I don’t think he can do it again in these circumstances.


Wow one day I was not around and so much of activity in one thread! For the sake of record, Danailov put a bug in my stomach! Grin

No John, I don’t think we have seen the end of Kramnik. At the very least we can see a tie break. That is sufficient to assume, morally, Kramnik is the champion and not that Topaloo.

As much as I would like to disagree with Keano, I guess he is right. Topaloo out played Kramnik. Today morning I spent about half an hour with the game and I thought two knights for a rook and pawn continuation was the best Kramnik had. If there is any other drawing continuation, I would like to know. Topaloo, to my understanding, played a better game and deserved to win. I think, touting a Topaloo win at this point is obnoxious. That’s my opinion. That doesn’t mean Topaloo did not deserve to win.

  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #673 - 10/07/06 at 04:50:21
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Kramnik does have a couple of Whites left.  Based on the Leko match, he is likely to play 'normal chess' for the next two games, but the real question for me is whether he will make an all-out effort to win with black and white in the final two games, or if he is content to take things to tiebreaks.

It would be nice to see things decided before then.  I haven't had time to peruse the analysis of the last game, but my impression is that Topalov was simply better prepared and better evaluated the resulting positions.  A solid chess game -- I hope we can see a few more of those.

TopNotch wrote on 10/07/06 at 02:22:24:

BTW I thought they were supposed to play today 06/Oct/2006, was a rest day called?   


The revised schedule is as follows:

October 3 -  rest day

October 4 -  Game 7 Topalov-Kramnik

October 5 -  Game 8 Kramnik-Topalov

October 6 -  rest day

October 7 -  Game  9 Topalov-Kramnik

October 8 -  Game 10 Kramnik-Topalov

October 9 -  Rest day

October 10 - Game 11 Topalov-Kramnik

October 11 - Rest day

October 12 - Game 12 Kramnik - Topalov

October 13 - Tiebreaks and Closing Ceremony
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #672 - 10/07/06 at 02:22:24
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OstapBender wrote on 10/06/06 at 19:23:52:
Sicilian was part of Kramnik's repertoire at least as recently as 2004 - mainly Sveshnikov recently I think, but also Najdorf and Classical (iirc) not too long ago.


The real question to be asked here is when was Kramnik last successful with the Sicilian. Granted if he needs to win as black to make up for the gifted point, there maybe no choice but to play it, who knows. 

But doesn't Kramnik have a couple White's left? 

In any case its all academic as I predict that should Kramnik lead by one point going into the last game, Topalov's team will hatch some plot to abort the match and have it ratified by Fide. Nothing would surprise me anymore.

Maybe in the long run some good will come of all this.

Topalot Smiley  

BTW I thought they were supposed to play today 06/Oct/2006, was a rest day called?   
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #671 - 10/07/06 at 01:56:19
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MarinFan wrote on 10/06/06 at 11:00:20:
I agree that Kramnik looked worse in the endgame from the very beginning of it. Watching the game on ICC was amazed that some GM's thought that white could be better, maybe explained by there lack of focus when not there own games, who knows.


Forgive me if I seem to be following all my own posts without giving anyone else a chance to respond, but I haven't long got in and so I'm just making up for lost time.

Intuitively looking at the position I thought white was a bit better early on as his rooks seemed active and a pair of knights are not considered nearly as dangerous as a pair of bishops or even a bishop and knight in such situations. But intuition is intuition and it often has to be validated by concrete analysis, the position to my eye was quite deceptive, and Topalov's apparent deep preparation here must be acknowledged. It turned out that the activity of Kramnik's rooks was only illusory and lacking clear targets failed to restrict black to passive defence allowing Topalov to unravel like a coiled spring.

I don't see why it is inconceivable that a GM or IM would have thought White's chances a bit better at the beginning of that ending.

Topper Smiley      
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #670 - 10/07/06 at 01:30:10
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Keano wrote on 10/06/06 at 10:51:13:
Taljechin --
Point 1 on the game: You are not seriously trying to say Kramnik intended to go into this endgame? Its amazing but though ...Qa5 is a novelty it is an obvious move


It didn't look obvious at all to me but rather dubious, of course after the complications clarified, Topalov's judgement proved to be correct.

Maybe you are right after all that Qa5 is an obvious move to anyone, but its a bit odd that such an obvious move hasn't been tested before.

No one could argue with the mating attack at the end though, which was particularly striking, although  given the misadventures of game two maybe Kramnik should have made him prove it.  Grin 

Tops Smiley

  

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TopNotch
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #669 - 10/07/06 at 01:00:33
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Keano wrote on 10/06/06 at 10:01:25:
You miss the point - he is not even considering Danailov´s actions in my opinion, all his energy is solely on the games - this would be typical Topalov strategy. For him to consider his managers actions is only a distraction at this stage - put yourselves in the players situation, it is hard enough to deal with playing at this level without having to worry about other stuff - that it is the trap Kramnik is falling into.

PS - comparisons with mafia bosses and dictators is over the top, Danailovs actions I condemn in strongest posible terms, but you cannot put the action of someone accusing his mans opponent of cheating in the same league as mafia bosses and dictators. We have seen these tactics before in World ch matches, it is not nice or gentlemanly, but unfortunately it happens. The Kramnik team need to deal with the situation better.


No Keano it is you that have missed the point completely, and I think that you have allowed adulation for Topalov's playing style to cloud your judgement. For the record I much prefer Topalov's playing style too, but that is not what is in question here, and I find your simplistic rationalisations ludicrous.  

A) Topalov by not putting the muzzle on his employee Danialov and or forcing him to apologise is implicit approval - FULL STOP.

B) In fact, rather than stop it, Topalov allowed Danialov to continue his obscene and extremely distasteful attacks.

C)This is perhaps the most important point to realise and accept. Now listen carefully - It was not Topalov/Danailov's accusation of cheating that really derailed Kramnik, it upset him yes, but that could have been overcome. What could not have been overcome however was the clear outrageous and illegal actions of the appeals committee who later were forced to resign in disgrace. These actions led by force to Kramnik being unable to play game 5, and then incredibly being forfeited at a critical point when a time out should have been called to restore the situation.

D) Kramnik chose to continue despite being robbed of a point, while Topalov on the otherhand said he would not have continued the match if the cheating accusation appeal laid by his employee Danailov was not upheld. Therefore Topalov by his stance was ensuring that one way or the other he woud retain his fide title, either by default or by nefarious means.

E) If you persued the Chessbase site today, and read the open letter by GM Bartlomiej Macieja, you would realise that the forfeit of game 5 could have been reversed and it should have been, there is precedent for it.

F) The main reason why Topalov didn't field questions regarding the Fritz accusations is not so that he could devote all his time to preparation, thats crap - It's because he's embarrassed and cannot defend and indefensible position.

Sadly it is very difficult for many to understand a situation or empathise with an aggrieved party unless they have suffered a similiar fate, and that is truly unfortunate.

This must rank as one of the most contemptable World Championship matches in recent memory, not so much for the outrageous accusation laid but for how it was dealt with.

Lets hope that Kramnik can somehow rebound from all this and take the title, or else I fear that the future of organised chess is grim indeed. On reflection it maybe better for chess as an organised sport to hit rock bottom, as experience tells me that things usually have to get much worse before they get better.

Its amazing what people are so willing to accept once its done. I am curious to see how all this will eventually play out, and I don't mean on the board, its way beyond that now.

Toppy Smiley    
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #668 - 10/07/06 at 00:32:46
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Another slav suits me just fine! I've just recently begun to play the slav and I can't think of better motivation to examine theory than getting to see world class games 2 or 3 days each week Smiley I'm really curious to see if Topalov comes out pressing hard or not. To be totally honest, the only result that would disappoint me at this point is if the match got (re-) canceled. Isn't great chess what we all want? If we have one side to really root for, so much the better!

On a very minor side note, I'd like to point out that Bulgaria was essentially a province of the USSR until 1989. The eastern mindset really is quite different from the western, so I'm not entirely sure if Topalov is as much the "boss" of his team as we might think. It's very possible that he and danailov share an equal role, being ruled by sponsors, etc. From '46 to at least '89 the country was communist/marxist. Citizens, regardless of how remarkable their talents might be, were the "property" of the state and used for the advancement of that state. I'm not trying to absolve anyone of their sins, but I hope we're at least open to the idea that the Bulgarian team hierarchy may not fit our western stereotypes.

SL
  
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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #667 - 10/06/06 at 23:44:16
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I am surprised that anyone thinks Kramnik would play a Sveshnikov at this stage in the match.   
It is certainly possible, but I thought it was assumed that Kramnik would play the Petroff against 1.e4

He was successful with it in his Leko match and it doesn't tend to get nearly as 'messy' as a Sveshnikov.
Also, isn't Raetsky is on Kramnik's team?  I'm sure they're very well prepared.
I also think Topalov hasn't been outplayed as in the opening yet, so why switch?

However, I would like to see 1.e4 played by Topalov since I think it suits his style better than 1.d4, although he is very strong with either of course.  Four games to go!
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #666 - 10/06/06 at 19:23:52
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Sicilian was part of Kramnik's repertoire at least as recently as 2004 - mainly Sveshnikov recently I think, but also Najdorf and Classical (iirc) not too long ago.

I don't see a compelling reason for Topalov to go with 1.e4, however, with 1.d4 working just fine (at least as far as opening is concerned).
  

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Re: Kramnik-Topalov match
Reply #665 - 10/06/06 at 18:17:17
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IMJohnCox wrote on 10/06/06 at 18:06:40:
A what???? When did Kramnik last play the Sicilian? Or did you mean in later games when he's White?

Dont know when he last played it, but he is very well versed in the sicilian and I think if Topalov opens 1e4 he might smell a rat due to yesterdays preparation. After all this wasnt a line many would expect Kramnik to play yet Topalov came with the novelty (and a psycholgical very good one). I am fairly confident that Kramnik didnt just prepare Petrovs and Berlins against e4.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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