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Question: Prediction?


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Topalov wins 23 (29.1%) Kramnik wins 37 (46.8%) Draw 2 (2.5%) Match gets cancelled 17 (21.5%) other?... 0 (0.0%) Total votes: 79 « Created by: OstapBender on: 05/25/06 at 17:35:43 »

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Kramnik-Topalov match (Read 88786 times)

TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1354 - 11/08/06 at 22:30:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	I appreciate your point Tal, no doubt the Petroff is a good and sound defence and makes a good addition to a well rounded repertoire. Nevertheless its not very good as one's sole 1...e5 defence, in otherwords a player can choose 2...Nc6 exclusively and be perfectly happy, I don't think one can say the same for 2...Nf6. I have not checked my database to confirm this, but it would surprise me if any strong player used the Petroff as his sole 1...e5 defence. Conclusion: The Petroff compliments a repertoire well but as a stand alone weapon its wanting. Topper Postscript:- Howz that Antoshin going Tal, ive been recently paying a lot of attention to it, in particular the what I like to call the Scalcione variation.

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1353 - 11/08/06 at 10:24:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Any French player (a self-selecting group, of course) will tell you 3 exd5 is not particularly drawish. I had pretty close to 100% with Black against it when I used to play the French, and I think most would say the same. The Petroff ending may be different. I looked up Kramnik with the Petroff and, interestingly, he scores very poorly. 80 or so below his ELO over 100 odd games.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1352 - 11/08/06 at 10:03:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: No need for humble pie, I still firmly maintain that the Petroff is drawish and a poor choice for black if wants winning chances. Of course a particular match or tournament situation could make it an excellent practical weapon against an opponent who needs to win, however for everday use you can't really expect more than a draw, White need only exchange Queens and thats that: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qe2. While pondering the above variation, I stumbled across the unusual line 3...Qe7 and noticed in my database a strong player that uses it regularly. Remarkably it is far more durable than one would think at first sight and contains quite a few subtleties. All in all I would say the Petroff is a good choice against ambitious White players, but lacks the flexibility to be used as ones sole 1...e5 defence. I mean who wants the position as Black against an opponent two or three hundred rating points below you. It's 'drawish but not a draw' like many defences. The problem is rather that this is a move order for prearranged draws. A quick check in the base, "both +2400, the last 6 years resulted" in 210 games, and 184 were drawn well before move 25 (the large majority between move 8 and 12). In the remaining 26 games, all longer than 25 moves, no less than 11 were decided (7-4 to white). So, I dont see why black should abandon a good defence because white might play for a draw - the French has the same 'problem' and in the end the lower rated usually loses anyway... Besides, with the Sofia rules spreading (Gibraltar seems to adopt them net year, for example) - would white really be inclined to go for 5.Qe2 - knowing that neither player is allowed to offer a draw?


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1351 - 11/07/06 at 22:46:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 11/07/06 at 08:50:23: PS - the 3...Qe7 line I know nothing about, what strong players like this? It does'nt avoid the "boring" endgame does it? The player I had in mind that uses this line fairly regularly is V. Afromeev (2500+). The ending is less common in this line, and if it does it occur its usually in a more favourable form for Black. Wow, chess sure is vast - So many wrinkles so little time. Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1350 - 11/07/06 at 08:50:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch - I was not referring to you in particular! But now it comes up I understand your aversion to that particular ending, although my own opinion is that if you are playing a player 200-300 points below you as you say and they go for this line, you should still be able to win. Lasker called this endgame "a complicated endgame with all of the minor pieces on the board" in his Manual of Chess. All that said, I have no intention of playing the Petroff myself! Maybe I I am talking myself into it now... although maybe only as a back-up defence PS - the 3...Qe7 line I know nothing about, what strong players like this? It doesnt avoid the "boring" endgame does it?


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1349 - 11/06/06 at 22:40:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 11/06/06 at 12:11:07: Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/05/06 at 08:20:28: I know this is continuing the digression of the thread into the Russian/Petroff Defense, but here goes... I agree completely with alumbrado that below 2200 FIDE and even below 2400 FIDE, the Russian defense is not only completely playable, but even a dangerous weapon in the right hands. I've seen numerous games in which White thought the draw would materialise out of thin air only to be crushed in the late middlegame or early endgame. I haven't actually done this myself, but I bet a data search of Petrovs lasting more than 20 (or even 15) moves would show a fairly high percent of decisive results. If I'm right, it would show that the fighting spirit of the players more than the choice of openings is the best determinant of results. I agree completely, in fact I would say it can be played for a win above 2400 level also - The Petroff has a reputation as a "boring" opening and as "drawish", I think it will not be long before these old-fashioned theorists will be forced to eat humble-pie. The current trend, with Shirov paving the way especially, is turning up quite a number of "interesting" games, and a lot of them quite interesting for Black I am a 1.e4 player and I am still working on a system I am completely happy with against this awkward Petroff defence. No need for humble pie, I still firmly maintain that the Petroff is drawish and a poor choice for black if wants winning chances. Of course a particular match or tournament situation could make it an excellent practical weapon against an opponent who needs to win, however for everday use you can't really expect more than a draw, White need only exchange Queens and thats that: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Qe2. While pondering the above variation, I stumbled across the unusual line 3...Qe7 and noticed in my database a strong player that uses it regularly. Remarkably it is far more durable than one would think at first sight and contains quite a few subtleties. All in all I would say the Petroff is a good choice against ambitious White players, but lacks the flexibility to be used as ones sole 1...e5 defence. I mean who wants the position as Black against an opponent two or three hundred rating points below you. Now I would like to see some more activity in The Philidor - Antoshin threads, as I suspect there is much to be discussed in the critical line: Be7 6. Bf4 O-O 7. Qd2 a6 8. O-O-O b5!? The big question now is can White maintain an advantage here? Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1348 - 11/06/06 at 17:02:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	I came across this site today: http://www.danailov-before-and-after.com/

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1347 - 11/06/06 at 12:11:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/05/06 at 08:20:28: I know this is continuing the digression of the thread into the Russian/Petroff Defense, but here goes... I agree completely with alumbrado that below 2200 FIDE and even below 2400 FIDE, the Russian defense is not only completely playable, but even a dangerous weapon in the right hands. I've seen numerous games in which White thought the draw would materialise out of thin air only to be crushed in the late middlegame or early endgame. I haven't actually done this myself, but I bet a data search of Petrovs lasting more than 20 (or even 15) moves would show a fairly high percent of decisive results. If I'm right, it would show that the fighting spirit of the players more than the choice of openings is the best determinant of results. I agree completely, in fact I would say it can be played for a win above 2400 level also - The Petroff has a reputation as a "boring" opening and as "drawish", I think it will not be long before these old-fashioned theorists will be forced to eat humble-pie. The current trend, with Shirov paving the way especially, is turning up quite a number of "interesting" games, and a lot of them quite interesting for Black I am a 1.e4 player and I am still working on a system I am completely happy with against this awkward Petroff defence.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1346 - 11/06/06 at 10:57:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Interesting Black does quite a lot better at 2500+. I would have thought that was the reverse of normal, no?


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1345 - 11/05/06 at 21:04:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Almost 20 000 games lasting longer than 19 moves score 43/31/26 %. Both players having ELO <2501 show 41/35/24 %. Looks quite normal to me.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1344 - 11/05/06 at 08:20:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	I know this is continuing the digression of the thread into the Russian/Petroff Defense, but here goes... I agree completely with alumbrado that below 2200 FIDE and even below 2400 FIDE, the Russian defense is not only completely playable, but even a dangerous weapon in the right hands. I've seen numerous games in which White thought the draw would materialise out of thin air only to be crushed in the late middlegame or early endgame. I haven't actually done this myself, but I bet a data search of Petrovs lasting more than 20 (or even 15) moves would show a fairly high percent of decisive results. If I'm right, it would show that the fighting spirit of the players more than the choice of openings is the best determinant of results.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1343 - 10/28/06 at 18:17:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	alumbrado wrote on 10/28/06 at 13:48:46: TopNotch wrote on 10/26/06 at 22:51:15: For an aspiring amateur player trying to develop his overall chess skills, particularly in the open games, the Petroff/Petrov has little to offer Toppy Sorry TN but that's piffle. Take a look at some of Frank Marshall's Petroff games and you will learn something about open games. Maybe its piffle but I really do think that below master level one would be better served and learn more by first studying the positions arising after 2...Nc6, and then only later moving to 2...Nf6 if one desires. To me that's an easier and more systematic transition than the other way round. I will take a look at Marshall's games with the Petroff when time permits. Regards, Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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alumbrado God Member Offline Esse quam videri bonus malebo Posts: 1418 Location: London Joined: 02/17/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1342 - 10/28/06 at 13:48:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 10/26/06 at 22:51:15: For an aspiring amateur player trying to develop his overall chess skills, particularly in the open games, the Petroff/Petrov has little to offer Toppy Sorry TN but that's piffle. Take a look at some of Frank Marshall's Petroff games and you will learn something about open games.

	If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1341 - 10/26/06 at 22:51:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Nietzsche PS - I recently emailed both Gambit and Everyman about whether they planned on producing a book on the Petroff for club level players (i.e. 'Starting Out' or 'Chess Explained'). Both replied that it isn't commerically feasible. I think this lack of coverage on the club level makes it a pretty good choice for black -- very few amateurs have a well thought out reply. I think Topalov failed to find an adequate edge in his preparation and thus avoided allowing it -- hence, SlavFest 2006. Sharp, Unsound, Off-Beat, Unclear - These are the kind of Opening choices that sell better at the lower levels. I can't really envisage a Petroff repertoire book aimed at club players having much mass appeal, and with good reason. For an aspiring amateur player trying to develop his overall chess skills, particularly in the open games, the Petroff/Petrov has little to offer, unless of course he already plays 2.Nc6 and is just adding to his repertoire. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1340 - 10/26/06 at 09:21:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Antillian wrote on 10/14/06 at 10:30:15: Quote: RE: "maybe Everyman should write a book on the elephant in the corner of the room during this match - the Petroff. Maybe this opening won the match without making a move?!" PS - I recently emailed both Gambit and Everyman about whether they planned on producing a book on the Petroff for club level players (i.e. 'Starting Out' or 'Chess Explained'). Both replied that it isn't commerically feasible. I think this lack of coverage on the club level makes it a pretty good choice for black -- very few amateurs have a well thought out reply. I think Topalov failed to find an adequate edge in his preparation and thus avoided allowing it -- hence, SlavFest 2006. A few years ago, after the publication of Emms Play the Open Games as Black, I emailed Gambit to suggest that they publish for Black on how to deal with all of those annoying lines where White opens 1 d4 and fails to follow up with 2 c4. His reply was that he did not think a book like that was feasible. Interestingly enough, Everyman has now come out with exactly the same book. Dealing with 1. d4 Deviatuions Sometimes, one pubisher sees value in a book idea that another pubisher might disregard. Gambit and Everyman, though they are the most prolific, are not the only publishers around. Chessbase is releasing an opening trainer DVD on the Petroff by Kasimdzhanov.

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1339 - 10/16/06 at 11:33:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, that's right. I don't know where Kramnik-Radjabov stands (assuming Topalov-Radjabov is off, as Danailov seems to assume, and indeed assuming also Radjabov's backers are willing to challenge Kramnik also). It's not clear to me Kramnik would accept, although frankly why not? You'd be pretty confident of him beating Radjabov. And I don't know what would happen, either according to the regulations or in practice, if Topalov's gang get their challenge in first.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1338 - 10/16/06 at 11:09:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	So was the (presumably now abandoned) Topalov - Radjabov match scheduled under these rules? If so - you´d think Radjabov´s sponsors would now pursue a match with Kramnik, no? Kramnik could be a busy man between now and Mexico - on the other hand if he wins the matches he wont be complaining since he will be earning a nice living!


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1337 - 10/16/06 at 10:40:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	1.5 million euros, I believe, Keano. I too noticed that Danailov says ‘ex-champions’. I had thought it was active 2700 players, but if any old ex-champion can do it, can one rule out Gazza feeling inclined to have a go? I’d have thought one probably could, but you never know….


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1336 - 10/16/06 at 10:16:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	Very interesting Willempie - so if I understand right a 2700+ player who can find a sponsor to put up the required match fees and payments to FIDE etc (both presumably ludicrously high amounts) can challenge the holder there and then? This is very interesting, because under these rules we could see a Kasparov comeback - a sponsor would surely be forthcoming!? Or for that matter Bobby Fischer himself may deem to reclaim his title after he plays Karpov It is an interesting system since it generates money for the World Champ and for FIDE, and might also provide a few interesting matches on the way. I´m not so sure about the schedule of having another World Ch tournament every year though - maybe every second year!? All in all I have mixed feelings since I love the history of the World Ch and the candidates matches etc. On the other hand time moves on and maybe it is time for a change since the last ten years or so the World ch system has been in complete chaos.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1335 - 10/16/06 at 06:51:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	If I am not entirely mistaken the tournament in Mexico will be annually (not necessarily there though) and will decide the WC. Every 2700+ player can then challenge the WC in that year provided he has the funds etc. The winner of that match will then be WC AND take over the spot for next years Wch. So if for example Anand wins in MExico city and then proceeds to lose a match to Kramnik, he is then out of the next year's WC.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1334 - 10/16/06 at 05:44:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.danailov-before-and-after.com/

	CastleRock
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1333 - 10/16/06 at 05:35:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	As per the terms, Kramnik is bound to play in Mexico City and that’s what he will do. Kramnik has been very consistent. If the terms are beneficial to him he might use it regardless of what is morally correct. He’s not a saint. But, he has never gone back on his words, unlike FIDE. Remember the Kasparov rematch controversy? Rematch was excluded in the contract and he used it to his advantage asking Kasparov to qualify. He was technically correct, though Kasparov deserved a rematch. So, I have no doubt that Kramnik will play, as it is. However, if FIDE tries to create a slot for Topalov, then he is not honour bound to play. Only the winner of Elista has the right to compete in Mexico City. In case, FIDE tries to accommodate Topalov, I would not want him to play. Instead, he should insist that he defends the title in a match against the winner of Mexico City. That would be nice and continue the match tradition.

	CastleRock
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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1332 - 10/16/06 at 05:12:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	RE: "If anyone other than Kramnik wins in Mexico City (my money's on Anand), then Topalov will declare that he has a right to face that other player in a match. That's a good point Smyslov_Fan. I would LOVE to see a Kramnik-Anand match instead of another Topalov match. It would nice to see a Championship with two gentlemen instead of the infantile nonsense we just saw. RE: "We will find the money and will demand that the match take place in Sofia. We will even propose the date March 3rd, 2007” and "will insist on a return game". Did anyone else find it funny that Danailov is "demanding" and "insisting"? They demand the place and 'propose' the date, and even mention that Kramnik should be stripped of his title if he won't comply. Maybe Danailov could tell Kramnik which openings to play as well? What a jackass. Nietzsche ps - did Danailov forget about that Radjabov match scheduled for April 2007?

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1331 - 10/16/06 at 02:52:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	The Mexico City World Championship Tournament helps one person beyond all others: Veselein Topalov. If Kramnik plays, he has to win or else the world title is confused again. If he does win, Topalov will still clamor for a re-match, this time against a very *very* tired Kramnik. If Kramnik doesn't play, then he's lost the moral high ground of keeping within his contract, despite the ridiculous requirement that Kramnik plays. If anyone other than Kramnik wins in Mexico City (my money's on Anand), then Topalov will declare that he has a right to face that other player in a match. Topalov will have a chance to beat that player, even if it is Anand. In all cases, Topalov will be rested and be able to take notes on the tournament. He will use the time to recuperate and prepare to win several major tournaments in a row. The whole time, he can also start to rebuild his image in the chess world. This is a win-win situation for Topalov, and a lose-lose situation for Kramnik. The only way Kramnik wins is if he wins the tournament and even FIDE agrees he's earned a year off.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1330 - 10/15/06 at 17:08:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	chessy wrote on 10/15/06 at 10:01:29: I would be intressted in interviews after the match with Topalov or Kramnik. Does anybody know a link with a interview. (i know only chessbase, fide page) But maybe bulgarien newspaper etc. thx For links to Topalov (and Danailov) statements, you can try http://www.veselintopalov.net/ although probably everything there will also be cited on the Chessbase site. From this site (and repeated by Chessbase) we have: Quote: Match Kramnik Topalov in March 2007? · Oct 15, 05:20 PM Silvio Danailov: “FIDE regulations allow every world champion that has lost the title to challenge the title holder. The total prize fund is 1,5 million dollars. We will find this money and will request the game to take place in Sofia. We will offer an exact date, 3rd of March 2007.” The press conference took place in “Grand Hotel”, Sofia. The date suggestion is not a random pick. It is the national holiday of Bulgaria. Earlier today Veselin Topalov said in an interview, “Elista is a great place with very nice people. The organization was perfect. The problems that appeared could have occurred at any other place.” He also said that he is not sure if he will be invited to participate in Mexico, and that a rematch depends on current FIDE regulations and changes that may come in the future. and from http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=71178 Quote: Bulgaria's Topalov Wants the World Title Back, Challenges Kramnik Sports: 15 October 2006, Sunday. Bulgaria's chess king Vesselin Topalov, who lost the title of world's best chess grandmaster with a narrow defeat against Russia's Vladimir Kramnik, will insist on a return game, his manager announced in Sofia. The regulations of the World chess federation (FIDE) allows every former world champion to challenge his opponent should he secure the prize of EUR 1,5 M, Silvio Danailov told journalists on Sunday. According to Danailov the return match could take place in Sofia, on March 3, 2007. Danailov suspects Kramnik will not accept the offer, which will force FIDE to strip him of the world's only chess king title. Kramnik won the title of world's best chess grandmaster defeating Vesselin Topalov on the fourth game of a tiebreak. The title was settled Friday by "rapid-play" and then "blitz" chess - shorter games relying on instinct as much as calculation, which ended 2.5:1.5. For the past three weeks, chess fans have been gripped by the most dramatic world championship match for the last twenty years. The match was held in Elista, the capital of the Russian republic of Kalmykia. Topalov and Kramnik inspired reminiscences of Kasparov and Karpov, who first started the schism in the chess world back in 1993. The rematch demand comes as no surprise, nor does the typical Danailov snipe suggesting Kramnik will refuse the rematch and be stripped of his title.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1329 - 10/15/06 at 10:01:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	I would be intressted in interviews after the match with Topalov or Kramnik. Does anybody know a link with a interview. (i know only chessbase, fide page) But maybe bulgarien newspaper etc. thx


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cherry YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 10/11/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1328 - 10/15/06 at 00:54:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	oh, lol, i see 'WC' can mean different things these days, anyway i only use 'wc' to mean world championship


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1327 - 10/14/06 at 18:15:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Kramnik should get the match played in a WC Cute. How about this? from http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt/2006/10/kramniktopalov_tiebreaks.htm Quote: Kramnik wins game four and the match! It's finally over! Unified champion! And, in a final flourish, instead of going for a last bathroom break, Kramnik whips it out right there and piddles all over Danailov and Topalov's shoes! Maybe we gotta draw a line somewhere on this bathroom humor...
	« Last Edit: 10/14/06 at 19:32:28 by OstapBender »
	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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cherry YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 10/11/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1326 - 10/14/06 at 17:07:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	sorry, maybe i was unclear with that comment. i just meant, kram should try to get the world championship back like the way they used to play them, with matches, not tournaments.


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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1325 - 10/14/06 at 16:52:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	The FIDE has allready messed things up. The candidate matches to eliminate half of the candidates will not go through. Instead there probably will be an elimination tournament in ..... Elista! So there is room to include Topalov in the cycle after all..... Further I would not be surprised if several candidates would choose not to participate, being cheated out of the proposed matches... As for the format of a round robin tournament instead of a match. Well I used to prefer matches, but as long as Kramnik is around I wouldnt mind using the Tourament format now and again.. "Kramnik should get the WC played in a match" should this not be read the other way round: Kramnik should get the match played in a WC


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cherry YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 10/11/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1324 - 10/14/06 at 15:59:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	yes i agree, topa should go in mexico tournament, kramnik go out, winner of tournament plays kramnik for wc, but fide has got another set up to make a disaster happen. Trouble is, if kram does go in it, and he doesn't win, won't a lot of people still see him as 'real wc', and won't kram himself probably have this idea. It is just a disaster waiting to happen.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1323 - 10/14/06 at 15:52:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Having the winner of the Mexico tournament play a match against Kramnik for the World Championship would be preferable to the current arrangement where the tournament itself will determine the World Champion. Take Kramnik out, put Topalov in, and if Topalov wins we would have a Kramnik-Topalov re-match. This would be great ... ... but it's not going to happen this way. FIDE has already messed things up. The only question is whether they will be able to botch things even worse somehow.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Mortal Games God Member Offline Posts: 587 Joined: 07/24/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1322 - 10/14/06 at 15:45:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, you are right cherry, Topalov is a brilliant player but not the only one on the chess scene and I prefer to see brilliant players who are sportsman outside the board too, like Federer in tennis is a great example and the end of conflicts that were typical of certain chess champions of the past. With Aronian, Carlsen, Ponomariov, Gelfand, Kamsky, Grischuk or Ivanchuk who haven´t participated in San Luis tournament, the Mexico tournament would be much better a much more stronger tournament and for me the right way is for Kramnik not to participate and wait for the winner to a match after this event, because the mach have a great tradition in chess.

	It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses. It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1321 - 10/14/06 at 15:40:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Has Kramnik committed himself to Mexico or said anything about it? Running away with the title would be nonsense. If he doesn't defend his title he will no longer be regarded as WC in my eyes. Simple as that. It would however not be the greatest sensation since the Bigbang if FIDE manages to mess everything up.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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cherry YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 10/11/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1320 - 10/14/06 at 15:29:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Mortal Games wrote on 10/14/06 at 15:21:43: If Topalov will not participate in Mexico tournament in 2007, after the mind games he and his team had do in this match with Kramnik is even better news! Chess tournament in 2007 will be better and much more stronger than in San Luis. i can't see how topa not in this tournament makes it stronger. i know he acted disgracefully, but he is a brilliant player, no doubt about it.


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cherry YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 10/11/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1319 - 10/14/06 at 15:26:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe by contract, kram has to play in this tournament, but if he doesn't, he should tell fide to go get bent lol. With topa not in it, and kram not in it, no one will take seriously .. kram is bigger than fide now, he should fight to get the wc played with a match. He could 'work out' who he should play next year, or the year after. I guess that wouldn't be liked by most chess players, i don't know. I don't think fide is ... popular at the moment, but maybe i got all this wrong.


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Mortal Games God Member Offline Posts: 587 Joined: 07/24/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1318 - 10/14/06 at 15:21:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	If Topalov will not participate in Mexico tournament in 2007, after the mind games he and his team had do in this match with Kramnik is even better news! Chess tournament in 2007 will be better and much more stronger than in San Luis.

	It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses. It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1317 - 10/14/06 at 15:20:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	from http://www.chessmexico.com/index.php?set_language=en&cccpage=tournament_players Quote: THE FOUR QUALIFIED PLAYERS The reigning World Champion is the 31 year old Bulgarian, Veselin Topalov, who has dominated the chess scene over the past year and a half. At fourteen, when he won the world title for his age group, Veselin already showed signs of his greatest asset: an indomitable fighting spirit. Two years later he left his home country for Spain where he intended to make a living from chess. He not only accomplished this goal by winning many open tournaments, but soon joined the ranks of the best Grandmasters. During his visit to Mexico last March, the World Champion was immediately popular with chess fans thanks to his warm personality and his command of the Spanish language. However, Topalov’s place in Mexico's world championship is not certain. He must first defend his title against Russian Vladimir Kramnik in a match that is scheduled to begin on September 21 and concludes October 13, currently underway Elista, the capital of the Russian Republic of Kalmykia. Should Kramnik win, he will take Topalov's spot in the Mexico tournament. So Topalov has not qualified to participate in the Mexico tournament. Kramnik will play instead. According to FIDE, the tournament will determined the World Champion (no match).

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1316 - 10/14/06 at 15:01:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, I read it either on chessbase, susanpolgar or chessninja that Topalov would not participate in Mexico next year due to some new FIDE-rule 'not intended for him'.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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cherry YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 10/11/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1315 - 10/14/06 at 14:56:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	i thought topa can't go in it now, cause he lost to kram, and i thought they cancelled the matches? i didn't know the winner was playing a match with kram, really is that true?


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Mortal Games God Member Offline Posts: 587 Joined: 07/24/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1314 - 10/14/06 at 14:43:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Are fide now having the World Championship go back to a touranment, like the one topa won? The FIDE tournament will be next september 11 of 2007 and will be in Mexico city http://www.chessmexico.com The qualified players are: Topalov, Anand, Svidler and Morozevich after the tournament in San Luis and the candidates will be the winners of this matches: Levon Aronian (Armenia) vs. Magnus Carlsen (Norway) Peter Leko (Hungary) vs. Mikhail Gurevich (Turkey) Ruslan Ponomariov (Ukraine) vs. Sergey Rublevsky (Russia) Boris Gelfand (Israel) vs. Rustam Kasimdzhanov (Uzbekistan) Etienne Bacrot (France) vs. Gata Kamsky (USA) Alexander Grischuk (Russia) vs. Vladimir Malakhov (Russia) Judit Polgar (Hungary) vs. Evgeny Bareev (Russia) Alexei Shirov (Spain) vs. Michael Adams (UK) and after this games and this tournament in Mexico, the winner will face Vladimir Kramnik in a match

	It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses. It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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cherry YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 11 Joined: 10/11/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1313 - 10/14/06 at 14:29:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Besides all the sad things that happened in this match (the way team topa did things, sigh), what a fantastic match it was! It was great to see these 2 great players, with sooo different styles, playing against each other. Isn't this more exciting than a tournament for the World Championship? Are fide now having the World Championship go back to a touranment, like the one topa won? If there was a poll with all chess players the world over, on what format the world championship should be played, wouldn't it be a landslide win for matches instead of tournament. Surely a tournament can't bring such tension, such excitement etc etc as this match did. Oh well, will Kramnik play in this tournament coming up, i see 2 world champs again coming up. Even if kram plays, of course he could win, but it can easily happen he won't. Then he will maintain, and why not, that he is classical champ, and we will have a fide champ too hehe.


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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1312 - 10/14/06 at 10:30:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: RE: "maybe Everyman should write a book on the elephant in the corner of the room during this match - the Petroff. Maybe this opening won the match without making a move?!" PS - I recently emailed both Gambit and Everyman about whether they planned on producing a book on the Petroff for club level players (i.e. 'Starting Out' or 'Chess Explained'). Both replied that it isn't commerically feasible. I think this lack of coverage on the club level makes it a pretty good choice for black -- very few amateurs have a well thought out reply. I think Topalov failed to find an adequate edge in his preparation and thus avoided allowing it -- hence, SlavFest 2006. A few years ago, after the publication of Emms Play the Open Games as Black, I emailed Gambit to suggest that they publish for Black on how to deal with all of those annoying lines where White opens 1 d4 and fails to follow up with 2 c4. His reply was that he did not think a book like that was feasible. Interestingly enough, Everyman has now come out with exactly the same book. Dealing with 1. d4 Deviatuions Sometimes, one pubisher sees value in a book idea that another pubisher might disregard. Gambit and Everyman, though they are the most prolific, are not the only publishers around.

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Prince-Nez Senior Member Offline Sic Transit Gloria Mundi Posts: 251 Joined: 03/23/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1311 - 10/14/06 at 01:42:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: I recently emailed both Gambit and Everyman about whether they planned on producing a book on the Petroff for club level players (i.e. 'Starting Out' or 'Chess Explained'). Both replied that it isn't commerically feasible. That is a bit surprising. I had assumed that Everyman would eventually publish a "Starting Out" book on every major opening. They did, of course, publish a book on it by Raetsky and Chetverik in 2005.

	We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art. &&~ Henry James
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1310 - 10/14/06 at 01:40:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/13/06 at 21:49:04: Inn2, maybe Everyman should write a book on the elephant in the corner of the room during this match - the Petroff. Maybe this opening won the match without making a move?! Interesting comment. The bigger question is why some openings were unplayed. 1. Petroff: Is there any specific line which Topalov did not like in the Petroff? Perhaps 5. Nc3 is not so strong after all!? 2. Semi-Slav: So Kramnik's 8... Bg6 in the 6. Ne5 Slav turns out to be irrefutable in a short match and White has to go for early e3 lines. But curious why Topalov (and also Kramnik) frequently avoided the main line Meran in favour of side lines (Topalov's 8... Bb7 9. a3, Kramnik's 8. Be2!?, Both sides' 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 Bf5). I am guessing avoiding the opponent's prep nowadays is as important as critical prep itself. Maybe Gambit should come up with a book on opening selection against opponents?! The psychologist Amatzvia Avni is a good choice to write it.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1309 - 10/13/06 at 23:56:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik and the slav go way back. The big man himself got slayed in '96. See the attached game.

	kasparov_kramnik_1996.pgn ( 0 KB \| Downloads ) There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1308 - 10/13/06 at 23:13:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	RE: "maybe Everyman should write a book on the elephant in the corner of the room during this match - the Petroff. Maybe this opening won the match without making a move?!" I agree. I honestly think Topalov never played 1.e4 because he didn't feel like banging his head against the Petroff (and thereby waste a white). Its funny that an opening can be rather popular with top players, yet disparaged by people who have no real experience with it; but I already ranted about this before: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152780824/0 ; Nietzsche PS - I recently emailed both Gambit and Everyman about whether they planned on producing a book on the Petroff for club level players (i.e. 'Starting Out' or 'Chess Explained'). Both replied that it isn't commerically feasible. I think this lack of coverage on the club level makes it a pretty good choice for black -- very few amateurs have a well thought out reply. I think Topalov failed to find an adequate edge in his preparation and thus avoided allowing it -- hence, SlavFest 2006.

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1307 - 10/13/06 at 22:17:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	Considering everything I for one am immensely satisfied that the deserving player won, and on reflection I wonder if the actions of Topalov's team rebounded on him psychologically, as he seemed to make a lot of unforced blunders in this match. Kramnik for his part proved mentally much tougher than I gave him credit for. This contest reminded me how enthralling and entertaining WC matches can be and I hope we have not seen the end of this format. Lets hope that Topalov and his team eventually realises that in the long run it is better to be a gracious loser than a despised undeserving winner. Despite it all, all I can say is.... What a match!! Topper

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1306 - 10/13/06 at 21:49:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	Inn2, maybe Everyman should write a book on the elephant in the corner of the room during this match - the Petroff. Maybe this opening won the match without making a move?!


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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1305 - 10/13/06 at 17:48:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	While the rather minor problem of a single World Champion has been solved the larger problem of FIDE & Kirsan still looms! I'M quite certain by the time Mexico City rolls around the chess world again will be torn assunder by the missmanagements of FIDE and certain 'self' serving GM's. The crisis for top level chess is far from over.......


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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1304 - 10/13/06 at 17:10:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hey! Who's looking forward to the great Topalov - Radjabov match now??

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1303 - 10/13/06 at 17:08:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Had to miss the last rapid game and was expecting a draw when I left - but I see Kramnik won! It's great that the issue was decided over the board. Under different circumstances I might have been routing for Topalov at the end, since his opening prep was clearly better and he emerged with a clear early middlegame advantage in most of the games (not taking into account today's games where this was not really the issue). However, given the actual circumstance I think this was, for me as well as for most people, the only acceptable outcome. I hope there is some chance there will be a re-match at some point (sadly, I guess this is not part of current FIDE agenda). I'd like to see how such a match would go with more match experience for Topalov and less off the board controversy (in particular no forfeit points!).

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1302 - 10/13/06 at 16:58:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	RE: "Kramnik has hardly shown anything. " Amazing! Is there nothing Kramnik can do to impress you people?? He had a 2844 performance in this match. Earlier this year he had a 2847 performance in the Olympiad (which was the best result of all 1307 players), and he won Dortmund (again!) with 2818. He beat Kasparov in a match and he just beat Topalov in a match after giving him a free win as Black. Why can't people accept the fact that he is one of the best players, if not THE best player, in the world. If you don't like his style of chess, that's fine. Its not your cup of tea. But please stop acting like this guy isn't an amazing player when his results are so fantastic. He is the undisputed world champion and yet people are still acting like he's 'not that good' or that his games aren't impressive. I would kill to play chess as well as Kramnik and anyone even remotely close to his level has profound respect for his abilities. Its ridiculous that a guy who wins everything is constantly treated with such little respect. It is just naive.

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1301 - 10/13/06 at 16:52:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	The person who robbed Shirov of his rights was Kasparov, not Kramnik. I've never quite understood why Shirov had no contractual remedies about that. I suppose he unwisely signed up with Braingames and it was their obligation to arrange the match rather than Kasparov's to play him come what may by way of sponsorship. And then of course Braingames (do I mean Einstein? whoever) disappeared in a puff of smoke, so there was no-one to sue, Still, at least Keene and his crowd got paid, so there's something to be thankful for. Except, tragically enough, Levy, or so one gathers. I'd have more sympathy for Shirov if he whined about it rather less, really. You sign contracts with a crowd like whoever-it-was, you understand you're taking a commercial gamble.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1300 - 10/13/06 at 16:34:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Good that it finished and with a good result. I rooted for Topalov, but Kramnik was better in the end. Also the salary payers of John Cox, Keano, Castlerock, Klick and various others will be happy that the match is finished.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1299 - 10/13/06 at 16:33:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	A sad day for chess. Kramnik has hardly shown anything. One reasonable good game, game 10. We now have a world champion who never succeeded in qualifying for a Fide world champion fight, He got his shot by a very generous Kasparov. Remember he never qualified for that match either (losing from a brilliant Shirov). The fact remains that Kramnik never qualified for a title match, and had no qualms to rob Shirov of his rights. So dont talk to me of a worthy champion off board. As a worthy champion chesswise, show me his brilliant games in this match.


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1298 - 10/13/06 at 16:25:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	A fantastic day of chess, and a fantastic day for chess. Kramnik is a worthy world champion both on and off the board. Time for Everyman and Gambit to produce more Slav and Semi-Slav books!


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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1297 - 10/13/06 at 16:20:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Actually, talking about the tiebreak, I’d rather blunder a queen or a mate in one than appear in the situation of Leko in 2004. He did not yield to Kramnik two years ago, but Leko is nobody now, and Kramnik is a world champion. Tiebreak is a good thing, and it doesn’t matter for me how it ends. If I lose, it will happen because of my own fault, not because of the regulations. -- Topalov (From the press conference after game 12.)


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1296 - 10/13/06 at 15:50:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik in my opinion is the best in the world: he would be favourite against any other player in the world in a match, and I think anyone would hesitate to say they had a deeper understanding of chess than he. But whether he has regained the majestic form of the mid-to-late nineties is another matter. I would tend to agree he hasn’t, although these two rapidplay wins were very characteristic. He’s suffering from having no creative work on 1 d4 for such a long period, as well as the illness. It was very noticeable how much more Topalov had by the way of opening ideas, which is usually a hallmark of a champion, and was always Kramnik’s up until 2002 or so. It will be very interesting to see how he does against Fritz. And indeed how the politics play out – is he really going to put his title on the line in some poxy Linares substitute in Mexico, after such a great match as we’ve just seen. I fear he will – he’s a man of his word and if that’s what he’s signed up to do that’s what he’ll do. Although when the organisers try to sneak Topalov in, as they will, Kramnik may at that point feel released from his obligations……. I'm so glad he's won. Topalov's fun to watch and all, but he's not quite a world champion yet, and then of course there's the nonsense.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1295 - 10/13/06 at 15:30:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well I am back and sad to learn my man Topalov lost the last game of rapid. Congrats to Kramnik, I am glad that at least it did not go down to blitz, which would have been a somewhat embarrasing way to decide a World Ch! Today was a bit of a lottery in my opinion, and this kind of rapid-play torture is obviously no way to decide a World Ch, but Topalov has only himself to blame - in the Classical time-control I felt he had the initiative in the match throughout, but blunders cost him dearly - and these as I know too well are part of the game also Chess is a cruel game in that respect, but we all know the territory. As for Kramnik, my feeling is he has still not recovered his form completely, far from it in fact - his chess looked a bit stale in this match. He was put through the wringer though, so full respect for hanging in (especially at one point down when even his fans (but not me!) had given up on him). At the end of the day chess is a sport, and sometimes it is these sporting aspects such as character and determination (which I also believe Topalov has) are what is important. We can only look forward now to the future - what now? I hope it is not the end of the traditional World ch matches, maybe a San Luis type tournament to decide the next challenger - I just havent kept up with it.


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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1294 - 10/13/06 at 15:25:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ok...that was the best day of chess I've ever seen. All the games were exciting and very well played (except that last blunder...) Great defense in game 1 by Kramnik, terrific precision in game 2, then excellent play by Topalov in game 3. But, in the end, hubris caught up to Topalov. After claiming Kramnik wasn't even in his class, Topalov has went down hard. His team was juvenile throughout, he got a free point as black, 3 whites in a row, and then still lost. His last blunder was the hand of justice. Caissa's final touch on a veryembarassing match for Topalov. We finally have a unified champ! And one who is professional, well-spoken, and a gentleman. Hurray for Kramnik! Nietzsche ps - Does anyone know how the match will affect their ratings? I think Kramnik will be in sole possesion of #2. But can anyone actually figure out the numbers?

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1293 - 10/13/06 at 15:17:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Right, down the offie for a bottle of champagne for my long-suffering office. Bet I get ripped off - very Nick Hornby. Looking forward hugely to Topalov's press conference. 'Not so full of yourself now, are you?', as Mark Ferguson says when he refutes one of my moves.


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Viking God Member Offline Posts: 673 Location: Norway Joined: 10/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1292 - 10/13/06 at 15:16:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	KRAMNIK!! There is only ONE WC.... Kramnik! ...and Topalov will forever be a loser...


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Mortal Games God Member Offline Posts: 587 Joined: 07/24/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1291 - 10/13/06 at 15:13:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Congratulations to Kramnik the new world unified champion! Justice is done!

	It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses. It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1290 - 10/13/06 at 15:13:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	I can't say that Kramnik was better than Topalov in this match, but given the cirmumstances, it was good that Kramnik won.

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1289 - 10/13/06 at 15:09:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik WC!


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1288 - 10/13/06 at 15:03:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	White won!

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1287 - 10/13/06 at 14:58:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Susan P - 'the match may end here' (after move 39)


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1286 - 10/13/06 at 14:58:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Got to go guys. Missing climax. To me it looks like Kramnik is unified WC and Keano's kid sister can give a check mate to Topalov! (Hope so)

	CastleRock
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1285 - 10/13/06 at 14:57:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Polgar thinks white should win this at classical time-control.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1284 - 10/13/06 at 14:57:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Looks very good for White from the diagram - Rb5 and so on.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1283 - 10/13/06 at 14:56:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	31...Rf5 32 f3 Re5; what is that - looks like panic, almost. Black can't go for activity like this, can he? Where's that rook going from e5?


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1282 - 10/13/06 at 14:54:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	White is playing for the win.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1281 - 10/13/06 at 14:54:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Susan P 'doubts Topalov could hold this at a classical control'. Going a bit far. 31...Rb1 looks right to me now, then if the a-pawn moves after the exchange ...Ba2 ties White down to the c-pawn.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1280 - 10/13/06 at 14:54:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Now, I like white. Kram has chances.

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1279 - 10/13/06 at 14:53:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Machines, anyone. Has anyone moved after 31 Ra1? I wonder if this would be more exciting or less if we could see the damned site!


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1278 - 10/13/06 at 14:49:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	31 Ra1. Is it me or might White have some chances here?


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Ptero Full Member Offline When all else fails, read the instructions. Posts: 220 Joined: 03/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1277 - 10/13/06 at 14:46:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	some chances for Kram


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1276 - 10/13/06 at 14:45:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Looks like it will go into Blitz.

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1275 - 10/13/06 at 14:41:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ah, temporary pawn sacrifice from Topa: looks to be heading for a draw.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1274 - 10/13/06 at 14:40:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Server, evidently. 21....Be4 22 Rb3 played. I guess c3 is protected by Ptero's Nf5 trick still.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1273 - 10/13/06 at 14:39:03	Post Tools	Print Post


	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1272 - 10/13/06 at 14:37:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Or that, indeed. Is Topalov thinking an eternity after Rab1 or is the server down again?


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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1271 - 10/13/06 at 14:35:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ah. Rc7 was not good. Will black get his rook on h8 to play or not?

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Ptero Full Member Offline When all else fails, read the instructions. Posts: 220 Joined: 03/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1270 - 10/13/06 at 14:33:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	if 21...Rc7 22.Nf5!


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1269 - 10/13/06 at 14:32:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Some tricks here - Black has some ways to lose immediately. What's the machine say, Klick? Does ...Rc7 Nb5 not win immediately, for example?


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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1268 - 10/13/06 at 14:30:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Black is slightly better after 20...Na4, no? Bxe7 Kxe7, rook comes out and play against pawn on c3. Rab1 played. Rc7 looks fine.

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1267 - 10/13/06 at 14:30:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Wow, Rab1; didn't see that. Susan P likes White suddenly.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1266 - 10/13/06 at 14:28:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topa is slightly better if anything, I suppose. I don't think it's anything too serious yet.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1265 - 10/13/06 at 14:26:01	Post Tools	Print Post


	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1264 - 10/13/06 at 14:23:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Oy, finally it's up. A queenless middlegame. Looks equalish to me. I think we're going to the blitz.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1263 - 10/13/06 at 14:20:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Anyway, some of kind of Be2 Meran with b4/e5 at some moment (only two queens). Anyone very kindly post a diagram?


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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1262 - 10/13/06 at 14:14:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think that the side requiring only a draw has the advantage. My feeling is this outweights the minute minus.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1261 - 10/13/06 at 14:14:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	In an Armageddon game, sure, (certainly at 6-5) but that's three games away yet, potentially.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1260 - 10/13/06 at 14:13:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	And they're off again, apparently. The same line as game three, colours reversed, up to white's fourth. Can ANYONE see this live?


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1259 - 10/13/06 at 14:12:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Which colour is best to have in the Armageddon-game? Black?!

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1258 - 10/13/06 at 14:09:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Not to mention my other pet peeve. Mix ....e5 and trading the g6 bishop, you risk getting flamed on the kingside light-squares. I'm still not sure Vlad did the right thing going with a whole new opening for this event, but hey, maybe 2...c6 is just the correct move these days?


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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1257 - 10/13/06 at 14:07:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ok, I am with Keano supporting Topalov. Though I think Kramnik will prevail in the shoot-out. My reasons are not connected with the circus surrounding this match. I simply think that Topalov showed the most enterprising and entertaining chess in this match.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1256 - 10/13/06 at 14:00:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Great - if the site falls down like this during a rapid game what chance is there in the blitz?! I told you. That damned knight on b6 never got to play!


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1255 - 10/13/06 at 14:00:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well my man Topalov is not dead! I'm going to miss the last game now, this is turning into a lottery - lets hope it doesnt go to blitz!


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1254 - 10/13/06 at 13:58:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yep, offical Topalov wins.


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1253 - 10/13/06 at 13:55:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik's pos has gone, just frantic moves now


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1252 - 10/13/06 at 13:53:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	God, this is like watching England. We used to just lose hopelessly in penalty shootouts. Now we generally take the lead and then lose anyway. I'm not sure which is worse. Especially since I can't actually see the board.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1251 - 10/13/06 at 13:51:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Looks like Topalov should win this one.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1250 - 10/13/06 at 13:51:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	They were saying awhile ago Topalov was down five minutes. Now official site has him up five minutes- very bad sign. Still not really seeing what his next move's going to be though. I suppose he's threatening e6. Then if Qd6 maybe he can capture because of e7+. And that damned knight on a3 - if ...be7 then it can be captured and the queen deflected.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1249 - 10/13/06 at 13:51:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Black looks dead.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1248 - 10/13/06 at 13:48:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm eating soup so a bit hard to contribute. Comp says equal but for sure I wouldn't like being black now.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1247 - 10/13/06 at 13:48:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks guys. White is better, it looks like.

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1246 - 10/13/06 at 13:47:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Not sure I understand White's idea here. How's he going to try and extricate himself from that pin and recapture on g4?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1245 - 10/13/06 at 13:45:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	sorry - 30 na3 31 qe2 qd7 32 rd1 b5, and now 33 g4!? Wow. Do or die.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1244 - 10/13/06 at 13:44:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	AH, that's more like it. ...Na3, eh? Liking that pin down the d-file, though.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1243 - 10/13/06 at 13:43:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	In fact I'd go further and say Black looks busted. What's he doing about h5. Klick?? Castlerock? Enders?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1242 - 10/13/06 at 13:42:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	23...Rfd8 24 Bd3 Qe6 25 Bf1 f5 26 Qe2 Kf8 27 Rd1 Qe7 28 h4 Rd5 29 Qc2 Nc4 30 Rh1 White looks better to me.


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1241 - 10/13/06 at 13:41:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	24.Bd3 Qe6, 25 Bc1 f5 26 Qe2 Kf8 27 Rd1 Qe7 28 h4 Rd5 29 Qc2 Nc4 30 Rh1


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1240 - 10/13/06 at 13:40:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 10/13/06 at 13:34:56: Any thing happened after 23.Re1 I'm not getting coverage 23. Re1 Rfd8 24. Bd3 Qe6 25. Bc1 f5 26. Qe2 Kf8 27. Rd1 Qe7 28. h4 Rd5 29. Qc2 Nc4 30. Rh1

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1239 - 10/13/06 at 13:40:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	AH, thank goodness for that. And lookee there, he did manage to move that knight after all. Not that I understand what it's doing on c4. Is he going to play ...b5?


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1238 - 10/13/06 at 13:38:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/13/06 at 13:36:49: No but I've noticed TWIC and the official site fall over! Anyone know what's going on? Last I have is 23...Rfd8. Somebody post moves from 24th pl.

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1237 - 10/13/06 at 13:38:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am back (briefly) it looks like all going well for Kramnik is this rapid torture What is happening in this game? You'd think Topalov needs to win it, although I suppose in rapid theres always a chance to win with Black


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1236 - 10/13/06 at 13:36:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	No but I've noticed TWIC and the official site fall over! Anyone know what's going on? Last I have is 23...Rfd8.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1235 - 10/13/06 at 13:36:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Updated now. White is better.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1234 - 10/13/06 at 13:34:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Any thing happened after 23.Re1 I'm not getting coverage

	CastleRock
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1233 - 10/13/06 at 13:30:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Anyone else notice that Playchess server seems to be down?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1232 - 10/13/06 at 13:25:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, I guess that's dealt with Ne4. Looks like a concession to me though. I still don't like this b6 guy! Didn't Tarrasch say a knight on b6 is always misplaced?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1231 - 10/13/06 at 13:22:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	GM Rowson - I hope I'm wrong but I think White's better here. Black neds more than a move; he needs a concept to cope with f4 and Ne4. Still not all that happy myself. Combining ....e5 and trading the light bishop offends me deeply somewhere in my soul. Probably just me.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1230 - 10/13/06 at 13:20:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have trouble making a call on this one. White has the center and a bit more space, but Black's pieces are better. I think Black is at least OK, though.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1229 - 10/13/06 at 13:20:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Why is Kramnik playing these one move settings as my son calls it.

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1228 - 10/13/06 at 13:17:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	White doesn't look so bad to me, actually. I always miss that light-squared bishop as Black, and I still don't know quite what I'm going to do with the guy on b6. But Sue P is also a bit down on Topa's play, so perhaps Black's just fine.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1227 - 10/13/06 at 13:16:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	SusanP comments on move 11. Quote: The position is roughly equal in this position. I do not understand the SAME opening choice from Topalov over and over again. He SHOULD try something different, anything different. He has no more time left.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1226 - 10/13/06 at 13:16:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	What a player that Topa is - got to get up early to catch him out. Why Kg2 and not Be3, I wonder?


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1225 - 10/13/06 at 13:15:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nothing for white in the opening.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1224 - 10/13/06 at 13:13:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r4rk1/pp2qpp1/1npb1np1/8/... After 15...Qe7 Cheapo. Does Toppy see it?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1223 - 10/13/06 at 13:13:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Looks like he did, John. He took the d pawn this time

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1222 - 10/13/06 at 13:10:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	So was ...Nb6 to ensure he had ...Nfd5 after dxe5 Bxe5 f4 Bc7?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1221 - 10/13/06 at 13:09:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Is White going to play f4 here again?? Let's hope Vlad's learned his lesson and actually manages to get ...c5 in this time....


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1220 - 10/13/06 at 13:09:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r2q1rk1/pp3ppp/1npbpnb1/8... After 11...0-0 Now we get 12.Nxg6 hxg6.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1219 - 10/13/06 at 13:07:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	...Nb6; what on earth is that?? I've never seen that manoeuvre before in this type of position. ANyone?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1218 - 10/13/06 at 13:06:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topalov postponing ...Nxg6. Are we still in theoretical channels?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1217 - 10/13/06 at 13:05:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Already into move 9. It would be very hard on players,

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1216 - 10/13/06 at 13:05:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	and what is this?? This has to be a new plan devised just for the rapids and pre-planned; this isn't how White normally plays this position at all.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1215 - 10/13/06 at 13:04:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Huge psychology on the opening here. Topa's GOT to try and catch Kramnik in his prep somehow...


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1214 - 10/13/06 at 13:02:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yeah, Slavs and Catalans. Just goes to show it's not the opening that makes a game interesting.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1213 - 10/13/06 at 13:02:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	He's normally at lunch from about 1 to 3.30! Maybe he's a Guardian reader - Jon Speelman announced today the rapids were Saturday. Or was that the Independent? Kramnik's very strong in rapids: intuition counts for more in them. He had the edge even on Gazza back in the rapid circuit in the mid-90's, let alone Anand. Age may have withered him a bit but after all he's the same age as Topa, and some people think rapid is better for older players because you don't have to concentrate so long. Although that was back when there were breaks between games....


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1212 - 10/13/06 at 13:01:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	What a WC. Feel we've only seen slavs the entire match.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1211 - 10/13/06 at 13:00:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Board also set up on Playchess, but no moves yet.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1210 - 10/13/06 at 13:00:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	My mistake they just set up the boards on ICC.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1209 - 10/13/06 at 12:58:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Exciting game 2. I think Topalov got a great position is the early middlegame and somehow totally blew it. Faster time control seems to favor Kramnik (less aggressive, but less blunder prone). Where's Keano, BTW?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1208 - 10/13/06 at 12:57:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	10 minutes, surely? It's not up, is it?? Will we see 1 e4? I still guess not.


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1207 - 10/13/06 at 12:54:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Blimey, this is harsh. Looks like they are straight into the third game...


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1206 - 10/13/06 at 12:53:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/13/06 at 12:51:48: I'm supposed to be working now..... Don't. There still may be some hope left for Pro chess.

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1205 - 10/13/06 at 12:53:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Two high quality games. Typical of that flow you get in high-class rapid. If you lose that you're dead, and that's what happened to Topa here; round about moves 24-27 he didn't quite follow the music somehow, while Kramnik reorganised beautifully over that period, et voila.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1204 - 10/13/06 at 12:53:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topalov has his back to the wall again, and here he only has time for over the board tactics.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1203 - 10/13/06 at 12:51:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Excellent - Nigel doesn't often make me laugh, but I'm going to make an exception. Let's hope he's right about the result and not about the lawyers - I'm supposed to be working now.....


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1202 - 10/13/06 at 12:51:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	Wow! Way to go Kramnik

	CastleRock
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1201 - 10/13/06 at 12:51:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	1-0 !!!!!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1200 - 10/13/06 at 12:50:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	1-0! Way to go! Will be interesting to see what Topalov will do next game. Maybe we even will se 1.e4?!

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1199 - 10/13/06 at 12:50:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topa's computer hasn't got a 'resign' function...


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1198 - 10/13/06 at 12:49:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	from Playchess server Quote: Nigel Short: This is a tragedy. There will be some unemployed lawyers after this...

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1197 - 10/13/06 at 12:46:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	from http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/ Quote: 30.Rxe8 Rxe8 31.a4 b4 32.Ne4 Nxe4 33.fxe4 (White has a BIG advantage now. Topalov brough this to himself by completely misplaying his position by retreating his Bishops for no reason whatsoever.) 33...Nf6 (Another bad move. 33...Bd6 is better. Now, I am not sure if Black can hold this position. It looks very bad!) 34.d6 Nxe4 35.d7 Rd8 36.Bxa6 (White is winning now.)

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1196 - 10/13/06 at 12:46:01	Post Tools	Print Post


	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1195 - 10/13/06 at 12:43:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Looks more like 1-0 now.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1194 - 10/13/06 at 12:43:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 10/13/06 at 12:41:12: This looks ugly for Black. Agreed!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1193 - 10/13/06 at 12:42:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Still + 1.5?


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1192 - 10/13/06 at 12:41:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	This looks ugly for Black.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1191 - 10/13/06 at 12:41:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=4rbk1/3n1p2/p6p/2pP2p1/Pp... After 33.fxe4 Looking good for Kram.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1190 - 10/13/06 at 12:40:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Or not, of course. Maybe this is better - that rook on e4 is awfully ineptly placed.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1189 - 10/13/06 at 12:39:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, a4. And now maybe the knight round to f5. Does Black want to play ...Nb6 with counterplay against d5?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1188 - 10/13/06 at 12:39:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	d4-pawn and a6 pawn go and White has clear edge (two B and backwards c5-pawn) I think.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1187 - 10/13/06 at 12:38:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	...Ned7; what's that about? Somehow ...Bd6 looked natural. Does Topa just want to trade rooks? I suppose that must be right - if he got to cnetralise his king d5 would just be weak, so simplification might favour Black.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1186 - 10/13/06 at 12:38:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Now white is better! +1.5

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1185 - 10/13/06 at 12:36:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	After 24...c5, I thought Black was better. Now I like White. Way to go Kramnik!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1184 - 10/13/06 at 12:35:28	Post Tools	Print Post


	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1183 - 10/13/06 at 12:35:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Black looks nice on the black squares. But is a4 going to be a nuisance? Karpov was a great exponent of this system. I suppose Kramnik's style is maybe a little like his these days.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1182 - 10/13/06 at 12:33:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	from http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/ Quote: 25.f3 Bf8 26.Bf2 Bc8 (In rapid, players have to move relatively fast. Therefore, a lot of second best moves were played. That is normal.) 27.Ne3 (Topalov misplayed the last few moves. He took his active Bishops and made nothing of it.)

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1181 - 10/13/06 at 12:33:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK, I was completely wrong as usual. The man had a plan. White's not looking so bad now, is he? Was the computer just flickering, klick, or is it still with White after Ned5?


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1180 - 10/13/06 at 12:31:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Suddenly comp-evaluation changed over a pawn in white's favour, from -.5 to +.8

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1179 - 10/13/06 at 12:30:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Is it that h4 is met with Nh7, I wonder, and Kramnik wants to lure the c-pawn off c6 first so as to have Nd5?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1178 - 10/13/06 at 12:28:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Be3: hmm, I was hoping to put the knight there. What's the idea after ...c5, I wonder.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1177 - 10/13/06 at 12:28:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/13/06 at 12:25:12: Ah, finally got it, Nbd7 e5 Bc5 exf6 rxe1 rxe1 and Bxd4. But of course everyone else saw that. I saw it.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1176 - 10/13/06 at 12:27:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	...g5; gee whizz. Susie P was wanting that. WHo was it said 'Mr X plays a game I am not familiar with'. Botvinnik on Tal? (or more plausibly someone on jack Nicklaus?)


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1175 - 10/13/06 at 12:26:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=3rr1k1/1b3p1p/p1pb1n2/1p2... After 23.Bc1 from http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/ Quote: (The position is roughly equal but Black has plenty of play. 22...g5 is possible here with the idea of Ng6 then Nf4 but it weakens the f5 square.) 22...g5 (As predicted. Topalov is going for it again. He is pushing in every game.)

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1174 - 10/13/06 at 12:26:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/13/06 at 12:21:26: Quick - someone tell me why f4 and e5 doesn't win a piece?! Bc5+?

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1173 - 10/13/06 at 12:25:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ah, finally got it, Nbd7 e5 Bc5 exf6 rxe1 rxe1 and Bxd4. But of course everyone else saw that.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1172 - 10/13/06 at 12:24:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	22.Nc2 threatens to win a piece with 23.f4. No. Black has ...Bc5+.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1171 - 10/13/06 at 12:23:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	I guess Black wins back piece with ...Bc5.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1170 - 10/13/06 at 12:23:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK, didn't win a piece. Not so sharp then. I thought this was impossible for Black. I guess Black must be better now if anyone?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1169 - 10/13/06 at 12:21:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quick - someone tell me why f4 and e5 doesn't win a piece?!


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1168 - 10/13/06 at 12:20:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	This is kinda sharp and may get more so, I guess. How's Topa dealing with Nf5, I wonder?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1167 - 10/13/06 at 12:18:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=3rr1k1/1b1nqp1p/p1pb1np1/... After 18...a6 Here comes ...c5. from http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/ Quote: White has space advantage but Black is doing fine in this position. When the time is right, the d4 and e5 pawns will be traded and play will be surrounding the center.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1166 - 10/13/06 at 12:17:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	See? Kramnik's playing very slowly, though. I'm not sure he can find a plan either.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1165 - 10/13/06 at 12:14:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	You'r an oracle John!

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1164 - 10/13/06 at 12:14:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Susan P says (after 14...g6): from http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/ Quote: This is a fine opening choice for Topalov. There is room for play. I am not sure if I would be happy to get nothing out of White in the opening. Topalov is also up by about 5 minutes on the clock.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1163 - 10/13/06 at 12:12:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Gee, I should be playing. Still, Rad8, what then?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1162 - 10/13/06 at 12:12:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	Black wants to get in ...c5 to activate the B@b7. Can White prevent this (after ...a6)?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1161 - 10/13/06 at 12:10:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	He could try g3, exchange on e5 and go for f4. But it does look drafty for the white king. He's not going to play it.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1160 - 10/13/06 at 12:08:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Not that I'm wild about this either. I never know what White's supposed to be trying to do in these positions. Anyone got a plan for White? Qd2? (not a plan, I know) g3 and Bg2?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1159 - 10/13/06 at 12:08:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=2r1r1k1/pb1nqp1p/2pb1np1/... After 16...g6

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1158 - 10/13/06 at 12:06:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Now 14...dxc4 15.Bxc4

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1157 - 10/13/06 at 12:06:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Seems like Black has equalized easily here.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1156 - 10/13/06 at 12:05:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK, e4, that's what he's doing. I know nothing.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1155 - 10/13/06 at 12:02:52	Post Tools	Print Post


	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1154 - 10/13/06 at 12:02:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	10 minutes I think. Brutal. God, what is White doing here? Already this looks no good (13...e5)


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1153 - 10/13/06 at 12:00:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	How much time between games?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1152 - 10/13/06 at 11:58:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Mig is white that bad honestly?? or was Gary speaking tounge-in-cheek? Posted by: d at October 13, 2006 07:23 No, dead serious. He was looking all sorts of sacrificial stuff for Black. Not Kramnik's taste, of course, and who's to say it was winning. But there were some truly terrifying piece sacrifices in there with ..Be4 instead of ..Rd8. Garry would have played it in a heartbeat, you could tell from his voice! Posted by: Mig at October 13, 2006 07:26

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1151 - 10/13/06 at 11:56:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Kasparov pre-tiebreak comments from the Lisbon airport: "It's amazing they are going to play four games. It's usually 50 minutes to an hour per game, maybe more, then you have to have a rest, so this could go five and half or six hours, incredible. It's not just the time, it's the climaxes and pressure. In a regular game you have one or two peak moments, but in rapid and over four games it's constant. This is how they decide the title? Come on, this isn't Washington Square Park, or maybe that's what they want it to look like. It was a short match, couldn't they have added another pair of games? It's hard to believe Kramnik saw this in the regulations and agreed to it. Maybe I'll see most of the first game before my plane leaves..." Kasparov game one, still from Lisbon airport: (after move 14) It looks like Topalov is already lost with white. Does he not understand chess at all? What is he doing? Did he think he was improving on game 2? Horrible, amazing... [He had to board the plane after 21.Re2, sorry!] ... [I just gave Garry the last dozen moves over the phone] "Oh, oh, now White is probably even better. Ridiculous. He always has to worry about the a-pawn. From such a position... You remember this guy with the black pieces, Mig? He sacrificed a piece against me, you remember him? What happened to him? Now look at him. Now he could be in deep ****." ... [He had to turn off the phone after 44.Ba6.] "Should be a draw." Was horrified by Kh2, "a terrible place for the king." Pointed out cool line that won for White except for the king being on h2, allowing a queen sacrifice to put a rook on a2 to hit g2. Neat.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1150 - 10/13/06 at 11:53:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Go to the Daily dirt bit on the side and the top item's a forum thread where Mig posts his cellphone chats with Gazza. Of course Black played terribly later on according to Gazza. Let's face it, he could, in the famous words of Dave NoGood, beat them both drunk......


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1149 - 10/13/06 at 11:52:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Chessninja.com


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1148 - 10/13/06 at 11:51:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hey John, where did you pick up the Gazza comments?

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1147 - 10/13/06 at 11:50:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Wow, so it ends up drawn - best game of the match?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1146 - 10/13/06 at 11:49:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	So that's that, then. Fun while it lasted. Rb2 was nothing of course.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1145 - 10/13/06 at 11:49:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Drawn. Great game. Wonder if Kramnik could have gone for more in the ending.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1144 - 10/13/06 at 11:49:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	draw

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1143 - 10/13/06 at 11:48:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Rb2 now? Or just d4 liquidating?


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1142 - 10/13/06 at 11:47:41	Post Tools	Print Post


	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1141 - 10/13/06 at 11:47:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Black is great here, no?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1140 - 10/13/06 at 11:47:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	There must be some tactical line now which burns out to a draw, no?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1139 - 10/13/06 at 11:46:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	36...Nc4!! was a beautiful move.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1138 - 10/13/06 at 11:43:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Whats the machine saying now Klick?


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1137 - 10/13/06 at 11:42:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	oh man this is tough playing

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1136 - 10/13/06 at 11:42:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Gothic chess just means silly pieces, doesn't it?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1135 - 10/13/06 at 11:40:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	h3 - battle for the tempo I think before ...Nb6; Bc5 occurs. Gazza's now on a plane and incommunicado, apparently!


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1134 - 10/13/06 at 11:40:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/13/06 at 10:59:06: Did anyone hear there might finally happen the Fischer-Karpov match, I am not joking! There are millions for this match. If Fischer wins he will continue to claim he is the REAL World ch Yes. I heard about a Fischer-Karpov match in Gothic Chess. Karpov has signed on, but not Fischer yet.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1133 - 10/13/06 at 11:39:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	What is Gazza saying now?

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1132 - 10/13/06 at 11:39:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topa's stopped to think - good sign, surely; did he not expect ...h6? It looks generally useful, obviously.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1131 - 10/13/06 at 11:37:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	It's heating up! -.44 according to comp..

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1130 - 10/13/06 at 11:37:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	wow - very interesting way to play from Topalov - gives up a4 but now all the Black pieces except the bishop are awful, especially the Knight


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1129 - 10/13/06 at 11:36:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topa's idea is that the knight is trapped and ...Nb6 Bc5 roots it to the spot for good, I suppose. But the a-pawn?


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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1128 - 10/13/06 at 11:36:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/13/06 at 11:34:32: ...Ra8! gosh, he really wants ...Nb6. Very critical way to play it. I wonder if Nc4 as a pawn sacrifice is going to become possible. Computers sometimes go very wrong in those oppo-bishop positions. Absolutely right. Though Hiarcs thinks Black is now marginally better even after Nxa4...

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1127 - 10/13/06 at 11:34:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	...Ra8! gosh, he really wants ...Nb6. Very critical way to play it. I wonder if Nc4 as a pawn sacrifice is going to become possible. Computers sometimes go very wrong in those oppo-bishop positions.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1126 - 10/13/06 at 11:34:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	well ...Qa7, ...Ra8 he has gone completely passive - can White get the c-file now


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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1125 - 10/13/06 at 11:33:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	25...Rc2 works better for Hiarcs (though it didn't want to recommend it...

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1124 - 10/13/06 at 11:33:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	Qa7, yes of course after Qd8/Nb6 a5 hung. And I suppose White has Qd2 anyway to force b6. It's going to be hard to get that knight into active play; bit of an occupational hazard of this line, I guess.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1123 - 10/13/06 at 11:32:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Poor knight..

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1122 - 10/13/06 at 11:31:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	wait a minute, now I like White


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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1121 - 10/13/06 at 11:31:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Strange: I like Black here--solid and coordinated; I rather fancy Topalov will also push too hard. Hiarcs, though, likes White by almost a pawn! 25.b4 Rdc8 26.g4 f5 27.b5

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1120 - 10/13/06 at 11:30:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	b4-b5! Gosh - playing against the d7 knight I suppose; now it can't come to c6. But maybe now ...a5 and then Rdc8/Qd8 and Nb6? I suppose not having a rook on the third rank may erode Black's kingside defences too. Poker at least you can see what they hold!


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1119 - 10/13/06 at 11:29:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Symmetrical pawn structure with a single full open file. It’s control should mean some thing.

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1118 - 10/13/06 at 11:28:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	What's Black going to do, I wonder - I guess ...Rdc8, Rc2, Nb8-c6 in a dream world. And White? Is he going to go for it on the kingside? g4/f5? I can't help feeling the guy on e4 may turn out to have more to offer than the one on f1.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1117 - 10/13/06 at 11:28:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	This is like watching poker. I think Black is better but I'm not sure how much that is going to matter - first to blunder....


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1116 - 10/13/06 at 11:26:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Next best thing - according to chesninja Gazza thinks Topalov is already lost ('horrrible, amazing, does he not understand chess at all?'). But of course there is the ever-present Gazza subtext, 'I'm SOOOO much better than these guys.'


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1115 - 10/13/06 at 11:25:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Computer says about even.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1114 - 10/13/06 at 11:23:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	...Rcc8, didn't expect that. I suppose ...a6 is a threat now. C'mon, someone get a computer on the job......


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1113 - 10/13/06 at 11:23:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	I would have put my money on a draw if it was classical time contol. Now I’m putting my money on a usual Topalov Blunder.

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1112 - 10/13/06 at 11:19:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	SP wants to go Re2, then I suppose a6; Rxc2 Bxc2; Bf1 Rc8 or something. I can't see Black being worse here, certainly.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1111 - 10/13/06 at 11:16:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	...Qa5! Gosh, I must be so good. Bb5; I was thinking of that but it looks a bit ad hoc. Say...Rd8, so what? White's hardly going to go Bxd7. Or does he have some tactic with f5 and Bg5?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1110 - 10/13/06 at 11:13:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	'Hot actions by both sides', Susie says. Where is White going to develop that c1 bishop, I wonder? a3? Is Black going to play ...Qa5 now? I don't quite see how to meet that conveniently.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1109 - 10/13/06 at 11:10:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Good afternoon, c'rock. 'A' world champion was what I thought he said, but I agree, one did notice the contrast. Bf1, aha. So he's not going to let the white squares go. You'd think it'd be hard to give mate with that g6 bishop in the way, though. Still, I suppose at some point Kramnik will need to play ...f5, will he?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1108 - 10/13/06 at 11:09:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	We're out of theory, I assume? Any Slavsters out there? I never fancy this line for White - horrid queenside weakness, light-squares dodgy, and you'd jolly well better give mate, but what do I know - nearly worked in game two, and I remember playing in the Phillips and Drew also-rans event while Polugaevsky won the brilliancy prize against Torre in this sort of position. Also I seem to recall that featuring a Bxh7+, so it must have been slightly different.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1107 - 10/13/06 at 11:08:59	Post Tools	Print Post


	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1106 - 10/13/06 at 11:07:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Another funny press meet by Topalov. Chess world is united after San Luis. Leko is nobody. Kramnik is the Champion. I like it. Good A’noon, John.

	CastleRock
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1105 - 10/13/06 at 11:02:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	No problem with the FIDE site here. PS more of a french than a Slav

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1104 - 10/13/06 at 11:00:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	And FIDE site fallen over ALREADY! This could be a trying afternoon in more ways than one. Sue P has some stuff about Fischer-Karpov. Can't see it.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1103 - 10/13/06 at 10:59:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Slav again, same as game two I think? AM I the only one here?!


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1102 - 10/13/06 at 10:59:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Did anyone hear there might finally happen the Fischer-Karpov match, I am not joking! There are millions for this match. If Fischer wins he will continue to claim he is the REAL World ch


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1101 - 10/13/06 at 10:15:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, but micawber, that's just propaganda, isn't it? Of course he doesn't consider anything of the kind. It's just stuff he can pump out for the homeboys in Bulgaria to lap up. I doubt Kramnik does 'want' to have it both ways! I think what he'd like is to play 12 games according to the agreed conditions and see who wins.


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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1100 - 10/13/06 at 07:10:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes as Susan Polgar noted Kramnik want to have it both ways. If he wins, everything will be forgotten and he will be the glorious champ. If he loses, he will sue the Fide, and claim he is still the undefeated champion. Someone else posted he had apparently no difficulty to remain sitting longer at the board during this game. So was his walking about nothing more than a small measure of psychological warfare. Chessbase pointed out the remarkable quote from Topalov with praise for Danilov. (who in my book is at much a crook as Baturinsky) But another remark from the same interview went unnoticed: Topalov considered Kramnik insulting with regard to worrying more about a football match than about chess during one of the games.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1099 - 10/13/06 at 03:22:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 10/13/06 at 02:54:01: What is the start time? Same as for previous rounds. from http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3421 Quote: With that the match is tied 6:6 (with the forfeit game) and will be decided in tie-breaks on Friday, October 13, 2006. Like all the previous rounds the games start at 13:00h local Elista time, which translates to 11:00h GMT, 13:00h CEST, 12:00h London, 7 a.m. New York. Here are the exact rules of the tie-breaks: 3.7 Tie-breaks 3.7.1 If the scores are level after the regular twelve (12) games, after a new drawing of colours, four (4) tie-break games shall be played. The games shall be played using the electronic clock starting with 25 minutes on the clock for each player with an addition of 10 seconds after each move. 3.7.2 If the scores are level after the games in paragraph 3. 7.1, then, after a new drawing of colours, two (2) five-minute games shall be played with the addition of 10 seconds after each move. 3.7.3 If the score is still level, the players shall play a single decisive sudden death game. The player, who wins the drawing of lots, may choose the colour. White shall receive 6 minutes, black shall receive 5 minutes, without any addition. In case of a draw the player with the black pieces is declared as winner.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1098 - 10/13/06 at 02:54:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	What is the start time?

	CastleRock
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1097 - 10/12/06 at 19:08:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 10/12/06 at 17:01:43: By the way was the followinq quote taken from the movie 'The hitchhikers guide to the galaxy'? - "Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was - "Oh no, not again." Actually, it was taken from the book (Douglas Adams is brilliantly funny BTW) - although it may also be quoted in the movie. Well spotted!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1096 - 10/12/06 at 17:01:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/12/06 at 15:42:43: MarinFan wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:54:55: I have my doubts if Kramnik will turn up, just claim moral victory. Kramnik has already stated that he will play the tiebreak games. from http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3416 Quote: Open Letter To FIDE President H.E. Kirsan Illyumzhinov To Head of the 2006 Executive Committee Mr. Valery Bovaev Dear Mr President, Gentlemen, Having received innumerable published and unpublished inquiries I would like to clarify, in the name of Vladimir Kramnik and his team, our position in the decision taken by FIDE regarding the fifth game of the current World Championship match. As you know Vladimir Kramnik is playing the current match under protest. Nothing has changed in our attitude, which is documented by Kramnik’s actions around the fifth game and our statements, protests and letters: 29.09.2006: http://www.kramnik.com/eng/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=104 02.10.2006: http://www.kramnik.com/eng/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=106 04.10.2006: http://www.kramnik.com/eng/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=107 Consistent with this standpoint Vladimir Kramnik will be playing this match, including a possible tiebreak, up to the last move under protest. Should the decision of FIDE regarding the fifth game have any influence on the awarding of the World Championship title, with Mr Topalov receiving the title after being granted a free point for the unplayed game, Mr Kramnik declares unequivocally: “I will not recognize Mr Topalov as World Champion under these conditions, and I will take legal action against FIDE at the end of the World Championship.” The damage done to Mr Kramnik in public opinion (e.g. the slander campaign) after the illegal release of private video images by the then FIDE Appeals Committee or the WCC 2006 Executive Committee to the Topalov team, and the subsequent release of these video images and private information of Mr Kramnik in his restroom to the mass media, as well as the interruption of the match, which broke Mr Kramnik’s concentration and playing rhythm, will all be part of the legal action which will be initiated. As a sign of good will Mr Kramnik once again requests FIDE to arrange for game five to be played out on the board immediately after game 12. This in our opinion is the only way to alleviate the personal, sporting, judicial and ethical injuries that have been incurred by Mr Kramnik. Elista, October 10, 2006 On behalf of Vladimir Kramnik Yours sincerely Carsten Hensel (Manager to Vladimir Kramnik, Classical World Chess Champion) So tie-breaks it is. By the way was the followinq quote taken from the movie 'The hitchhikers guide to the galaxy'? - "Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was - "Oh no, not again." Topper

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1095 - 10/12/06 at 15:42:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	MarinFan wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:54:55: I have my doubts if Kramnik will turn up, just claim moral victory. Kramnik has already stated that he will play the tiebreak games. from http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3416 Quote: Open Letter To FIDE President H.E. Kirsan Illyumzhinov To Head of the 2006 Executive Committee Mr. Valery Bovaev Dear Mr President, Gentlemen, Having received innumerable published and unpublished inquiries I would like to clarify, in the name of Vladimir Kramnik and his team, our position in the decision taken by FIDE regarding the fifth game of the current World Championship match. As you know Vladimir Kramnik is playing the current match under protest. Nothing has changed in our attitude, which is documented by Kramnik’s actions around the fifth game and our statements, protests and letters: 29.09.2006: http://www.kramnik.com/eng/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=104 02.10.2006: http://www.kramnik.com/eng/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=106 04.10.2006: http://www.kramnik.com/eng/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=107 Consistent with this standpoint Vladimir Kramnik will be playing this match, including a possible tiebreak, up to the last move under protest. Should the decision of FIDE regarding the fifth game have any influence on the awarding of the World Championship title, with Mr Topalov receiving the title after being granted a free point for the unplayed game, Mr Kramnik declares unequivocally: “I will not recognize Mr Topalov as World Champion under these conditions, and I will take legal action against FIDE at the end of the World Championship.” The damage done to Mr Kramnik in public opinion (e.g. the slander campaign) after the illegal release of private video images by the then FIDE Appeals Committee or the WCC 2006 Executive Committee to the Topalov team, and the subsequent release of these video images and private information of Mr Kramnik in his restroom to the mass media, as well as the interruption of the match, which broke Mr Kramnik’s concentration and playing rhythm, will all be part of the legal action which will be initiated. As a sign of good will Mr Kramnik once again requests FIDE to arrange for game five to be played out on the board immediately after game 12. This in our opinion is the only way to alleviate the personal, sporting, judicial and ethical injuries that have been incurred by Mr Kramnik. Elista, October 10, 2006 On behalf of Vladimir Kramnik Yours sincerely Carsten Hensel (Manager to Vladimir Kramnik, Classical World Chess Champion)

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1094 - 10/12/06 at 15:25:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nothing we've seen has suggested they won't play. What happened by the way after Karpov's court victory over FIDE in 1999? Was he awarded and paid damages, or what?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1093 - 10/12/06 at 14:58:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	MarinFan wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:54:55: I have my doubts if Kramnik will turn up, just claim moral victory. It all depends if they have got their match fee yet - If so I agree, they will call it today and arrange another money-spinner in 6 months time for the two of them!


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1092 - 10/12/06 at 14:57:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:55:50: So we got 6-5 OTB and 0-1 off the board. Great. Yes. Kramnik really has to work on his off the board game!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1091 - 10/12/06 at 14:55:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	So we got 6-5 OTB and 0-1 off the board. Great.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1090 - 10/12/06 at 14:54:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have my doubts if Kramnik will turn up, just claim moral victory.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1089 - 10/12/06 at 14:54:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Very instructive game today, for those that worry about the minority attack


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1088 - 10/12/06 at 14:53:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano definitely top of the class today. Well, now we know who's the better player then. Shame we have to have this rapids lark tomorrow.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1087 - 10/12/06 at 14:53:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:49:37: So 44 Qc2 now, what then? Maybe he's just going to swop queens and play the rook endgame to prove what a man he is? ...Qa1+ in that line John, I think Qb3 or Qc4 were the moves


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1086 - 10/12/06 at 14:52:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=8/p6k/2p3pr/2R2p2/3P2p1/1... After 44.Qb3 Draw!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1085 - 10/12/06 at 14:52:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, well. A draw it is then.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1084 - 10/12/06 at 14:52:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, just choosen the most flashy one


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1083 - 10/12/06 at 14:51:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Actually, scrap Qc2. Some move that doesn't lose immediately instead. Qb3/c4, to come to f7?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1082 - 10/12/06 at 14:50:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK a spectator draw coming up with ..Rh1+, Rh2+


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1081 - 10/12/06 at 14:49:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	So 44 Qc2 now, what then? Maybe he's just going to swop queens and play the rook endgame to prove what a man he is?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1080 - 10/12/06 at 14:48:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Egad - well, now he doesn't have a draw any more, I don't think? Qd3 played instantly in reply. I wonder what Black's next is?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1079 - 10/12/06 at 14:47:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=8/p5pk/2p4r/2R2p2/3P2p1/3... After 43.Qd3

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1078 - 10/12/06 at 14:47:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Now Qd3 g6, and then something like Qc4 - I suppose everything is a Draw


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1077 - 10/12/06 at 14:46:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:45:28: My God - he played ...Rh6 I should charge you guys money

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1076 - 10/12/06 at 14:45:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	My God - he played ...Rh6


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1075 - 10/12/06 at 14:43:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	41...Rh6 looks very strong to me

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1074 - 10/12/06 at 14:41:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Good game by both today, although Topalov was never really under pressure with Black. Now we go to active chess - Kramnik must be favourite here I suppose!?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1073 - 10/12/06 at 14:38:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	So draw anyway (just not official yet)?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1072 - 10/12/06 at 14:38:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, sorry, what am I talking about, of course he has an immediate draw. Which I'm guessing is what'll now happen.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1071 - 10/12/06 at 14:37:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	yeah I think it was a nice try but now he'll repeat


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1070 - 10/12/06 at 14:36:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	I wonder if this isn't going to carry on, actually? Black doesn't have an immediate draw here, I don't think (does he?). So is the game going to continue? Any engine-wallahs got an answer?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1069 - 10/12/06 at 14:36:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	39.Qa6 Qb2+ 40.Kf1 already played. Must be relayer delay. (Playchess server board showed White losing on time. )

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1068 - 10/12/06 at 14:34:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	This is all in hand still, is it? Say 40...Rh6, for example? What's White doing about that - ah, maybe 41 Qd3 attcking ...f5 again?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1067 - 10/12/06 at 14:34:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	2 min left and Kramnik not moving. Bad time for a rest room break!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1066 - 10/12/06 at 14:32:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	No Ender. He would just interpose with Rook.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1065 - 10/12/06 at 14:29:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Good call, Keano! Apparently, by the way, Topalov has contracted herpes. You couldn't make it up, could you?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1064 - 10/12/06 at 14:28:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:26:37: Keano and Topalov have psychic connection? He has hidden in the toilet so far...

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1063 - 10/12/06 at 14:27:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:24:02: Keano wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:21:55: What is wrong with ...Qb1, if I'm Black I'm playing it, no question! Rxf5 may be an option? Hmmm. Black Can't take the rook ?

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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1062 - 10/12/06 at 14:25:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Computer wants to play Rxc6 =

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1061 - 10/12/06 at 14:24:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:21:55: What is wrong with ...Qb1, if I'm Black I'm playing it, no question! ... Qb1 Rxc6 and what now? If Qxa2 Rc1 Qd5 Rc5 (Qc7 is suggested by silicon brain

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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1060 - 10/12/06 at 14:24:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:21:55: What is wrong with ...Qb1, if I'm Black I'm playing it, no question! Rxf5 may be an option?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1059 - 10/12/06 at 14:23:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ender wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:20:57: Keano wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:17:58: Ender - no need to be negative. Actually I think ...Qb1 is a good posibillity here - of course I am not Rybka I'm only 2100 player, so I'm not even Crafty How about Qb1 Rxc6? 38...Qb1 39.Rxc6?? loses to 39...Qb5+. Oops! Not losing actually. I'm not even Sargon!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1058 - 10/12/06 at 14:23:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	...Qb1 Rxc6 ...Qb5+ Rc4 ...Ra6


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1057 - 10/12/06 at 14:21:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	What is wrong with ...Qb1, if I'm Black I'm playing it, no question!


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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1056 - 10/12/06 at 14:20:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:17:58: Ender - no need to be negative. Actually I think ...Qb1 is a good posibillity here - of course I am not Rybka I'm only 2100 player, so I'm not even Crafty How about Qb1 Rxc6?

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Viking God Member Offline Posts: 673 Location: Norway Joined: 10/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1055 - 10/12/06 at 14:20:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	When will the eventual rapid/blitz games be played? Tomorrow?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1054 - 10/12/06 at 14:17:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hmmm.... Topalov has a draw in hand and is looking for a way to press for a win. Have we been here before?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1053 - 10/12/06 at 14:17:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ender - no need to be negative. Actually I think ...Qb1 is a good posibillity here - of course I am not Rybka


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1052 - 10/12/06 at 14:16:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	No run-away white kings?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1051 - 10/12/06 at 14:13:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Draw. I hope on an armageddon shoot-out. Kramnik loosing because he visits the toilet one time to often.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1050 - 10/12/06 at 14:13:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	So that's that, I guess. Odds on a repetition claim through the arbiter to avoid any speaking?! And bring the rapids on. Great double for Kirsan; the world championships decided in a blitz game AND - potentially - won by the player who lost over the board. Not to mention another dire blow to my firm's productivity, but there we are.


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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1049 - 10/12/06 at 14:11:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:08:11: http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=2Q5/p5pk/2p2r2/5p2/2RP2p... After 36...Qxh2 Draw? Rybka play check on f3, and then on h1. Draw. I hope Topalov will push too much and lose game

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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1048 - 10/12/06 at 14:11:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	maybe ...Qb1 is a try for Topalov if he doesnt take the draw


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1047 - 10/12/06 at 14:08:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=2Q5/p5pk/2p2r2/5p2/2RP2p1... After 36...Qxh2 Draw?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1046 - 10/12/06 at 14:06:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Come on Vlad, time to bale out. I don't fancy it after say Rb1; seems time to make a draw to me.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1045 - 10/12/06 at 14:03:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ender wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:59:52: OstapBender wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:58:22: I liked 34.Rxc4 dxc4 35.Bxc6, but haven't looked at this position enough to be sure. After exchange sac black is almost wining. But Bxc4 is still about equall. That bad, huh? I'm not surprised, but I'll have to take a look later to understand why.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1044 - 10/12/06 at 14:03:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:59:49: So Bxc4 dxc4; Rxc4 Qxh2; Rxc6 isn't called for, I guess?! Are we lining up for a repetition in that line? ...Qf3+/Qh1+ etc? Yes John, maybe White plays Rc5 in that line and then Black takes the draw, I cant see how he can push for more


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1043 - 10/12/06 at 14:03:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	35.Bxc4 dxc4 36.Ke2?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1042 - 10/12/06 at 14:01:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com is up again.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1041 - 10/12/06 at 14:01:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:59:49: So Bxc4 dxc4; Rxc4 Qxh2; Rxc6 isn't called for, I guess?! Are we lining up for a repetition in that line? ...Qf3+/Qh1+ etc? Rxc6 is impossible! Qh1+ . But simple Ke2 is good enough.

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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1040 - 10/12/06 at 14:01:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	No ...Qxh2 is coming - I have a feeling this will all fizzle out to a draw


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1039 - 10/12/06 at 14:00:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Rybka 2.1o mp 32-bit: 1. = (0.00): 35.Bxc4 dxc4 36.Qa6 Qxh2 37.Qxc4 Qh1+ 38.Kd2 Qf3 39.Qe2 Qd5 40.Qa6 Qf3 41.Qf1 Rh6

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1038 - 10/12/06 at 13:59:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:58:22: I liked 34.Rxc4 dxc4 35.Bxc6, but haven't looked at this position enough to be sure. After exchange sac black is almost wining. But Bxc4 is still about equall.

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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1037 - 10/12/06 at 13:59:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	So Bxc4 dxc4; Rxc4 Qxh2; Rxc6 isn't called for, I guess?! Are we lining up for a repetition in that line? ...Qf3+/Qh1+ etc?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1036 - 10/12/06 at 13:58:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Blimey isnt Rf6 losing a pawn for nothing?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1035 - 10/12/06 at 13:58:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	I liked 34.Rxc4 dxc4 35.Bxc6, but haven't looked at this position enough to be sure.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1034 - 10/12/06 at 13:54:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:49:45: ...Nc4! Gosh, keeping it complex then. But White's surely in time with Rb1, is he not - Black has to cover f5 before he can launch into h2. In time at least to save himself, that is. Indeed, Willempie, the vision! YEs who needs Susan Polgar for insightfull commentary. Not sure what to think now after Bf1

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1033 - 10/12/06 at 13:51:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Is exchange sac on c4 a possibility? Guess not. 34.Bf1 played.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1032 - 10/12/06 at 13:49:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	...Nc4! Gosh, keeping it complex then. But White's surely in time with Rb1, is he not - Black has to cover f5 before he can launch into h2. In time at least to save himself, that is. Indeed, Willempie, the vision!


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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1031 - 10/12/06 at 13:48:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:47:34: ..Nd2+; what's that about, I wonder. The speed they're playing you'd think they've seen a forced line the position's burning out to. Any 0.00s appearing on Rybka, Ender? Nd2+ Ke1 and now Rybka gives Nc4 Bf1. Still about equal (0,03). All of white counterplay is created on f5 weak pawn

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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1030 - 10/12/06 at 13:48:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	but after ..Nd2+ the Knight is coming to c4. Edit ... ok im slow


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1029 - 10/12/06 at 13:48:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=2Q5/p5pk/2p4r/3p1p1q/2nP2... After 33...Nc4

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1028 - 10/12/06 at 13:48:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am amazing. The knight does go to c4 in the end

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1027 - 10/12/06 at 13:47:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	..Nd2+; what's that about, I wonder. The speed they're playing you'd think they've seen a forced line the position's burning out to. Any 0.00s appearing on Rybka, Ender?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1026 - 10/12/06 at 13:47:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	How about Nd2+ followed by Nf3?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1025 - 10/12/06 at 13:46:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:43:40: OK, now this one I don't get. Is he planning 31...Qh5 32 Kf1, so that f5 hangs after a capture on h2? Kramnik's certainly moving awfully fast, which you'd think was a good sign. Ender, our hero! Please tell us what Rybka's saying after 31...Qh5, evaluation, etc. My english is not so good, so be patient After Nd2+ Rybka play Kf1 and slightly prefers white 0,03

	2200. Amateur!
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1024 - 10/12/06 at 13:45:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Interesting. Fritz and Crafty are now giving different evaluations. Crafty small white advantage whereas Fritz is giving black advantage.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1023 - 10/12/06 at 13:44:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, look at that. You post enough garbage and once in a while you're right.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1022 - 10/12/06 at 13:44:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nice call. 30...Qf7 31.Rc8 played.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1021 - 10/12/06 at 13:43:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK, now this one I don't get. Is he planning 31...Qh5 32 Kf1, so that f5 hangs after a capture on h2? Kramnik's certainly moving awfully fast, which you'd think was a good sign. Ender, our hero! Please tell us what Rybka's saying after 31...Qh5, evaluation, etc.


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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1020 - 10/12/06 at 13:43:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:41:13: Now I have to agree with Keano that Black looks better. I didn't understand Kramnik's decision to play 29.Qf8 though. Rybka says : After Qh5 white play Kf1 and position is about equal Don't forget pawn on f5 is attacked, so I'm not so optimistic on black chances here.

	2200. Amateur!
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1019 - 10/12/06 at 13:41:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Now I have to agree with Keano that Black looks better. I didn't understand Kramnik's decision to play 29.Qf8 though.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1018 - 10/12/06 at 13:40:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:37:30: Hmm. Maybe Black could do something with the queen on the queenside in the other line. I wonder if Kramnik's idea is to meet ...Qf7 now with the prophylactic Rc2? Or ...Qf7 31.Qc8, according to Rybka

	2200. Amateur!
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1017 - 10/12/06 at 13:40:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	I dont like either side

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1016 - 10/12/06 at 13:37:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hmm. Maybe Black could do something with the queen on the queenside in the other line. I wonder if Kramnik's idea is to meet ...Qf7 now with the prophylactic Rc2? Then after 30...Qh5 31 QXa7 Qxh2+ 32 Kf1 there's no ...Nd2+, so maybe Black's just shot his bolt on the kingside?


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1015 - 10/12/06 at 13:37:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Must admit I was worried about a queen appearing on H5 too. Very rare for me to agree with Keano ...


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1014 - 10/12/06 at 13:37:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	29.Qf8 Rxb8 30.Qxb8 played.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1013 - 10/12/06 at 13:35:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	28.Rf8 Rxb8 29.Qxb8 what am I missing after ...Qf7 How does white defend


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1012 - 10/12/06 at 13:34:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	I don't think White's going to play Rb1 now, allowing the deflection of the b8 rook to the first rank. I'm expecting Rxb7 and some queen thrust into Black's vitals. But don't ask me, ask Klick - he's the man with Crafty on the job.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1011 - 10/12/06 at 13:32:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:28:43: ...Rb7; excellent sign for White, surely? Once Black's trading pieces he'll surely find this rook on h6 quite hard to justify, won't he? Hopeful thinking John? I still like the plan of ...Qf7 - h5, what is happening there (assuming White plays Rb1 now)


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1010 - 10/12/06 at 13:30:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	After Black's 28th Crafty is giving 0.23

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1009 - 10/12/06 at 13:29:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=1R6/pr1q2pk/2p4r/3p1p2/3P... After 28...Rb7 Keano, I don't see how you can claim an advantage for Black here. I doubt White has serious winning chances, though.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1008 - 10/12/06 at 13:28:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	...Rb7; excellent sign for White, surely? Once Black's trading pieces he'll surely find this rook on h6 quite hard to justify, won't he?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1007 - 10/12/06 at 13:26:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	If worst comes to worst I think the endgames are also reasonable for Black here, so its clear something went wrong for Kramnik, or else he just didnt have much. Blacks position seems to have more potential, I think kramnik is playing to hold now.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1006 - 10/12/06 at 13:25:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	aha-cunning; Qf8 to trade queens if ...Qf7. Anyone got an engine running? I can't be doing with this thinking for myself.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1005 - 10/12/06 at 13:25:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Susan Polgar says the blog is unavaliable due to some Google-error (what has google got to do with blogspot?). She is trying to fix it, but regretably I am not sure it is within her powers to fix something like this before the game is over.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1004 - 10/12/06 at 13:23:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Looks like good choice from Topalov. Kramnik is well known to not like Bg2, in these f5 structures .... At least according to Seirwan the other day.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1003 - 10/12/06 at 13:23:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:20:02: Plan of bringing the Queen to h5 looks dangerous also..... White defends with h2-h4 and then ...gxh3 is answered by Kh2.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1002 - 10/12/06 at 13:23:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hmm. ...Qxh2+ isn't mate on its own, is it? Or is it - say 26...Rc7 27 Rcb1 Qf7 28 Rb7 Rxb7 29 Rxb7 Qh5 30 Qxa7 Qxh2+ 31 Kf1 Nd2+ 32 Ke2 Qxg2 looks possible; Rxg7+ doesn't do anything by itself and Black's next turn is devastating. Not clear throwing in Rb8+ helped, either. Wonder what White has in mind.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1001 - 10/12/06 at 13:20:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Plan of bringing the Queen to h5 looks dangerous also.....


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1000 - 10/12/06 at 13:16:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=2r3k1/p2q2p1/Q1p4r/3p1p2/... After 26.Qa6 Maybe 26...Rc7 then ...Qf7-h5?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #999 - 10/12/06 at 13:12:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	24...g4 played (I guess the other g-pawn will be pushed and major pieces will move to h-file) and then 25.Rb2. Looks like Kramnik changed his mind; he has wasted some time with his rooks here.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #998 - 10/12/06 at 13:11:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Everything seems really slow. This game must be really packing in the punters...


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #997 - 10/12/06 at 13:11:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	I disconnected for a while, looks like things are going according to plan for Topalov? The minority attack happened but c6 is well covered and there is good counterplay in any case. I think this game is a good example of a minority attack in and of itself alone is not good enough to win a game, there must be another dynamic factor also...


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #996 - 10/12/06 at 13:01:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	I can no longer access Susan Polgar's blog page. Live coverage also at: http://www.e3e5.com/eng/petersburg/competitions/article.html?254 Not updated as frequently as Susan Polgar's site, but good GM game commentary.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #995 - 10/12/06 at 13:00:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Is it only me that can't open Susan P's commentary?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #994 - 10/12/06 at 12:59:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=2r3k1/p2q2p1/2p2r2/3p1pp1... after 24.Rbc1 I expected 24.Qa6 instead. This looks less active, although I guess it ties Black down somewhat. Is Kramnik playing for a draw?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #993 - 10/12/06 at 12:58:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm not wild about this. Doubling on the c-file doesn't look very consequential. I find it hard to imagine that White is claiming to be better here, at least.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #992 - 10/12/06 at 12:54:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Scrap the d-file (the queen would ideally be on the e-file, but needs to cover c6 and g4 and the 7th rank), Topalov cant cover the e-file, which is imo very problematic.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #991 - 10/12/06 at 12:54:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	g4? Hmm, well it does look a little fresh, doesn't it? But I can imagine this idea being in the position: if the f-pawn does move then the possibility of taking on e4 and perhaps moving into an ending with Black's horrid pawns appears. And what evaluation does Crafty append?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #990 - 10/12/06 at 12:51:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Seems Topalov misses a rook as he cant cover the c, d, e and f-file at the same time.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #989 - 10/12/06 at 12:48:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yeah John, Crafty suggested g4 for white here, which frankly looks like nonsense.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #988 - 10/12/06 at 12:47:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	....Qd7; maybe Qe2 was connected to some ideas meeting ...f4 with Qg4?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #987 - 10/12/06 at 12:46:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/12/06 at 12:46:15: Anyone got, you know, a computer?? No I am posting here via stone tablets

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #986 - 10/12/06 at 12:46:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Anyone got, you know, a computer??


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #985 - 10/12/06 at 12:45:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	I like 22.Rab1 or 22.Qa6 here. It's a tricky position and it looks like Kramnik will have a long think here.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #984 - 10/12/06 at 12:41:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe Qe2 also envisions a possible Qa6 and Rb1-b7?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #983 - 10/12/06 at 12:37:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Gosh, Qe2. That must be part of some plan of containment - clearly Kramnik doesn't see his way in on the queenside straight off. I wonder what his next move is going to be, for example. How's he going to get the a1 rook playing? It's possible that Qe2 is a signal of some distress.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #982 - 10/12/06 at 12:33:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=2r2rk1/p3q1p1/2p5/3p1pp1/... White to move

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #981 - 10/12/06 at 12:33:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hell, need to go. Can’t be on line for 2 hrs. Will comeback and celebrate Kramnik’s win. Bye, folks.

	CastleRock
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #980 - 10/12/06 at 12:32:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/12/06 at 12:29:02: I suppose once ...f4 happens it's a question of tactics. Willempie, after Bxc4 dxc4 the new c-pawn isn't protected at all, surely? To make ...Nc4 work you need either ...b5 or ....Nb6 AND ...Nd6. And even then in my experience it doesn't normally help much. I think Keano's right, ...Rf6 and ...g5...f4. But is there time? It is easy to get carried away with White, true - what exactly is he going to do? Could be a very instructive game on the classic minority-attack -v- counterplay theme. Yes with b5 of course. It is now rather academic I guess. Yep we can see if the oldies are right

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #979 - 10/12/06 at 12:29:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Castlerock, in this specific position White has not got many pieces to defend the kingside, and no Knight - in any case ...g5 and ...f4 is looking very fast to me.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #978 - 10/12/06 at 12:29:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	I suppose once ...f4 happens it's a question of tactics. Willempie, after Bxc4 dxc4 the new c-pawn isn't protected at all, surely? To make ...Nc4 work you need either ...b5 or ....Nb6 AND ...Nd6. And even then in my experience it doesn't normally help much. I think Keano's right, ...Rf6 and ...g5...f4. But is there time? It is easy to get carried away with White, true - what exactly is he going to do? Could be a very instructive game on the classic minority-attack -v- counterplay theme.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #977 - 10/12/06 at 12:28:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/12/06 at 12:21:52: 19...Rac8 I like - the other rook needs to be free. I am beginning to like Black here - sometimes with White there is a danger to play too formulaic and then realise that there is something happening on the other side of the board also! Keano, you always like Topalov's position better! I agree Black could generate some kingside play by opening the f-file. It could get tense. Just the same, I think White has at least a slight edge here.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #976 - 10/12/06 at 12:22:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Keano …f4 is a standard motif in QGD exchange. Don’t you need some more minor pieces on the board so that black can generate king side attack using white’s lack of space? What is the follow up plan after …f4?

	CastleRock
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #975 - 10/12/06 at 12:22:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Me not like backward c-pawns

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #974 - 10/12/06 at 12:21:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	19...Rac8 I like - the other rook needs to be free. I am beginning to like Black here - sometimes with White there is a danger to play too formulaic and then realise that there is something happening on the other side of the board also!


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #973 - 10/12/06 at 12:18:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r4rk1/pp2q1p1/2p3p1/1P1p1... Black to move

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #972 - 10/12/06 at 12:17:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Susanpolgar-blog: Quote: GM Jon Levitt explains: "He wants ..Rf6 to defend c6 and ...g5...f4 xf2 for couterplay." An important note to state is Topalov is using nearly as much time as Kramnik. He knows this game is important. He cannot fool around by playing fast

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #971 - 10/12/06 at 12:16:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/12/06 at 12:10:07: You've lost me Willempie. Did you mean ...Nd6-c4? If so then White can easily get rid of that with Bf1, surely? Yep that is what I meant. Of course white can exchange there, but doesnt it give black a well protected passer?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #970 - 10/12/06 at 12:15:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think White players get carried away with these positions - Black allows the minority attack and simple recaptures with the b-pawn (I think with a rook on f6 he should be able to defend c6). Then is there not counterplay with the ...g5, ...f4 idea I mentioned. Just because a minority attack lands does not mean it is the end of the world


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #969 - 10/12/06 at 12:14:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes. I don't see Black being able to plug up the c-file with his knight. Keano's suggestion of ...g5 and ...f4 looks like a possibility, in which case the knight is good on e4.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #968 - 10/12/06 at 12:13:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Larry Christiansen doesn't think highly of Nd6-c4 suggesting an eventual exchange sac on c4 or the natural Bf1.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #967 - 10/12/06 at 12:10:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	You've lost me Willempie. Did you mean ...Nd6-c4? If so then White can easily get rid of that with Bf1, surely?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #966 - 10/12/06 at 12:09:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topalov castled kingside, so h-file based attack is off the books. Maybe he intends passive defense of c6-square (e.g., ...Rf6)? This doesn't seem like Topalov's style.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #965 - 10/12/06 at 12:08:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK, 18...00. So he's not going all-in. I was wondering how it was going to work if he did. But in that case clearly White's justified 00 and I would tentatively suggest he ought to be better. Wonder why Belyavsky didn't do this?!


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #964 - 10/12/06 at 12:08:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK I may be a bit daft, but what good does the minority attack do after b5, Ne6, Nc5?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #963 - 10/12/06 at 12:08:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	What about ...g5 and ...f4 as an idea!?


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #962 - 10/12/06 at 12:08:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, at this moment, Kibitzing is permitted, isn’t it? So I would like to think, off topic is permitted, till Topalov loses. Well, my initial impressions were the same except that I would like to insert, “who is strong enough” after “any one”. Hope to make a meaningful post in the relevant thread on Sunday. 18…00. Now, my comfort level with white’s position is improving.

	CastleRock
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #961 - 10/12/06 at 12:06:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	This could actually be an interesting game.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #960 - 10/12/06 at 12:01:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think White's queenside play (minority attack, c-file penetration) comes a lot faster than a black kingside attack. Doesn't it? I agree about Black's knight being a better minor piece, but he has no reasonable defense against b4-b5. Black could be in trouble here.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #959 - 10/12/06 at 12:00:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sorry, my intended readers. Kinda off topic, but anyway I guess anyone who wants to start building a main line repertoire with d4. I would like to think that people can benefit from the book at any grade even up to IM (I know one already who tells me he has), although clearly a player of that strength will find explanation he skips and theoretical gaps he resents, and perhaps weaker players will sometimes feel the theory's too deep for what happens in their games and that matters go unexplained which could have been.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #958 - 10/12/06 at 11:57:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm not alone - like I say Susie P doesn't understand it either! But clearly Kramnik thinks his play on the queenside will be enough to force Black to defend over there instead of delivering mate in the east. We'll see if he's right. It looks pretty critical already after 16...Nf6. Black has left it late to defend against the minority attack, I think. I am a child at defending against minority attacks, but I can't imagine any plan of defence involving ...Nf6. So it's going to be a question of how Black develops his counterplay on the kingside and whether he can get there in time. I'm not sure of the future for Black's king. If he's committing to counterplay then he needs the rook on h8, so I can't see him castling.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #957 - 10/12/06 at 11:49:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Greetings John. I thought, I didn’t understand 14.00 and thought, you were around to help. White is one defender short of h2. BTW, I managed to find a buyer for my underwear and received some books from Amazon yesterday. Starting out 1.d4 is one. My initial impression about that book is good. About it, later. Could you tell me, who your intended readers are?

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #956 - 10/12/06 at 11:48:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	This reminds me of a game Belyavsky-Yusupov given in one of Dvoretsky's books. The pawns were the same bar the doubled g-pawns, and the knight turned out better than the bishop. Susan P is making the same point that the knight's better than the bishop - you put it on e4/g4 and it's hard to drive away since f3 is so hideous. But the doubled g-pawns would make a difference if it came to an ending one day. OK, the e-pawn. I think contrary to the general blogging mood on the ones I look at (ie oh-God-a-couple-of-exchanges-usual-Kramnik-draw) we could see a very tense game here.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #955 - 10/12/06 at 11:43:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, here's a test to see if any of understands anything; which way is Topalov going to take back on d5? You'd think the e-pawn, but b4 and so on looks quite quick. Maybe the c-pawn after all?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #954 - 10/12/06 at 11:41:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	It's been surging for a while Keano, in a quiet sort of way. Susie P says 13...dxc4 (really?) or 13...Nf6 were more normal, and that she wouldn't have played 14 00 either. Maybe none of us understands anything?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #953 - 10/12/06 at 11:37:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	I dont know John - I thought the h-file is nothing for Black here but maybe something can be arranged later. As Black I am most worried here by the central breakthrough e4, although presumably Black can deal with this. All in all I think the opeining has been a reasonable success for Black. On a side note - after this match it looks like this Nh4 line is going to surge in popularity. 2 top guys in the world both coming to the conclusion in a critical match that it is their best chance for advantage!


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #952 - 10/12/06 at 11:33:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Mnb will be so happy. Finally a dutch structure

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #951 - 10/12/06 at 11:32:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	14 00. OK, now it's official. I definitely understand nothing. Isn't that the most vulnerable sector of the board for White's king? I wanted to be going 000 and if anything playing on the kingside.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #950 - 10/12/06 at 11:31:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well its certainly an interesting move - Topalov has taken a whole 11 minutes so far, which is a lot for him, so I think this is an over-the-board decision although he may have looked at similar ideas of course.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #949 - 10/12/06 at 11:26:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think Kramnik is winning after 13…f5. Even Keano’s kid sister can check mate Topalov, Now.

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #948 - 10/12/06 at 11:25:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	13...f5 I would never have played either! But now we look more I suppose it is playable...not so easy to get at the weaknesses


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #947 - 10/12/06 at 11:23:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe John, but I think I prefer to play this position as Black than the other ones where White has the 2 bishops


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #946 - 10/12/06 at 11:22:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	13....f5?!?!?! Jehoshaphat. That is a move. I understand nothing.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #945 - 10/12/06 at 11:20:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Is it a novelty? I can't see it catching on much - if Black wants this sort of solid slightly inferior position in this line he can always get it, you'd think. Although to be sure whether it catches on is going to depend on the result of this game. I wonder if we'll come to see this as the biggest single game in chess history? It could be the difference between the world championship coming to an effective end, or not.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #944 - 10/12/06 at 11:15:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	9...Bb4 looks a good novelty, Black is solid. We must be out of prep now so time to play chess!


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #943 - 10/12/06 at 11:11:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Less of the two-bishop thing, then. Topalov's gone solid. White surely ought to be reasonably happy with this. I know nothing about the theory of this - although presumably every d4 player's going to have to soon. Where's Inn2?? Although I seem to recall he reckons he'd never play this line as Black, so maybe he knows nothing either.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #942 - 10/12/06 at 11:09:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Greetings, castlerock. Tense day ahead. He's a monkey, that Topalov, isn't he? Difficult one to predict. On the whole though I don't think Kramnik should mind. He's always been a great two-bishop man, and of course it's just possible that here he has some interesting ideas. And he's not likely to get caught in any sharp prep himself. I hope.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #941 - 10/12/06 at 11:06:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	And I'm not comfortable.

	CastleRock
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #940 - 10/12/06 at 11:03:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Funny, Kramnik plays Topalov’s line.

	CastleRock
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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #939 - 10/12/06 at 10:21:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thats right by this stage don't just want a Kramnik win, but one as slow and painful as possible. Prefably one going to 150+ moves, with Topalov really losing the will to live...


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #938 - 10/12/06 at 05:36:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	If Topalov plays the Slav, Kramnik should whip out his 10 years of secret analysis and intense undercover training in the Exchange Slav and grind him down to woodchips. Work it, baby, work it!


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #937 - 10/12/06 at 04:22:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	from http://www.bennedik.de/ Quote: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 Kramnik-Topalov game twelve preview In game ten Topalov played the Catalan again, and Kramnik again reached a better position. I won't do analysis of concrete moves today - there is an excellent analysis of the game at chesspro.ru, where Mikhail Golubev replaces Peter Svidler, who is now playing at the European Club Cup. I think Topalov is somehow playing the Catalan when he wants to draw, and the Slav when he wants to win with Black. Game twelve is the last game in the match, and Kramnik has White. While I generally think Topalov should play for a draw and not risk too much, I can only recommend the Slav to him. Out of Topalov's four games with Black so far (not counting the forfeit), he played the Slav once, and the Catalan three times. Topalov has scored one point out of the Slav game, and half a point out of the three Catalan games together. He also had a good position out of the opening in the Slav game, but three times a worse position in the Catalan games. Enough said.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #936 - 10/12/06 at 01:44:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/12/06 at 00:55:46: IMJohnCox wrote on 10/11/06 at 23:23:18: On the other hand, the IHT, that noted chess journal, offers from the end of Malc's line... FOrgive my ignorance, but what is the IHT? International Herald Tribune


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #935 - 10/12/06 at 00:55:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/11/06 at 23:23:18: On the other hand, the IHT, that noted chess journal, offers from the end of Malc's line... FOrgive my ignorance, but what is the IHT?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #934 - 10/11/06 at 23:23:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	On the other hand, the IHT, that noted chess journal, offers from the end of Malc's line "44 Bf5 Rh2 45 Bh3 (not 45 Bc8, then 45 ... Rh4 46 Bb7 Rb4 47 Rb4 Nd3 48 Kd2 Nb4 49 Kc3 Nd5 50 Kd4 Ne7, when Black has a clear advantage) 45 ... Kg7 46 Kf1 Kg6 47 Bc8 Rh4 48 Bb7 f5 49 b5 cb 50 Rb5 Rc4 51 Bd5 Rc2, but White is struggling to draw here". Don't ask me, I'm only pasting. So, any advance on my prediction of another Meran?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #933 - 10/11/06 at 13:34:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/11/06 at 13:13:47: 40…Rg2 but that after 41 Bd4 Be5 42 Bxe5 Nxe5 43 f6 gxf6 (43…g6 44 Ra3) 44 Bc8. I think you mean 44.Bf5 with Bc8 to follow. Watching the game (without engine running ) I thought 40...Rg2 looked like the only try but, obviously, I didn't think through all relevant specific lines. The b7-pawn is the Achilles heal in Black's position and Pein's suggested pawn sac to get the bishop on c8 makes sense.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #932 - 10/11/06 at 13:13:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	On the last game, Malcolm Pein says in his TWIC notes that ‘many commentators and even strong players who were letting their engines think for them’ (ooh, get you, Malc!) were shouting for 40…Rg2 but that after 41 Bd4 Be5 42 Bxe5 Nxe5 43 f6 gxf6 (43…g6 44 Ra3) 44 Bc8 White is fine. Blindfold I’d say he probably has a point.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #931 - 10/11/06 at 08:03:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ah I forgot there was a rest day today Ah well, will just have to wait until tomorrow. Actually I think it makes sense, as due to the do or die importance of the last 2 games it makes sense to have a rest day in between. I cant remember but was there a rest day in the K-K match where Karpov won the penultimate game and Kasparov came back and won the final game - I seem to remember Kasparov having to play the very next day after losing but I could be wrong.


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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #930 - 10/11/06 at 06:32:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Scholar wrote on 10/07/06 at 04:50:21: The revised schedule is as follows: October 3 - rest day October 4 - Game 7 Topalov-Kramnik October 5 - Game 8 Kramnik-Topalov October 6 - rest day October 7 - Game 9 Topalov-Kramnik October 8 - Game 10 Kramnik-Topalov October 9 - Rest day October 10 - Game 11 Topalov-Kramnik October 11 - Rest day October 12 - Game 12 Kramnik - Topalov October 13 - Tiebreaks and Closing Ceremony Anyone know why there is an extra rest day before the last game? This was there even in the original schedule, so it's not the result of anything funny.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #929 - 10/11/06 at 01:36:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	@John Cox - Sundarajan is his name. He is a 2500+ IM now. with 2 GM norms I guess. He used to be Sasikiran's preparation partner. He's also from Madras

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #928 - 10/10/06 at 22:19:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Blimey! Thingy?? That's not what I wrote. Let's just settle for a Wastwater, the traditional way round this problem on climbing forums.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #927 - 10/10/06 at 22:17:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Oh it's not formally Sofia rules, by the way. Just Topalov said that in a press conference (part of his usual look-at-me I'm-such-a-fighter posturing. God, he's a thingy. But I digress). Since everyone knows what opening Kramnik's going to play, in a way Topalov has the psychological initiative on Thursday. I'm sure he needs to go active and keep the chance of winning in one go. Another semi-Slav is my prediction. And this time let's hope Kramnik either has some decent preparation (which I guess he obviously doesn't or we'd have seen it by now) or else plays sensibly and keeps the draw in hand. I was talking to a GM last night who made an interesting point: Vallejo and Onischuk are weaker than Motylev and Rublevsky, but perhaps they are more useful as openings helpers. They have wider repertoires and are perhaps more creative players. You'd think Motylev was brought in for the Petroff and Rublevsky for the QGA, but we've not seen the QGA hardly at all. Kramnik used to be very good at rapid. I wonder if he still is. Topalov's never made very good scores at it, but then was he trying? They do say rapid is where general understanding and intuition come into it, and there Kramnik definitely has the edge. On the other hand if he does get caught in some prep in his Black game it could more easily be fatal in a rapid game. On the whole I think Kramnik should fancy rapids more. Of course nerves and energy come into it too: it's one thing who woud be favourite over 100 games. But I think it's clear Kramnik absolutely must try and keep the draw in hand if he can, and it would be nice if just for once it was him who caught Topalov in the opening. Did he have any single new idea prepared for this match?? Of course Topalov had the advantage of him there in that Kramnik will still be suffering the effects of that ridiculous e4 phase. He won't have had half so many ideas stored up.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #926 - 10/10/06 at 22:08:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Castlerock: thanks. But it's Pentala Harikrishna and Humpy Koneru! No wonder we poor westerners can't manage. It's a good job all the Indians I've met have been very good humoured about it. There's a chap who played at the Isle of Man two years in a row called something like Kidambi Sundarajan. I'm sure the first year he wrote K Sundarajan on his scoresheet and the next S Kidambi. Good point about Short-Krasenkow (do I remember it? I nearly died laughing). Of course Short was genuinely winning. Not sure how much of a difference that makes.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #925 - 10/10/06 at 20:03:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	from http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt/2006/10/kramniktopalov_g11.htm Quote: Kasparov: "29.Bxe6 fxe6 30.Rb3 with an eventual b5. Maybe not real winning chances for White, but Black has some problems and b7 is weak. White can play for win with no risk. Can you imagine facing Karpov with white in that position?"

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #924 - 10/10/06 at 18:31:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think Kramnik has agreed to play tie-breaks, and will demand that Game 5 be replayed only if needed to determine the legitimate winner of the match. I expect he will sue FIDE in any event. from http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3416 Quote: After being forfeited on game five Vladimir Kramnik reluctantly agreed to play game six and thus allow the World Championship match to continue. But will he accept the result, and play a tie-break if the match ends 6-6 according to FIDE counting (6-5 according to Kramnik's)?
	« Last Edit: 10/10/06 at 19:56:34 by OstapBender »
	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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ErictheRed God Member Offline USCF National Master Posts: 2534 Location: USA Joined: 10/02/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #923 - 10/10/06 at 17:00:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	What happens if the last game is a draw, given that Kramnik disputes Game 5? Do you think they'll go to tie-breaks, or will Kramnik demand that game 5 is replayed?


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #922 - 10/10/06 at 16:26:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	No matter what. If Topalov wins, the title will be tainted. If Kramnik wins, world is lucky.

	CastleRock
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #921 - 10/10/06 at 16:20:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Remember the last game of Kramnik-Leko ?

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #920 - 10/10/06 at 16:16:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	One thing is clear though, the last 2 games have seen much of Topalov´s momentum in the match grind to a halt. He must be concerned now, as I mentioned before - White in the last game of the match is a big plus for Kramnik- it can be easier to win these games than games in the middle of the match primarily because of the big burden and tension of the situation. How many times have we seen it before? At the same time he´ll have to remember that he managed to lose as White before also


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #919 - 10/10/06 at 16:06:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Finally.... I wonder who offered? Maybe Topalov finally got fed up and offered himself.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #918 - 10/10/06 at 16:02:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Draw

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #917 - 10/10/06 at 15:56:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe they will play the 50 moves but Topalov wont claim because it would be a sign of weakness! No, sorry this is just ridiculous now - can the ref step in


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #916 - 10/10/06 at 15:51:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sure. It's dead drawn.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #915 - 10/10/06 at 15:50:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well if its not Sofia rules then this is just embarrassing. It is a World Ch match after all


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #914 - 10/10/06 at 15:47:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/10/06 at 15:40:04: I dont think this match is Sofia rules - is it I've heard that Sofia rules are in effect here, but I can't find comfirmation of this at the official site (or elsewhere). For example there is no mention of Sofia rules regarding draw offers in the official Regulations of the Match which can be found at: http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1081
	« Last Edit: 10/10/06 at 20:17:38 by OstapBender »
	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #913 - 10/10/06 at 15:47:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Cox, Do you remember Short-Krasenkov - 120.Re6?? An important lesson in chess psychology.

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #912 - 10/10/06 at 15:43:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	well in my part of the woods its up to the player with the nominal advantage (Kramnik) to make the offer


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #911 - 10/10/06 at 15:42:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe neither wants to make the offer

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #910 - 10/10/06 at 15:40:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	I dont think this match is Sofia rules - is it Surely its time for Kramnik to offer a draw, sure he needs a rest himself for tommorrow I would have thought, and it doesnt exactly expend any energy on Topalovs part to play this out


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #909 - 10/10/06 at 15:38:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Am I the only one who thinks Sofia turns short boring games into long boring games? But wouldn't it discourage GMs from going for short boring games if they'll have suffer for it ?


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #908 - 10/10/06 at 15:37:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/10/06 at 13:46:26: Castlerock, does that mean if Anand has children they'd be Anand Something? So there's no 'family' name carried down from generation to generation (beyond one generation, that is). Yes. It is much more complex than that. For example in the neighbouring state they go by village name followed by their own name. No father's name. No family name. Pentala, Koneru and Dronavalli are neither their names nor father's names. Their names are Harikrishna, Humpy and Harika respectively.

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #907 - 10/10/06 at 15:37:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, I’ll definitely take that up. As a friend of mine used to say when we were younger, ‘I’m not 25-1 with the Queen of England.’


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #906 - 10/10/06 at 15:36:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Is it really Sofia rules? I thought it was insulting to play this on surely they should be allowed to call it quits now if so.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #905 - 10/10/06 at 15:34:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Or, perhaps a more challenging market, a spread on the move length. After everything that's happened it wouldn't surprise me to see Kramnik take it all the way. I'll offer 75-78. Am I the only one who thinks Sofia turns short boring games into long boring games?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #904 - 10/10/06 at 15:33:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/10/06 at 15:31:34: So what odds are you offering me against a Black win? 1 million to one!


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #903 - 10/10/06 at 15:32:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	From SP's blog: Quote: VT: In case you haven’t noticed, we are playing by Sofia rules: there were no draws without playing. This is the only way to make tournaments more exciting. In my opinion, FIDE should introduce this rule in all major tournaments. So it will end with a perpetual or a 50 move rule...


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #902 - 10/10/06 at 15:31:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	So what odds are you offering me against a Black win?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #901 - 10/10/06 at 15:29:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes my little sister might have trouble against Kramnik - I think shed end up with R v R+B and not know how to defend it Seriously though, in the local weekend congress I have no trouble playing this on, but this is the World Ch!


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #900 - 10/10/06 at 15:27:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Still so confident, Keano? You need to find a good post for the bishop to defend that pawn, but if e6 then it gets in the way and if the king gets driven to the back rank it’s not impossible to imagine some R and B v R attack. The bishop might obstruct both the second-rank stalemate defence and the check-from-the-back defence. To be honest (and don’t headbutt me now!) I do think Kramnik would have your little sister from this position, unless you’re an elder sibling in the Hunt family, perhaps. But to be sure I expect Topalov will hold on.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #899 - 10/10/06 at 15:22:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	I´d always play R+4 v Rook +3 on, but this is just dead.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #898 - 10/10/06 at 15:18:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, he is a pawn up (or will be soon). I saw Keith Arkell win a similar ending without a plus pawn at the Isle of Man. I had R and four v R and 3 on the same side once against Smyslov, back when I was a kid and he was descending out of the clouds to play at Lloyds Bank. I gave him the draw - it was in the days of adjournments and I didn't think it was right to drag a legend back to defend that sort of thing in the evening, when it was such a privilege to play him anyway. Wise decision - to judge from my recent effort against Kiriakov at IoM I'd probably have lost.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #897 - 10/10/06 at 15:14:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	true John but not this - my little sister could draw this one...maybe


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #896 - 10/10/06 at 15:12:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nonsense, they often play these out in matches. It’s tiring defending them and not so tiring being in the driving seat. Folk have played R & N –v- R for 50 moves, R gh –v- h, and so on.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #895 - 10/10/06 at 15:10:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Entertaining flame war on SP between Kamsky and Short concerning the 1994 match. Both GMs rehearsing their positions about as you’d expect (Kamsky's an exceptionally witty occasional blogger). Really quite parallel to the present match.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #894 - 10/10/06 at 15:09:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ah John come on - this is a World Ch match, playing this on is getting embarrassing now


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #893 - 10/10/06 at 15:07:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik obviously determined to have his torturing fun. Even this can be quite annoying if White plays a few very loose moves, but of course it'll be a draw here. Although I'm sure they're VERY tired and stuff does happen.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #892 - 10/10/06 at 15:06:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sofia Rules? - nobody wants to offer a draw


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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #891 - 10/10/06 at 15:06:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/10/06 at 15:04:16: ender- Rb6 and Be4 wins back the c6 pawn, I think. White can win f5 but I don't see the trick to win h5, and anyway it's still a draw if he does win it. Yeah I miss it. Sorry

	2200. Amateur!
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #890 - 10/10/06 at 15:04:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	ender- Rb6 and Be4 wins back the c6 pawn, I think. White can win f5 but I don't see the trick to win h5, and anyway it's still a draw if he does win it.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #889 - 10/10/06 at 15:00:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK, well b5 does it look like it forces a liquidation. I'm a little surprised Kramnik couldn't have prevented that, but anyway. At least I'll catch my tube, and the good guy's held with Black and only has to avoid defeat with White to retain his title in the eyes of all right-thinking people.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #888 - 10/10/06 at 15:00:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/10/06 at 14:57:10: I'm tempted to offer you to play it out OTB for a bet, Keano! 'Course it's odds-on a draw, I agree. But I'm expecting at least a modicum of suffering to be inflicted. John i dont think there is even play in it - how do you avoid a liquidation of the queenside pawns - after that White can give up a kingside pawn no problem - theres nothing left in this


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Ender Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 408 Joined: 05/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #887 - 10/10/06 at 14:58:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/10/06 at 14:54:45: John if Kramnik wins that it will be a miracle - simple Draw! What's wrong with 45..Rc4 ? How white gonna protect the pawn?

	2200. Amateur!
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #886 - 10/10/06 at 14:57:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nevertheless a good result for Kramnik today - it is all set up for him now - White in the last game tommorrow


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #885 - 10/10/06 at 14:57:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm tempted to offer you to play it out OTB for a bet, Keano! 'Course it's odds-on a draw, I agree. But I'm expecting at least a modicum of suffering to be inflicted.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #884 - 10/10/06 at 14:54:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	John if Kramnik wins that it will be a miracle - simple Draw!


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #883 - 10/10/06 at 14:52:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=8/1p3pp1/2p2k2/2Pr1P1P/1P... after 44.Kf3 Looking drawish.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #882 - 10/10/06 at 14:52:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, she reckons 'we're heading for a drawn opposite coloured bishop ending'. She may be right but down where I play we'd be expecting a long hard struggle. Maybe these guys have the technique just to hold this easily. I'm still giving Kramnik 20% chance to win.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #881 - 10/10/06 at 14:49:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK, so that's how he wants to do it; trades and just brings the king to f6 before trying to win anything. This sort of endgame is utter purgatory to defend; probably Topalov CAN draw this but he's in for a long hard afternoon/evening. Karpov won a lot of games in similar positions. Extremely curious. Susie P is fairly Topalov biased, but even so...


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #880 - 10/10/06 at 14:45:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	In fact actually I'm not sure what VK did have in mind here. I don’t see how he’s going to engineer winning the h-pawn while keeping control in an opposite coloured bishop ending (b5 x c6 and Rb6 looks rather a nuisance). And his pieces have wandered a little out of position otherwise. So unless he just wants to regroup and keep playing maybe he’s going to have to give it up as a draw now. Wonder why not 40...Rg2?


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #879 - 10/10/06 at 14:44:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hoping still to win with 41Bf2 is a curious comment, after 41...NxB is a opposite bishop drawn, even if a pawn drops off isn't it?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #878 - 10/10/06 at 14:39:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 10/10/06 at 14:35:08: IMJohnCox wrote on 10/10/06 at 14:32:47: OK, ….Rd5. So we know nothing. He still forces the exchange, and I guess the rook is handy on d5 perhaps to stop b5. He’d like to keep the b4 weakness if he can. Going to be a long afternoon, vexingly probably decided while I am on a tube train between 5 and 6 pm our time… I have the same problem. But I already sent an email to Kirsan asking if he can lock the bathrooms again so that Kramnik will move faster so that I can follow the finish

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #877 - 10/10/06 at 14:38:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Bf2 - of course he wants the knight for his bishop not the bishop. But Vlad's a clever lad - he must have seen that. Although SP's Bxh2 Nxh2; Rd3 was tempting; if the knight captures on h4 it's trapped of course. Any clever chap out there with a machine? I think the two of them must be terribly tired; according to the pundits they've not played this well at all, either of them. SP thinks Topalov's still trying to win with Bf2; I find that a surprising suggestion.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #876 - 10/10/06 at 14:35:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/10/06 at 14:32:47: OK, ….Rd5. So we know nothing. He still forces the exchange, and I guess the rook is handy on d5 perhaps to stop b5. He’d like to keep the b4 weakness if he can. Going to be a long afternoon, vexingly probably decided while I am on a tube train between 5 and 6 pm our time… I have the same problem. But I already sent an email to Kirsan asking if he can lock the bathrooms again so that Kramnik will move faster so that I can follow the finish

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #875 - 10/10/06 at 14:32:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK, ….Rd5. So we know nothing. He still forces the exchange, and I guess the rook is handy on d5 perhaps to stop b5. He’d like to keep the b4 weakness if he can. Going to be a long afternoon, vexingly probably decided while I am on a tube train between 5 and 6 pm our time…


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #874 - 10/10/06 at 14:32:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/10/06 at 14:28:48: Ostap; I'm not sure Topalov IS still a bad move away from losing; I think it possible he's objectively lost - but let's say you're right, he still needs a masive trend reversal, and that's the hardest thing in the game. Still, he held game 7 in similar circumstances, although I think he's much worse off here. I certainly agree regarding the trend reversal; psychologically very difficult to have to fight for a draw after watching a superior (although just slightly) position slip away.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #873 - 10/10/06 at 14:29:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes 40...Rg2 is logical. But Kramnik has been thinking for a few minutes now. What else is possible?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #872 - 10/10/06 at 14:28:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	40 Ke1 but still Black can force the trade I think 40...Rg2 41 Bd4 Be5, perhaps. Sue P says White has a tough task to hold but it's doable. I'm sure she knows better than me but I'd say White'll be lucky if he manages that. Ostap; I'm not sure Topalov IS still a bad move away from losing; I think it possible he's objectively lost - but let's say you're right, he still needs a masive trend reversal, and that's the hardest thing in the game. Still, he held game 7 in similar circumstances, although I think he's much worse off here.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #871 - 10/10/06 at 14:27:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ah I see I missed Rg2

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #870 - 10/10/06 at 14:26:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Doesnt that get the rook into trouble and consequently the knight?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #869 - 10/10/06 at 14:22:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	39...Bh2 played, then 40.Ke1: http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=5k2/1p3pp1/2p5/2P2P2/1P4n... *current position*

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #868 - 10/10/06 at 14:19:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nothing tactical - she just likes ...Bh2 trading the bishop and leaving the massive e5 knight against the terrible bishop and the split pawns. I'm inclined to agree - that looks dire for White. I am daring to hope that justice may be served.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #867 - 10/10/06 at 14:18:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	I checked and it seems hard to avoid the opposite coloured bishops

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #866 - 10/10/06 at 14:15:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/10/06 at 14:10:40: This game could be in Rowson's next book under Trends. You refer to the dramatic momentum shift? It's amazing how this game seems to be slipping away from Topalov, but he's still at least a bad move away from losing, no?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #865 - 10/10/06 at 14:10:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yikes, 39 Bg1 loses according to Susie P, though she doesn't give a line yet and I don't see one offhand. This game could be in Rowson's next book under Trends.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #864 - 10/10/06 at 14:08:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hmm, I think White's in grave danger here. There's no way you'd sell Kramnik for 9%. Incidentally, another very courageous opening choice by Kramnik. He's really stood up and fought in this match, even if you say Topalov forced him to it.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #863 - 10/10/06 at 14:05:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Black very active, but I don't see immediate danger for White so maybe this activity is mosty "optical" - in any event, Kramnik seems to be doing well. Draw still likely, but a win for Black would be SO nice! Topalov has really misplayed this endgame, hasn't he?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #862 - 10/10/06 at 14:04:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hmm seems I am not the only chap with problems with his endgame technique Still I dont see much happening here.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #861 - 10/10/06 at 13:59:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm with Tyomkin, in fact I'm not sure I wouldn't give it more than 9%. White's got outplayed recently. The e5 knight is hardly inferior to the c4 bishop unless White can get in a break. Black's annoyingly active and he's also solid. If Topalov doesn't get a grip he might go down here: it's time to stop fooling about moving fast, dig in, and play some good moves.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #860 - 10/10/06 at 13:58:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik's pieces gaining some activity. I think White can no longer claim an advantage. In fact, I'd say maybe Black has a slight edge now.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #859 - 10/10/06 at 13:53:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	I would have made another bet: 90% Draw 9% Topalov 1%Kramnik. Even if the f-pawn should fall, Kramnik will hardly be in a position to convert an extra pawn against the bishop pair.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #858 - 10/10/06 at 13:48:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	From playchess.com server: Quote: GM Tyomkin says: " Kramnik is definitely safe here, my betting line is 90% for the draw, 9% for Kramnik's win and 1% for Topalov's win [Danailov locks Kramnik in WC].)

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #857 - 10/10/06 at 13:46:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Not sure where Topalov's going with this. f5 doesn't seem to be getting much approval. Let's hope for some Sofia Rules overpressing - it's the sort of position where that can happen if you're not careful. Castlerock, does that mean if Anand has children they'd be Anand Something? So there's no 'family' name carried down from generation to generation (beyond one generation, that is).


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #856 - 10/10/06 at 13:26:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Definitely predicting a draw here - big relief after a quick glance in the opening saw Kramnik repeating this and Topalov with another new plan. I guess the good thing about repeating openings is you get to see the guy's second-best plan, whereas a new opening you may get his best one!


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #855 - 10/10/06 at 13:12:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	26 g4 it is starting to look like some pressure.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #854 - 10/10/06 at 12:55:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	f1?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #853 - 10/10/06 at 12:50:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	23...Ra4 played with threat ...Bxc5. Where does White's bishop go?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #852 - 10/10/06 at 12:49:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	So how is black going to challenge the d-file?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #851 - 10/10/06 at 12:46:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Some comments from Rowson at the playchess.com server: Quote: Rowson (Observers): Draw 75%, T win 7% K win 15%, D-factor 3% (Danailov has been quiet for the last few days) Rowson (Observers): If needs be, Black can even park the knight on b5 because White risks being worse if he takes, and if he doesn't the hops to a3 and c3 could be annoying

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #850 - 10/10/06 at 12:43:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	I would have thought White can still squeeze here with the two bishops, but he has to be careful not to allow tricks with the Knight. Still its a pleasant position to be able to play for White, a good test for Kramnik now of how well he is playing - if he has assessed this correctly and draws comfortably I will be impressed. I am off to lunch now so hopefully by time I come back all will be resolved


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #849 - 10/10/06 at 12:41:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	White is better if anyone in the endgame, but think black should hold quite easily. Can't see how white can make progress, without allowing large numbers of pawns to be exchanged.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #848 - 10/10/06 at 12:41:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	hmm this looks rather nasty for black. Of course Kramnik's endgame is slightly better than mine so it may be that he holds easily, but I dont see it.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #847 - 10/10/06 at 12:41:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hmm... I didn't expect the endgame to begin with 22...0-0. Again I think White might have a slight edge (bishop pair/pawn structure), but it doesn't look like much. Black's control of the a-file and the knight at d4 look like good assets. Game not over yet, but I expect a draw here.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #846 - 10/10/06 at 12:39:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	MarinFan wrote on 10/10/06 at 12:13:59: It was atually a different Nh4 line, in pure slav. (Excuse me if was just being jokey). I was jokey, but of course I never pay much attention to such minor details as a different 4th move

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #845 - 10/10/06 at 12:33:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	wow 18...Ne4, I would have thought on principle not to open up the position for the 2 bishops, but maybe Kramnik has assesed the position as OK for him, or maybe he just didnt like allowing f4-f5


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #844 - 10/10/06 at 12:29:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	I just tuned in to the game. Looks to me like White has a space advantage, but Black seems to be OK (maybe slightly worse). At the very least, I think we will not see a repeat of the game 9 rout.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #843 - 10/10/06 at 12:27:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	I was thinking Topalovs plan was simple Be3,Bd3 and then f5 - BUT Kramnik can revert to the Kamsky plan then ...Nh5, ...f5, and the king has a nice square on f7. The next few moves must be critical, if something like this can happen Kramnik must be fine....


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #842 - 10/10/06 at 12:22:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hard to imagine Kramnik can keep the king in the centre indefinitely though, but Topalov needs to arrange some action - I suppose ideally he wants to play f4-f5 but to be able to recapture with the Bishop.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #841 - 10/10/06 at 12:18:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Positionally White might want to play 18.b5 now, but then maybe the ...Nxc5 trick comes. Looks like he´ll have to consolidate things first.


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #840 - 10/10/06 at 12:16:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	At least Kramnik trying to use the developed Rh8 this time, 0.0 was a very bad sign in last game.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #839 - 10/10/06 at 12:15:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	17...Qd7 looks a normal move, maybe intending ...Bd8-c7 so he can contest the e-file with a rook eventually. Maybe its not so bad, still it seems like not an easy position for Black to play.


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #838 - 10/10/06 at 12:13:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	It was atually a different Nh4 line, in pure slav. (Excuse me if was just being jokey).


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #837 - 10/10/06 at 12:11:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Only the c1 bishop is a bit in the way, for the rest white looks much better at least optically. PS wasnt there some major argument a while back that Khalifman had "copped out" with his choice of the Nh4 slave in the Kramnik opening books, because that wasnt the critical line? I guess these two put that out of the way with Kramnik completely neutralising Ne5 and having trouble against Nh4

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #836 - 10/10/06 at 12:10:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	hmmm...the Kamsky plan looked interesting, but doubtful now with the Knight on e6. This looks like more good prep from Topalov team to me (Vallejo again?) as White has breaks on both sides of the board and good long-term plans. I just dont know why the Kramnik team decided to go into this again - well they obviously were expecting a3 again, but still.


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #835 - 10/10/06 at 12:05:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well Keano it would not suprise me if you are right, it is just that I am a typical medocre club player who likes development. Probably why Ricard Pallister didnot recommend this Nh4 line, in his 1d4! book. Kramnik has gone for Nf8-e6, which I was looking at. Kamsky on ICC preferred Nh5 with f5 to follow.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #834 - 10/10/06 at 12:05:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	15...Nf8!? But will the Knight be secure on e6?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #833 - 10/10/06 at 12:01:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Where is John? - Kramnik should have taken his advice and played QGD! This looks very unpleasant, and he cannot afford to get squashed in a childish manner like the other game, so the next 10 moves are critical...


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #832 - 10/10/06 at 11:54:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	MarinFan - I´d have to disagree - I cannot see much counterplay for Black here - meanwhile White has the two bishops and it is Black who will have the problem with the king - qside is out, and after going kside there are the eventual pawn breaks f5 or h5, but the main problem I see is lack of counterplay. I suppose with the a-file he can try to trade rooks, but even this I cannot see happening.


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #831 - 10/10/06 at 11:49:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Looks like Kramnik has done a good job against the new plan with Rb1. Not sure what white is aiming for, and all blacks pieces active, and the white king a little insecure. Probably equal, but would prefer black. Topalov has big time advantage again though...


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #830 - 10/10/06 at 11:47:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK castlerock I understand where you are coming from, although I´m not sure Kramnik will have much choice but to accept whatever comes should he win!? Would be interesting to see what happens. Personally I know this is controversial but after seeing San Luis I would not object to a tournament like this every few years, but I´m not sure about it - death of the old match-play system would be sad. Anyway thats anothers day talk! For now the game has started and I am surprised Kramnik has gone in for this line again - it gives Topalov the type of position he is looking for.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #829 - 10/10/06 at 11:40:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Keano. There is no question. Topalov from San Luis onwards is playing exciting chess. I have a theory wrt this. But, about it some other time. It is also true that it he has had better position in more number of games. But none of this matter, imho. I simply love Kramnik’s brand of positional play better than Topalov’s flamboyant style. But even this is not the reason why I root for Kramnik. Not even the pathetic behavior of Topalov I feel sorry for chess professionals. I wouldn’t want my son to be a chess pro. Why? Do you know anything about those big money matches in the past? $2.5 mil prize fund and matches in empire state building? Today we have matches in Kalmikiya for 1 mil less fide tax? Where have they gone? Do you have any idea? If a 2500 GM has to earn a living, Top 100 should be well off and top ten should be filthy rich. For this we need big money matches. We need World Champions in Steinitz tradition. With Kasparov gone, the responsibility is with Anand, Topalov and Kramnik. Anand is a fence sitter and Topalov is pro Kirsan. Even the remotest hope to revive match tradition and hope will evaporate if Topalov holds the unified title under fide auspices. That’s the reason why I said, "Any other come back would be disastrous to the beleaguered chess world."

	CastleRock
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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #828 - 10/10/06 at 11:14:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Can't believe Kramnik has allowed 6Nh4 line again, though would go for a semi-slav. Should be better prepared this time though...


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #827 - 10/10/06 at 09:56:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock - not offended at all, everyone is entitled to their opinion, although personally your one that "Any other come back would be disastrous to the beleaguered chess world." I would have to entirely disagree with. Mind you it all depends what happens in these 2 critical games, but so far Kramnik in my opinion has done nothing to show that he has recovered his form to that required of a World Ch. I resist the temptation to bring up past issues with Kramniks behaviour, since I want to concentrate on the chess but if you check other threads my opinions are well documented regarding what I believe has been Kramniks disgraceful behaviour since the Kasparov match. Anyway lets try and stick to the chess here, if you dont like Topalov fair enough, but you have to admit his chess in San Luis and since has been a breath of fresh air.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #826 - 10/10/06 at 09:00:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/10/06 at 08:06:55: I hope Topalov comes back! With another accusation. Or at the minimum, with another interview that boasts a public relations IQ of 70. That would be fun. Any other come back would be disastrous to the beleaguered chess world. Another point of interest would be, whether Topalov is going to feel like crying during the game, thinking of his missed chances, as he has done during game 4 (or is it 3) and then went on to open the toilet. Lol. @Keano - It's too good to pass it up. Nothing personal. I'm sorry, if you felt offended. That's not my intention.

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #825 - 10/10/06 at 08:06:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Congrats to Kramnik also, but I hope Topalov comes back! - he has had the initiative throughout the match, although the blunders are very worrying. Anyway it is do or die for both now... Predictions for today: another Slav? If so will Topalov go for the same move order allowing ...Bf5, will Kramnik repeat this line and play against the two Bishops? Personally I think not, as it is the type of position that Topalov can nurse for a long time... So, a QGA is possible, or maybe a good old QGD as John has been suggesting!? I think Kramnik shouldnt have too much trouble to draw against the Bf4 line. We will see


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #824 - 10/10/06 at 00:01:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, 24...f6 lost. Yes, at the World Championship level it's a blunder. But for all these people with their computers running at full speed, I wonder how many would have been able to punish Topalov for his mistake. Ok, so in this case, most GMs spotted the mistake fairly quickly. Although I would have played differently than Kramnik did at several points (and thereby given Topalov more chances than Kramnik did), I think I might have been able to win. But the more likely outcome would have been that I would use up too much of my time, and accepting a draw in a winning position around move 35. Congrats to Kramnik, and I hope his Lazarus act will carry through so that he wins in regulation! Cheers.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #823 - 10/09/06 at 17:23:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	We are making it totally off topic. I tried moving our litle chat under a suitable subject. Too dumb to figure out now. 1) India is a predominently a right wing country. Both the ruling and opposition have right of the centre ideology and often the opposition does not know how to oppose the govt policies. We don't use the abbreviation, though. 2) Yes. Her vernacular intervies have been quite forthright, unlike Anand's 3) Viswanathan is in fact his father's name! Actually the community he (and I) belongs to does not use the family name. A generation before it used to be the native village name, father's name and first name in that order. Nowadays t's just father's name followed by first name. His wife will be called Mrs.Aruna Anand. This is just south indian practice. In rest of the country the nomenclature is like any other place. If you want a western nomenclature, he might be called Anand V. Iyer. Finally, "differentially abled"did not mean physically challenged. In crude terms Vidhya Sagar is an organisation taking care of spastic children. Still a funny phrase, though.
	« Last Edit: 10/10/06 at 02:40:58 by castlerock »
	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #822 - 10/09/06 at 16:51:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	"Politically correct". A common right-wing abbreviation here. I didn't mean to get at Anand at all, rather a mild jibe at the (to my reactionary mind) absurd term 'differently abled' to describe, I take it, those people we used to call 'disabled'. His wife? Really - I always thought she was very retiring. How does Indian nomenclature work btw? I know Viswanathan is Anand's family name and Anand his given name, so that his brothers (if he was any) are called Viswanathan something rather than something Anand. How does it work with wives?


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #821 - 10/09/06 at 16:25:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/09/06 at 11:13:58: Castlerock – thanks for that link: “the differently abled”, love it. Didn’t realise PC had reached India. My pleasure. Unfortunately he has always held the view, like Topalov, WC by way of a double round robin is okay. It was the primary reason for rooting for Kramnic. Now the prime reason is Topalov. I guess, top five prefer Round Robin, Top hundred prefer KO and fans prefer matches. Still hope fans win, aberrations like Topalov not withstanding. As regards, Anand, he always wanted to be politically correct. His professed ideology has been this. He wanted to change the general impression that a top notch chess player is always a nerd. I thought, he took his ideology to pose as a guy next door, made him unexciting. His wife is a better media personality. BTW what did you mean by PC?

	CastleRock
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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #820 - 10/09/06 at 12:45:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote from this interwview: * - So far there have been numerous battles outside the chess board. What will be the main thing from now on? - I believe that my manager Silvio Danailov did an extraordinary job and won all the legal battles outside the board quite convincingly, and in the enemy field, too. Now it is my turn to do the same on the chess board. * Seems Toplav is broud on that... Before the most chess player were big fans of Topalv (including myself). Whit this "outside the board battles" He lost a lot of symathie. He thinks its about being on his side or on Kramniks side. What he not understand is the poularity of Kramnik hasnt grown, but his dramaticly went down. This is not about beeing on ones side, or have a certain nationality. It just abuot unsportive behaviour. Chess is not football. And besides, even in football the fans dont like if you provoke in nasty ways.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #819 - 10/09/06 at 11:45:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/event/kratop06/kratoppress8.html Interview with Topalov released (read, written by, presumably) by Danailov. Insert usual expressions of shock, outrage, etc. here. One thing this match is achieving is that I am almost ceasing to regret the passing of the classical match tradition. If we're going to have behaviour like Topalov's and the Appeal's Committee then there's no point bothering, really.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #818 - 10/09/06 at 11:18:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	FRom the official site also I found this interesting alternative at move 19 for Black: It is late for Black to care about even amount of pawns at the board. However, obtaining decent compensation is realistic. For instance, interesting is 19...Nxe5 20.dxe5 d4 21.Be3 (21.Nxb5? Qd5 22.Nxd4 Bb7 23.f3 Bc5) 21...dxe3 22.Rxd8 exf2+ 23.Qxf2 Bxd8, and the bishop pair combined with White’s weakened king give Black good counterchances. John - I like this idea for Black which is why I am trying to make something work - the game wasnt so bad, but given the forcing nature of Kramniks continuation I suspect Black has better earlier on. Will be interesting to see if this line is repeated much...


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #817 - 10/09/06 at 11:16:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano, sure, of course it’s still playable, but I think people will tend to stick to the better-established methods round moves 9-11. It’s hard to see what Topalov’s team can have had in mind – as Marin says these moves don’t feel right together, and once you take the decision to play a solid opening why on earth not go on playing solidly? It’s true of course, a blunder is never just a blunder, and Topalov was playing a position that didn’t suit him, which makes blunders more likely.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #816 - 10/09/06 at 11:13:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Castlerock – thanks for that link: “the differently abled”, love it. Didn’t realise PC had reached India. Good to see the big boys coming out instead of the usual CMA silence, although I don’t like seeing him linking his comments to puffing Mexico City. The only thing I’ve ever had against Anand was his comment that he wished chessfans ‘would get rid of this stupid idea about the world championship dating back to Steinitz and so on’. I like to see a bit more sense of history, and for that matter more respect for the hand that ultimately feeds him, although one can understand his exasperation. I think Anand took against world championship matches when he had to put up with Kasparov’s bad behaviour in New York 95, and I don’t suppose either the 1997 Karpov episode, nor the Kasparov offer withdrawn in 2000, exactly thrilled him either. Thanks for the info about Anand in India awhile back as well. I remember him saying in 92(?) after his candidates match with Dreev, that he wasn’t sure it had helped him playing in Madras (?again), because the adulation hadn’t helped him get away from it and prepare and focus. But of course it’s different during a match, perhaps, and maybe that match was played in his actual home city. I found Inarkiev’s view after the first two games interesting; words to the effect of, “Of course the knockout system is better for ordinary grandmasters like me. But watching these games you can see that the world championship should be settled in a match. People talk about blunders, but I can assure you that they are playing fantastic chess.”. I suppose now we have 20,000 punters sitting at home following with Fritz we’re bound to think they’re not playing so well, especially since after every move it’s either ‘oh my God Rybka said Be3 +.47 how can he blunder like this’, or else “Aha Qd1 is Fritz move, yes?”. I don’t suppose the K-K matches would have looked so clever under the same scrutiny either (and let’s face it Kramnik-Kasparov in 2000 was piss-poor, with Gazza losing two games like a child and lucky not to lose at least one more while never getting any kind of blow in himself).


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #815 - 10/09/06 at 11:09:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK, well I answer my own question I think, seems what I was thinking was correct - first this piece of analysis from the guy on the official site: As both grandmasters pointed out, Black should play 24...Bxb5 25.axb5 Qxb5 26.Qxb5 Rxb5, and White enjoys slight initiative in the ending. It evaporates after a couple of accurate moves: 27.Nd7 Re8 28.Ra8 (on 28.Re1 Black must see 28...g5! 29.Bc1 g4) 28...Rxb2 29.Re1 (29.Bc7 is useless due to 29...Rb7) 29...Rb7 30.Nc5 Rbe7 31.f3 Nd6! 32.Rb1 Bc7 33.Bxd6 Bxd6 34.Rxa5, and the game ends in a logical way. (I think 27.Ra2 as Marin says is better - but it does not change the evaluation, I dont think Black has any serious problems to draw) And the Kramnik quote in the press conference confirms: Yesterday I made a present to Veselin, today the roles have changed. As for objective evaluation of the position, I think Black holds if he plays correctly – it should be a draw. So seems like this line is still playable for Black!?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #814 - 10/09/06 at 11:00:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, Svidler is the man to go to, not surprisingly. Though he too, for example, passed by the missed tablebase win in game 2 – the only decent coverage of that I’ve seen is Nunn on Chessbase. Actually this was exactly typical of Kramnik’s play during his best days – he was famous for his ability to react to innovations (I understand Topalov’s play from moves 9-11 was new) by sensing the right direction to take the play in, and essentially refute his opponent’s preparation at sight. I suppose this type of innovation – more a new plan than concrete tactical computer-backed prep – is still something where this is possible. Although K didn’t manage this in game nine, besides energy issues I think he paid there for his lack of Slav experience. You’d think Dreev would have been on his team if he was going to play these openings so much. Spassky too has come out (interview on chessbase) and said that he regards Topalov’s behaviour as improper and that he doesn’t see any comparison with Fischer’s, which was directed always at the organiser and never the opponent. Ubiyca: yes, I think you’re right, good point.


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #813 - 10/09/06 at 10:41:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello, The highest quality comments on the match, imo, are coming from Svidler at http://www.chesspro.ru/match/ . (For some reason, they keep moving about URL's for individual games). He has not got round to game 10 yet. Marin's comments are not as good as they could be because having to pump them out quite quickly, although would trust the comments on Catalan because plays the opening himself.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #812 - 10/09/06 at 10:06:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, but I think Marin (who I usually trust a lot) may be slightly optimistic for White in this position. In fact even the game continuation as it went looked OK for Black - apparently Kasparov said when following the game live that Topalovs position was already poor before the blunder 24...f6??, but at the time I felt 24...Bxb5 was only a temporary edge for White - I know it is the type of position Kramnik likes, but I put it into Fritz and seems like there are a few ways to completely equalize so I suspect Topalov just over-estimated Whites chances there, though what he was thinking with 24...f6 I dont know I´d be interested though if there are even better ways for Black to play earlier, I havent had a chance to analyse it properly yet. Judging by the time taken the interesting thing is that Im pretty sure Kramnik came up with this sequence over the board. Not surprising I suppose as it is a rare line from Black.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #811 - 10/09/06 at 09:57:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	I do not play this myself as Black, but I did notice Marin's comment that Black were mixing ideas when he played BOTH Nh5 and advanced his queenside-pawns.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #810 - 10/09/06 at 08:59:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	What is the verdict on Kramniks opening play in the last game - according to Marin it is uncomfortable for Black after cxd5 followed by e4. During the game I found it hard to believe Black could not equalize here (I thought it was a position Kramnik would happily take as Black) but it seems I may have underestimated the dynamic factors in the position - for sure Black is just a couple of moves away from having a nice position, but does he have time? It seems like for once the Topalov team were caught off-guard by this plan.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #809 - 10/09/06 at 04:31:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Anand on the controversy "It's great entertainment, no doubt. But there is no place for such things in sport. He (Kramnik) was accused not of something he actually did, but something he could have done, and losing a game was extremely unfair to Kramnik. To say that it could have been handled better would actually be putting it mildly. The event is tainted now," http://www.hindu.com/2006/10/09/stories/2006100906301800.htm

	CastleRock
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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #808 - 10/09/06 at 03:51:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	All right, this is exciting stuff. Despite the sometimes 'dubious' moves by both players (and all the crazy controversy) this match has been simply fascinating. I think its clear now that the intense psychological burden of this match has affected both players a great deal, and I think that pressure has now become the deciding factor. I believe the last two games will be about surviving mistakes and taking advantage of inaccuracies rather than brillant, flawless games or long/deep planning. Whoever can impose their will and overcome their 'technical difficulties' will win. I really think the match is more about will-power and emotional stability than OTB strength. I also think the match will be finished after 12 games and will not require any playoff. Lets hope the championship isn't decided by a rapid game!

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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ubiyca YaBB Newbies Offline Posts: 47 Location: California, USA Joined: 06/14/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #807 - 10/09/06 at 00:24:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/08/06 at 17:46:05: Something that slightly puzzles me about the last game: if after f4 ...dxc4 is indicated to prevent c5, as Markovich plausibly suggested, how come Topalov went g3 first?After all this move is more or less wasted after Bxc4. Why not 9 f4, I wonder? 9.g3 is a useful prophylactic move - if White plays 9.f4 immediately, he will have trouble on the h-file due to the pin on the h2-pawn, say after 9...Nh5. Black threatens both ...Qh4+ or ...Ng3 immediately, and even if he isn't able to follow through with those threats, he can liquidate his doubled g-pawns with ...g5.

	vbhat.wordpress.com
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #806 - 10/08/06 at 19:09:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Two rapids, two blitz, Armageddon, I think. I believe Kramnik will play, but we'll see. It's interesting how this match has not really seen a repeated opening, as previous matches have (not Kramnik-Leko, but K-K the Berlin, K-Anand the Schev, K-Short the Bc4 Naj, etc). Of course generally with computers most players have wider repertoires these days. You'd think though that if chess were dying because of computers as people predict then players would stick more to their openings with Black, since they'd have them so well prepared they couldn't be busted. Indeed Kramnik at least has paid for playing new openings in the match: if he'd had more Slav experience (I don't think he's played it much at all?) then he'd surely have lost in a little less childlike manner in game 9. Tuesday's a huge, indeed super-colossal, game now of course. 1 e4 would be a monstrous decision at this stage. I imagine Topalov will stick with 1 d4, and Kramnik? My view is that in such a game you must stick with what you know. That would mean a semi-Slav, maybe, or perhaps an orthodox QGD? I've been surprised he's not gone with that. Of course he has bad memories from the Leko match, amd usually Topa plays Bf4 also. My prediction would be the same as game 9 from Topalov, and then back to 4...e6 again, then the s-Slav. It's surely safer to go somewhere you've already seen Topalov's number one prep.


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Viking God Member Offline Posts: 673 Location: Norway Joined: 10/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #805 - 10/08/06 at 18:27:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Anybody knows what is supposed to happen in case of 6-6 after 12 games? More "long time" normal games? Rapid? Blitz? Anyway, In case of an "equal score" after 12 games. Will Kramnik accept to play on? I would guess that that is not an option for him - as he denies the outcome of game 5!


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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #804 - 10/08/06 at 17:54:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/08/06 at 14:37:21: Well, I've seldom been more glad to be proved wrong. Surprising opening choice from Topalov IMHO; the Catalan looked like Kramnik's best bet to me. I was at least a little bit right; he didn't throw caution to the winds but stuck to his style. Yes, this also strikes me as odd, especially gived Topalov's success in game 8. It will be very interesting to see what he prepares for game 12. Quote: Anyway, if Kramnik's got any sense he'll be in the rest room right now mooning Danailov. While I don't think that Kramnik's slipped that much yet, he was wearing jeans to the match today...


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #803 - 10/08/06 at 17:46:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Something that slightly puzzles me about the last game: if after f4 ...dxc4 is indicated to prevent c5, as Markovich plausibly suggested, how come Topalov went g3 first?After all this move is more or less wasted after Bxc4. Why not 9 f4, I wonder?


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StuntLinguist YaBB Newbies Offline Pronouncer of strange and difficult words. Posts: 42 Location: columbia Joined: 10/09/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #802 - 10/08/06 at 16:32:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Wow, another absolutely great game! I know, I know, ...f6?? was a horrific blunder, but it seemed to stem from Kramnik imposing his will on the game. This obviously wasn't Topalov's type of position and his patient defence clearly wasn't up to the challenge. Can anyone imagine Kramnik blundering like that while defending a slightly worse position? Me neither Such a great game. I only hope Kramnik finds an opening line that gives him the sort of game he wants for game 11. SL


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #801 - 10/08/06 at 15:04:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	It's hard to imagine what Topalov was thinking with 24....f6???, collapsing on the spot in a fairly equal position. This is his third really serious blunder of the match - in fact I would say the worst. In game 1, it's easy to see why he missed the drawing combination; it's hard to adjust from pressing and realise it's the moment to sacrifice a piece and force the draw, and he just wasn't looking for it. And the missed mate in game two is also easy to understand I think - the whole attack has been about the queen going to g6, and it's easy to miss that the c-file has momentarily come open and also that the square e7 which has been so strongly covered throughout the game is now uncovered so that Black can't guard his second rank. But this is extraordinary - White plays the natural moves and you resign, and in more ways than one. Did he just not see that the d-pawn would be en prise? If he got that far he would hardly have played the move. In the last game the ICC GM kibitzers were all for 15...c5, but Sakaev gave 16 e5 Nd5 17 Bd2 big advantage to White, and in the end Nataf (the lead ICC GM kibitzer) agreed. I haven't really looked. micawber, lots of GMs including Kasparov and Short were saying it's not so easy, White may have weaknesses on the king side, and so on. But I didn't see any of them suggesting a remotely convincing arrangement of Black's pieces, nor indeed suggesting Topalov's very strong plan. Call me a Fritz-obsessed punter if you will but I was playing about trying to defend for Black against them (with their help of course) and getting nowhere at all. ...Bxc3 is a distress signal for sure but it's not exactly Kramnik-up-to-his-old-tricks-playing-to-exchange-pieces-and-draw, was it, which was what your post rather implied and which I'm getting rather tired of. Maybe a bit oversensitive. After that 35...c5 maybe gave more of the sort of fighting chances that make a difference at my level, but I doubt it would have detained Topalov long.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #800 - 10/08/06 at 14:51:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/08/06 at 14:37:21: Well, I've seldom been more glad to be proved wrong. And I'm seldom been more glad to be proved right. Just logged in and I'm happy.

	CastleRock
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #799 - 10/08/06 at 14:45:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm impressed to see Kramnik punch back like this, I didn't expect it! Great to see Kramnik finally putting Topalov under pressure, making him crack!

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #798 - 10/08/06 at 14:40:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ok now resigned, and notNf3before time too. Now will be interesting to see what opening gets played next. 1.d4 d5 c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Nd2, or a transpose to QGA again?


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #797 - 10/08/06 at 14:40:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am not sure it is only nerves. Topalov seems to be the type of player that is great at attacking, but have problems with patient defensive play. He doesn't seem to be very patient. Polgar also speculated in this in her blog. Anyway, Topalov should resign. Ostapbender: Images spice up the forum. I use a screencapture (freeware) and upload it to http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/ This is also free and has worked excellently so far.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #796 - 10/08/06 at 14:37:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, I've seldom been more glad to be proved wrong. Surprising opening choice from Topalov IMHO; the Catalan looked like Kramnik's best bet to me. I was at least a little bit right; he didn't throw caution to the winds but stuck to his style. Buzz; there's no doubt you're right; if reacting to unsubstantiated cheating accusations and biased officiating it's what important in the game, Kramnik is weak. Some of us think it's up to the officials to keep the need for this quality out of the game. The computer conspiracists, by the way, reckon that the blunders prove the playuers are cheating. It's easier to blunder when you miscount the pulses on your transmitter. In other words both players are cheating but it isn't actually helping them. (GM Kamsky had the best comment - if either player is cheating, Kramnik was cheating with the Sargon computer in the first half of the match and Topalov was cheating with Rybka after Danailov created a distraction, but either of these will be very hard to prove). Of course this sort of nonsense on the forums, which is no doubt at least a bit representative of what's going on out in the world, illustrates how insane FIDE were not to stamp hard on the absurd protest in the first place. Anyway, if Kramnik's got any sense he'll be in the rest room right now mooning Danailov.


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #795 - 10/08/06 at 14:37:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	game is taking a comic turn now, why on earth is Topalov playin on


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #794 - 10/08/06 at 14:30:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes resignation must be coming soon. Well done Kramnik - back in the match. Topalov must feel like he's let a lot of games slip in this match, on the other hand (dare I mention it) he does have a point by default! Seriously though, I find it difficult to predict a winner now - Topalovs blunder today could be a sign that the nerves are getting to him, and Kramnik has more experience in this kind of do or die match situation. On the other hand Topalov had built up some momentum until today. Its one White each to come - Kramnik having White in the last game could be an advantage. Over-all, maybe Kramnik is slight favourite now.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #793 - 10/08/06 at 14:20:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm guessing Topalov is just waiting for time control to resign. It's a hopeless ending for Black.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #792 - 10/08/06 at 14:15:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/08/06 at 14:08:21: OK I'll try not to! Lets all calm down and try and see what happens in this crazy match! I am just as baffled as you by Topalovs blunder ...f6 - truly amazing. In fact, apart from a couple of good games, I think the standard of chess has not been outstanding here for a World Ch match. Yes. Kind of ironic in light of the the computer-assisted cheating accusations and not just those by Danailov. On ICC (and maybe elsewhere) there were idiotic rumors surfacing about Topalov using Rybka. Some strong performances, but overall strangely erratic play by both opponents in this match.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #791 - 10/08/06 at 14:13:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	yeah I think 31.f3 was quicker, but the position is so winning I dont see how he can mess it up now.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #790 - 10/08/06 at 14:10:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	I was a little bit surprised that Kramnik opted to win the exchange (31.Nd5) instead of the pinned knight (31.f3), but it looks like it should be an easy win either way. Maybe there is a problem with 31.f3 - if so I can't see it.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #789 - 10/08/06 at 14:08:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK I'll try not to! Lets all calm down and try and see what happens in this crazy match! I am just as baffled as you by Topalovs blunder ...f6 - truly amazing. In fact, apart from a couple of good games, I think the standard of chess has not been outstanding here for a World Ch match.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #788 - 10/08/06 at 14:02:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/08/06 at 13:51:51: nearly everything wins now - Kramnik back in business! What say you now OstapBender, you thought I was being disingenuous yesterday saying Kramnik could come back.... Truthfully, I did not believe that you meant it when you said Kramik was still in the match. And I owe you an appology as I had no right to assume I knew what you were thinking or that it was different than what you were saying. As for the outcome of this game, I've very surprised both at Kramnik's energetic play and Topalov's blunder - especially the latter! Indeed, I thought after the last two games that Topalov had to be very confident and Kramnik psychologically crushed. I'm as pleased with this outcome (of course) as I am baffled by it. Your a better man than I Keano, so I know you're not telling me "I told you so" here.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #787 - 10/08/06 at 13:51:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	nearly everything wins now - Kramnik back in business! What say you now OstapBender, you thought I was being disingenuous yesterday saying Kramnik could come back....


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #786 - 10/08/06 at 13:44:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	28.Ndc3 looks good, but Kramnik seems to be thinking a long time on this. Maybe he's just being ultra-cautious?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #785 - 10/08/06 at 13:43:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello, Susan Polgar certainly thinks 24... f6 blunder, and so would I if playing in a club match, but can never be sure with Topalov if it is not a deliberate sac. http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #784 - 10/08/06 at 13:43:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Now it will be Topalovs turn to react to defeat - only 2 games left after this and he is Black in the last one again, so next game will be very important for him to come out firing.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #783 - 10/08/06 at 13:36:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	24...Bxb5 looked sensible no? If White has an edge it must be microscopic there. It looks like the nerves have got to Topalov as I predicted might happen the nearer we get to the finish line.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #782 - 10/08/06 at 13:32:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	24...f6 was a blunder (played quickly like other moves). Unbelievable! Kramnik could win this one! Klick, I gotta learn that trick of yours for posting such diagrams (a screen capture?).

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #781 - 10/08/06 at 13:28:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	I just connected and no commentary here today? Is Kramnik not just winning now (after ...f6) It looked like he had some pressure anyway - so could we have the immediate comeback? The Kramnik supporters had given up already, but looks like he is coming back strong


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #780 - 10/08/06 at 13:28:02	Post Tools	Print Post


	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #779 - 10/08/06 at 11:28:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	11...b5!? This looks like good prep from the Topalov team again - now if 12.b3 then I suppose ...a4 and everything is place. So 12.c5!? f5!? with a strange stonewall that looks at least OK for Black to me... The pattern is continuing - Toppy has used 2 mins, Kramnik 25 mins so far


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #778 - 10/08/06 at 11:12:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Game 10 is on - 9....a5!? Has made Kramnik think again. More normal is ...b6


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #777 - 10/08/06 at 11:00:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Another interesting Kramnik quote: So far my openings are disastrous. It is easy to play good in good positions, and vice versa. If I manage solving my opening problems, everything should be different.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #776 - 10/08/06 at 10:58:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Press Conferences are on official page now, apparently Kramnik was confident and relaxed again despite his second loss (I presume he is putting some energy into maintaining a front but I could be wrong). On the game he said After the opening, I continued resisting because it was inconvenient for me to resign that early, but the game was basically decided by the move 17


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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #775 - 10/08/06 at 04:20:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 10/08/06 at 01:38:55: What ?! - No press conferences today? Topper Really? Usually there is a delay of a day or so before they are translated and posted at the official page, but I assume that there was a press conference (probably with K and T separated again). Well, Kramnik played some of his best when -1 against Leko -- I wonder, though, if he still has it in him. Either he will have to dig deep into his opening bag of tricks, or find a way to grind Topalov down, but his judgement has not been good in the past two games.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #774 - 10/08/06 at 04:05:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	THE SLIMING OF A CHAMPION A RAVE by Jeremy Silman As most of you already know, after falling behind 3-1 the Topalov team, clearly in a state of panic, accused Kramnik of cheating. Apparently, the only reason Kramnik would use his private toilet would be to share quality time with Fritz 9 or some other top chess engine. That's what toilets are for, right? Since there was absolutely no proof of any cheating going on, the appeals committee showed their high moral fiber and punished Kramnik in various ways. Oddly, Kramnik didn't appreciate being slimed by thugs Danailov (the head of Team Topalov), Makropoulos (Appeals Committee), and Azmaiparashvili (Appeals Committee). Thus he refused to play game five until the mess was worked out and apologies were offered. As a result, he was forfeited (he was due to have the White pieces). This is what I wrote to ChessBase at that time: Let's get this straight. The Topalov gang of thugs ... err ... I mean camp, realizing that it is about to lose the title, comes up with outrageous (as in illogical, unproven, nonsensical) accusations designed to get into Kramnik's head. The appeals committee, made up of Topalov supporters, side with their buddies (an illegal act, if one believes that signed contracts are worth the paper they are printed on). Kramnik, to his credit, refuses to cave in to this amateurish and criminal attempt to steal the match. Correctly, he also refuses to play game five since it would give credence to the madness tossed his way. The mighty leader of FIDE returns, gets rid of the appeals committee, and reinstates the bathrooms. Doing this clearly says, "The whole affair was handled incorrectly." And now we are told that the match will continue with the forfeit standing! In other words, the despicable behavior of the Topey squad isn't punished in any way, while Kramnik gets body slammed by forfeiting a key game!? Perhaps Kirsan was only giving us a false show of trying to set things right since Kramnik would be foolish to play when faced with such idiocy. Thus, the FIDE Champion (who supported Ilyumzhinov in the elections) will retain his title, semi-human cretins like Danailov will learn that such actions will always be rewarded, and the one man that didn't do anything to anyone (Kramnik) will be crushed. What a joke! One final point: Throughout my career in chess, I've known many players that constantly rush to the bathroom. Minor medical conditions, compounded with nerves and the constant imbibing of liquids, make this a fairly common occurrence. To claim that Kramnik's toilet use is proof that he is using a 1200 rated computer (How else to explain it allowing its human to be mated in three?) is laughable, which is how the appeals committee should have reacted to the Topalov camp's little joke. From this day forth, when one player tries to slime another, it will be said that "So and so is trying to Topalov his opponent!" or, taking a page from boxing lore, "It's a Tope-a-Dope!" As a result of this, Kramink ended up with three Blacks in a row (a Black before the forfeit, and two further Black's after it). Most players would walk out of the match, but the Classical World Champion showed his class when he decided to continue with a 3-2 lead. After easily holding a draw in game six, that paragon of virtue Danailov tried once again to disturb Kramnik by claiming that, "After very detailed analysis of all games of the match, we would like to present to your attention coincidence statistics of the moves of GM Kramnik with recommendations of chess program Fritz 9." Danailov showed that Kramnik's moves match the first choice of Fritz 9 78% of the time. Mark Crowther's comment mirrored my own state of mind perfectly: "I'm sorry but this is one of the most stupid press releases I've ever seen." Sadly, many players and most certainly the ignorant public will take this as a sure sign that Kramnik is cheating. However, it really shows that Kramnik is not cheating at all! To prove this point I played through a Keres game from 1957, using Fritz 9 to scan every move. After the opening theory was past, I got the following stats for the final 29 moves: 24 Fritz FIRST CHOICES 2 Fritz SECOND CHOICES (which were just a tad weaker than its first choice) 1 Fritz THIRD CHOICE (which also was strong) 2 moves that Fritz didn't care for These statistics show, without any doubt (if we follow the thug's reasoning), that: Keres was using Fritz 9 in 1957!!!! AND he used it more often (at least in this game) than Kramnik does! OR -- and this is a stretch -- could it be that world-class players play world-class moves? By the way, most of Topalov's moves are also Fritz 9 thumbs up choices. My god! Could it be that BOTH players are cheating? In my opinion, Topalov should be held accountable for the deplorable behavior of his pet thug. And FIDE should be ashamed of itself for allowing this kind of sick, despicable character assassination to take place. The fact that they actually rewarded team Topalov shows where their loyalties lie. Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #773 - 10/08/06 at 02:00:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Buzz wrote on 10/08/06 at 01:48:51: All of this is most entertaining This is how I see things as far as the conduct of the match so far. The definition of a Profesional athlete, poker player, chess player, etc. means they are expected to perform at top level 99% of the time irregardless of the circumstances. This is what seperates champions from just 'the very good.' In all sports the 'headgames' are played and used by all of the very best. The better player does not allow himself to be 'psyched out.' Don't get me wrong either I'M not a fan of Topa's but Kramnik has allowed himself to be taken out of form. The 'psych' job used by Toppa's team is rather low but such tactics have been used in all sporting events and they are a part of the modern compitition scene...love them or hate them..... I would like to see Kramnik get the job done but I had to question his protest by sitting out game #5 and thereby losing that whole point. I think it was a knucklehead move on Kram's part but I guess he had his reasons but he may think quite differently in a couple of years (he may never admit it though). Kram needs to just settle in and fight like all hell. Despite all of this controversy I think it is good for the competitive aspect of the sport! All great sports have great famous rivals! SO lets enjoy the rest of this match..... Thanks for this very inciteful post. Indeed why bother to even have athletes sign contracts at all binding them to certain obligations, after all regardless of whether the contract is broken or not, it doesn't matter, they are still expected to perform at top level 99% of the time. Furthermore if the contract is broken to your detriment, that should motivate you to perform even better, after all you are a professional. I wonder how many of us professionals in other fields share this inciteful view. Once again very astute post Buzz. Topster

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #772 - 10/08/06 at 01:48:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	All of this is most entertaining This is how I see things as far as the conduct of the match so far. The definition of a Profesional athlete, poker player, chess player, etc. means they are expected to perform at top level 99% of the time irregardless of the circumstances. This is what seperates champions from just 'the very good.' In all sports the 'headgames' are played and used by all of the very best. The better player does not allow himself to be 'psyched out.' Don't get me wrong either I'M not a fan of Topa's but Kramnik has allowed himself to be taken out of form. The 'psych' job used by Toppa's team is rather low but such tactics have been used in all sporting events and they are a part of the modern compitition scene...love them or hate them..... I would like to see Kramnik get the job done but I had to question his protest by sitting out game #5 and thereby losing that whole point. I think it was a knucklehead move on Kram's part but I guess he had his reasons but he may think quite differently in a couple of years (he may never admit it though). Kram needs to just settle in and fight like all hell. Despite all of this controversy I think it is good for the competitive aspect of the sport! All great sports have great famous rivals! SO lets enjoy the rest of this match.....


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #771 - 10/08/06 at 01:38:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	What ?! - No press conferences today? Topper

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #770 - 10/08/06 at 01:35:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/07/06 at 14:44:20: My personal opinion is that Topalov will win, but I am not writing Kramnik off by any means - he has to rise to the occasion though that is for sure, and concentrate solely on the chess. It is up to his team and those around him to help him in this. Hedging your bets and sitting on the fence as usual. It wasn't naive at all to think that going 2-0 down to a player of Kraminik's calibre insurmountable to overcome, but who in their wildest dreams could have predicted the desperate means that Topalov would resort to to get back in the match. The way you analyse and talk about this match one would think that it has been played on an equal and fair footing. Now who really is the one being naive. So Topalov retains a tainted title and Kramnik wins the respect and admiration of millions around the chess world. Thankfully those that dismiss Topalov's behaviour as all part n parcel of a sporting contest, and one just needs to be tough and ignore these things, are in the minority. Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #769 - 10/08/06 at 01:26:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/07/06 at 20:25:48: Tell you what, Markovich, you start your own thread for the next game exclusively to talk about where two 2750 players went wrong and what motivated their moves. There is no story to this match other than what's happened, and there's no making predictions without referring to it. I have no objection to commentary that takes into account the history of the match and the resulting psychological factors. I'm talking about "Oh horrors, now we'll have a cheater for a World Champion," and far worse remarks that many of these people put up here. There is another thread for that, or so I thought. But fine, if unabashed hatred is to be not only tolerated but even expected here, so long and thanks for all the puerile shirt-rending.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #768 - 10/07/06 at 23:53:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	John Cox "Micawber, for goodness' sake spare us this Kramnik-exchanging-strategy-misfiring rubbish. Black was virtually lost long before ...Nh7." Both Marin and Sakaev where of the opinion that whites advantage at the 20th move was to a certain degree only optical. The manoevres by kramnik between move 23-26 Nh7-Bg5 were clearly targeted at exchanges. The misplaced knight on h7 and bishop on g5 opened the floodgates White could play h4 with tempo and e5 without being bothered by Nd5 (as Marin pointed out). The exchange Bxc3 was either equal to surrender (Marin) or a heavy positional concession (Sakaev). Of course you are entitled to your opinions, but I think you should consider the position on the board before rubishing someone elses opinion.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #767 - 10/07/06 at 22:16:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 10/07/06 at 19:21:32: But finally may I say, it's very wearisome to come here expecting to read match commentary and always encounter poisonous remarks about Topalov. Would those who want to spout on that subject PLEASE have the courtesy to do that on another thread? There is one reserved for it. Speaking of wearisome posts, have you read any of your own lately? We all seem to find it wearisome to read posts which merely express an unsupportable, or already expressed 1000 times, opinion — well, at least when the opinion expressed runs counter to our own. Funny how we don't mind the equally repetitious, insipid posts that agree with our opinion though... I happen to find the chirpy, disingenuous sentiment "Topalov bounced back, so can't Kramnik" rather irritating but I somehow lack the arrogance to demand that these posts be made to another thread. I also find the use of the moniker Drawnik idiotic beyond words (but somehow I'm not bothered by, for example, Topaloo ). When I stop reading posts in this thread that I find wearisome, I will be less inclined to post that unfair, toxic, anti-Topalov commentary that seems to bother you so much. I cannot, of course, speak for anyone else though.
	« Last Edit: 10/08/06 at 02:16:51 by OstapBender »
	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #766 - 10/07/06 at 21:54:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/07/06 at 20:25:48: Kevin; the machines have White about +2 from the point where he stabilises after Bxf4. Things have obviously gone bad for Black once he has to play ...exf4, and even ...e5 is a worring sign. Things seldom go well for Black in this structure unless he can play .....c5. As a rule of thumb ....e5 is only a good idea if it can be combined with some short-term happenings down the d-file and on the black squares. Obviously Kramnik knows this; I suppose he must have miscalculated something somewhere round moves 15-18, but I've no idea what. John, Was 15...c5 playable? I've also seen 11...Nb6 (instead of 11...0-0) 12.Be2 c5 suggested.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #765 - 10/07/06 at 20:25:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Tell you what, Markovich, you start your own thread for the next game exclusively to talk about where two 2750 players went wrong and what motivated their moves. There is no story to this match other than what's happened, and there's no making predictions without referring to it. Kevin; the machines have White about +2 from the point where he stabilises after Bxf4. Things have obviously gone bad for Black once he has to play ...exf4, and even ...e5 is a worring sign. Things seldom go well for Black in this structure unless he can play .....c5. As a rule of thumb ....e5 is only a good idea if it can be combined with some short-term happenings down the d-file and on the black squares. Obviously Kramnik knows this; I suppose he must have miscalculated something somewhere round moves 15-18, but I've no idea what. I'd love to see Kramnik strike back tomorrow and take the lead again, of course, but I don't think there's any chance of it. I can't imagine he'll go e4, so I suppose we'll see another Slav/Semi-Slav. We don't have any idea what he'll have prepared in particular openings, but in general terms I think he needs a quiet game. As Rowson would say, he needs to be rather than to do. Players like Topalov do sometimes chafe and self-destruct in that type of position. A draw tomorrow for Kramnik would not be a bad result at all.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #764 - 10/07/06 at 19:30:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 10/07/06 at 12:55:47: Markovich wrote on 10/07/06 at 12:50:50: castlerock wrote on 10/07/06 at 12:47:48: Yes, Unfortunately. Game is gone for Kramnik. He's thoroughly out prepared Oh, I don't know. I don't think it's White win yet. Fritz 9 seems a bit too pessimistic (almost -2) but white seems clearly better. Was 10...dxc4 really necessary? This move was played to avoid White's c4-c5, with a Big Clamp.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #763 - 10/07/06 at 19:26:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/07/06 at 16:56:50: I can't understand why Kramnik hasn't got my book 'Dealing with d4 Deviations' in which I explain the merits of 6...Bg4 or ...Be4 forcing a weaknes on White if he wants to win the bishops, rather than 6...Bg6...... Well, maybe he does have it.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #762 - 10/07/06 at 19:21:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/07/06 at 14:44:20: I would suggest on the contrary. It was naive to suggest at 2-0 down with 10 games to go and having pushed in both those games to win that Topalov had no chance (as I believe TopNotch and a few others claimed). I think it is also naive to suggest that 1 point down with 3 games to come and 2 Whites that Kramnik has not got a chance to comeback. Talking psychology is all very well but it is up to Kramnik now to reverse the psychology - especially the last couple of games may be very nervy. He left it to the last game against Leko. Remember Karpov-Kasparov World ch match - karpov won the penultimate game and just needed a draw in the last game. Kasparov must have been devastated but he came back and beat Karpov, a man who rarely loses, in the very last game. My personal opinion is that Topalov will win, but I am not writing Kramnik off by any means - he has to rise to the occasion though that is for sure, and concentrate solely on the chess. It is up to his team and those around him to help him in this. You make excellent sense. This is my attitude exactly. Based on what we can see, Topalov will probably win. But Kramnik has two whites coming, and whether he has any fight left in him is for him to show. I would not be too terribly surprised if the match went into tiebreaks. If it did, though, I would expect Topalov to win. In any case, if he wants to hold Topalov to +1 or less, Kramnik will have to play better. He has made some good moves, but it seems to me that from the start, he hasn't been playing very well. Topalov was uneven at first, but he's played the past two games like, well, a World Champion. I'll bet Kramnik has something saved up for the White pieces just in case this sort of situation arose. The next game will be quite interesting. But finally may I say, it's very wearisome to come here expecting to read match commentary and always encounter poisonous remarks about Topalov. Would those who want to spout on that subject PLEASE have the courtesy to do that on another thread? There is one reserved for it.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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kevinludwig Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 233 Location: Los Angeles Joined: 06/13/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #761 - 10/07/06 at 18:53:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Micawber, for goodness' sake spare us this Kramnik-exchanging-strategy-misfiring rubbish. Black was virtually lost long before ...Nh7. John, at what point was Kramnik lost? The Nh4 idea picking up the bishop pair looked pretty normal, i.e I bet most people would play that way even if they didn't know any theory. Was that enough to give Topalov a big plus? It seems that at some point, Kramnik wandered into a passive position without squares for his knights. I was particularly impressed with the g3-f4-e4 pawn moves by Topalov (which is to say that I wouldn't have thought of gaining space like that in that position). When that started happening, was when I had a distinct feeling that Kramnik was in a lot of trouble.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #760 - 10/07/06 at 16:56:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Were there any king's pawn openings in Alekhine-Euwe? And they haven't all been Slavs, games one and three were Catalans. Micawber, for goodness' sake spare us this Kramnik-exchanging-strategy-misfiring rubbish. Black was virtually lost long before ...Nh7. I can't understand why Kramnik hasn't got my book 'Dealing with d4 Deviations' in which I explain the merits of 6...Bg4 or ...Be4 forcing a weaknes on White if he wants to win the bishops, rather than 6...Bg6......


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woofwoof God Member Offline chess is like life Posts: 929 Location: Singapore Joined: 07/04/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #759 - 10/07/06 at 16:45:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	By looking a the openings so far, i think it (match) might end up going down in history as the 1st match never to have a single K-pawn opening ever being played and 1st match where every game was some form of Slav. Could most likely be due to Toppa wanting to avoid the Petroff & Berlin, while Kramnik wants to avoid the Najdorf. But quite interesting none wants to venture an Indian so far.

	"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #758 - 10/07/06 at 16:44:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thx Inn2 I think it hadnt escaped Topalov that Kramnik had played the variation as black before..., and chose a plan with 0-0.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #757 - 10/07/06 at 16:40:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Yep, several times. Known continuations are 9.h3, Be2 and Bd3. Thus g3 followed by Bc4-f3 introduced a new plan. I wonder if black can afford to play Qc7 followed by 0-0-0 denying the white king a safe place on it's Kingside....... One example: 9.Bd3,Bd6 10.h3, 0-0 11.0-0, Qe7 12.Re1,dxc4 13 Bc4,e5 was Vyzmanavin-Kramnik, Paris,1994 In this game 8.Bd3 was played, but after 8...Nbd7 9.a3 we have the same position (as 8.a3 Nbd7 9.Bd3) so I see your point. I looked specifically for 8.a3 but didn't consider transpositions amounting to the same thing. Thanks for the info.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #756 - 10/07/06 at 16:30:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Yep, several times. Known continuations are 9.h3, Be2 and Bd3. Thus g3 followed by Bc4-f3 introduced a new plan. I wonder if black can afford to play Qc7 followed by 0-0-0 denying the white king a safe place on it's Kingside....... Castling queenside has been tried in a similar structure (coming from Caro Kann): 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 Nd7 6. O-O Ne7 7. Nh4! Bg6 8. Nd2 Nf5 9. Nxg6 hxg6 10. Nf3 Be7 11. g3 Qb6 12. c3 0-0-0 followed by Rh7 and Rdh8 All this is known theory. I think White has a slight plus, though its given equal/unclear in various places like ECO/Informator.


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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #755 - 10/07/06 at 16:18:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yep, several times. Known continuations are 9.h3, Be2 and Bd3. Thus g3 followed by Bc4-f3 introduced a new plan. I wonder if black can afford to play Qc7 followed by 0-0-0 denying the white king a safe place on it's Kingside....... One example: 9.Bd3,Bd6 10.h3, 0-0 11.0-0, Qe7 12.Re1,dxc4 13 Bc4,e5 was Vyzmanavin-Kramnik, Paris,1994


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #754 - 10/07/06 at 15:36:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: 9.g3 was a novelty. I thought 8.a3 looked like a new move. It's been played before?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #753 - 10/07/06 at 15:12:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	9.g3 was a novelty. After that black was on his own. White's advantage didnt seem very decisive, but I think that black's attempt to offer exchanges backfired rather badly (Nh7 for instance). Again T outmanoevred K.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #752 - 10/07/06 at 15:10:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, the 6.Nh4 idea had already been reasonably popular amongst GM's, but I suspect that now this treatment will become even more so...


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #751 - 10/07/06 at 15:07:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	having played the Slav/SemiSlav all my life, never occured to me to try the Black side of 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 Bf5 5. Nc3 e6 6. Nh4! .. giving up two bishops and getting a weakened pawn structure for absolutely zero compensation is not a good deal at all.. Perhaps Kramnik should have tried 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 Bg4!? which is slightly less-explored and continues the match theme of offbeat-Slav lines. maybe Black is not completely equal there either, but there is room for specific targeted preparation.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #750 - 10/07/06 at 15:00:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Like I said before this game, you won't see any more dirty tricks because they've done their work.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #749 - 10/07/06 at 14:59:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Of course Topalov had a chance at 1-3, but whether he'd have done it we'll never know. It's not a question of regaining focus. Kramnik hasn't got the energy - he's spent it, and there's nothing you can do about that.


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woofwoof God Member Offline chess is like life Posts: 929 Location: Singapore Joined: 07/04/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #748 - 10/07/06 at 14:58:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	chessy wrote on 10/07/06 at 14:30:05: terrible opening play by kramnik. suicidal! I thought so too. The game was won in the opening itself. The rest of the game, Kramnik spent playing a difficult or rather an inferior posn. Sounds veryvery familiar all of a sudden!!

	"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #747 - 10/07/06 at 14:58:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think you misinterpret my comment - I have said time and again I condemn Danailovs actions. I am saying it is up to the Kramnik team to isolate him from press releases etc. (something I think they should have done earlier) and protect their man more. It is clear that the Danailov tactics have had some distracting effect on him, since he had to deal with questions in a press conference related to the Fritz percentages press release - kramnk should never have been put in this position by his team (my opinion). Also as someone said earlier (TopNotch I think) the biggest mistake in the match was made by the Appeals committee, but we wont go through that whole discussion again, I am just trying to be constructive in how Kramnik should handle this situation - you can be sure he himself will not have given up yet!


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #746 - 10/07/06 at 14:52:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/07/06 at 14:44:20: I would suggest on the contrary. It was naive to suggest at 2-0 down with 10 games to go and having pushed in both those games to win that Topalov had no chance (as I believe TopNotch and a few others claimed). I think it is also naive to suggest that 1 point down with 3 games to come and 2 Whites that Kramnik has not got a chance to comeback. My personal opinion is that Topalov will win, but I am not writing Kramnik off by any means - he has to rise to the occasion though that is for sure, and concentrate solely on the chess. It is up to his team and those around him to help him in this. Up to his team? You mean like it was up to Topalov's team to help him rebound from 0-2? C'mon, just drop the Topalov fought back so Kramnik can too rhetoric. It's a bit too much to swallow. Topalov played some strong games, but you can't legitimize his comeback - even to yourself I expect.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #745 - 10/07/06 at 14:44:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	I would suggest on the contrary. It was naive to suggest at 2-0 down with 10 games to go and having pushed in both those games to win that Topalov had no chance (as I believe TopNotch and a few others claimed). I think it is also naive to suggest that 1 point down with 3 games to come and 2 Whites that Kramnik has not got a chance to comeback. Talking psychology is all very well but it is up to Kramnik now to reverse the psychology - especially the last couple of games may be very nervy. He left it to the last game against Leko. Remember Karpov-Kasparov World ch match - karpov won the penultimate game and just needed a draw in the last game. Kasparov must have been devastated but he came back and beat Karpov, a man who rarely loses, in the very last game. My personal opinion is that Topalov will win, but I am not writing Kramnik off by any means - he has to rise to the occasion though that is for sure, and concentrate solely on the chess. It is up to his team and those around him to help him in this.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #744 - 10/07/06 at 14:40:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sad day - clearly this is over. I predicted it but still I'm sad. Kramnik has completely gone; he just spent too much energy on the nonsense. Topalov played well today; interesting new opening idea and consistent plan afterwards, but Kramnik was unrecognisable. We're going to have a cheat for World Champion - there's no other word for Topalov's behaviour - and we still won't know who was the better player. Never mind, at least this is the last world champsionship match we'll ever see (less the Radjabov freak show) so at least we won't have to put up with this sort of thing again. The only interest for me in the rest of the match is whether Kramnik will choose to resign it or not.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #743 - 10/07/06 at 14:36:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/07/06 at 14:28:37: Well I suppose Kramnik has to somehow keep positive - he has 2 Whites to come, and he was in this situation against Leko. Based on last two games, to say that Kramnik has any chance of rebounding sounds a bit naive (or disingenuous). It is plainly apparent that, psychologically, Kramnik is defeated. A shame as it would have been heroic indeed had he managed to hold his lead and win the match.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #742 - 10/07/06 at 14:32:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well the pattern of the match has been that kramnik has been out-prepared in the opening (with a few exceptions), but this time it really went pear-shaped! Who said earlier the ...Bf5 line was a solid equalizer


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #741 - 10/07/06 at 14:30:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	terrible opening play by kramnik. suicidal!


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #740 - 10/07/06 at 14:28:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well I suppose Kramnik has to somehow keep positive - he has 2 Whites to come, and he was in this situation against Leko. The difference though is that Topalov in my opinion is a different proposition to Leko, tougher mentally, and especially once he picks up momentum like this is going to be tough to catch.


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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #739 - 10/07/06 at 14:28:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Me thinks there is no stopping Topalov now!

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #738 - 10/07/06 at 14:28:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/07/06 at 14:21:06: Incidentally I think the reason Kramnik was moving vey fast (besides being in time pressure) is that he realised his position was busted. His position was busted (at least in a positional sense) much earlier. Trying to salvage the busted position is what GOT him into time pressure.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #737 - 10/07/06 at 14:21:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Wow. Topalov really busted him up today. Why did Kramnik take ...Bxc3? Man...he got a whipping today. Great game by Topalov.

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #736 - 10/07/06 at 14:21:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Incidentally I think the reason Kramnik was moving vey fast (besides being in time pressure) is that he realised his position was busted.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #735 - 10/07/06 at 14:19:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	1-0. Kramnik resigned! Nice comeback in the match by Topalov - too bad it's tainted. Imagine how impressive this would've been if game 5 had been played (and drawn). Then again, who knows whether Kramnik could have been dominated the same way in such a scenario. A reluctant congrats to Topalov for another impressive game.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #734 - 10/07/06 at 14:19:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes its curtains now - great game by Topalov, very impressive. This is going to be tough for Kramnik now to recover after 2 straight defeats. The Toppy machine is starting to roll....


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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #733 - 10/07/06 at 14:19:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	1-0. It is all over folks

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #732 - 10/07/06 at 14:17:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thought 35...c5 was needed. and Kramnik plays Nf8. Boy, I don't understand 2750+ chess!

	CastleRock
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #731 - 10/07/06 at 14:17:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	I guess Kramnik didn't like the look of 35...c5 36.d5, but 35...Nf8 (played) looks so passive. I think White is winning here (or very close).

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #730 - 10/07/06 at 14:16:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	38. Rxf7....Nasty!

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #729 - 10/07/06 at 14:15:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nf8 was a mistak (shredder) now it clearly winning for white


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #728 - 10/07/06 at 14:13:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK I see what he was up to now - its simple chess again Rf3 and double on the f-file now - this is looking like very strong play from Topalov


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #727 - 10/07/06 at 14:12:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	35...c5 looks reasonable for Kramnik. Toppy's recent play looks almost aimless to me, but I'm sure I just missing the point.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #726 - 10/07/06 at 14:11:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik has played his last few move pretty fast. Hopefuly, he should be able to reach the time control intact.

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #725 - 10/07/06 at 14:09:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think Topalov's only problem now is chosing between too many good plans.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #724 - 10/07/06 at 14:06:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think Black is threatening to get ...c5 in now because the g4 Bishop will be loose. Not sure about Toppys last few moves, but I dont think hes ruined anything either


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #723 - 10/07/06 at 14:02:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	...Bxc3 played (one move later) and Black's position starting to look pretty desperate. Topalov takes his first long think of the game. Is he working out a plan based on d5 break? Maybe h-file play?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #722 - 10/07/06 at 13:56:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	now Qh2 and h5 looks awfull


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #721 - 10/07/06 at 13:54:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	well kramnik played ...Bxc3


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #720 - 10/07/06 at 13:51:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	seems like Topalov just has to clamp down on the ...c5 break and prepare the buildup


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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #719 - 10/07/06 at 13:48:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/07/06 at 13:44:58: Should Black play ...Bxc3 here? Kramnik using a lot of time. Time pressure getting worse. Bxc3 allows White to reinforce the d4 pawn and would reduce Black counterplay options....IMHPO

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #718 - 10/07/06 at 13:47:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	I wouldnt think so - he will need that bishop to helo with defence at some stage. The "problem" if its one for White is to pick from several attractive looking continuations - I still like the plan of preparing h4-h5. Meanwhile it is hard to see where Black is getting any counterplay.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #717 - 10/07/06 at 13:44:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Should Black play ...Bxc3 here? Kramnik using a lot of time. Time pressure getting worse.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #716 - 10/07/06 at 13:43:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/07/06 at 13:41:21: This may sound a bit slow but there is a plan to watch out for at some stage to open the h-file, maybe not now but at some stage - Be3,Kg2,Rh1,h5 and double rooks on the h-file. There are other attractive options of course. actually you are right. Shredder gave 29 h5 1.60 while now afterQg2 it is 0.99


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #715 - 10/07/06 at 13:42:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	29.Qg2 played. Preparing to play d4-d5 maybe?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #714 - 10/07/06 at 13:41:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	This may sound a bit slow but there is a plan to watch out for at some stage to open the h-file, maybe not now but at some stage - Be3,Kg2,Rh1,h5 and double rooks on the h-file. There are other attractive options of course.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #713 - 10/07/06 at 13:36:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	29.Ne4 coming? 29.Qb3 maybe also interesting.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #712 - 10/07/06 at 13:35:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	1.60


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #711 - 10/07/06 at 13:34:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes but Topalovs move is maybe even more logical - the Knight will transfer to the kingside. His play is making a pwerful impression to me - what do the engines say now?


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #710 - 10/07/06 at 13:30:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	28 Nc3 well acorrding to shreddy 28. Qc4 would have been very strong! week point f7


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #709 - 10/07/06 at 13:28:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	26.h4!? wow - I thought Topalov was going to slow-play it with 26.Bg2 and just sit on the position for a while. It looks like he's decided not to mess around though - maybe Kramniks time pressure was a consideration


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #708 - 10/07/06 at 13:27:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/07/06 at 13:23:50: Kramik has driven back Toppy's dark-square bishop and is maneuvering a knight to e6. Seems like Kramnik may be able to improve his position. I'm still not optimistic, though. Actually I believe the bisophs are strong placed on g1/g2 --> prodection the king and attack black weaknesses on queenside


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #707 - 10/07/06 at 13:26:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/07/06 at 13:23:50: Kramik has driven back Toppy's dark-square bishop and is maneuvering a knight to e6. Seems like Kramnik may be able to improve his position. I'm still not optimistic, though. I understood that much. But how can you defend the c pawn without Nh7-f6-d5, in response to e5 ? I'm unable to figure out.

	CastleRock
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #706 - 10/07/06 at 13:26:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	What about 26.e5 as black no longer has Nd5 to block the diagonal. e.g. Rc8 27.h4 Bh6 28.Nc3 (>Ne4)


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #705 - 10/07/06 at 13:24:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 10/07/06 at 13:22:38: 25...Nhf8? what is the idea? ...Ne6 I think

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #704 - 10/07/06 at 13:23:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramik has driven back Toppy's dark-square bishop and is maneuvering a knight to e6. Seems like Kramnik may be able to improve his position. I'm still not optimistic, though.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #703 - 10/07/06 at 13:22:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	25...Nhf8? what is the idea?

	CastleRock
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #702 - 10/07/06 at 13:19:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik has time trouble adding to his difficulties. I agree he's not lost yet, but he's in trouble.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #701 - 10/07/06 at 13:13:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kh1!? I suppose the idea is to give a square on g1 for his Bishop - with ishops on g2 and g1 it looks like he can set about torturing Black


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #700 - 10/07/06 at 13:09:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kh1 funny since i am online Toplov played allways the first choice of shredder.


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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #699 - 10/07/06 at 13:07:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think part of Kramniks disadvantage is optical. Dont forget that the white position has some pawn weaknesses as well, and white needs to hold on to his white squared bishop otherwise his King position will become very dubious.


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #698 - 10/07/06 at 13:04:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	shredder gives gives now1.27. As an human I think black has good counter chances (at least on patzer level)


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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #697 - 10/07/06 at 13:00:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe it is not all the bad for Black. Looks like a classic Hanging Pawn struggle, except for the c6 pawn.

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #696 - 10/07/06 at 12:59:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	shredder8 gives now 1.50. (deep14/35)


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #695 - 10/07/06 at 12:58:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	I wouldn't be that pessimistic for your man yet Castlerock - Black position looks difficult to get at to me.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #694 - 10/07/06 at 12:55:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 10/07/06 at 12:50:50: castlerock wrote on 10/07/06 at 12:47:48: Yes, Unfortunately. Game is gone for Kramnik. He's thoroughly out prepared Oh, I don't know. I don't think it's White win yet. Fritz 9 seems a bit too pessimistic (almost -2) but white seems clearly better. Was 10...dxc4 really necessary?


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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #693 - 10/07/06 at 12:55:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 10/07/06 at 12:50:50: castlerock wrote on 10/07/06 at 12:47:48: Yes, Unfortunately. Game is gone for Kramnik. He's thoroughly out prepared Oh, I don't know. I don't think it's White win yet. Well, i don't know who would want to play Black here! And it is only move 20. ! Any theroticians out there care to say where this game deviated?

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #692 - 10/07/06 at 12:54:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	No, not yet. But soon it would be I guess. It will need Kramnik's best defense to save the game. In the present scenario, I'm not optimistic. It would be great if he saves the game. Let's see.

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #691 - 10/07/06 at 12:53:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	No its not a win yet, obviously White is much better but it still needs to be won, I'd assess it clear/big advantage White


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #690 - 10/07/06 at 12:51:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	shreadder clamed to 1.45


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #689 - 10/07/06 at 12:50:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 10/07/06 at 12:47:48: Yes, Unfortunately. Game is gone for Kramnik. He's thoroughly out prepared Oh, I don't know. I don't think it's White win yet.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #688 - 10/07/06 at 12:47:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, Unfortunately. Game is gone for Kramnik. He's thoroughly out prepared

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #687 - 10/07/06 at 12:47:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	well 19...exf4 I had not expected, it looks like a good practical choice from Kramnik - he is worse but this way he has better chances to defend


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #686 - 10/07/06 at 12:44:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	chessy wrote on 10/07/06 at 12:39:33: Shredders first choice was Qb5 but Kramniks Qb8 seems more logical to me Me too, although watching from e3e5.com, I don't see that yet. Ah, now I have it. After Qc2 it looks like Kramnik has to exchange his e-pawn.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #685 - 10/07/06 at 12:43:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	well 19.Qc2 - simple chess. All Topalovs moves will flow naturally now - he has 2 bishops, a weak pawns to attack, a nice kingside majority, whereas the Kramnik position looks awful to have to play for me.


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #684 - 10/07/06 at 12:39:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Shredders first choice was Qb5 but Kramniks Qb8 seems more logical to me


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #683 - 10/07/06 at 12:37:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	shreadder is on plus 1.25　for Topalov.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #682 - 10/07/06 at 12:36:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well I just connected to see whats going on, and I cannot believe this position. I thought Topalov would come out strongly today, but how on earth has Kramnik managed to land himself in this position? Positionally he just looks busted already.


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #681 - 10/07/06 at 12:32:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	kramnik`s positions is already critical and he spend already more than an houre....


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #680 - 10/07/06 at 12:28:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Antillian wrote on 10/07/06 at 12:20:39: Any thoughts on Game 9 so far? Looks like it is going to be an interesting game. I just got my first glance of the game, and it looks to me like Kramnik may be in trouble already.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #679 - 10/07/06 at 12:26:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	After 17...Rad8 it's an interesting position. I like White's space and his bishops, but there is the immediate problem with the d-pawn. I'll be very interested to see what Topalov does. I was going to predict 18. Na4, but there, he's played it. On this basis, I'm a genius.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #678 - 10/07/06 at 12:25:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	shreadder gives plus 1.03 for Topalov


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #677 - 10/07/06 at 12:23:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/06/06 at 14:42:03: Anyway, changing the subject, how about some predictions for game nine and the rest of the match? My predictions: Game 9: Topalov to stick with d4. It’s surely too late to risk coming across a bomb in the Petroff now. Kramnik I think will stick to what he’s been doing. Topalov’s now pretty much tried all the early move orders against the Slav and indeed all the main tries. I think he might try the line from game 7 again, allowing the QGA. I’m not sure Kramnik was altogether convincing in game 7. Will Kramnik then play the tame 4…Bf5? Wow. Good call, John!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #676 - 10/07/06 at 12:20:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Any thoughts on Game 9 so far? Looks like it is going to be an interesting game.

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #675 - 10/07/06 at 06:28:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Frankly I am quite curious about the tie-breaks. Will Kramnik still spent as much time off board and in the restroom? I guess we'll find at out at least if walks to the restroom are indeed connected to a medical condition? Meanwhile. It seems to has escaped most people that the new world champion cycle has eh ...... gone down the toilet. The candidate matches that were to take place next month have been cancelled. They might be replaced by a tournament in.......... Elista! So the Fide has added another notch to its list of dubious decisions.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #674 - 10/07/06 at 05:01:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/06/06 at 14:42:03: I’m afraid I think Topalov will win and what’s more by +2. He is famous for gaining strength as events go on, and it’s clear that Kramnik is not playing well. Kramnik gathered his strength for a fantastic effort against Leko, but I don’t think he can do it again in these circumstances. Wow one day I was not around and so much of activity in one thread! For the sake of record, Danailov put a bug in my stomach! No John, I don’t think we have seen the end of Kramnik. At the very least we can see a tie break. That is sufficient to assume, morally, Kramnik is the champion and not that Topaloo. As much as I would like to disagree with Keano, I guess he is right. Topaloo out played Kramnik. Today morning I spent about half an hour with the game and I thought two knights for a rook and pawn continuation was the best Kramnik had. If there is any other drawing continuation, I would like to know. Topaloo, to my understanding, played a better game and deserved to win. I think, touting a Topaloo win at this point is obnoxious. That’s my opinion. That doesn’t mean Topaloo did not deserve to win.

	CastleRock
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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #673 - 10/07/06 at 04:50:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik does have a couple of Whites left. Based on the Leko match, he is likely to play 'normal chess' for the next two games, but the real question for me is whether he will make an all-out effort to win with black and white in the final two games, or if he is content to take things to tiebreaks. It would be nice to see things decided before then. I haven't had time to peruse the analysis of the last game, but my impression is that Topalov was simply better prepared and better evaluated the resulting positions. A solid chess game -- I hope we can see a few more of those. TopNotch wrote on 10/07/06 at 02:22:24: BTW I thought they were supposed to play today 06/Oct/2006, was a rest day called? The revised schedule is as follows: October 3 - rest day October 4 - Game 7 Topalov-Kramnik October 5 - Game 8 Kramnik-Topalov October 6 - rest day October 7 - Game 9 Topalov-Kramnik October 8 - Game 10 Kramnik-Topalov October 9 - Rest day October 10 - Game 11 Topalov-Kramnik October 11 - Rest day October 12 - Game 12 Kramnik - Topalov October 13 - Tiebreaks and Closing Ceremony


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #672 - 10/07/06 at 02:22:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/06/06 at 19:23:52: Sicilian was part of Kramnik's repertoire at least as recently as 2004 - mainly Sveshnikov recently I think, but also Najdorf and Classical (iirc) not too long ago. The real question to be asked here is when was Kramnik last successful with the Sicilian. Granted if he needs to win as black to make up for the gifted point, there maybe no choice but to play it, who knows. But doesn't Kramnik have a couple White's left? In any case its all academic as I predict that should Kramnik lead by one point going into the last game, Topalov's team will hatch some plot to abort the match and have it ratified by Fide. Nothing would surprise me anymore. Maybe in the long run some good will come of all this. Topalot BTW I thought they were supposed to play today 06/Oct/2006, was a rest day called?

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #671 - 10/07/06 at 01:56:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	MarinFan wrote on 10/06/06 at 11:00:20: I agree that Kramnik looked worse in the endgame from the very beginning of it. Watching the game on ICC was amazed that some GM's thought that white could be better, maybe explained by there lack of focus when not there own games, who knows. Forgive me if I seem to be following all my own posts without giving anyone else a chance to respond, but I haven't long got in and so I'm just making up for lost time. Intuitively looking at the position I thought white was a bit better early on as his rooks seemed active and a pair of knights are not considered nearly as dangerous as a pair of bishops or even a bishop and knight in such situations. But intuition is intuition and it often has to be validated by concrete analysis, the position to my eye was quite deceptive, and Topalov's apparent deep preparation here must be acknowledged. It turned out that the activity of Kramnik's rooks was only illusory and lacking clear targets failed to restrict black to passive defence allowing Topalov to unravel like a coiled spring. I don't see why it is inconceivable that a GM or IM would have thought White's chances a bit better at the beginning of that ending. Topper

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #670 - 10/07/06 at 01:30:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/06/06 at 10:51:13: Taljechin -- Point 1 on the game: You are not seriously trying to say Kramnik intended to go into this endgame? Its amazing but though ...Qa5 is a novelty it is an obvious move It didn't look obvious at all to me but rather dubious, of course after the complications clarified, Topalov's judgement proved to be correct. Maybe you are right after all that Qa5 is an obvious move to anyone, but its a bit odd that such an obvious move hasn't been tested before. No one could argue with the mating attack at the end though, which was particularly striking, although given the misadventures of game two maybe Kramnik should have made him prove it. Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #669 - 10/07/06 at 01:00:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/06/06 at 10:01:25: You miss the point - he is not even considering Danailov´s actions in my opinion, all his energy is solely on the games - this would be typical Topalov strategy. For him to consider his managers actions is only a distraction at this stage - put yourselves in the players situation, it is hard enough to deal with playing at this level without having to worry about other stuff - that it is the trap Kramnik is falling into. PS - comparisons with mafia bosses and dictators is over the top, Danailovs actions I condemn in strongest posible terms, but you cannot put the action of someone accusing his mans opponent of cheating in the same league as mafia bosses and dictators. We have seen these tactics before in World ch matches, it is not nice or gentlemanly, but unfortunately it happens. The Kramnik team need to deal with the situation better. No Keano it is you that have missed the point completely, and I think that you have allowed adulation for Topalov's playing style to cloud your judgement. For the record I much prefer Topalov's playing style too, but that is not what is in question here, and I find your simplistic rationalisations ludicrous. A) Topalov by not putting the muzzle on his employee Danialov and or forcing him to apologise is implicit approval - FULL STOP. B) In fact, rather than stop it, Topalov allowed Danialov to continue his obscene and extremely distasteful attacks. C)This is perhaps the most important point to realise and accept. Now listen carefully - It was not Topalov/Danailov's accusation of cheating that really derailed Kramnik, it upset him yes, but that could have been overcome. What could not have been overcome however was the clear outrageous and illegal actions of the appeals committee who later were forced to resign in disgrace. These actions led by force to Kramnik being unable to play game 5, and then incredibly being forfeited at a critical point when a time out should have been called to restore the situation. D) Kramnik chose to continue despite being robbed of a point, while Topalov on the otherhand said he would not have continued the match if the cheating accusation appeal laid by his employee Danailov was not upheld. Therefore Topalov by his stance was ensuring that one way or the other he woud retain his fide title, either by default or by nefarious means. E) If you persued the Chessbase site today, and read the open letter by GM Bartlomiej Macieja, you would realise that the forfeit of game 5 could have been reversed and it should have been, there is precedent for it. F) The main reason why Topalov didn't field questions regarding the Fritz accusations is not so that he could devote all his time to preparation, thats crap - It's because he's embarrassed and cannot defend and indefensible position. Sadly it is very difficult for many to understand a situation or empathise with an aggrieved party unless they have suffered a similiar fate, and that is truly unfortunate. This must rank as one of the most contemptable World Championship matches in recent memory, not so much for the outrageous accusation laid but for how it was dealt with. Lets hope that Kramnik can somehow rebound from all this and take the title, or else I fear that the future of organised chess is grim indeed. On reflection it maybe better for chess as an organised sport to hit rock bottom, as experience tells me that things usually have to get much worse before they get better. Its amazing what people are so willing to accept once its done. I am curious to see how all this will eventually play out, and I don't mean on the board, its way beyond that now. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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StuntLinguist YaBB Newbies Offline Pronouncer of strange and difficult words. Posts: 42 Location: columbia Joined: 10/09/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #668 - 10/07/06 at 00:32:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Another slav suits me just fine! I've just recently begun to play the slav and I can't think of better motivation to examine theory than getting to see world class games 2 or 3 days each week I'm really curious to see if Topalov comes out pressing hard or not. To be totally honest, the only result that would disappoint me at this point is if the match got (re-) canceled. Isn't great chess what we all want? If we have one side to really root for, so much the better! On a very minor side note, I'd like to point out that Bulgaria was essentially a province of the USSR until 1989. The eastern mindset really is quite different from the western, so I'm not entirely sure if Topalov is as much the "boss" of his team as we might think. It's very possible that he and danailov share an equal role, being ruled by sponsors, etc. From '46 to at least '89 the country was communist/marxist. Citizens, regardless of how remarkable their talents might be, were the "property" of the state and used for the advancement of that state. I'm not trying to absolve anyone of their sins, but I hope we're at least open to the idea that the Bulgarian team hierarchy may not fit our western stereotypes. SL


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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #667 - 10/06/06 at 23:44:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am surprised that anyone thinks Kramnik would play a Sveshnikov at this stage in the match. It is certainly possible, but I thought it was assumed that Kramnik would play the Petroff against 1.e4 He was successful with it in his Leko match and it doesn't tend to get nearly as 'messy' as a Sveshnikov. Also, isn't Raetsky is on Kramnik's team? I'm sure they're very well prepared. I also think Topalov hasn't been outplayed as in the opening yet, so why switch? However, I would like to see 1.e4 played by Topalov since I think it suits his style better than 1.d4, although he is very strong with either of course. Four games to go!

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #666 - 10/06/06 at 19:23:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sicilian was part of Kramnik's repertoire at least as recently as 2004 - mainly Sveshnikov recently I think, but also Najdorf and Classical (iirc) not too long ago. I don't see a compelling reason for Topalov to go with 1.e4, however, with 1.d4 working just fine (at least as far as opening is concerned).

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #665 - 10/06/06 at 18:17:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/06/06 at 18:06:40: A what???? When did Kramnik last play the Sicilian? Or did you mean in later games when he's White? Dont know when he last played it, but he is very well versed in the sicilian and I think if Topalov opens 1e4 he might smell a rat due to yesterdays preparation. After all this wasnt a line many would expect Kramnik to play yet Topalov came with the novelty (and a psycholgical very good one). I am fairly confident that Kramnik didnt just prepare Petrovs and Berlins against e4.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #664 - 10/06/06 at 18:09:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, along with Leko, he is perhaps the greatest expert in the world on holding the various inferior Sveshnikov endings, so the thought doesn't strike me as being all that outlandish.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #663 - 10/06/06 at 18:06:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	A what???? When did Kramnik last play the Sicilian? Or did you mean in later games when he's White?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #662 - 10/06/06 at 17:59:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'll be bold and suggest we will see a sicilian. Or rather I hope we will see one.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #661 - 10/06/06 at 16:34:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	I get the impression that finding a theoretical edge is of secondary importance for these guys compared to getting positions that match their strengths, even if they are roughly equal (in white's case) or slightly worse (in Black's case). Does anyone else get this feeling? I always thought that opening preparation was all about finding a theoretical edge somewhere by coming up with fresh new (strong) ideas, but my opinion is starting to undergo refinements and modifications. I'm a patzer without a deep understanding of the game, so maybe i'm just getting a basic education now!


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #660 - 10/06/06 at 16:28:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	I definitely think Topalov will use the Nf3, e3 move order. He could still try Bf4 or Bg5 instead of a4 in the QGA with fair prospects: it just seems to be a position more suitable for Topalov than Kramnik. I'm very curious what he (Topa) has cooked up vs. the ultra-solid 4...Bf5 though. There is a chance, however, that his team could have come up with something good in the main line Slav 6.Ne5 or the Dutch Slav 6.e3 now that they've had a few days to work on it. Overall I'd say it's about 60% d4,c4,Nf3,e3 and 40% d4,c4,Nf3,Nc3. I'd agree with John that e4 is probably out now. Maybe not for Kramnik, though, if he falls behind!


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #659 - 10/06/06 at 15:41:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think we'll start off with a Slav where Topalov with stick with 4.e3. The game will continue as a Semi-Slav and Kramnik, if allowed, will go for a Meran. Topalov has no reason to avoid a Meran so this might be what we'll see. I doubt we'll see the QGA transposition again; I think that was a one time thing. If the game starts off with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 then we won't see 4...Bf5 of course, but I suppose after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Kramnik could choose 4...Bf5 although I don't expect this. Kramnik has a couple of games in this line from 1993-1995 but hasn't played it in over 10 years.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #658 - 10/06/06 at 14:42:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Anyway, changing the subject, how about some predictions for game nine and the rest of the match? My predictions: Game 9: Topalov to stick with d4. It’s surely too late to risk coming across a bomb in the Petroff now. Kramnik I think will stick to what he’s been doing. Topalov’s now pretty much tried all the early move orders against the Slav and indeed all the main tries. I think he might try the line from game 7 again, allowing the QGA. I’m not sure Kramnik was altogether convincing in game 7. Will Kramnik then play the tame 4…Bf5? I doubt it somehow if he didn’t before. Maybe 4…Bg4? Overall: I think we’ve seen the end of the nonsense; Danailov’s got what he wanted. Who’s going to win? I’m afraid I think Topalov will win and what’s more by +2. He is famous for gaining strength as events go on, and it’s clear that Kramnik is not playing well. Kramnik gathered his strength for a fantastic effort against Leko, but I don’t think he can do it again in these circumstances. Anyone else?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #657 - 10/06/06 at 14:11:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Remind me what Karpov got up to in 1974? I don't remember it. 1978 was bad, agreed, although I don't think it was as bad. It's not like Korchnoi was a saint. But it's long past time parapsychologists were banned as part of delegations. I don't know what they are, but good guys don't seem to need them. I don't think anyone is saying the psychological antics affect whether Topalov's a good player or not. We're saying we think they have made Kramnik play worse and thus we're not finding out who is truly the best player. To say nothing of the fact that the player who has won more games isn't leading the match. 'Overpressing' - well, he played too sharply in the opening for his mood or form, or whatever. Call it what you will. Do lay off the Drawnik nonsense.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #656 - 10/06/06 at 14:07:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/06/06 at 10:09:19: TalJechin wrote on 10/06/06 at 09:52:52: Admittedly, not an easy task after losing due to overpressing as white... This is a view of the game also put forward by John Cox. However - completely incorrect! Kramnik did not over-press in this game at all: 1) He was out prepared and went into an endgame he had not looked at. 2) The endgame, in my opinion better for Black, may be holdable, but he was comprehensibly outplayed between moves 30-40, in a fine performance by Topalov and some rather weak moves from Kramnik. Over-Pressed? No - he lost control early and was outplayed - dont try and put a slant on it. From Game 8 post-game press conference: Quote: Q: Could it be caused by complacency after three Black draws? VK: I don’t believe I lost because I was complacent. On the contrary, I played aggressively today, trying to win. But the game developed unsuccessfully – the opponent was lucky to see all his pieces arriving at proper locations sharp on time. His position did not fall apart almost by a miracle. Then I overpressed, and ended up in an unpleasant endgame. In addition, I defended in the worst possible way. I considered the position drawish, but it wasn’t so simple. After 37…g3 I see no saving chances for White. Maybe this settles the issue of whether Kramnik overpressed in game 8?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #655 - 10/06/06 at 13:53:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am a bit puzzled by the strong connection several contributions make between the psychological warfare antics and the quality of Topalov as a chessplayer. Based on the games so far I simply think Topalov has entertained us better and shown more enterprising chess than Drawnik. His seventh game was the only reasonable good game so far. If we apply the same standards we couldnt respect Karpov as a world champion. His psychological warfare against Korchnoi probably exceeded anything I have seen so far. This applies both to the 1974 and the 1978 match. Still I respect him as a chessplayer and a legitimate world champion, though I can't respect his attitude when not behind a chessboard. The statement that only the Bulgarians will be able to respect Topalov as a world champion is rather beside the mark (I am not a Bulgarian). As for the eighth game I cant read it as Kramnik overpressing, but rather as Kramniks position gradually worsening. There where perhaps some points where he could have played better, but this was a difficult endgame, and Topalovs judgement and/or preparation were simply superior.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #654 - 10/06/06 at 13:08:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	I was wondering actually when and how Kramnik came to hear about that. Surely they wouldn't have told him before the game; maybe someone showed it to him just before the conference. It would be better if he could ignore it, but it's not that easy. TopNotch is right; the reason this stuff is so incendiary is it's so easy and so effective (and so damaging to the game). And you're right too that it is more effective against Kramnik than it would be against Topalov. That's why it's so important Kramnik wins; once it's shown this stuff works there'll be more of it.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #653 - 10/06/06 at 12:57:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Taljechin - I know where you are coming from trying to say a player has responsibility for his Managers actions, but the analogies you use are misleading for one reason - Danailov however much distasteful his accusations have been, and potentially damaging for the game, has done nothing illegal. It is well known Topalov leaves all non-chess matters to Danailov, I agree if Danailov was breaking the law then Topalov would also be liable - all I am doing is pointing out that Topalov is just playing chess here - he has always implicitly trusted Danailov in the past and it has served him well - in this case I believe it is not serving him well but thats another story. Danailov was deliberately trying to give Kramnik another distraction to think about, I am pretty certain about that. See my earlier comments for how I think the Kramnik team should handle this and how they have really handled this the wrong way. Kramnik actually entertained the question about the Fritz percentages in his last press conference and started making comparisons which showed that he had actually been thinking about this - the tactic succeded when it should not, another thing to occupy Kramniks head with.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #652 - 10/06/06 at 12:34:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Correction - in game 4 e3 came before ...e6, so Bg5 was already ruled out. But still the meran is sharp enough.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #651 - 10/06/06 at 12:31:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/06/06 at 10:51:13: Taljechin -- Point 1 on the game: You are not seriously trying to say Kramnik intended to go into this endgame? Its amazing but though ...Qa5 is a novelty it is an obvious move but I suspect after ...Be7 Kramnik was already out of his preparation the way the game went. Then again Topalov is not a Semi-Slav man, so I expect the Kramnik team did not spend much time here. There was one last chance to avoid the R+P v 2 pieces scenario (b3) but its not pleasant to play with the Knight stuck on a4 so this would be an admission of defeat. So let me see, you think he was trying to "squash" Topalov in this line .... an interesting assessment Point 2 - you´re making the same analogy again... Point 2 - and you fail to understand it again. Morally, the same laws should apply for all. But I see there's no point in discussing that with you. You probably think Tonya Harding was totally innocent as well... Point 1 - obviously I don't play the Slav or QG, so my first impression was indeed that he sacrificed. (As otherwise something like 14.Nxd7 Nxd7 15.b3 seems safer to me.) And maybe he did? As ...Qa5 was played on the next move in the stemgame from '74 - and I noticed that in '92 Schach-Archiv recommended "11.dxc5 Qa5!" so it's certainly not an unknown move in that kind of position. So I'd guess that Kramnik either underestimated Qa5 or else his state of mind after the recent provocation was so upset that he wasn't thinking clearly.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #650 - 10/06/06 at 12:02:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sure, British players dive. What's your point? Although actually here too there is a distinction: the full-on, no-contact dive is still reviled widely here, although you do see it. Owen himself is adamant that he goes down when touched even if he doesn't have to, rather than planning to dive, and I've never seen anything to prove he's not telling the truth. We have much worse divers than Owen - Andy Johnson, for one. Keano: if you say so; I don't remember it. But hell - Manchester United players, what would you expect? Maradona: great player; cheating scumbag. No contradiction there. (Interesting how drugs though are basically acceptable in football. Wonder if that'll ever change)


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #649 - 10/06/06 at 11:49:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Owen's theatrics? I follow football as well

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #648 - 10/06/06 at 11:47:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	John - Gordon McQueen scored a "hand of god" goal for Man Utd in the FA cup final many years ago - he went off celebrating with the team as if it was a great goal....but...the referee had spotted it and it was disallowed. I think you are giving the Brits a bit too much credit for fair-play. On Maradona, for me the man is a legend - the drugs cocktail episode is a black mark but he was already over-the-hill by then really and unfortunately his life seems to be riddled with drugs. Nevertheless I have never witnessed a player like him in my lifetime (I am too young to have seen or compared him with Pele)


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #647 - 10/06/06 at 11:42:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	It must be right that they're not obliged to ask questions about theoretical duels which might recur later in the match, Willempie. But I expect you're right and there's no contractual obligation. It's clear that even if there was FIDE wouldn't make Topalov answer anyway, for all sorts of reasons.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #646 - 10/06/06 at 11:41:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie, you're missing my point about British football tactics; they're not saintly at all but they're different. Like any game football has its rules and its unwritten rules, the latter are much the more important and vary significantly from place to place. Vinnie Jones and many other people are dirty as hell, quite prepared to squeeze opponent's testicles, and all the rest, but they would never fake injury: this is one thing British footballers and crowds will not stand for. It's not a question of morality; they would simply consider it soft and demeaning. And the hairpull too is different; this is a means of fighting for the ball, and Crouch like any professional has his dirty ways of doing that. I still maintain that you won't see British players attempting the full-on Hand of God routine. I've never seen it and I've been watching British football religiously for thirty years.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #645 - 10/06/06 at 11:35:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK, woofwoof, I’m sorry I called you a fool. I shouldn’t have done that. I’m used to robust message room discourse and being called far worse myself, but I realise this isn’t quite a normal message board. But ‘Drawnik’ is not funny and does not do you any credit, and you are mistaken in my view that Kramnik has been ‘playing for draws’ in this match. In game four he played the semi-Slav, challenging Topalov to go 5 Bg5, one of the sharpest openings in chess, and Topalov declined. In game six it was Topalov who chose this early exchange of queens rather than going down sharper and also theoretically approved lines (I suspect both players were happy to draw this game and get back playing). In game seven, as I posted, Kramnik made a courageous opening choice and came very close to winning – it was Topalov in this game who declined to sharpen the struggle critically with more example 25 g4!?. And in game eight Kramnik again went for a sharp opening, reacted critically to an innovation, sacrificed material and lost.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #644 - 10/06/06 at 11:33:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/06/06 at 11:20:36: Keano - I know what you mean that Kramnik is making a mistake by getting into this. I don't know what the contractual position is about press conferences - I didn't know they were allowed to confine questions. If I were the sponsor I wouldn't have that, but of course Kirsan does what he likes. Certainly though it's good tactics for Topalov to be shielded from it. Kramnik himself did it at the press conference of one of the 1st few games, saying something like I am not answering about the first 20 moves. I think they are only obliged to hold a press conference, not obliged to answer any sort of question.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #643 - 10/06/06 at 11:29:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/06/06 at 11:22:58: I don't agree about the meaning of the word, Keano: overpressing to me simply means playing more optimistically than the position warrants, whether you were better in the first place or not. If it's equal and you play too aggressively in the belief you're better, for example, surely you'd call that 'overpressing'? But I think we're agreeing pretty much on the course of the game and just disagreeing about which words to use to describe it. OK, we'll skip the semantic discussion On the Kramnik situation dealing with press conferences and his current predicament - I know its tough but if I was Kramniks manager I would censor my man from all media and all press releases - everything! For the next 4 games my man Kramnik would just think about one thing - the chess match. In the press conferences I would do as Danailov did - say my man Kramnik would only answer questions about the chess otherwise it was end of press conference. Its drastic - but this is the World Championship, and in my opinion the Kramnik team has not dealt well with the Danailov distractions.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #642 - 10/06/06 at 11:27:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/06/06 at 10:40:59: Willempie, Diego Maradona is surely reviled throughout the world as a drugs cheat, isn't he? I know the Argentineans love him, but apart from them. He is mainly (or rather only) reviled by the English. My point was that with "the hand of god" he cheated. Yet by almost all he is considered one of the very best players ever and still very much admired even with the occassional punter about his drugs use. The goalie of England in that game is all but forgotten by all except some English football experts. Quote: Anyway (if Markovich will forgive another crass, ignorant, etc, etc, stereotype) the South Americans generally have a different view of football morality; punching the ball into the net is a no-no here, as is feigning injury, whereas in SA this sort of thing is fine - remember Rivaldo in the 2002 WC, or indeed Sorin trying to score with a handball exactly the same in the 2005 Argentina-England friendly. Topalov's going to be the same; the Bulgarians will love him but for everyone else, barring the constituencies I mentioned above, he'll be remembered as a lowlife. Firstly I disagree on the subject of South Americans football mentality. Brits are just as prone to these kind of things. Just watch a Vince Jones video or Crouch' hairhandling against Trinidad Quote: I don't know what you mean even by Kramnik's saying 'we can basically do this match in between', let alone it being psychological warfare. On every occasion when asked about the match or about the game he downplays the effort he would need. That is what I mean with the "psychological warfare".

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #641 - 10/06/06 at 11:22:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	I don't agree about the meaning of the word, Keano: overpressing to me simply means playing more optimistically than the position warrants, whether you were better in the first place or not. If it's equal and you play too aggressively in the belief you're better, for example, surely you'd call that 'overpressing'? But I think we're agreeing pretty much on the course of the game and just disagreeing about which words to use to describe it.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #640 - 10/06/06 at 11:20:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Scholar, I agree that Kramnik has been on balance slightly outprepared in this match, yes. It is interesting that should be so, too. Perhaps only slightly, certainly in the last two games a bit. Before that I suppose you would say that six was a success for Kramnik, in four he at least defused Topalov's novelty. The two Catalans were about equal, and in two no-one really triumphed theoretically; you could say that Topalov did pretty well against Kramnik's new move. But then theory is always Topalov's strength, and in the past reacting well and critically to novelties has been one of Kramnik's. Perhaps with computers so strong these days that particular policy is simply no longer possible? Keano - I know what you mean that Kramnik is making a mistake by getting into this. I don't know what the contractual position is about press conferences - I didn't know they were allowed to confine questions. If I were the sponsor I wouldn't have that, but of course Kirsan does what he likes. Certainly though it's good tactics for Topalov to be shielded from it. But you do have to consider the character of the two. Kramnik is an intelligent, articulate individual who is accustomed to speak for himself, to have opinions and control his own destiny. Topalov by his own account is a kind of idiot savant who leaves everything to his manager, leaves preparation largely to Cheparinov, and directs everything towards playing. Moreover, Kramnik's integrity and his life's work are being impugned whereas Topalov's aren't. It's very, very hard for Kramnik not to react, and he may be doing the right thing. He knows the journalists will be sympathetic, and he may find it better talking about it than not talking about it. But to be sure it must be terribly distracting. I really don’t see how he can play at all: he must be sick of the game, angry at his opponent, furious at the officials and in no state to play properly. As I’ve said, if he wins it will be the biggest feat in the history of these matches. That’s why these accusations are so unfair and why any decent administration would have stamped on it immediately, offered Kramnik a timeout if he wanted it and fined Topalov the maximum possible percentage of his match fee for unsportsmanlike behaviour, but we’ve kinda been there, I guess. It’s much worse than Baguio: there at least it was possible to suppose that Karpov was drawing support from Zoukhar rather than trying to attack Korchnoi, and the yogurt protest was really by way of a joke.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #639 - 10/06/06 at 11:04:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	"Overpressing" again John, by definition to over-press you must have a better position to begin with -Kramnik never had. You could argue that he lost his objectivity and mis-assessed the resulting position, but more likely as I suggested is that he had already lost control and was simply following the only course available.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #638 - 10/06/06 at 11:00:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano, yes of course he was outplayed. Overpressing is being outplayed. I'm not sure what distinction you're making. But as Rowson would say, a blunder is never just a blunder. I think it's fairly clear where the psychological roots of this particular defeat lay.


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #637 - 10/06/06 at 11:00:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	I agree that Kramnik looked worse in the endgame from the very beginning of it. Watching the game on ICC was amazed that some GM's thought that white could be better, maybe explained by there lack of focus when not there own games, who knows. A French GM, forget the name, was explaining that it was good for black to keep a single rook, which could be switched from queen-side to king-side to support knights. Apparantly Kramnik missed an opportunity to force the exchange of this last rook. There is a book by Quality Chess on these themes, Rook v two minor pieces, which was panned somewhat by Jonathan Rowson in a review, basically he didn't think the writer was strong enough to attempt such a book.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #636 - 10/06/06 at 10:58:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich, I'm afraid I do discount the idea of a complaint in good faith, yes. First, while one might initially be prepared to believe it was in good faith, the no handshaking press release, and the subsequent Fritz press release, make this impossible. No serious person could take the 78% stuff remotely seriously. Second, there are a million innocent reasons why a person might want to retreat from the TV cameras at such a stressful time. Repeated access to the loo is not in my opinion in the slightest bit suspicious. Third, it is abundantly apparent from the moves that Kramnik is not receiving computer help. Computers play six-man positions perfectly and instantly. In game two Kramnik let the win slip in a (very difficult) six-man position. In game 3, 17 Ne4 is suggested more or less instantly by the computer and is clearly best. This was one move after Kramnik was supposed to have spent a lot of time in the loo, according to the protest itself. Fourth, the security arrangements were agreed before the match. The metal detectors, the anti-radio measures, the prevention of outside access to the toilet windows, and so on. If there was to be any kind of limit on the bathroom visits, this was the time to mention it. Fifth, the Bulgarian team could have had no conceivable reason for suspicion if they had not obtained the tapes which they should not have had. There was clearly culpable procedural impropriety even before the complaint was made. Sixth, the complaint contained an outright lie which has now flown round the world in the traditional manner before the truth can get its boots on (the 50-visits lie, which still appears in any discussion with non-players). Seventh, Topalov himself has said that he does not think Kramnik is cheating. Then his team release this Fritz nonsense. Eighth, the complaint could clearly have been couched in different terms if there was genuine concern and the object was truly prevention rather than destabilisation - eliminating the possibility, appearances paramount in the light of the interest and significance of the match, that sort of thing. Instead it was clearly written in such a way as to incense Kramnik to the maximum extent, and incidentally drag the game through the mud in the public eye. I could go on, but that will do. I cannot accept that Topalov's team protested in good faith, no.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #635 - 10/06/06 at 10:54:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/06/06 at 10:44:37: 'overpressed' - it's a matter of words. He played aggressively in the opening and passed by a number of quieter alternatives around moves 11-12 and in particular move 14 - look up the theory if you don't believe me. Yes, he ran into a novelty and yes, he did have to respond critically with 16 Bc6, but he didn't have to follow through with Rfc1. He overestimated his own form. As I said before, we should have realised that his first White would be a particularly testing time for him psychologically, and so should he. He should have gone there with the clear intent to make a draw - think how Petrosian or Karpov would have played, or indeed the great Gazza himself in 1984 - but he's never been able to do that. OK John but you are talking about earlier alternatives in known theory - once he was taken out of theory he was outplayed. Do you disagree?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #634 - 10/06/06 at 10:51:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Taljechin -- Point 1 on the game: You are not seriously trying to say Kramnik intended to go into this endgame? Its amazing but though ...Qa5 is a novelty it is an obvious move but I suspect after ...Be7 Kramnik was already out of his preparation the way the game went. Then again Topalov is not a Semi-Slav man, so I expect the Kramnik team did not spend much time here. There was one last chance to avoid the R+P v 2 pieces scenario (b3) but its not pleasant to play with the Knight stuck on a4 so this would be an admission of defeat. So let me see, you think he was trying to "squash" Topalov in this line .... an interesting assessment Point 2 - you´re making the same analogy again...


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #633 - 10/06/06 at 10:44:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	'overpressed' - it's a matter of words. He played aggressively in the opening and passed by a number of quieter alternatives around moves 11-12 and in particular move 14 - look up the theory if you don't believe me. Yes, he ran into a novelty and yes, he did have to respond critically with 16 Bc6, but he didn't have to follow through with Rfc1. He overestimated his own form. As I said before, we should have realised that his first White would be a particularly testing time for him psychologically, and so should he. He should have gone there with the clear intent to make a draw - think how Petrosian or Karpov would have played, or indeed the great Gazza himself in 1984 - but he's never been able to do that.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #632 - 10/06/06 at 10:41:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/06/06 at 10:09:19: TalJechin wrote on 10/06/06 at 09:52:52: Admittedly, not an easy task after losing due to overpressing as white... This is a view of the game also put forward by John Cox. However - completely incorrect! Kramnik did not over-press in this game at all: 1) He was out prepared and went into an endgame he had not looked at. 2) The endgame, in my opinion better for Black, may be holdable, but he was comprehensibly outplayed between moves 30-40, in a fine performance by Topalov and some rather weak moves from Kramnik. Over-Pressed? No - he lost control early and was outplayed - dont try and put a slant on it. So you mean that Kramnik had to give up two pieces for R+p?? Personally, I think he was trying to squash WeCelin for that fritz-cheater accusation 15 minutes before the start. Another point 'won' by Danailov... Quote: You miss the point - he is not even considering Danailov´s actions in my opinion, all his energy is solely on the games Hmm, disinterest in how one's subjects interprets one's orders is not a defence.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #631 - 10/06/06 at 10:40:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie, Diego Maradona is surely reviled throughout the world as a drugs cheat, isn't he? I know the Argentineans love him, but apart from them. Anyway (if Markovich will forgive another crass, ignorant, etc, etc, stereotype) the South Americans generally have a different view of football morality; punching the ball into the net is a no-no here, as is feigning injury, whereas in SA this sort of thing is fine - remember Rivaldo in the 2002 WC, or indeed Sorin trying to score with a handball exactly the same in the 2005 Argentina-England friendly. Topalov's going to be the same; the Bulgarians will love him but for everyone else, barring the constituencies I mentioned above, he'll be remembered as a lowlife. I don't know what you mean even by Kramnik's saying 'we can basically do this match in between', let alone it being psychological warfare.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #630 - 10/06/06 at 10:09:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 10/06/06 at 09:52:52: Admittedly, not an easy task after losing due to overpressing as white... This is a view of the game also put forward by John Cox. However - completely incorrect! Kramnik did not over-press in this game at all: 1) He was out prepared and went into an endgame he had not looked at. 2) The endgame, in my opinion better for Black, may be holdable, but he was comprehensibly outplayed between moves 30-40, in a fine performance by Topalov and some rather weak moves from Kramnik. Over-Pressed? No - he lost control early and was outplayed - dont try and put a slant on it.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #629 - 10/06/06 at 10:01:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	You miss the point - he is not even considering Danailov´s actions in my opinion, all his energy is solely on the games - this would be typical Topalov strategy. For him to consider his managers actions is only a distraction at this stage - put yourselves in the players situation, it is hard enough to deal with playing at this level without having to worry about other stuff - that it is the trap Kramnik is falling into. PS - comparisons with mafia bosses and dictators is over the top, Danailovs actions I condemn in strongest posible terms, but you cannot put the action of someone accusing his mans opponent of cheating in the same league as mafia bosses and dictators. We have seen these tactics before in World ch matches, it is not nice or gentlemanly, but unfortunately it happens. The Kramnik team need to deal with the situation better.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #628 - 10/06/06 at 09:52:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/06/06 at 07:51:34: Also I disagree that Topalov is somehow approving of Danailov´s actions. Rubbish. Any employer clearly dissatisfied with the work of his employee, Danailov, would fire him. That he choose to not dirty his own hands is not an excuse - there are thousands of examples of mafia bosses, dictators etc that do the same i.e. hire hands to do illegal and/or immoral things for them. And no sane unbribed person would believe mafia bosses and dictators are innocent of their subjects actions - though legally it may be hard to prove... A picture that sums up the match so far - at another forum someone claimed it's from Kirsan's statement that the result in game five will stand - guess who the guy laughing is?! http://chesspro.ru/match/images/photo/vas_89.jpg Anyway, the only good from 4-4 is that Kramnik will need prove he deserves to win not only morally but also because he's (hopefully) the stronger player. I.e. He'll need to find his own play again instead of just defending his lead. Admittedly, not an easy task after losing due to overpressing as white...


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #627 - 10/06/06 at 09:30:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	woofwoof wrote on 10/05/06 at 16:47:36: Drawnik please stop using the word drawnik. It is not funny at all.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #626 - 10/06/06 at 07:51:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	On the issue of the separate press conferences, and Topalov only willing to talk about the chess - this I believe is excellent tactics by the Topalov team, I disagree with previous comments that it is somehow unsporting. I suspect Topalov has been instructed to concentrate solely on chess, whereas by contrast Kramnik had to field questions about Fritz in his press conference - this seems very much a mistake by the Kramnik team as it is using up valuable nervous energy and in essence a complete distraction for him. Kramnik should do likewise and only field questions on chess - as I said before his team should somehow insulate him from anymore Danailov distractions, it seems like they are allowing other issues to distract their man. Also I disagree that Topalov is somehow approving of Danailov´s actions. His previous comments were conciliatory to Kramnik and he said he felt his play was fair. I believe the 2 players have a healthy respect for each other. Knowing a little of the history of Topalov´s relationship with Danailov he will leave all non-chess mattters completely to Danailov and concentrate solely on playing.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #625 - 10/06/06 at 06:42:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Its amazing that you think my entire argument consists of "Kramnik Good, Topalov Bad." Frankly, I put a lot of time into my posts (getting statistics, checking previous games, Fritz analysis, official sites, etc.) and I think I've brought up several strong points, which you have completely ignored. completely. And as I've mentioned twice already, I do not hate Topalov. I think he is a brilliant and exciting player, but he should be ashamed of this match. It's just so obvious. These constant accusations (without any proof or even correct math), the daily insults to Kramnik, and his refusal to even answer questions about his team are unacceptable behavior. This is the most embarrassing match chess as seen for decades and it seems very clear to almost every non-Bulgarian who is responsible. But why bother writing out a detail response when its completely unheeded? How can you debate someone who wouldn't stick to the topic or bother reading the arguments against his case? Why bother listing elo performace rating to discuss how a player is playing or offer any game analysis when you can just say "Well, I personally think Kramnik isn't playing very well." Anway, as you wisely said in another thread, I've said my peace and that's enough of that. I look forward to reading your future posts. This match really is something special huh? OK imo you can argue whether the Toppy team has gone too far (or made themselves look like idiots) with the Fritzything. But from before the start of the match psychological warfare was used as a weapon by both parties, with Topalov being the more direct one (eg why should I play against him) and Kramnik the more indirect (we can do this match basically in between). The toilet complaint is I think what escalated matters and I think the committee made the wrong decision. For the rest I havent seen much spectacularly wrong by any of the sides. To me in a sport match you do everything needed to win including pushing the boundaries, otherwise people should stick to the olympics with their motto of participating is better than winning. To use a real life over the boundaries English example (I dont think Topalov has gone that far). Who is the sporting hero to millions Peter Shilton or Diego Maradona?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #624 - 10/06/06 at 06:23:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	I don't like psychological warfare. But in my opinion both teams put in their share. As to the fritz-accusation I think the Topalov team went to far. Nevertheless I hope Topalov will win this match. Kramnik has not shown us hardly any enterprising or entertaining play. Imho the seventh game was the first reasonable good game he played. Topalov on the other hand played enterprising in most of the games (except the sixth). His win in the eigth game was well deserved. You dont need to be a Bulgarian to love his playing style


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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #623 - 10/06/06 at 01:48:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Its amazing that you think my entire argument consists of "Kramnik Good, Topalov Bad." Frankly, I put a lot of time into my posts (getting statistics, checking previous games, Fritz analysis, official sites, etc.) and I think I've brought up several strong points, which you have completely ignored. completely. And as I've mentioned twice already, I do not hate Topalov. I think he is a brilliant and exciting player, but he should be ashamed of this match. It's just so obvious. These constant accusations (without any proof or even correct math), the daily insults to Kramnik, and his refusal to even answer questions about his team are unacceptable behavior. This is the most embarrassing match chess as seen for decades and it seems very clear to almost every non-Bulgarian who is responsible. But why bother writing out a detail response when its completely unheeded? How can you debate someone who wouldn't stick to the topic or bother reading the arguments against his case? Why bother listing elo performace rating to discuss how a player is playing or offer any game analysis when you can just say "Well, I personally think Kramnik isn't playing very well." Anway, as you wisely said in another thread, I've said my peace and that's enough of that. I look forward to reading your future posts. This match really is something special huh?

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #622 - 10/06/06 at 01:41:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 10/06/06 at 00:57:34: Markovich wrote on 10/06/06 at 00:31:39: TopNotch wrote on 10/06/06 at 00:15:53: I guess this means that neither woofwoof nor Markovich will be purchasing a copy of 'd pawn deviations' anytime soon, or maybe its already too late. Tops I know that responding to this makes me sound self-important, but it's necessary anyway. Your remark is nonsense, of course. I have no personal dislike for John Cox. How could I? I barely know him. I've said that in my view, some of his recent remarks go a bit too far, but I've done my best, I hope, to characterize his remarks and not him personally. Startout Out: Alekhine's Defence was a useful and interesting book, why wouldn't this one be? Even if I thought of him as some here do of Topalov, I would still buy his book. The thing is Markovich, you rarely if ever directly address any of Cox's points as it relates to the match, you simply avoid them. He did however address yours and quite emphatically I might add. I cannot speak for Mr. Cox but one of the reasons why I am so upset by the happenings in Elista is as a tournament player myself who has represented his country I would hate to think that someone could get away with what Topalov and his team apparently did. The effect on ones psyche under such circumstances cannot be fully appreciated and grasped by a lay person, I suspect that that is why so many GM's have come out in support of Kramnik and expressed awe and admiration that he could continue in such circumstances. Your nonchalance regarding both players the match and the unfortuante circumstances surrounded it are duly noted, but do not get annoyed by those of us who show concern. Toppy Well, I can only say that I do my best to engage his points, and I do modestly think I answer his fairly well. This belongs on the "Toilet" thread, but if you want to continue there, show me the points that, according to you, I haven't engaged, and I'll do my best to do so. If you're going to critique the debate, critique it point by point. I understand why people are upset. But as I have said, they mostly second-guess Topalov's motives, and seem to discount the very idea of a possible complaint in good faith. The arbiters could hardly do that. And further as I've said, I'm not defending Topalov, merely the match procedures.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #621 - 10/06/06 at 00:57:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 10/06/06 at 00:31:39: TopNotch wrote on 10/06/06 at 00:15:53: I guess this means that neither woofwoof nor Markovich will be purchasing a copy of 'd pawn deviations' anytime soon, or maybe its already too late. Tops I know that responding to this makes me sound self-important, but it's necessary anyway. Your remark is nonsense, of course. I have no personal dislike for John Cox. How could I? I barely know him. I've said that in my view, some of his recent remarks go a bit too far, but I've done my best, I hope, to characterize his remarks and not him personally. Startout Out: Alekhine's Defence was a useful and interesting book, why wouldn't this one be? Even if I thought of him as some here do of Topalov, I would still buy his book. The thing is Markovich, you rarely if ever directly address any of Cox's points as it relates to the match, you simply avoid them. He did however address yours and quite emphatically I might add. I cannot speak for Mr. Cox but one of the reasons why I am so upset by the happenings in Elista is as a tournament player myself who has represented his country I would hate to think that someone could get away with what Topalov and his team apparently did. The effect on ones psyche under such circumstances cannot be fully appreciated and grasped by a lay person, I suspect that that is why so many GM's have come out in support of Kramnik and expressed awe and admiration that he could continue in such circumstances. Your nonchalance regarding both players the match and the unfortuante circumstances surrounded it are duly noted, but do not get annoyed by those of us who show a modicum concern and empathy. Toppy
	« Last Edit: 10/06/06 at 10:59:31 by TopNotch »
	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #620 - 10/06/06 at 00:42:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Blah, blah, blah. Anyway, about the games... I haven't been watching the games live, but as far as I can tell, Kramnik has been playing into Topalov's preparation in the opening far more frequently than the other way around. I wonder if this was the case today, or if Kramnik simply prepared a disaster for himself (as in the Marshall Gambit game with Leko last year). Still plenty of time for both players. I wonder if the dynamics of the match will change at all -- certainly Kramnik will stick to his game plan tomorrow and try for another draw with Black, but after that I have to think that winning the match before tiebreaks means more to him than Topalov. Still a good game (and certainly a good result) for Topalov, who must be flying high after his troubles with the white pieces.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #619 - 10/06/06 at 00:31:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 10/06/06 at 00:15:53: I guess this means that neither woofwoof nor Markovich will be purchasing a copy of 'd pawn deviations' anytime soon, or maybe its already too late. Tops I know that responding to this makes me sound self-important, but it's necessary anyway. Your remark is nonsense, of course. I have no personal dislike for John Cox. How could I? I barely know him. I've said that in my view, some of his recent remarks go a bit too far, but I've done my best, I hope, to characterize his remarks and not him personally. Starting Out: Alekhine's Defence was a useful and interesting book, why wouldn't this one be? Even if I thought of him as some here do of Topalov, I would still buy his book.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #618 - 10/06/06 at 00:16:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: RE: "May I suggest that the "toilet" thread is the appropriate place for such remarks as this?" You certainly may suggest it, etc., etc., etc. I rather think that my principal fault in your eyes, dear fellow-American, is that I'm not an admirer of Kramnik, nor do I cherish a deep contempt for Topalov. Those are the north and south poles of your customary argumentation here. I couldn't even say that I didn't think Kramnik's play had been very good, an objective question, without causing you to vent further about the Evil One. Also, it's not only I who sometimes says that certain remarks belong on other threads, or are impermissible in general. I do maintain my view that simply to post a message saying "How can anyone want this S.O.B. to win, given that he rapes little girls, eats the eyeballs of grandmothers, and so forth, and so on," is more germaine to the Great Bathroom Controversy than to match commentary, which is what I thought this thread was for. If you don't think that it's beyond the bounds of respectful discourse to say to someone "With respect, you are a fool," well, I disagree.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #617 - 10/06/06 at 00:15:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	I guess this means that neither woofwoof nor Markovich will be purchasing a copy of 'd pawn deviations' anytime soon, or maybe its already too late. Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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GMTonyKosten YaBB Administrator Offline Mr Dynamic? Posts: 3199 Location: Clermont-Ferrand Joined: 12/19/02 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #616 - 10/05/06 at 23:39:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/05/06 at 20:54:55: woofwoof, with respect, you're a fool. Doesn't seem to be too much 'respect' there! John, even the management team have to abide by the Registration Agreeement!


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #615 - 10/05/06 at 23:04:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: RE: "I don't think Kramnik has been playing all that well" That's odd...I remember Kramnik being +1 when you consider the games actually played and has a better elo performance thus far. I also remember he just drew 3 black in a row with the #1 player in the world. That seems like pretty good chess to me. RE: "I was prepared to believe that Kramnik was the better match player, but now I have my doubts." As I just mentioned Kramnik is still +1 over the board. Also, Kramnik didn't use any ridiculous match tactics. So, he has the better results OTB and hasn't acted like a child. I fail to see why those two things wouldn't indicate Kramnik as both the better player (elo) and the better man. RE: "Am I right that Topalov is White next? That will be tough on Mr. K." Yes, you are absolutely right . Unlike Topalov, Kramnik will not have a string of 3 whites in a row. And yes, it will be tough, of course, but considering Topalov has been unable to win as white thus far and Kramnik will not be pushing for the full point as black...I forsee a fairly safe, solid draw. RE: "If Kramnik wins the next decisive game, I will be very impressed." Well, then pay attention to game 12 and be prepared to be impressed. As someone mentioned eariler, Kramnik won the last game of his match against Leko when he needed a win against one of the best defensive players in the world (in fact, Kramnik said that he thought Leko was clearly the best defender in chess; although I suppose Kramnik cannot play Kramnik). Topalov is a master of attack and maybe the best player in the world with a strong initiative...but he has never been considered a top defender (although he is certainly very good at all aspects of the game). But considering how little he's gotten with his whites and with Kramnik playing for the win in the last game it should be very exciting. At least no one can say this match hasn't been interesting! Quote: RE: "May I suggest that the "toilet" thread is the appropriate place for such remarks as this?" You certainly may suggest it, but since the post was about the Kramnik-Topalov match (and from the official match site as well) I don't see why it would be out of place in a Kramnik-Topalov match thread. RE: "I thought this thread was now supposed to be for game and match commentary" This match involves quite a lot thanks to Danailov and its obviously affected both players. The behavior of the players is very much a part of a match. Why shouldn't we discuss this? Its not like we're discussing flavors of ice cream; we are commenting on the match. Why do you think that you alone get to decide what counts as 'match commentary'? RE: "Ah, to see some amateur's chess understanding denigrated by an IM on a public message board! It just makes me want to come back here again and again." Again...why do you think you get to decide how people write? As you said, it is a public message board, not your personal space. Woofwoof talks about 'Drawnik' and yet seems to criticizes Kramnik for losing when he was pressing for a win. This has irritated John (and myself) and so he responds. I, personally, would have said that its apparently perfectly fine for Topalov to draw all his games in the second half of San Luis because he had an insurmountable lead, but its cowardice for Kramnik. But if John wants to say that it makes him look foolish, then why can't he say so? Why does John's commenting on another poster have anything to do with you? Does that "management team" mean that he isn't entitled to his opinions anymore? You suddenly get to control what he writes because of that? Really? As an aside: You started ranting about ChessPublishing putting an "Americans not wanted" screen up or something like that. And while I agree with you that John is probably wrong in his assessment, its certainly open to discussion. Maybe Americans are more prone to this stuff? I really couldn't tell you because I don't have hard evidence either way. Who knows? Who really cares? But people call him arrogant and he calls some people fools. That sounds exactly like a public message board to me! I don't think any of this is some bizarre "anti-American" policy at all (and yes, I am an American) and I cannot imagine you believe it is either. Your response was way over-the-top. Frankly, your over-sensitivity and need to control would only serve as fuel for anti-Americanism. Just relax. I really think you've gone a bit loopy lately; you're normally not like that. IMJohnCox has a lot of great comments and has been quite good about responding to questions about his books and what not. But besides being an IM, he's also a person who has opinions. If you think he has to live in a little box because you don't like him expressing himself, then you're delusional. It is a public forum. If all this really bothers you so much that you don't want to read the boards...well, don't read them. I think you're getting a little too upset about this stuff. Here here !! Topertz

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #614 - 10/05/06 at 22:47:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: From the official site: Today there were two separate press conferences instead of a joint one. When Kramnik was already sitting in the press conference hall, Topalov suddenly refused leaving the stage: «I will not go; I'll give a separate press conference!» Vladimir sighed with relief and said: «Okay, this is even easier for me», and spent half of the twenty prescribed minutes in lively chatter. Seriously...why would anyone want Topalov to win the match at this point? I've been a fan of his games since the late 90s and I appauded his amazing win at San Luis; but he's being an idiot. Lets face it. He claims Kramnik isn't even worthy of a match, then accuses him of cheating, won't shake his hand, he has to give his own seperate press conference but won't answer questions about his teams tactics, and....ah forget it. Anyone who still longs to have Topalov as the champion won't be convinced by any reasons at this point. Nietzsche ps - Just imagine how great chess is going to be with Danailov calling the shots. I just got in from work and caught this post. Very well said Nietzsche, you really hit the nail squarely on the head. Before this match I was rooting for Topalov to win, but he has really disappointed me badly, and most chess fans around the World. Should Topalov go on to retain the title of World Champion, his legacy would be some what like that of Fischer's.....respected for his chess but despised for his character or lack there of. But as I said before at least Fischer had the excuse that he was nuts, what's Topalov's excuse? It is conceivable that Topalov is equal to or maybe even a bit stronger than Kramnik is currently, but after the sabotage of game 5, the World will never really know for sure. Moreover without the under-handed tactics employed in game 5, I'm fairly certain Kramnik would have shut out Topalov fairly easily, hence the need for extra ordinary measures. Ironically only a chessplayer could be myopic enough to judge this contest only in the context of moves made over the board. After all that Kramnik has been put through, not to mention the three black's in a row and Danailov's latest insult re Fritz9 just before the start of game 8 is beyond words. As for those who think we should just enjoy the chess and ignore the rest, I would say that sometimes there are more important issues to consider than ones own enjoyment and pleasure. Someone asked how aware Topalov is of his manager's actions. I would think well aware, since his manager is acting on his behalf and it is clear by Danailov's continued attacks that Topalov is not only aware but approves. What kind of message is this match sending to young impressionable players - that winning by any means neccessary is acceptable? Yes Topalov won a nice game today, and under different circumstances I would have been proud of it, but for me the end does not justify the means. It would be nice for a change if the World did not have to settle for an amoral champion. Topertz

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #613 - 10/05/06 at 21:52:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	RE: "May I suggest that the "toilet" thread is the appropriate place for such remarks as this?" You certainly may suggest it, but since the post was about the Kramnik-Topalov match (and from the official match site as well) I don't see why it would be out of place in a Kramnik-Topalov match thread. RE: "I thought this thread was now supposed to be for game and match commentary" This match involves quite a lot thanks to Danailov and its obviously affected both players. The behavior of the players is very much a part of a match. Why shouldn't we discuss this? Its not like we're discussing flavors of ice cream; we are commenting on the match. Why do you think that you alone get to decide what counts as 'match commentary'? RE: "Ah, to see some amateur's chess understanding denigrated by an IM on a public message board! It just makes me want to come back here again and again." Again...why do you think you get to decide how people write? As you said, it is a public message board, not your personal space. Woofwoof talks about 'Drawnik' and yet seems to criticizes Kramnik for losing when he was pressing for a win. This has irritated John (and myself) and so he responds. I, personally, would have said that its apparently perfectly fine for Topalov to draw all his games in the second half of San Luis because he had an insurmountable lead, but its cowardice for Kramnik. But if John wants to say that it makes him look foolish, then why can't he say so? Why does John's commenting on another poster have anything to do with you? Does that "management team" mean that he isn't entitled to his opinions anymore? You suddenly get to control what he writes because of that? Really? As an aside: You started ranting about ChessPublishing putting an "Americans not wanted" screen up or something like that. And while I agree with you that John is probably wrong in his assessment, its certainly open to discussion. Maybe Americans are more prone to this stuff? I really couldn't tell you because I don't have hard evidence either way. Who knows? Who really cares? But people call him arrogant and he calls some people fools. That sounds exactly like a public message board to me! I don't think any of this is some bizarre "anti-American" policy at all (and yes, I am an American) and I cannot imagine you believe it is either. Your response was way over-the-top. Frankly, your over-sensitivity and need to control would only serve as fuel for anti-Americanism. Just relax. I really think you've gone a bit loopy lately; you're normally not like that. IMJohnCox has a lot of great comments and has been quite good about responding to questions about his books and what not. But besides being an IM, he's also a person who has opinions. If you think he has to live in a little box because you don't like him expressing himself, then you're delusional. It is a public forum. If all this really bothers you so much that you don't want to read the boards...well, don't read them. I think you're getting a little too upset about this stuff.

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #612 - 10/05/06 at 21:03:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/05/06 at 20:54:55: woofwoof, with respect, you're a fool. Look, get some balance, John. This remark is too much. So was that crap about Americans on the other thread. IMJohnCox wrote on 10/05/06 at 20:54:55: Kramnik lost today's game by overpressing, and if he played solid openings with his three consecutive blacks and his 2-0 lead, so what? All this 'Drawnik' stuff on your part tells us is that you know nothing about the game. Ah, to see some amateur's chess understanding denegrated by an IM on a public message board! It just makes me want to come back here again and again.
	« Last Edit: 10/05/06 at 23:59:19 by Markovich »
	The Great Oz has spoken!
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #611 - 10/05/06 at 20:54:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	woofwoof, with respect, you're a fool. Kramnik lost today's game by overpressing, and if he played solid openings with his three consecutive blacks and his 2-0 lead, so what? All this 'Drawnik' stuff on your part tells us is that you know nothing about the game.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #610 - 10/05/06 at 20:48:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: From the official site: Today there were two separate press conferences instead of a joint one. When Kramnik was already sitting in the press conference hall, Topalov suddenly refused leaving the stage: «I will not go; I'll give a separate press conference!» Vladimir sighed with relief and said: «Okay, this is even easier for me», and spent half of the twenty prescribed minutes in lively chatter. Seriously...why would anyone want Topalov to win the match at this point? I've been a fan of his games since the late 90s and I appauded his amazing win at San Luis; but he's being an idiot. Lets face it. He claims Kramnik isn't even worthy of a match, then accuses him of cheating, won't shake his hand, he has to give his own seperate press conference but won't answer questions about his teams tactics, and....ah forget it. Anyone who still longs to have Topalov as the champion won't be convinced by any reasons at this point. Nietzsche ps - Just imagine how great chess is going to be with Danailov calling the shots. May I suggest that the "toilet" thread is the appropriate place for such remarks as this?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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StuntLinguist YaBB Newbies Offline Pronouncer of strange and difficult words. Posts: 42 Location: columbia Joined: 10/09/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #609 - 10/05/06 at 20:13:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/05/06 at 15:54:18: Plainly this is a travesty! I don't care if Topalov goes +2 or better in the last 4 games; he will never deserve to be World Champion after the crap he pulled earlier in the match. Laugh, we might as well erase half the previous world champions from the record books right now! Fischer, Alekhine and Kasparov would have to be disqualified. Fischer for obvious reasons, kasparov for breaking the chess world in half and Alekhine for his flat refusal to play Capa and his (probably coerced) anti-semitic remarks. The chess world is chock full of outrageous behavior, addictions, etc. I loved today's game. I have been rooting for Kramnik, but I'm happy to see an interesting game with great ideas and excellent technique regardless of who wins. Let's just enjoy the chess, what do you say? SL


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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #608 - 10/05/06 at 20:09:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	From the official site: Today there were two separate press conferences instead of a joint one. When Kramnik was already sitting in the press conference hall, Topalov suddenly refused leaving the stage: «I will not go; I'll give a separate press conference!» Vladimir sighed with relief and said: «Okay, this is even easier for me», and spent half of the twenty prescribed minutes in lively chatter. Seriously...why would anyone want Topalov to win the match at this point? I've been a fan of his games since the late 90s and I appauded his amazing win at San Luis; but he's being an idiot. Lets face it. He claims Kramnik isn't even worthy of a match, then accuses him of cheating, won't shake his hand, he has to give his own seperate press conference but won't answer questions about his teams tactics, and....ah forget it. Anyone who still longs to have Topalov as the champion won't be convinced by any reasons at this point. Nietzsche ps - Just imagine how great chess is going to be with Danailov calling the shots.

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #607 - 10/05/06 at 19:55:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	RE: "I don't think Kramnik has been playing all that well" That's odd...I remember Kramnik being +1 when you consider the games actually played and has a better elo performance thus far. I also remember he just drew 3 black in a row with the #1 player in the world. That seems like pretty good chess to me. RE: "I was prepared to believe that Kramnik was the better match player, but now I have my doubts." As I just mentioned Kramnik is still +1 over the board. Also, Kramnik didn't use any ridiculous match tactics. So, he has the better results OTB and hasn't acted like a child. I fail to see why those two things wouldn't indicate Kramnik as both the better player (elo) and the better man. RE: "Am I right that Topalov is White next? That will be tough on Mr. K." Yes, you are absolutely right . Unlike Topalov, Kramnik will not have a string of 3 whites in a row. And yes, it will be tough, of course, but considering Topalov has been unable to win as white thus far and Kramnik will not be pushing for the full point as black...I forsee a fairly safe, solid draw. RE: "If Kramnik wins the next decisive game, I will be very impressed." Well, then pay attention to game 12 and be prepared to be impressed. As someone mentioned eariler, Kramnik won the last game of his match against Leko when he needed a win against one of the best defensive players in the world (in fact, Kramnik said that he thought Leko was clearly the best defender in chess; although I suppose Kramnik cannot play Kramnik). Topalov is a master of attack and maybe the best player in the world with a strong initiative...but he has never been considered a top defender (although he is certainly very good at all aspects of the game). But considering how little he's gotten with his whites and with Kramnik playing for the win in the last game it should be very exciting. At least no one can say this match hasn't been interesting!

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #606 - 10/05/06 at 18:39:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/05/06 at 16:30:38: Is there a rest day now? I think Kramnik could do with it...the next 4 games should be fascinating - really looking forward to it. I think there are still plenty of twists and turns left in this match...but Kramniks reaction to defeat is going to be critical I don't think Kramnik has been playing all that well. We saw his best play in the game before today's, am I wrong? Even there he was not doing all that well. The outcome of a chessgame is always deserving, but in his wins Kramnik was not really that persuasive, I opine. I think in light of their results leading up to the match, most people would agreee that Topalov is probably the better player tournament player. I was prepared to believe that Kramnik was the better match player, but now I have my doubts. If Kramnik wins the next decisive game, I will be very impressed. If Topalov does, it will be business as usual. Am I right that Topalov is White next? That will be tough on Mr. K.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #605 - 10/05/06 at 18:34:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 10/05/06 at 16:11:32: Please move along to the toilet-thread! OstapBender wrote on 10/05/06 at 16:12:19: Why Markovich, how obtuse! Is it deliberate? I'm sorry, but it seems that I don't have to go to the toilet-thread to see offtopic remarks about Topalov and how terribly sad for world chess it is that he won a game, do I? I thought this thread was now supposed to be for game and match commentary. So it would seem fair to ask castlerock, OstapBender, IMJohnCox and others who want to wring their hands over what a nasty boy Topalov is to do it in the toilet thread, not here. Or perhaps there should be a "How Veselin Topalov ruined my life" thread.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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woofwoof God Member Offline chess is like life Posts: 929 Location: Singapore Joined: 07/04/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #604 - 10/05/06 at 16:47:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think this really calls for a celebration indeed! Now ..... the chances are good that we will see some good fighting games from now on as both players will now come out & play for wins! Lets face it..... after Drawnik was 2-0 up he wasnt doing much else but playing for draws & forcing exchanges & hoping to catch some televised footie asap! Now begins the make or break part of the match & for both players. Neither do i want to get embroiled in all this Topa-Krammo controversies abt who's right, whos wrong & what nots. We can argue till the cows come home & nothing will change over there. The perspective which I speak in the above paragraph is only on chessic terms only. May the best player win!

	"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #603 - 10/05/06 at 16:30:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Is there a rest day now? I think Kramnik could do with it...the next 4 games should be fascinating - really looking forward to it. I think there are still plenty of twists and turns left in this match...but Kramniks reaction to defeat is going to be critical


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #602 - 10/05/06 at 16:16:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 10/05/06 at 16:00:26: I second that OstapBender. I would hate to see Topalov win this match. He is not worthy as a sportsman. The whole thing has made me embarassed to be a chessplayer. All other things aside, Black played a nice game today. I wonder if it was correct to go into that ending with 2 rooks+pawn vs. 2 knights. Indeed, Topalov played a great game. Kramnik was outplayed and lost deservingly. As I said earlier, had the circumstances been different I would have found it to be a thoroughly enjoyable game.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #601 - 10/05/06 at 16:12:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Why Markovich, how obtuse! Is it deliberate?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #600 - 10/05/06 at 16:11:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Please move along to the toilet-thread!

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #599 - 10/05/06 at 16:08:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/05/06 at 15:54:18: Plainly this is a travesty! I don't care if Topalov goes +2 or better in the last 4 games; he will never deserve to be World Champion after the crap he pulled earlier in the match. The only thing that made the end of this match tolerable was the apparent likelihood that Topalov would not be able to win a game (not legitimately, anyway). Had Topalov come back from his -2 deficit through his over the board prowess, it's be a different story of course. As it is, he has permanently tarnished his reputation. Unless Kramnik wins, the World Championship situation will be even worse than it was before this reunification match. Congratulations FIDE! I can assure you that if Topalov finishes +2 or better, Kramnik's case will never be heard in court. However, I don't expect that Topalov will press very hard to make +2 happen, once (hypothetically) he is +1. Why gamble, given that Kramnik's chances in court are slight (so I opine, at any rate)? Indeed, I suspect that the chances of Kramnik's case being heard at all are rather slight, irrespective of Topalov's hypothetical margin of victory.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #598 - 10/05/06 at 16:03:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 10/05/06 at 15:26:22: What a sad day for chess! Why, because someone you don't like won a game of chess?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #597 - 10/05/06 at 16:03:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	I wouldnt go that far, obviously the whole thing is distasteful - and Danailov should be investigated by FIDE ethics commission (if there is one ) His latest press release about Fritz is arguably more damaging than the earlier official appeal. However I still admire Topalov as a chess player, and IF he wins the match (which is a big if) I believe he is a worthy World Champion. I think we have to concentrate on the chess, which admittedly is difficult with Danailov spouting away in the background. Incidentally I believe somehow the Danailov tactics may be getting to Kramnik as if you look at the pictures today in the official site Kramnik looks worn down and dishevelled for todays game, whereas Topalov looks completely focussed as always. I dont know if this is possible but for team Kramnik they should try and isolate their man from all these goings on and let him concentrate only on the chess, I would even withdraw him from the press conferences if that is possible.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #596 - 10/05/06 at 16:00:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	I second that OstapBender. I would hate to see Topalov win this match. He is not worthy as a sportsman. The whole thing has made me embarassed to be a chessplayer. All other things aside, Black played a nice game today. I wonder if it was correct to go into that ending with 2 rooks+pawn vs. 2 knights.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #595 - 10/05/06 at 15:54:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Plainly this is a travesty! I don't care if Topalov goes +2 or better in the last 4 games; he will never deserve to be World Champion after the crap he pulled earlier in the match. The only thing that made the end of this match tolerable was the apparent likelihood that Topalov would not be able to win a game (not legitimately, anyway). Had Topalov come back from his -2 deficit through his over the board prowess, it's be a different story of course. As it is, he has permanently tarnished his reputation. Unless Kramnik wins, the World Championship situation will be even worse than it was before this reunification match. Congratulations FIDE!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #594 - 10/05/06 at 15:47:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	What about the opening in todays game? Something obviously went badly wrong in Kramniks prep surely? He cant have deliberately gone in for that sequence...


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #593 - 10/05/06 at 15:35:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	4 games left, 2 Whites and 2 Blacks eache, so theoretically it is anybodys match, and Kramnik proved against Leko that he can come back from -1 even as late as the last game. But...Topalov has momentum now and confidence, and these are 2 dangerous things once he gets them - also traditionally he is a strong finisher...


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #592 - 10/05/06 at 15:32:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Oh dear. How depressing. I very much fear this is the end. Of course the match is still level but it will take an incredible effort by Kramnik now. Impossible even to think of this toerag as World Champion.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #591 - 10/05/06 at 15:28:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik better resign before he gets mated Edit --OK, finally...


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #590 - 10/05/06 at 15:26:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	What a sad day for chess!

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #589 - 10/05/06 at 15:23:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	The next game should be interesting, I suspect Topalov will go all out to win again with White now that he has some momentum - important for Kramnik to steady the ship by drawing the next game.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #588 - 10/05/06 at 15:16:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/05/06 at 15:14:53: I think White is lost here. After 40...Nd5 there must have been something better that 41.Kxg3, but I wonder if White could've saved it anyway. Indeed, this will be a tough loss for Kramnik to bounce back from... I personally think the mistake was much earlier, after Black unravels with ...Kd6 it looks undefendable in practical terms


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #587 - 10/05/06 at 15:15:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	well ...Rg8 has come now so we transpose to the other line, surely time for Kramnik to call it a day now


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #586 - 10/05/06 at 15:14:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think White is lost here. After 40...Nd5 there must have been something better that 41.Kxg3, but I wonder if White could've saved it anyway. Indeed, this will be a tough loss for Kramnik to bounce back from...

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #585 - 10/05/06 at 15:13:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes I am a Topalov fan and I must object in strongest terms to the behaviour of Danailov in this match. Nevertheless in chess terms Topalov is a fighter and even with the 2 point gap I had not given up on him unlike others.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #584 - 10/05/06 at 15:12:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	This looks a little better version for White than the engine line I gave above since if ...Ne4+ and so on White can drive the king back with Ra6+ in the course of taking on a5. It still looks very bad to me, though.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #583 - 10/05/06 at 15:10:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Left for a few minutes and on returning it looks like Kramnik will lose this one. Great game by Topalov! Too bad about the game 5 BS and his POS manager or I might have even enjoyed this game.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #582 - 10/05/06 at 15:10:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well my little sister could win this now so I wouldnt be surprised if Kramnik resigned, he is proabably just preparing himself for the press conference now. Great result by Topalov to finally get a win with Black.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #581 - 10/05/06 at 15:08:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, it would be a terrible blow and make Topalov the favourite again. It will just be unbearable if he wins. I might have to give up chess again.... Terribly hard for Kramnik especially since psychologically he must have been thinking 'well, OK, they've cheated me but I'm still a point ahead and stand to win'. Now it's 'well, they've cheated me and I should be ahead but I'm not'. So much harder.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #580 - 10/05/06 at 15:04:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	I dont see anything to hold. White seems to miss a tempo or two in all 7th rank variations and Rb5 just looks devastating.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #579 - 10/05/06 at 15:03:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	This is going to be a painful defeat for Kramnik to take having had the White pieces. It will be interesting to see how he reacts, set for an interesting finish as Toppy usually gets stronger with a bit of momentum...


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #578 - 10/05/06 at 14:58:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Presumably Rc1 was a big mistake, allowing ...Kd6 to come.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #577 - 10/05/06 at 14:55:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	And if Rg7, then presumably ...Rb8 is a trivial win also, it looks like its a simple win now


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #576 - 10/05/06 at 14:53:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	.Kxg3,Nc5 42.Rb5,Ne4+ 43.Kf3,Rg8 44.Rxa5,Rg3+ 45.Ke2,Rxe3+ 46.Kf1,Rxb3 (-+) is what they're saying, apparently. 41 Rb5 was forced, I hear. That line does look pretty grim, too. Striking the power of the rook and knights in combination. Maybe Topalov was right to keep that rook back around ...Rc8/...Ra8. Normally of course you do want to keep one rook in these positions with minor piece/pieces against a rook.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #575 - 10/05/06 at 14:51:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/05/06 at 14:50:10: What about ...Nc5 -e4+ followed by ..Rg8 That looks devastating at first sight. The first winning pawn sac of Topalov this match?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #574 - 10/05/06 at 14:51:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/05/06 at 14:47:56: Yikes - the engines apparently go mad when 41 Kxg3 is played. Seems like they think Kramnik’s lost all of a sudden. Yes. Perhaps your machine, like mine, doesn't have a table base?

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #573 - 10/05/06 at 14:51:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	He´s played it - what do the engines say? Looks like curtains to me...


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #572 - 10/05/06 at 14:50:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	What about ...Nc5 -e4+ followed by ..Rg8


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #571 - 10/05/06 at 14:48:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	There must be an attack coming with the Knights, in fairness though I cant see how White can defend this position in practical terms


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #570 - 10/05/06 at 14:48:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hmm which pawn will go f3 or maybe b3 (after Nc5)

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #569 - 10/05/06 at 14:47:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yikes - the engines apparently go mad when 41 Kxg3 is played. Seems like they think Kramnik’s lost all of a sudden.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #568 - 10/05/06 at 14:46:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	41.Kxg3 played. This looks sensible trying to elimate as many pawns as possible


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #567 - 10/05/06 at 14:45:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie - taking on g3 I cannot calculate an immediate win, but some combination of ...e3 followed by ...e5 or ...Rg8+ first looks very dangerous, I imagine it should be winning


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #566 - 10/05/06 at 14:39:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie I dont think e4 is possible - ...Nc5+ comes Edit , sorry you got there before me As I said before, this looks great for Black to me - can somebody suggest moves for White?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #565 - 10/05/06 at 14:38:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Doesn't 41.e4 drop a pawn (due to knight fork ...Nc5)? Sorry - missed your last post - I see you had a different idea for 41.e4.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #564 - 10/05/06 at 14:38:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/05/06 at 14:34:13: Topalov's knights are finding good squares. I think he has developed an initiative. I'm worried that White is in trouble, perhaps one second-best move away from losing. I agree that is why I think 41 e4 fxe4 42 Kxg3 may be his best option (I am not sure if it is a good option mind you) as otherwise the board will get swarming with black knights monty python style.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #563 - 10/05/06 at 14:37:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well for me it is a nightmare to defend for White - he has to watch out for all kinds of things, including ...e5. The Rook + 2 knights can suddenly switch to attack, I think if Kramnik holds this he deserves to win the match, but it just might not be possible. But.. I could be wrong!


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #562 - 10/05/06 at 14:35:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/05/06 at 14:32:53: Willempie wrote on 10/05/06 at 14:31:16: 41 f4 looks like a very good resource for white 39.f4 already played. 41 e4 of course

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #561 - 10/05/06 at 14:34:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topalov's knights are finding good squares. I think he has developed an initiative. I'm worried that White is in trouble, perhaps one second-best move away from losing.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #560 - 10/05/06 at 14:32:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 10/05/06 at 14:31:16: 41 f4 looks like a very good resource for white 39.f4 already played.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #559 - 10/05/06 at 14:32:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ok I´m not going to sit on the fence - I believe this is close to winning for Black now. Last few moves Toppy has consolidated.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #558 - 10/05/06 at 14:31:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Pfft I am happy I am not playing with either colour as I am bound to screw this up. 41 f4 looks like a very good resource for white

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #557 - 10/05/06 at 14:29:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Polgar seems to like Black and reports GMs changing that way on the servers as well....still not so sure; Black's going to have give either ...g3 or ...a5, I think. Word seems to be that 15...Qa5 was the novelty although 14 Qd4 has been played only rarely. If 15 Qxa7 simply ....Bd6 gives Black good compensation (or so they are saying). Looking forward to being at home and watching this properly on ICC - my, we do get spoiled these days...


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #556 - 10/05/06 at 14:28:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	After 39...Kd6 Quote: All of a sudden, many observers started to shift their opinion to liking Black better. As I said earlier, Black has chances to win and it is the side you would want to have if you need to go for the win. This kind of endgames is hard to evaluate, even for GMs http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #555 - 10/05/06 at 14:26:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe Rc1 was a mistake by Kramnik? If I´m White I´m worried now, but what do I know


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #554 - 10/05/06 at 14:25:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Now we see he wanted the King on d6, he is threatening tu unravel


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #553 - 10/05/06 at 14:24:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Why ...Nef6 instead of ...Nd6? I think 39...Kd6 answered my question.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #552 - 10/05/06 at 14:23:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	39 .. Rh8 now or is that Willempie style overoptimistic?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #551 - 10/05/06 at 14:21:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik's rooks are active, I guess. Not an easy position to assess. I like Black but think White will hold without great difficulty.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #550 - 10/05/06 at 14:20:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/05/06 at 14:19:20: Well if you are playing to win I suppose it has to be this way, I still like Black, amazed there are GM´s who will take White here I think that due to the match "developments" it is hard to be objective.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #549 - 10/05/06 at 14:20:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, he's pressed OK. Now we need the over- bit.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #548 - 10/05/06 at 14:19:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well if you are playing to win I suppose it has to be this way, I still like Black, amazed there are GM´s who will take White here


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #547 - 10/05/06 at 14:18:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Good call, Keano!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #546 - 10/05/06 at 14:17:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	In for a penny, in for a pint g3 it is

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #545 - 10/05/06 at 14:16:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	hes still thinking maybe ..g3 is not outlandish


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #544 - 10/05/06 at 14:14:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	f3 - steady trading; makes sense, the fewer pawns the better the rooks, whether trying to draw or win.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #543 - 10/05/06 at 14:14:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	37.f3, now ...g3 is too slow presumably after f4 and Kf3


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #542 - 10/05/06 at 14:13:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, probably very hopeful! Is Topalov teeing up a repetition? ....Nd6; Rbc7 Ne8 and so on? Or would White go on then with Rc8 - I bet he wouldn't, whatever Avrukh and Karjakin say. Even if they're right.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #541 - 10/05/06 at 14:12:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	I like that plan of co-ordinating the Knights - they were getting in each others way earlier


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #540 - 10/05/06 at 14:11:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	I hate endgames with knights. You always need to check everything threefold and even then I will overlook some tactics.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #539 - 10/05/06 at 14:11:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ah, Ostap, good to see we're not the only ones with no idea! Maybe they're both just playing?! I'm sure Topalov would not accept a draw in the match situation, whoever is better. These tough endgame struggles where both are just playing take me back to Karpov-Korchnoi 1974, which was largely decided in a series of grim struggles like this.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #538 - 10/05/06 at 14:10:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/05/06 at 14:08:40: Any chance of another Topalov self-destruct/overpress, I wonder? Particularly easy to do with this material balance. A hopeful comment?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #537 - 10/05/06 at 14:10:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	I like that - ...Nd6 coming


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #536 - 10/05/06 at 14:08:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	36...g3 looked interesting, but 36...Ne8 played.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #535 - 10/05/06 at 14:08:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	No - backwards with ...Ne8


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #534 - 10/05/06 at 14:08:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Settling down for a long old struggle. With Black's two pawn weaknesses though it looks a Herculean task to me to make any progress. Any chance of another Topalov self-destruct/overpress, I wonder? Particularly easy to do with this material balance.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #533 - 10/05/06 at 14:06:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	is ...g3 possible now?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #532 - 10/05/06 at 14:05:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	from http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/ Quote: The big debate on all servers is which side is better. GM Boris Avrukh said: "Zagrebelnyi is commenting on 64.ru writes: I am sure he is Topalov is playing for a win here , I think he is wrong, I would prefer White here." Karjakin likes White. Radjabov likes Black. John Fedorowicz likes White, I like Black...and the debate continues...

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #531 - 10/05/06 at 14:02:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	I still like this for Black - he has to switch to the kingside with ...Rh8 at some point


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #530 - 10/05/06 at 14:00:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yeah but now he cant move the rooks or the knight, with the rook exchange he could have used a knight.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #529 - 10/05/06 at 13:59:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	Exchanging rooks (after ...Rc8) might still be drawish.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #528 - 10/05/06 at 13:57:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Starting to look drawish, I still think he should have gone for Rc8 when I said so

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #527 - 10/05/06 at 13:48:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	well he played ..h6, pretty obvious I suppose -...g5,...g4 coming


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #526 - 10/05/06 at 13:46:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	It seems to me Black must play for a gradual push of his kinside pawns here to provoke some kind of weakness on the other side


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #525 - 10/05/06 at 13:40:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Castlerock; yes I did; in my experience Fritz9 overestimates the compensation for pawn sacrifices particularly (this is a common view, not just mine). But I think he'd generally be sweeter on two knights against a rook than humans; the troubles two knights sometimes have in a open position arising much later in the game with pawns on both wings are beyond his horizon. And to be fair Fritzy himself is a wizard at co-ordinating two minor pieces in endings; this is one of those tasks us poor humans lag way behind him in. So he maybe rates them for his own use, as it were. Anyway, I confess I'm growing quite optimistic of a hold. Those rooks are very active and unless Black can activate or trade his rook you wouldn't think he could play for a win really.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #524 - 10/05/06 at 13:39:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Wll, got to go and hoping for a draw!

	CastleRock
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #523 - 10/05/06 at 13:31:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 10/05/06 at 13:29:10: Well, now according to Fridz, 29.f3 was preferrable to avoid ...Nd5 and to get into rook pawn ending. Says 29..a5 makes black clearly better. Huh. Toppy's using your fritz

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #522 - 10/05/06 at 13:30:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/05/06 at 13:28:36: I'm feeling a bit more cheerful - specially if Fritz thinks Black's only a bit better; generally he'd quite like the material advantage, I think. Yesterday didn't you say fridz eveluates pawn sacs better? or have I misunderstood?

	CastleRock
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #521 - 10/05/06 at 13:30:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Bc7 would make the rook on b7 clamped in I think The endgame as it is looks won to me. I dont see how white is going to hold with or without a rook swap. Maybe he has got a chance if the queenside pawns are cleared.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #520 - 10/05/06 at 13:29:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, now according to Fridz, 29.f3 was preferrable to avoid ...Nd5 and to get into rook pawn ending. Says 29..a5 makes black clearly better. Huh.

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #519 - 10/05/06 at 13:28:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	No, rook to the c-file. Can Black exchange it? White keeps rooks on c7 and b7; how does Black progress? He can't move either knight and the a-pawn's loose. In fact I wonder how he defends the a-pawn at all after 29...Kd8 30 Rcc7. Maybe he's going to rule that out with 29....Nd5, but then 30 Rc6 comes, perhaps. I'm feeling a bit more cheerful - specially if Fritz thinks Black's only a bit better; generally he'd quite like the material advantage, I think.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #518 - 10/05/06 at 13:24:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Or was Rb7 making room for the bishop? 28 a4 a5 29 Bc7, for example. In fact what's Black's move after 28 Bc7 now?


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #517 - 10/05/06 at 13:23:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Black can always exchange the rook when it gets to c6 because of back rank. Fridz says slightly better for black. Nothing great. (I hope)

	CastleRock
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #516 - 10/05/06 at 13:16:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	So now I am smarter than both Fritz and Topalov

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #515 - 10/05/06 at 13:16:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Almost instantly Rb7 from Kramnik. Does he want to trade bishops and bring the other rook to c7 - does that set-up tie Black down to the extent he can't do anything? So what's Fritz's evaluation, castlerock?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #514 - 10/05/06 at 13:12:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	26...Rc8 looks good to me, but Toppy just played ...Ra8. Maybe he didn't like prospects of 2N vs R ending?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #513 - 10/05/06 at 13:11:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Fridz prefers the forced exchange with Rc8

	CastleRock
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #512 - 10/05/06 at 13:11:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Anything wrong with 26.. Bxd6 27 Rxd6 Ke7 28 something Ra8 followed by Kd8 and Rc8?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #511 - 10/05/06 at 13:06:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Wow, finally I get one right. Maybe Kramnik has some play here, or is 26...Ra8 just going to defend the a-pawn easily?


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #510 - 10/05/06 at 13:01:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	There is Rd1 for Kramnik no? Hell. I too started thinking like Topalov fans - trying to find some solace and activity in any position. Been a busy day, busier than Danailovs. Will get to my engine in 10 mins.

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #509 - 10/05/06 at 13:01:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe - 25 a4, how is Black defending his a-pawn? He needs a good manoeuvre here to consolidate just yet. 25...Bxd6 26 Rxd6 Ke7 27 Rc6 Rc8 28 Rxc8 Nxc8 29 Rc1 Kd8 does the trick, though. Maybe White's going Rad1 here? That might be a good move.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #508 - 10/05/06 at 12:53:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	24.. Be7 ouch. Looks like black will untangle rather quickly with this one as now the knight can move.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #507 - 10/05/06 at 12:49:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe it's not so bad - c6 is still weak and a rook there might be a bit annoying; if now 23...N5b6 24 Rc6 and maybe a4-a5 gives White some play; Ra6 would be quite annoying. And if 23...N7b6 can White get away with Rb8? I guess he must be able to or Kramnik would hardly have played Rc8.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #506 - 10/05/06 at 12:48:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Something must have gone wrong in Krammy's preparation

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #505 - 10/05/06 at 12:39:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Of course - 21...Nd5. Now if Bd6 the knight on d7 moves and the king comes to d7. White seems to have no play at all. The question is how much better Black is if the position stabilises; intuitively I'd have thought a lot. This might be a very depressing afternoon.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #504 - 10/05/06 at 12:39:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	21...Nd5 It would appear Black is better to me, a chance for Toppy?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #503 - 10/05/06 at 12:38:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	I must be missing something. After Nd5 and Nb6 by black where is white's compensation?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #502 - 10/05/06 at 12:37:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	OMG - Qxb4. That must be admitting White is much worse, no? 20...Qxb4 21 Bxb4 Nb6; what's White move? Maybe he has more play than appears at first sight - 22 a4 perhaps? Then if 22...Be7? 23 a5 Bxb4? 24 axb6 wins.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #501 - 10/05/06 at 12:36:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Need about 15 mins Jhon. Unavoidable work. Get back soon

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #500 - 10/05/06 at 12:36:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Now....not sure Black can manage to keep Queens on (which he´d like) so it looks like we´re heading for that ending either now or in a couple of moves


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #499 - 10/05/06 at 12:34:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Evidently not. I don't like this very much. Of course White can bale by taking on b4 but then I think Black can force queens off and he must be better. And otherwise - I'm not sure which way White goes. Where's Castlerock? He had a computer yesterday.... Ah there you are Castlerock. What's Fritzy say?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #498 - 10/05/06 at 12:31:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	well he took the rook in the end


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #497 - 10/05/06 at 12:30:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	He'making me feel nervous

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #496 - 10/05/06 at 12:28:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Agreed - I think the a3 idea could be distracting him, it looks a reasonable idea to me. Edit---- but of course it is a full piece sac then should Black move the rook - nevertheless looks interesting.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #495 - 10/05/06 at 12:27:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nah, if Nxd8 was forced he'd surely play it so as to analyse the right alternative after Black replies. Let's just hope he hasn't suddenly noticed some hidden reef. It's never a good sign when the player who's made a sacrifice starts thinking.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #494 - 10/05/06 at 12:21:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	I also presumed Nxe7 didnt work, he must be looking at the position after ...Bxd8


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #493 - 10/05/06 at 12:19:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	gone to the toilet? Just kidding...


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #492 - 10/05/06 at 12:18:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik's not moving - is he thinking of 19 Nxe7?? I thought 19...Kxe7 20 Bxb4+ Ke8 21 Qd6 Nd5 was a complete defence: isn't it that simple? Maybe he's just taking a leak.... Or is some quiet move an option - 19 b3 or a3?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #491 - 10/05/06 at 12:16:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Toppy's taken the bait at last. Now lets see what happens.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #490 - 10/05/06 at 12:16:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yeah, Wells-Habu; Pete got splattered. But I think he was better at one moment - rather typical for his games in this line, actually. Wells-Galkin, Port Erin 2005, followed a similar pattern. Wonder if this game will have any impact on the Drawnik nonsense - a point up with five to play in a WC match and the guy makes an intuitive sacrifice like this in a position it looks like Black has analysed. Topalov must be happy with a sharp game, at least.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #489 - 10/05/06 at 12:13:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	So that's what he's going to do - 16...Be7; of course, White had no threat. Kramnik renews the offer of two pieces for rook with 17 Rfc1, but now of course the king doesn't have to move. But if 17..Bxc6 18 Nxc6 Qxa4 19 Nxd8 Bxd8 b4 hangs, of course. It's all been so natural it's hard to believe this isn't theory and/or preparation. But who's caught whom?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #488 - 10/05/06 at 12:12:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	17. Rfc1 - what is happening? Positions like this is why I dont play the Meran - I like to castle early


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #487 - 10/05/06 at 12:08:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes i think i remember a Wells-Habu game in NIC yearbook. which went something like 9... Bd6 10. e4!? Nxe4 11. Qc2 f5 12. Ng5!? Nxg5 13. Qxc6 (forking both Ra8 and Bd6- now that knight is decoyed from e4). complicated stuff. 16. Bc6 Be7!? is a surprise.. but maybe Topalov has calculated everything..


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #486 - 10/05/06 at 11:57:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Peter Wells was very keen on 8 Be2 for a while; it's definitely had a slight burst of fashion. It looks though Black still has some difficulties in the present position - getting castled, basically. Oh my - Bc6! So 16...Bxc6 17 Nxc6 Qxa4 18 Nxd8 Kxd8 wins material for Black but I guess must be awkward for him with a3 coming. And if Black doesn't do that what does he do - 16...Qc7 is impossible because of 17 Qxa7 I think - if 16...Ba6 17 Bxd7 and then Nc6 maybe? Kramnik must be out of his prep by the times. And maybe Topalov isn't - still playing quickly. Very sharp position too. Kramnik's played very courageously this whole match, and maybe again today. I do hope he hasn't had one of these quixotic intuitive turns like he did against Deep Fritz. Anyone got an engine handy?


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #485 - 10/05/06 at 11:46:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello, abit late to this, 8. Be2 is rare so has reasonable surprise value. i guess the idea is to annoy Black by discouraging c5, and exploit the slight looseness in Black's position if he goes c5 anyway. For example 8... b4 (Topalov's 8... Bb7 move order allows four queens line with 9. e4 b4 10. e5 bc3 11. ef6 etc which Kramnik understandably declines) 9. Na4 Bb7 10. 0-0 Be7 11. a3 a5 12. Qc2 0-0 13. Rd1, which is i believe a recent Lautier-Flear game (found in Flear's TWIC THEORY article). It seems Topalov chose to liberate fast with 10... c5 so Kramnik's 11. dxc5 is probably consistent to take advantage of possible looseness in Black's position. Remember the most dangerous novelties are those which punish the opponent if he tries the "standard recipe". So perhaps Kramnik thinks 8. Be2 is a good antidote against the standard Meran dxc4/b5 plan?! From Flear's TWIC THEORY article: "In the Meran the move 8 Be2 has fallen out of fashion overall but it still seems to crop up in my games with both colours! Black has to play precisely in order to get out of the opening with anything like equality. I can’t always agree with some of the assessments given by ECO, which are sometimes too hasty to give equality when White still has chances for an edge. As I recently had this variation twice in two days (one with each colour) I thought you might like to share my feelings that things are not so simple for Black."-Flear


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #484 - 10/05/06 at 11:45:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	I hoped you would know

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #483 - 10/05/06 at 11:39:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	So what's 14 ...Rd8 about? Why isn't a7 en prise after an exchange of knights on d7?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #482 - 10/05/06 at 11:38:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am completely out of book and/or silicon. But the a7 pawn is poisionous, right? (14...Rd8)

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #481 - 10/05/06 at 11:29:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	strange position: No piece seems to be on an optimal spot.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #480 - 10/05/06 at 11:24:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	So Kramnik doesn't want to play 12 Nxc5 Bxc5 13 Qa4+. I was assuming this would force 13...Ke7, but maybe it didn't matter.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #479 - 10/05/06 at 11:23:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	...Nxc5 - so Topalov is happy to commit to playing with the king to the centre for a while at least. No doubt this is all ein bekente Russiche analyse and has been played in hundreds of games.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #478 - 10/05/06 at 11:15:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	My. I'm no expert - where's Inn2 when you need him? - but this dxc5 doesn't look terribly pressing. Can it be that Kramnik really wants to halve this out with White? 'Genuinely' in my last post should have said 'generally', of course.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #477 - 10/05/06 at 11:12:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well none of us saw that coming. Game four reversed - a semi-Slav. And Kramnik goes for the slightly fashionable but genuinely thought harmless sideline Be2. No surprise he avoided 5 Bg5 in the match situation, but now Topalov is thinking. Is Kramnik happy to draw this game, or does he have something in mind here?


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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #476 - 10/05/06 at 05:14:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	It will be very interesting to see what the next game brings. It seems very likely that Kramnik will aim for another Catalan -- he has done decently with that so far, and it makes little sense to change to something riskier at this stage. The real question is whether Topalov will be willing to play a Catalan again -- it is dangerous to give Kramnik so many bites at that apple, especially since he has had a few extra days to work something out. Topalov must also be sorely disappointed with the results of the last three games (I mean the 4, 6, and 7). He went from a game in which he had some pressure and missed his chances, to a quick draw, to a game where Kramnik turned down some implicit draw offers to try for the full point. This doesn't count as progress. It therefore seems likely that Topalov will try something new -- Kramnik was patient enough when -1 against Leko, but I don't think Topalov has the same level of comfort in match play, and especially given how he got his first point, he must be growing concerned. So, I will also be bold and predict a Kramnik victory. He looked sharp today, willing to fight on even after equalizing, and since he hasn't had the White pieces in a while, I am sure that he is ready for a battle. Since another victory at this point would virtually seal the match in his favor, I have to believe that he is going to strive for 1-0. I'm looking forward to an exciting game, regardless.


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #475 - 10/05/06 at 03:45:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Now that Topalov has had three Whites in a row, it's time for him to make some sort of outrageous gambit again. The Toilet Gambit netted him one point, but he can't use that one again. I wonder what it will be this time. Maybe Topalov will get his parapsychologist to call in a sick day for him so he can throw Kramnik off yet again. (This really does feel so much worse than the Karpov-Korchnoi matches, which is the only real comparison that I can think of in World Championship play.)


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #474 - 10/04/06 at 22:18:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	In reply to Markovich: I think this might be one of those games where the commentators are very keen to sacrifice someone else's pieces - or in this case weaken someone else's kingside for vague compensation. 25 g4's all very well, but......


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #473 - 10/04/06 at 22:16:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am old. I remember 1974, when Korchnoi needed to win the last game as Black against Karpov. It was said then that GM opinion about which opening he should play was unanimously in favour of the King's Indian Defence. Except Korchnoi, of course. He thought the QGA would be best. A quick draw, of course. You might be right, mind, but I don't think we'll see any of those openings tomorrow. Especially not the Dutch - has Topalov played it since that famous game he lost in 20 moves to a 2200 in about 1994/5?


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #472 - 10/04/06 at 22:06:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/04/06 at 20:56:54: So tomorrow, then? I suppose Kramnik will stick with his approach so far. Is Topalov going to go desperate yet? I'd say not, assuming he hopes to keep the stolen point. It's only one game to win back and I think he'll stick with ...Nf6....e6. Small sub-bet, though, if Topalov does play the King's Indian there is absolutely no way Kramnik would play dxe5, contrary to someone's opinion (sorry, forget where I saw this). 10-1 against this (assuming the position arises). That would be me, in the unlikely event of a KID I predicted dxe5! and draw, as Georgiev did against the Mad Hacker Sutovsky to win a tournament earlier this year. I forget which tournament though, but I am sure some forum poster will fill in the blanks. In any case the exchange variation against the KID should be enough of a deterrent against someone desperate to win as Black. Dutch, Benko or Mordern Benoni are all better for this purpose I would think. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #471 - 10/04/06 at 20:56:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	So tomorrow, then? I suppose Kramnik will stick with his approach so far. Is Topalov going to go desperate yet? I'd say not, assuming he hopes to keep the stolen point. It's only one game to win back and I think he'll stick with ...Nf6....e6. Small sub-bet, though, if Topalov does play the King's Indian there is absolutely no way Kramnik would play dxe5, contrary to someone's opinion (sorry, forget where I saw this). 10-1 against this (assuming the position arises).


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #470 - 10/04/06 at 16:44:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/04/06 at 16:30:24: Draw now official - interesting ending. In the big picture though this is a great result for Kramnik, he has 3 Whites to come now, I am sure Topalov was going all out to win today, as it happened in the end he did well to draw it. Not a very good game after the opening, I opine. White dithered.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #469 - 10/04/06 at 16:30:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Draw now official - interesting ending. In the big picture though this is a great result for Kramnik, he has 3 Whites to come now, I am sure Topalov was going all out to win today, as it happened in the end he did well to draw it.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #468 - 10/04/06 at 16:19:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik still has the extra pawn (maybe I was wrong earlier about Topalov's comp), but I think this should probably be a draw. Certainly White has no winning chances, but Kramnik may be able to make Toppy suffer. Now they're repeating the position - draw (maybe not official yet). It's official: Draw!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #467 - 10/04/06 at 15:39:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quite the display so far by Kramnik. Topalov's Qf3 retreat and g3 didnt help I think, but he just couldnt seem to find a point to punch into.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #466 - 10/04/06 at 15:34:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hmm, this looks rather annoying, just for a moment. I do hope Kramnik had entirely, er, taken 45 Rc7 into account.......


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #465 - 10/04/06 at 15:24:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Fine, yes, but not as good as I'd hoped for a moment. Still, huge blow for Topalov. He gets his prep and still can't lay a glove on Kramnik, indeed at best almost loses. Only two whites to go. If Kramnik just stays cool and keep a straight bat, I'm hopeful.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #464 - 10/04/06 at 15:19:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/04/06 at 15:13:23: Actually, I’m coming round to White. Maybe his drawing chances are greater than Black’s winning chances after all. So long as Topalov doesn't win, it's fine, no? A friend has come to pull me out for a beer. Sort of an early celebration for Topalov's down fall!

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #463 - 10/04/06 at 15:13:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	I guess White doesn’t fall for that: he goes 45 Kg2 or something and has counterplay: it’s hard for Black to break that pin without playing g6 and then White will surely draw once the pawns are split and he’s eliminated his h5 weakness. What about 44…Kh7? 45 Bd3 Nf6, perhaps – is …e5….e4 a threat? But Black isn’t threatening to take h5 anyway – maybe White just takes on a6 now, or Ra8. Actually, I’m coming round to White. Maybe his drawing chances are greater than Black’s winning chances after all.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #462 - 10/04/06 at 15:04:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Gosh, it's such agony watching this without an engine. Playing chess must be like this...... Can Black not just win here - 44...Nf8 45 Bxa6 Rb1 46 Kf1 Nd4 threatening ..Nc2 and ...Nf3. What's White doing about that? White might even lose with R B and 3 v R N and four. It's not easy to defend at the best of times - is h5 an asset or a weakness, I wonder? Guess it depends which bishop is left. If he has the white bishop it might help with tricks against Black's king.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #461 - 10/04/06 at 15:01:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Pop goes e5 pawn and the game.

	CastleRock
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #460 - 10/04/06 at 14:58:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nd3 eliminates one bishop. But Fritz down graded to (-0.65). But to my human eye 2nd and 3rd ranks look quite troublesome for white. Thats why I sought expert opinion

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #459 - 10/04/06 at 14:53:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Rublevsky must be loving this. Such karma for Danailov. I'm no great judge, but I'd say 0-1 was a definite favourite. What does Fritz say?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #458 - 10/04/06 at 14:52:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	I missed what happened earlier but I agree this has gone wrong for Toppy. I had thought it would be a very tricky one to convert into a win what with those bishops - but now I look at it I´m not so sure... this could be the critical game, I will tune in later to see what happened!


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #457 - 10/04/06 at 14:49:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Castlerock, I don’t think the question is whether Kramnik has a draw, but whether White has drawing chances and if so how. White’s e1 bishop is a terrible piece and Black seems to be forcing further exchanges without White acquiring any compensating activity. I don’t see a good move for White: if he moves the bishop is even ….Nd3 possible, meeting Rd1 with …Nxe5?


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #456 - 10/04/06 at 14:49:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	John, what's your take? Would you put your money on 0-1?

	CastleRock
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #455 - 10/04/06 at 14:45:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Excellent - Topalov settling down for a long think after the time control. Classic sign of a player surveying the wreck he's made of his position during the scramble - not that there was one really, but still. I have hopes here: if Vlad can convert this then the match is surely close to over even with the point start for Topalov.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #454 - 10/04/06 at 14:45:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	More than good. Both Knight captures will be good for black. Kramnik is assured of draw, me thinks.

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #453 - 10/04/06 at 14:39:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	40...Nb4 looks a good move to me


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #452 - 10/04/06 at 14:34:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have no engine here, but I think that after ...Qd7 White may perhaps have enough for his pawn, no more. I was absent for awhile, but it seemed to me that Topalov dithered around quite a bit starting with 21. Qf3.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #451 - 10/04/06 at 14:31:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Depends on whether Kramnik plays 40...Qd5. Withat e5 pawn will go and the game.

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #450 - 10/04/06 at 14:31:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik down to last seconds for move 40....


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #449 - 10/04/06 at 14:28:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	On the contrary, Keano, Fritz is notoriously optimistic with its claims of compensation for pawn sacrifices. If he says -0.69 when you have sacrificed a pawn that’s a serious bad sign. I think White could be in trouble here, possibly even lost. I don’t think Topalov saw 36…Nb6, or at least some tactic associated with it.


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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #448 - 10/04/06 at 14:25:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 10/04/06 at 14:21:57: No tricks I have seen at least. Not sure what Be1 is about looks rather silly to me. Could be protecting f2 in case of 39...Qd4

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #447 - 10/04/06 at 14:24:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 10/04/06 at 14:23:14: Engine says none. Threats keep popping up. Fridz like 39...Nd4 Says black is better. Equals plus (-0.69) to be precise Interesting - considering Black is a pawn up that would suggest to me White has decent play for it....


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #446 - 10/04/06 at 14:23:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	At a glance, I also prefer White. Topalov has plenty of comp for the pawn.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #445 - 10/04/06 at 14:23:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Engine says none. Threats keep popping up. Fridz like 39...Nd4 Says black is better. Equals plus (-0.69) to be precise

	CastleRock
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #444 - 10/04/06 at 14:21:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	No tricks I have seen at least. Not sure what Be1 is about looks rather silly to me.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #443 - 10/04/06 at 14:20:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have no engine, but to my eye I prefer to be White with the 2 bishops and the c-file, I may be talking rubbish as that has happened before.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #442 - 10/04/06 at 14:18:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Excellent - a proper job, lunch until 3.15. Yes, 40 in two, so no real time trouble. Can someone with an engine put me out of my misery, though? White doesn't have any clever tactic here involving trapping that rook, the back rank, or anything like that, does he?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #441 - 10/04/06 at 14:17:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	well 3 including this move 38, and he has 10 minutes so thats not too bad - what is the position? Toppy a pawn down but with 2 bishops v 2 knights.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #440 - 10/04/06 at 14:16:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Perhaps Topalov would have waggerd on 37.Qg4 Nd7 38.Qa4 Nb6 routine? Unlike Topalov, od course.

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #439 - 10/04/06 at 14:15:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	I went to lunch and missed everything - is the time control move 40? If so Kramnik has just 2 more moves to make it?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #438 - 10/04/06 at 14:10:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	I imagine you are also on the punter level, a broad one in my vocabulary. The higher one’s rating gets in my experience, the clearer it is to one that one understands virtually nothing about the game. The b-pawn doesn’t look so immune to me now after say 37 Qf4 Rxb2. And allowing the knight to d4 by moving the queen off the fourth rank doesn’t look so clever, either. Is it possible that White has slightly stubbed his toe, I wonder? He’s been thinking a long time if he was expecting 36…Nb6.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #437 - 10/04/06 at 14:02:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	If you're playing punter-level, what would that say about my level? I am inclined to agree, but still think white has better play, especially if the queens go off. I havent calculated everything but I think the b-pawn is immune after Qe4.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #436 - 10/04/06 at 13:59:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Or doesn't force exchanges if White plays Bc2 of course. What's that about then? Why isn't b2 just en prise, I wonder? Still Vlad seems to reckon he has the thing under control; he's replied very quickly. I guess ...Nb6 was to keep e4 under observation and stop Qe4.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #435 - 10/04/06 at 13:54:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	I don't think so - 35...Qb7 forces exchanges; it could even be at punter level (ie me) that White is the one having trouble. I think we'll see a draw pretty soon.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #434 - 10/04/06 at 13:49:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Now they start playing too quick, I cant even make a coffee and two moves have been played Now after move 34 white looks better to me, whether it is winnable is difficult to see for me.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #433 - 10/04/06 at 13:46:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	I know what you mean, Willempie, and a priori I'd think White was better too. But I have an idea I've seen this sort of structure before and Black was pretty comfortable - of course, it all depends where the pieces are. And the clock times are encouraging too; Kramnik's playing fast and seems to be under no particular pressure.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #432 - 10/04/06 at 13:43:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	I posted once. Let me post again. How much the world loves Kramnik's draws now!

	CastleRock
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #431 - 10/04/06 at 13:40:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	I was holding my breath and didn't want to shoot my mouth (as always, except when I want to bad mouth Topalov) After 32...b5 looks like it is a draw.

	CastleRock
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #430 - 10/04/06 at 13:40:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/04/06 at 13:30:08: I'm beyond hoping for interesting chess. I'm am at the stage where I don't mind who wins as long as it's not Topalov. I hear the engines liked your 25 g4, by the way. I'll be submitting a protest about you using them to post without announcing it in due course. 27 Rfe1, eh? Is that a silent draw offer - 27...Bb4 28 Rf1 and so on -, or is Topalov going to go 28 Bd2? See they should have hired me iso Fritz9. He only got 70% right b5 I didnt look at that one, looks like a good plan for black to exchange the whole q-side

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #429 - 10/04/06 at 13:38:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well I am not too sure. The pawn structure reminds me of the forum game against HgMan in the Caro advance in which even with all exchanges black had a very tough time. Plus now white has the bishops so black seems to be destined to defending. Then again I am no Kramnik so I may be completely off

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #428 - 10/04/06 at 13:33:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Excellent - exchanges. Looks like the draw shouldn't be too far away, hopefully....


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #427 - 10/04/06 at 13:32:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ah - no, he's going to go Nf7 of course and Black's going to have to resign. Well, let's hope Rybka or whatever big Vlad's using is up to spotting that one.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #426 - 10/04/06 at 13:30:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm beyond hoping for interesting chess. I'm am at the stage where I don't mind who wins as long as it's not Topalov. I hear the engines liked your 25 g4, by the way. I'll be submitting a protest about you using them to post without announcing it in due course. 27 Rfe1, eh? Is that a silent draw offer - 27...Bb4 28 Rf1 and so on -, or is Topalov going to go 28 Bd2?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #425 - 10/04/06 at 13:20:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well I was rather hoping for a clash like in some of the K&K games where Kasparov went for the attack, but Karpov defended resourcefully.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #424 - 10/04/06 at 13:16:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	I understand the engines are saying it's equal, and certainly it seems to have stabilised. Let's hope so.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #423 - 10/04/06 at 13:12:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/04/06 at 13:08:13: Half right! Yeah seems my link to Topalov is transferring the moves only partly

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #422 - 10/04/06 at 13:08:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Half right!


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #421 - 10/04/06 at 13:04:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/04/06 at 13:00:04: So is Kramnik really going to play ....Bxe5, I wonder? Looks nice for White after that, but maybe it's not so easy, take the f6 knight to f8, aim to trade a few rooks in the centre somehow. That knight on d5's going to get in Black's own way though. Anyone got a machine telling them what's going on? I am rather expecting 25.g4 now or next move. I dont really see what black can do against this as his pieces are a bother to move to a better spot.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #420 - 10/04/06 at 13:00:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	So is Kramnik really going to play ....Bxe5, I wonder? Looks nice for White after that, but maybe it's not so easy, take the f6 knight to f8, aim to trade a few rooks in the centre somehow. That knight on d5's going to get in Black's own way though. Anyone got a machine telling them what's going on?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #419 - 10/04/06 at 12:49:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm liking this less and less. Black can't move his f6 or d5 knights, and none of his other pieces can do much. This kind of passive position is the hardest to pay in time trouble, too. But Kramnik has the best sense in the world for these positions where White is better but can't break through. Let's hope it's one of those. ...h6....shudder...the white squares ....shudder. Does Black ever do that in these positions?! Maybe it's a bonus available because he hasn't been forced into ....g6?!


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #418 - 10/04/06 at 12:41:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topalov appears to be having a think now. Rd3 is the obvious candidate, isn't it? What else, I wonder? [modified] Well, that shows why I'm not a GM, I guess.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #417 - 10/04/06 at 12:32:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hard to say. It's difficult to take the bishop to b1-h7 without going all in by allowing ...Rc2 and giving up b2. I'd be looking at rook lifts, but those are a bit all-in as well. Move 20 - still in Topa's prep. Oh dear, oh dear....


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #416 - 10/04/06 at 12:28:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well I´m not sure about this position - it looks solid for Kramnik but devoid of much active counterplay - I would´ve gone for this as Black though given the position. The problem is Kramnik is almost an hour behind on the clock, which might become meaningful if Topalov can generate some pressure.....


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #415 - 10/04/06 at 12:27:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, after 19. Rcd1 it appears to be a very nice position for White. On the other hand, I'm not sure what White can do to strengthen his kingside pressure. It seems to me that he wants to transfer his bishop to the b1-h7 diagonal, am I wrong?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #414 - 10/04/06 at 12:21:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	I don't like this at all. Normally Black trades that bishop on c6 and gets the b-file and buttressing d5 as compensation. ....Bd5 looks like a sign of distress to me, and White saving the tempo on Qe2 while hiking his queen to the kingside also looks like a gain. And clearly we're still in Topalov's preparation.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #413 - 10/04/06 at 12:12:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topalov has obviously caught Kramnik in the opening in some way. I fear for Kramnik here. He's using a lot of time and this isn't a position-type he plays often; even for the best these IQPs are difficult unprepared; remember Kamsky-Karpov. In the opening, interesting Topalov offered the known 'equaliser' 4...Bf5 and Kramnik bypassed it.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #412 - 10/04/06 at 12:04:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	....Bc6 coming I suppose, but I am still taking White here, Topalov seems to have used much less time on the clock than Kramnik which might mean something or might mean nothing...


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #411 - 10/04/06 at 12:00:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello, Now thinking this is something that Topalov could have expected from Leko v Kramnik match, only difference is with a6, instead of a7. Bye John S


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #410 - 10/04/06 at 11:53:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am a bit surprised Kramnik has gone for this line, it looks tricky to handle for Black to my eye. I would not fancy having to defend this position in a tournament, but then again I am not Kramnik


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #409 - 10/04/06 at 11:46:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Good question, Viking. Cheparinov's another of the same hue, but he does have one or two respectable GMs there - does Onischuk want to be associated with this sort of garbage, I wonder?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #408 - 10/04/06 at 11:45:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm no expert, but Kramnik has played unusually too, I think. You don't normally see ....Be8 with the rook still on ...f8, I don't think. I too would have thought a4 in conjunction with Bb3 was strange. It amounts to having played Bb3 unusually early in the Botvinnik Variation (with 7 a4), I would have thought. But of course Topalov will have wanted to exclude something in particular with this order.


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Viking God Member Offline Posts: 673 Location: Norway Joined: 10/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #407 - 10/04/06 at 11:44:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Team Topalov/Danailov is just incredible! They obviously lack understanding for chess within their team.... One thing is Topalov that obviously has to stand behind these "attacks" - he uses ANY means to try to win the WC title. But I cant really understand the other participants, especially the other chess GM colleages, that also take part of this. They will be marked as idiots for the rest of their life. Cant believe they will get any respect or friends within the chess community after this match... I wonder if the atmosphere within the team is good? Will we soon see someone abandon the team? Btw, I wonder what would be the result if they did the same analysis with mr Topalov himself....


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #406 - 10/04/06 at 11:38:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello, On the board, as usual, don't understand what Topalov is upto, 12a4 looks a bit weird to me. Surely could have played a4 earlier, and kept more options open, although I suppose if intending Re1, Bb3 does not matter too much. The latest tactics from Danailov likely to turn off even more Topalov fans. Bye John S


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #405 - 10/04/06 at 11:33:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Just received an SMS from a friend. “Danailov and Topalov are toxic waste in trousers.” I like it! Topalov fans, forgive me.

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #404 - 10/04/06 at 11:30:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Perhaps it sounded too emotional; there is nothing for me to be proud of. I shook hands with Kramnik, and the match continued. I believe that his play is fair, and my decision to continue the match proves it. We are humans, and sometimes we make mistakes. This was what Topalov said yesterday, so it seems like it is his manager Danailov who is taking it on himself to produce these dirty tactics. On the chess, I agree with John´s previous comment - very interesting opening choice by both today....


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Gil-galad YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 19 Joined: 09/08/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #403 - 10/04/06 at 11:29:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	I should have mentioned that the press release was reported on chessbase site


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #402 - 10/04/06 at 11:27:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Now you see it, now you don't! No Slav, then. This is a massive psychological choice by Kramnik and indeed both players. This line is Kramnik's anti-QGA patent as White, developed in the Kramnik-Anand match, and he has been putting big problems in Black's way. What's more, both players are bound to have prepared very heavily for a very sharp position, one which suits Topalov's style ideally on the face of it. It's a huge, huge, call by Kramnik to allow this position, and Topalov's called him on it. Danailov - beneath contempt. I'd imagine Kramnik will rise above. If FIDE had any balls, they would throw Danailov out of the match and tell Topalov that if there's any more of this nonsense he'll be forfeited, but don't hold your breath. And after Topalov said in the press conference that he didn't think Kramnik was cheating, too. If this stuff is truly a press release by Danailov, then Topalov's dwindling band of supporters is going to be down to a very few.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #401 - 10/04/06 at 11:23:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	First, the game: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6 5. Bd3 dxc4 6. Bxc4 c5 7. O-O a6 8. Bb3 cxd4 9. exd4 Nc6 10. Nc3 Be7 Clever move order by Topalov we didnt think of, and Kramnik takes opportunity to transpose back to QGA - I think this line could be a better shot from Topalov. Next - the Danailov press release is just plain crazy, obviously an attempt to just plain annoy Kramnik and unsettle him. I disagree with Crowther though about his doubts about the match continuing - I am sure Danailov would love it if Kramnik walked off in disgust, but the match will continue and we will have to try and concentrate on the chess and not Danailovs crazy press releases.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #400 - 10/04/06 at 11:14:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	What the hell is he talking about. My son (Fide 1969) makes 80% fridz moves (top 2 candidates). It’s because of the balance 20% he is still at 1969! What a scumbag! If Topalov has any semblance of decency left out, he should fire him. Otherwise, we should start calling him, Super GM Fridz TopaLOO.

	CastleRock
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Gil-galad YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 19 Joined: 09/08/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #399 - 10/04/06 at 11:06:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Coincidence Statistics of the moves of GM Kramnik with recommendations of the chess program Fritz 9 Elista, October 4, 2006 After very detailed analyze of all games of the match we would like to present to your attention coincidence statistics of the moves of GM Kramnik with recommendations of chess program Fritz 9. First game: From 75 moves: After the 12th move of Topalov Ba6, a novelty, from 65 remaining moves – 41 moves match with the first line of Fritz 9. (63% of matches) Second game: From 63 moves: After 17th move, where the theory ends, from remaining 46 moves- 40 moves match with the first line of Fritz 9. (87 % of matches) Third game From 38 moves: after 10th move, when the theory ends, from 46 remaining moves- 40 match with the first line of Fritz 9. (86 % of matches) Forth game: From 54 moves: After 14th move, when the theory ends, from 40 remaining moves- 30 match with the first line of Fritz 9. (75% of matches) Sixth game: From 31 moves: After 13th move, when the theory ends, from 18 remaining moves – 14 match with the first line of Fritz9. (78% of matches) Thus, out of 5 games – 78% of GM Kramnik’s moves match with the first line of Fritz9. Sincerely Silvio Danailov Please note press release above!!!!! Are we witnessing the end of this match?


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #398 - 10/04/06 at 11:01:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Slav 4.e3 it is.

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #397 - 10/04/06 at 10:55:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	For me, theoretically the most interesting game of the match was the last one where Kramnik played the old Smyslov line and equalised very nicely. This game poses big questions for all 1.d4 players - I predict that Topalov will either avoid this line altogether with 4.e3 and we´ll get a another Semi-slav Meran. The problem here for Toppy is that Kramnik has tremendous experience and a good feel for this line - nevertheless it may be his best option (being a 1.e4 player I am not up on the latest Meran theory). His other option, which is quite plausible, is to admit that he is getting nowhere against Kramniks solid 1.d4 defences and do a switch to 1.e4 - in this case I doubt very much Kramnik will go for the Berlin as Toppy has deep knowledge here also, but instead we will get a Petroff - the fashionable way here now is that early Nc3 and dxc3 stuff and that is a posibillity - but I fancy if a Petroff comes then Topalov will go straight down the main-line and have some deep prep ready (which Kramnik no doubt will be ready for!) All complete speculation of course, but good fun


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #396 - 10/04/06 at 10:08:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	If Topalov’s ever going to go e4 I think now is the moment. But on the whole I agree that he’s most likely to go d4. What Kramnik will play is another matter. I guess the most likely is the Slav. Topalov has shown very little against it so far – in game one Kramnik had some pretty reliable equalisers to my eye if he didn’t allow g4 when he did. We may well see 3 Nc3 4 e3, and then it looks as though Kramnik intends a semi-Slav (I’ve actually forgotten whether game four started like this or not). But Kramnik may change too, of course. In London he didn’t stick religiously to the Berlin. I’d guess he’ll stick to 1…d5 though, either the QGA or Tartakover.


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #395 - 10/04/06 at 05:22:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	The 6.Ne5 line of the Slav is definitely sharp, critical, and complicated. However, Kramnik has also developed much of its theory, especially in the Bishop sac line. He might have some more drawish positions worked out there that he is waiting to uncork. What bothers me more though, is what Topalov could do to deviate or improve against the 7...c5 line Kramnik already used. Maybe instead of 7.f3...something else. What do you think? If he finds something, then I would agree that 6.Ne5 is the way to go.


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #394 - 10/04/06 at 05:02:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	J-dog wrote on 10/04/06 at 04:31:05: Scholar, I strongly feel that Topalov should test Kramnik's Semi-Slav again with the 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 move order. This is his best chance to get a sharp, complicated game that would suit his talents. I think the Meran proper is a good battle ground for him, I'm just wondering if he is hitting any stumbling blocks in his preparation within that system finding new paths that hold some promise of a fight. I would have thought this wouldn't be tough considering the nature of the Meran, but I don't know the latest of the latest on its theory. The Anti-Meran 6.Qc2 is also a tempting choice, trying to initiate a slugfest in the 7.g4 labyrinth. However, I am fairly certain that Kramnik would avoid this with either 6...b6 (likely) or 6...Be7 (unlikely but possible). Even so, the 6...b6 lines might have enough juice in them that he could squeeze out a few drops of "play." Kasparov even used it once to beat Vallejo; on the other hand, he later admitted to playing dull openings vs. the Spaniard in order to dampen his creativity. All in all, I would pick the most complicated and protracted struggle if I were Topalov even if the position is only equal or unclear. I like the Meran. Okay, here's what I think of the Meran status at present (an opening which i played from 1500 to ~2200 now): Old Meran 6. Bd3: Kramnik only plays 8.... Bb7, and anyway 8... a6 9. e4 c5 10. e5 cxd4 11. Nxb5 gives White a small annoying nibble according to my last theoretical information. 8... Bb7 9. a3: Black can draw, unlikely Topalov will repeat. Unless he gets pissed (sorry for the pun) by Kramnik's "i was interested in soccer" comment. Main line 8... Bb7 9. 0-0 a6 10. e4 c5 11. d5 will suit Kramnik well since he created some significant theory here himself, so he should play this line capably even without specific preparation. 6. Qc2 b6 suits Topalov fine: a tense complicated middlegame where White can dictate matters. So Kramnik should play 6... Bd6! when I think Topalov doesn't have a good sharp move, since 7. g4 is definitely a dubious choice against Kramnik! My conclusion? i think 6. Ne5 Slav is more likely..


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #393 - 10/04/06 at 04:55:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik will stick to his guns. Catalan, Catalan, Catalan. If Topalov is going to whip out the Modern Benoni (which would, admittedly, be risky), then there is no better time than vs. 3.g3. I feel Topalov could put up a good fight there. He has more experience with those lines, and theoretically speaking, though respectable and dangerous, it's not as critical as the more aggressive white systems. That said, Kramnik might play the Anti-Benoni line of the English Opening, 4.Nf3, which is more sedate i.e. it suited Karpov better most of the time. This is the most probable, in my mind. Perhaps Topalov might then try 4...cd4 5.Nd4 d5!? with 6...e5!? to follow or 5...Bc5 and 6...Qb6. I'm no Symmetrical English expert, so I have no idea what the heck these systems are about, they just seem attractive for a Topalov type player.


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #392 - 10/04/06 at 04:47:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Don't forget both Kasparov and Leko desperately switched from 1. e4 to 1. d4 in the middle of their matches with Kramnik! Kramnik should be super-booked on the Petroff with Motylev and Rublevsky on his team. iirc Topalov started out in his career as a 1. d4 player. The first move is hard to change, inevitably one always goes back to the childhood love, especially in the most crucial events. Experience and understanding counts more than knowledge of theory i think, even at 2800. I predict a 6. Ne5 Slav for the next game, with possibly a new idea by either side.


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #391 - 10/04/06 at 04:41:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	So, Does anyone expect Kramnik to deviate from his successful Catalan play? If not, how does Topalov get into a position that he can play comfortably as Black? This is beginning to have that Kramnik-Kasparov 2000 feel when Kramnik has White. Sooner or later, the water torture methods (pun intended) that Kramnik has used so well will tell on Topalov over the board!


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #390 - 10/04/06 at 04:31:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Scholar, I strongly feel that Topalov should test Kramnik's Semi-Slav again with the 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 move order. This is his best chance to get a sharp, complicated game that would suit his talents. I think the Meran proper is a good battle ground for him, I'm just wondering if he is hitting any stumbling blocks in his preparation within that system finding new paths that hold some promise of a fight. I would have thought this wouldn't be tough considering the nature of the Meran, but I don't know the latest of the latest on its theory. The Anti-Meran 6.Qc2 is also a tempting choice, trying to initiate a slugfest in the 7.g4 labyrinth. However, I am fairly certain that Kramnik would avoid this with either 6...b6 (likely) or 6...Be7 (unlikely but possible). Even so, the 6...b6 lines might have enough juice in them that he could squeeze out a few drops of "play." Kasparov even used it once to beat Vallejo; on the other hand, he later admitted to playing dull openings vs. the Spaniard in order to dampen his creativity. All in all, I would pick the most complicated and protracted struggle if I were Topalov even if the position is only equal or unclear. I like the Meran.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #389 - 10/04/06 at 04:30:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	No. Kramnik is playing. That’s official. Legal battle will start in case there is a tie. I.e. if Kramnik is +1 and Topalov and FIDE call it =. lol

	CastleRock
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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #388 - 10/04/06 at 04:16:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK. Enough. Everyone has his opinion, and if it were likely to change, it would already have. I know that today between the rest day and uneventful draw, there might not have been much to talk about, but as long as actual chess games are occuring, let us all just agree to focus on that. (If the match gets cancelled, as it sadly still might, we can all go back to this endless debate.) So let's just give me the last word, shall we? I am more more interested in knowing what Topalov will try in the next game -- he seems to be getting less and less from the opening. To be held to draws in three straight Whites cannot be good for his sanity. Kramnik claimed that he was more worried about football in game 4, and in game 6 it seemed that he barely broke a sweat. If game 7 goes the same way...


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #387 - 10/04/06 at 04:15:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	....and....CURTAIN.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #386 - 10/04/06 at 01:53:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 10/03/06 at 22:53:14: TalJechin wrote on 10/03/06 at 15:31:50: Tales from the Toilet - aka Markovich vs ROW This particularly lopsided match was over quite awhile ago, the final score: Cox 12 Markovich zilch. Not only was Markovich defeated in the match, but also in all subsequent post mortems. His only aim now seems to be in trying to get the last word in. We should at least let him win that. Topster No, on the contrary, I'm quite happy to rest on the points that I've already made -- particularly since some here have expressed distate for seeing the discussion continued. My major points have, so far as I can tell, scarcely even been engaged by my rhetorical opponents here, let alone refuted. Fortunately, the validity of my case doesn't depend on the degree of agreement it finds here.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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katar Senior Member Offline look another year went by Posts: 463 Location: LA Joined: 09/21/05 Gender:	TOPALOV = BREAST CANCER. Reply #385 - 10/03/06 at 23:33:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	This discussion quickly degenerated into a public stoning-- even among this intelligent, educated chess-playing audience. While Markovich has taken a lashing here, Topalov is likened to no less than BREAST CANCER in the aptly-named toilet thread. Ideally, solutions/opinions are not to be determined in the same way as a homecoming queen. So these popularity contests are hardly relevant........ It is ironic that (generally) those with the least expertise have made the boldest assertions. How about less rhetoric and more substance? I have extended on my (legal) argument in the toilet thread. You can find that post a few screens above the reference to "Topalov = Breast Cancer".

	2078 uscf
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #384 - 10/03/06 at 22:53:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 10/03/06 at 15:31:50: Tales from the Toilet - aka Markovich vs ROW This particularly lopsided match was over quite awhile ago, the final score: Cox 12 Markovich zilch. Not only was Markovich defeated in the match, but also in all subsequent post mortems. His only aim now seems to be in trying to get the last word in. We should at least let him win that. Topster

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #383 - 10/03/06 at 17:18:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 10/03/06 at 15:31:50: Tales from the Toilet is evidently the right place for the legal discussion - aka Markovich vs ROW ROFL

	CastleRock
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #382 - 10/03/06 at 15:31:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 10/03/06 at 13:49:32: Frankly I am growing quite tired of the discussion in this thread! People keep reiterating their views, something which they have done x times before. We all know what your views are so please stop spamming the thread. If you insist on continuing please move on to the 'tales from the toilet'-thread where it really belongs and let us keep this thread for discussing the games and other aspects of the match. I've given you a push by posting a translation of Sand's letter. I also agree with Klick. The match is on again so let's use this thread for the match. Tales from the Toilet is evidently the right place for the legal discussion - aka Markovich vs ROW


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #381 - 10/03/06 at 15:03:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, yes, yes. We know that YOU don't think that playing with the conditions altered is a disadvantage. But if the players didn't then they wouldn't have engaged people to spend fly to Elista and spend hours negotiating those conditions beforehand. In any event you are not answering the question. Let me restate it. Assume that the organisers, in breach of contract, purport to stage a game of the match in conditions other than the agreed conditions of contest, in a fashion which the player perceives disadvantage him. Other than exercising his contractual right not to continue to perform his part of the contract until the breach is rectified, what remedy do you say that the player has? It is not to be supposed that the organisers can simply breach the contract without redress. surely? As to hotly contested rulings placing a player at a disadvantage, you are ignoring my assumption. Hotly contested rulings within the contractual conditions naturally have to be put up with. For the purpose of this discussion I am assuming (against your view I know) that what happened here was a breach of contract by the organisers.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #380 - 10/03/06 at 14:13:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/03/06 at 13:55:23: Humour me in one respect though: by way of further exploration of my point, let us suppose that FIDE were indeed in breach of the contract by failing to provide the conditions for the game that had been agreed upon without any contractual justification. What do you say Kramnik’s proper remedy would have been? According to you, if he doesn’t play he loses a point without redress. If he does play at a disadvantage and loses. would you say he could then sue for damages? What disadvantage? If the ruling had placed Kramnik at a recognizable disadvantage in subsequent chess games, then I would say that he had no alternative but to cease play in protest. It would not have been an appropriate remedy to the complaint, in any case, to place Kramnik at any sort of disadvantage. I don't think many reasonable people will say that Kramnik was disadvantaged by having to use an alternative bathroom; particularly since his opponent had to use it also. Oh well, we can always say, this being chess and the Test of Wills and so on, that any even mildly irritating ruling places a highly tempermental GM at a "disadvantage." Well, I'm sorry, but if you're a sporting competitor, grow up and learn to live with some little irritations and some trivial decisions that don't go 100% your way. If being told to put your clock on the other side of the board (which would have been a more significant impingement on Kramnik's game than the change of bathrooms!) is going to throw you off your game, retire and play correspondence chess. If we're going to say that this ruling placed Kramnik at a disadvantage, what possible ruling on any subject, if hotly disputed by a player, could not be said to place that player at a "disadvantage?"

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #379 - 10/03/06 at 14:08:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	Martin Bennedik has interesting Chess Blog with coverage of the Kramnik-Topalov match, including some opening theory where he previews likely lines for upcoming games: http://www.bennedik.de/ I agree with Klick that further toiletgate discussion belongs in the Tales from the Toilet... thread, if anywhere, but certainly not here.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #378 - 10/03/06 at 13:55:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, you're entitled to your view, unimaginative though it is. And I agree about corruption: it was clearly a procedurally flawed decision, the release of the restroom videos without Kramnik's knowledge or consent beggared belief, in view it was also a decision betond the committee's powers and politically it was a very stupid decision, but I don't think it was corrupt or even biased. My impression on the contrary is that the likes of Azmai and Macro simply come from a culture where there is no such thing as proprieties and contracts are for little people, and naturally act accordingly. Humour me in one respect though: by way of further exploration of my point, let us suppose that FIDE were indeed in breach of the contract by failing to provide the conditions for the game that had been agreed upon without any contractual justification. What do you say Kramnik’s proper remedy would have been? According to you, if he doesn’t play he loses a point without redress. If he does play at a disadvantage and loses. would you say he could then sue for damages? How are those to be assessed? The chance that he might have won otherwise? You may say that separate loos can’t affect the outcome of a game, but as I said before, these provisions were agreed upon for a reason. It just doesn’t work. It’s basic contract law. If one party’s in breach the other can demand it be put right before he goes on. Of course if you are right that FIDE was not in breach of the contract, then you are right. But do you not agree that it’s all about the contract, not about the laws of the game?


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #377 - 10/03/06 at 13:49:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Frankly I am growing quite tired of the discussion in this thread! People keep reiterating their views, something which they have done x times before. We all know what your views are so please stop spamming the thread. If you insist on continuing please move on to the 'tales from the toilet'-thread where it really belongs and let us keep this thread for discussing the games and other aspects of the match. I've given you a push by posting a translation of Sand's letter.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #376 - 10/03/06 at 13:43:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/03/06 at 10:51:23: I find it a bit silly joining the gutter press in mocking the gravity of the situation. It’s really rather unimaginative not to be able to grasp the psychological significance of a private space in these matches. There’s a reason all top-level matches have had them for a long time. I am sure that it would bore everyone if I rejoined you on all of the points raised in your two long and well-reasoned posts above, each addressed to me. I think we understand our differences very well, in any case. What will be the outcome of anything that happens in the lawcourts, we will have to wait and see. But I did want to respond to the quoted text, since it does seem to tar my position by association. We don't really have a "gutter press" here except the one that is obsessed with Brad Pitt, Angelina Jolie, Lady Di's most recent missives from beyond the grave, the extraterrestrial origin of whales, and the like. It would be most extraordinary if it took any cognizance at all of chess. I don't know what your English tabloids are saying about Elista, though now that you remind me of their existence, I can imagine. Still, I congradulate you on having a "gutter press" that at least pays attention to these things. But even if it does coincide with that of some execrable English tabloids, I maintain my view that the question of bathroom privileges is quite a trivial one, and a wholly insufficient ground for jeopardizing an important WC match. It certainly does not, in my view, merit all the tooth-knashing and shirt-rending that it has received on this board and elsewhere. It is risible to say, as Kramnik and many others have, that a "bad" ruling on the point of bathrooms evidences a corrupt abritration committee. "There! See? They won't let me use my bathroom!"

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #375 - 10/03/06 at 13:09:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/03/06 at 12:10:10: Once the organisers seek to have the game played outside the conditions of contest, they are in breach of the contract. Once that happens, the player's remedy, ultimately enforceable at law, is to be put back in the position he would have been in had the contract been properly performed. Whether one should be put back in the position from the start is an issue i think. I don't think all legal systems agree on the extent of this.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #374 - 10/03/06 at 12:55:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sorry, not chesspro. Here's the link: http://www.sport-express.ru/art.shtml?128422 My Russian's not up to the task, I'm afraid. Anyone?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #373 - 10/03/06 at 12:50:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Interestingly, chesspro.ru apparently have a letter from Morten Sand, FIDE's lawyer, to Ilyumzhinov, advising him that he and FIDE's Swiss lawyer agree that if the forfeit is reversed Topalov would be able to sue and that they run no risk from Kramnik. This suggests that the venue would be that sport court in Lausanne and the law Swiss law, which may make a difference or it may not. I suppose I have three observations, speaking from my professional experience: 1. Never take a lawyer's published advice at face value. He will have given private advice also. 2. If this Sand was also the fellow who drew up the rules and regulations, one thing about which there can be no dispute is that he made a complete mess of that. 3. Never trust someone who produces a lawyer's opinion instead of the contractual documents themselves. They may of course be subject to a confidentiality clause, but if so they shouldn't have been. Either the letter or the report is incomplete, of course. He will also have had to advise whether the Appeals Committee had the power to do what it did, whether it acted in breach of the regulations governing the match (self-evidently it did) and what flows from that, and so on. Still, it looks as though Mr Sand agrees with Markovich and keano.


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Mortal Games God Member Offline Posts: 587 Joined: 07/24/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #372 - 10/03/06 at 12:38:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Eight important points by Susan Polgar: Quote: 1. It was a blunder for Topalov to accept to play the match in Elista, a bad move. It used to be that World Championship Matches are supposed to be played in neutral countries. 2. I think it was a blunder for Kramnik to sign this contract as it was written. I do not know why he would sign a contract with the following provisions if he feels that FIDE is on Topalov's side and he would not get fair justice, especially when Topalov is the FIDE World Champion. 3. 17. 1 The written decision of the Appeals Committee arising from any dispute in respect of these regulations shall be final. 3. 23. 1 At any time in the course of the application of these regulations, any grounds that are not covered or any unforeseen event shall be referred to the Presidential Board or the President of FIDE, for final decision. 3. It was wrong for the appeals committee to accept the protest if it was filed late (according to Kramnik). 4. It was wrong for the appeals committee to make a decision without consulting Kramnik (according to Kramnik). 5. The tone and language of Danailov's letters went too far. It was totally unprofessional. The most outrageous point was about the refusal to shake hands. 6. Kramnik could have immediately offered to have the other team inspect his restroom to avoid any possible doubt. A better explanation could have been given. 7. Carsten Hensel should not have demanded for an apology from Danailov and left the issue of no handshake alone. There was no need to get into this war of words while Kramnik was leading 3-1. He should have let the world make judgment on Danailov. There was no need to insist on this. 8. Topalov should have salvaged the mess by insisting on continuing the match with the 3-1 score after the bathroom issue was resolved. This would have been the honorable and right thing to do.

	It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses. It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Paul123 Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 109 Location: USA Joined: 11/01/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #371 - 10/03/06 at 12:29:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm coming into this late.... "as usual....." Someone correct me if I'm wrong... Kramnik shows up to play and finds the private bathrooms off limit. Then he refuses to continue the match. The organizers/match official’s award a point to Topalov for Kramnik's forfeit of the day’s game. Match goes up in flames....negotiations ensue... Match back on track.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #370 - 10/03/06 at 12:21:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/03/06 at 12:10:10: Malc is right of course, they should have filed a protest making this point and lots of other points, but only for political and presentational reasons. Perhaps. But I was speaking from purely legal angle. I think, lack of written protest is not a handicap to set aside game 5 through out the common wealth.

	CastleRock
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #369 - 10/03/06 at 12:20:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	I had a brief look at 10.Bxd4 before my last post Inn2. After for instance 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.Ne5 e6 7.f3 c5 8.e4 Bg6 9.Be3 cxd4 10.Bxd4 Nfd7 11.Nxc4 Nc6 12.Be3 Bb4 13.Nd6+ Kf8 I very much doubt that the slight misplacement of Black's king is significant for the evaluation of the position. Black's development is better than white's and after a move by Nd7 something must be done about the white knight. ..Qh4+ is also an idea. Alternatively 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.Ne5 e6 7.f3 c5 8.e4 Bg6 9.Be3 cxd4 10.Bxd4 Nfd7 11.Nxd7 Qxd7 12.Bxc4 Nc6 must also be nothing. So I don't think 10.Bxd4 is any improvement.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #368 - 10/03/06 at 12:10:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	It doesn't make any difference. There is nothing to protest against. Once the organisers seek to have the game played outside the conditions of contest, they are in breach of the contract. Once that happens, the player's remedy, ultimately enforceable at law, is to be put back in the position he would have been in had the contract been properly performed. Nothing that happens after the breach matters (unless the player were to accept it, for example). Malc is right of course, they should have filed a protest making this point and lots of other points, but only for political and presentational reasons. My impression is that Macropoulos at any rate understands the above. Of course FIDE say there is no way to reverse the forfeit, because to do so they would have to admit that the Appeals Committee's decision was beyond its powers and that FIDE itself was in breach of contract.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #367 - 10/03/06 at 12:03:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Lets recap 1) Topalov team wants the video recordings of Kramnik’s rest room. Appeals Committee simply hands over the tape without consulting or informing Kramnik. Violation of Principle of Natural Justice. 2) Topalov team makes a complaint that Kramnik’s conduct is not above board, on the day after the 4th game. It was an official protest and the appeal fee of $5000 was paid by Topalov & Co. Even Markovich will not deny it. The protest is bad in law and hence null and void, since it was not made within two hours as stipulated by the tournament rules. (Surely, Kramnik’s pissing habits in his cottage cannot be considered “On going conduct”, can it?) AC has clearly acted ultra vires. It doesn’t take rocket science to understand this. Because of this simple fact, a court action will favour Kramnik. 3) Kramnik was asked to explain his conduct, but the judgment upholding the appeal was unilateral without discussion with Kramnik. Again violation of natural justice and ultra vires. 4) Any unilateral change in the playing conditions or staying conditions contrary to what is provided in the contract makes it voidable in the hands of the aggrieved party or makes it redressable in the hands of the aggrieved party. What Macro guy said about toilet implying common toilet is pure BS. With the same analogy we can say coffee in rest room can imply coffee bean and not necessarily drinkable coffee. FIDE acting thro its AC has clearly committed a breach of contract. 5) There upon Kramnik gave a written complaint regarding breach of contract which was pending disposal when the clock was started. Usual concept of bowing to authority does not work here. Mark Crowther also has Marcovich’s opinion that sitting out is wrong which is flawed. Inzaman-Ball tampering is sited as an analogy. This is flawed since match condition was not altered at the beginning of a game. The point is, if in a new game Inzamam was given a 10 ounce ball and was asked start the game and if he chose to sit out, I think game score would have been cancelled in International Arbitration. This may well be Kramnik’s case should he choose to contest. 6) Finally saying that he has not protested in writing within two hrs, is sheer madness, imnsho. It is the very contract Kramnik was contesting at that point. Where is the question of following one sub clause?

	CastleRock
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #366 - 10/03/06 at 11:56:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	If I were Topalov I wouldn't mind going for the 6. Ne5/ 8... Bg6 Slav again, this time trying 10. Bxd4 instead of lamely trading queens. Keano: I don't think Kramnik's procedural defect is serious. Clearly Kramnik made his protest known already right before the game started, while waiting in front of the toilet!! Anyway a court may be reluctant to decide a case based on technicality instead of substantive merit, though it'll be reluctant to admit this outright for sure.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #365 - 10/03/06 at 11:49:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	John - this may change your legal opinion, according to Malcolm Pein : Quote: Kramnik’s agent had made a procedural blunder and not filed his man’s protest before he defaulted the fifth game. To a non-legal man like myself this would seem to give him no case whatsoever in regards to the the forfeit (forget the moral issues here, I am just trying to get the whole thing straight). What do you think? It would seem that Kramnik must have taken some legal advice before deciding to continue....


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #364 - 10/03/06 at 11:03:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, we’ve discussed that, haven’t we, but I think you are making a common mistake among sports people (as opposed to sports lawyers – which I’m not, by the way) in failing to grasp the significance of the contract in giving a sporting event meaning. To take an obvious example, nothing in the laws of the game fixes the start time. That is determined by the conditions of contest, which are nothing more or less than a contract between the players and the organiser. If the organiser decrees that a game will start at midnight instead of the fixed time, you look at the contract. Has the player contracted to play under these circumstances or not? If the organiser has reserved the right to alter the start time, then the player has to turn up. If the organiser hasn’t, he can forfeit the player all he likes, but the player has contractual remedies. The position here is analogous. The crucial thing is not what the laws of the game might say – you don’t turn up within an hour, that’s it – but whether the organiser was contractually entitled to demand that Kramnik play without a private bathroom. To all appearances the organiser was not so entitled. You say that in fact he was because it must have been intended that the Appeals Committee can alter the agreed conditions of contest. I find that notion far-fetched, but we’ve discussed it. Macropoulos used a different argument: he said that they had not changed the conditions of contest because the contract does not entitle the players to a private bathroom. This argument is very weak – it is clear that everyone thought that the words in question did mean that until it became convenient to Makropoulos to construe them differently. But the point is that to say a loss by forfeit cannot be reversed is nonsense. The question is not one of the laws of the game but of whether FIDE is in breach of its contract to organise the match on certain terms. If they are, it is trite law that Kramnik is entitled to refuse to play.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #363 - 10/03/06 at 10:51:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Come now, Markovich, even you would have to agree that the committee considered a protest which was made out of time, and that they did so without considering written representations from Kramnik’s team (or indeed giving him the opportunity to make any), which they were required to do by the regulations governing the match. ‘Flawed’ is the very mildest term that could be applied to the committee’s decision. I find it a bit silly joining the gutter press in mocking the gravity of the situation. It’s really rather unimaginative not to be able to grasp the psychological significance of a private space in these matches. There’s a reason all top-level matches have had them for a long time. I can understand that in this day and age there might be an argument over whether there should be an unobserved private space, but these things have to be – and were - resolved once and for all before the match. Performance state on these occasions means absolutely everything. There is also psychological significance in maintaining an established routine, established surroundings, that suit you, especially when things are going well.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #362 - 10/03/06 at 10:41:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/03/06 at 10:17:51: Topalov’s better off than that, castlerock: he doesn’t just have draw odds; he has the bonus that even if he loses over the board by a single point, he still has the chance to win in rapids. Although I venture to predict that even if he does he’ll lose in a courtroom (absent the likely compromise of some kind). I certainly hope so. As to the opening, I’d have thought Topalov has to try right-handed, doesn’t he? If he does go d4 though it will be interesting: will we see the Slav again, or will it be something else? Since Kramnik voluntarily refused to sit down and play his opponent in the forfeited game, I think that his claim to the forfeited point will be an exceedingly difficult one to make.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #361 - 10/03/06 at 10:38:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Antillian wrote on 10/02/06 at 19:05:57: I find it interesting that some argue (rightly or wrongly) that Kramnik should have played Game Five under protest rather than to forfeit the game. I am sure most would agree that had he chosen that path then his bathroom would probably have remained closed and the flawed appeals panel would have remained in place. Private bathrooms (the plural is correct) remain closed? Oh horror! The "flawed" appeals committee? As demonstrated by what? The utterly unconscienable bathroom adjustment, I presume? One point you do omit: had Kramnik merely sat down and played, the score at the start of the next game would have been 3-1, not 3-2.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #360 - 10/03/06 at 10:17:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topalov’s better off than that, castlerock: he doesn’t just have draw odds; he has the bonus that even if he loses over the board by a single point, he still has the chance to win in rapids. Although I venture to predict that even if he does he’ll lose in a courtroom (absent the likely compromise of some kind). I certainly hope so. As to the opening, I’d have thought Topalov has to try right-handed, doesn’t he? If he does go d4 though it will be interesting: will we see the Slav again, or will it be something else?


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #359 - 10/03/06 at 09:42:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	It's not immediately obvious where white should look for improvements in that game (9.d5 hardly looks like one) so I don't think we will see the Ne5-slav in the next game. However, as Topalov has no reason to complain about the position in game 2 it wouldn't surprise me if we saw another e3-slav. Yet another rest-day?!

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #358 - 10/03/06 at 09:35:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	You wouldn't happen to have a reference link to that decision? The only mention I've seen is at TWIC: Quote: 'Game 7 Wednesday which will see Topalov as white again, a switch half way through the match that is new for this match.' Though it may not be bad for Kramnik at all, 3 blacks in a row may well be more than compensated by having white in both the first and especially the last game. Though I still don't see why FIDE made this change, they don't play every day anyway, so why would it matter if they had the same amount of whites after one rest day??


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #357 - 10/03/06 at 09:24:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 10/03/06 at 09:17:11: Why is Tölpalov white in both game six and seven?? Was this agreed from the beginning or is it a mistake? - FIDE's site give Kramnik as white in the 7th on the 'Live Game' page and as black on the 'News' page... They were supposed to get same number of white games after rest day. It is part of agreement. They could have scheduled Game 7 with Kramnik as white today and Rest day tomorrow. But it requires negotiation. Even FIDE must have feared negotiation with Topalov-Danailov combine and let the matter pass. Net result is Kramnik has 3 blacks in a row.

	CastleRock
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #356 - 10/03/06 at 09:17:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes. For a change. I had to give in, despite myself. I thought 24.Rad1 was a very good move. But for this move, I thought, Black would have more than equalized and I would have guessed that Kramnik would have gone on to win the game! What with a thorough bind on white’s queenside pawns! But, no annotator seems to subscribe to my view. Perhaps, the advantage I thought of, was imaginary and 24.Rad1 is perhaps, normal at that level. BTW, call me anything you want, these are the types of games I love! For game 7 either a novelty in e3 slav or 1.e4 would be my guess. So tomorrow we have Berlin or Petroff or Slav on cards with only one result. Draw. BTW2, How much the world loves Kramnik’s draws now!

	CastleRock
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #355 - 10/03/06 at 09:17:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Why is Tölpalov white in both game six and seven?? Was this agreed from the beginning or is it a mistake? - FIDE's site give Kramnik as white in the 7th on the 'Live Game' page and as black on the 'News' page...


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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #354 - 10/03/06 at 08:38:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Could we have some chess talk please? Is 8...Bg6 really a good move? According to some on-line sources (http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3393 , http://e3e5.com/eng/petersburg/competitions/article.html?248 , http://chesspro.ru/match/ ) black seems to be fine throughout the game. Marin compares this line with the Berlin Ruy Lopez. Had the same thought myself. What are your opening predictions for the next game? a) Ne5 slav b) e3 slav c) 1.e4 d) other

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #353 - 10/03/06 at 06:56:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Very good point Inn2. It didn’t occur to me. But an “eleven” game match is too short to find holes in the repertoire anyway, unless all the seconds are parapsychologists! Further, three whites in a row is too good a point to poke fun at Mr.Toiletgate. Too bad, if one has to pass it up in the name of objectivity!

	CastleRock
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #352 - 10/03/06 at 06:28:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	I don't think three whites in a row now is such an asset for Topalov. First, he needs to regain objectivity and forget about the scandal, if he wants to calm down in such circumstances it's probably easier to take black and draw. Secondly, after testing both Slav 6. e3 and 6. Ne5, he has just only started to have a general idea of Kramnik's repertoire. Its probably too short period of time to find significant improvements which have not been predicted by Kramnik. I think spreading his Whites out over a few days will give his seconds more time.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #351 - 10/03/06 at 05:47:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topaloo has in effect got himself 1) A World Championship match with 11 games (Six whites – 5 blacks) 2) Draw odds for himself and not for his opponent. 3) Best of all – Three whites in a row! Ominous indeed! I hope he loses even after all these gifts!

	CastleRock
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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #350 - 10/02/06 at 19:05:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	I find it interesting that some argue (rightly or wrongly) that Kramnik should have played Game Five under protest rather than to forfeit the game. I am sure most would agree that had he chosen that path then his bathroom would probably have remained closed and the flawed appeals panel would have remained in place. I doubt Kramnik realistically expects Game Five to ever be played, anymore than the player who sacrifices material for positional gain expects to win back that material by force in the short term. Nonethelss in the long term, the player expects a superior position on the board and eventual victory as a reward for his judgement. Let's hope Kramnik has sufficient compensation for his positional sacrifice.

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #349 - 10/02/06 at 18:32:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/02/06 at 15:04:35: To answer your last point, of course the Appeals Committee can forfeit someone caught cheating and no, of course it doesn’t follow from that that they can adjust the conditions of contest to rule out the possibility. I don’t know what you can have in mind with this comment. My only point here was, (1) I am rather sure the match terms provide for the cash prize as well as for the bathrooms; and (2) I doubt that concerning the cash, the provisions say anything like "unless the committee forfeits you out of the match." Since the committee clearly has the power to do the latter on certain grounds -- thus denying a player his 12-game shot at the prize as provided in the contract terms, this would seem to be an instance where the committee has the implicit right (through the paragraphs I quoted, I assume) to "overturn" the match provisions, simply awarding the prize to the other player with no further play. All right, if it has THAT much power in apparent contravention of the letter of the match terms, doesn't that imply that it has substantial other powers, including, presumably, the power to adjust the bathroom access? Suppose I were playing Topalov, cheated, and was caught -- but before Topalov had built up a winning score. The match committee presumably would forfeit me out of the match. Could I not then say, consistently with everything you've been saying here, "Wait a minute! I have a contract with you that says, best score in 12 games wins the prize. It doesn't say, unless I'm caught cheating. You must let me continue to play for the prize, or else violate your contract."

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Meat Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 184 Joined: 06/27/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #348 - 10/02/06 at 17:54:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Todays game once again gave me the impression that Kramnik is just terribly good at keeping a position lifeless and equal. It's almost impossible to beat him if he continues to play like this. And as this is a site for opening theory: What does today's game mean for the state of the Ne5-Slav? Topalov could not achieve much today, so how does white play for an advantage in this system?


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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #347 - 10/02/06 at 17:27:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	It really has been a year for these kind of shennanigans: first a brilliant World Cup was clouded by a last-minute act of stupidity, and now the chance of some brilliant chess is devolving into ridiculous complaints. At this point, we can only hope that either Kramnik holds on and wins the match in spite of the one point disadvantage or he continues to play well, but Topalov rolls over him and makes up the difference and then some. At this point, it's hard not to be pulling for Kramnik...

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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Mortal Games God Member Offline Posts: 587 Joined: 07/24/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #346 - 10/02/06 at 16:59:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	One more reasonable opinion: Quote: The 12th world champion comments on the situation in the Kramnik-Topalov match [The interview took place before it was known that Kramnik would play game six] Karpov: I would like to say that the problems Illumzhinov is wrestling with are of his own making. This is because in recent times, serving on an appeals committee has become a reward for past services rendered. But in reality, this is a job for specialists, who have proven themselves to be above reproach. In my day, the procedure for appointing members of an appeals committee was as follows: the international federation presented a list of five people, with suitable qualifications; and the participants each listed them in order of preference. Each was given points, and the ones who got the most, went onto the committee. And there were no protests? There were protests. But the Appeals Committee was comprised of people who could be trusted, and were of unimpeachable reputation. And specialists, naturally. There is no need to speak of Azmaiparashvili, and particularly of his reputation. Thanks to the fact that the players were given no say in the matter, you end up with “operators” like him on the committee. Work on this committee is paid, and paid very well, so of course, there are lots of people wanting the job. But only those who are reliable and deserving should get it. It seems clear that Illumzhinov realised that they had messed up, but he was unable to clear up all of the mess. And if Kramnik continues the match, it means that they have simply stolen a point from him. Perhaps Kramnik’s team did not do things quite right? They could have protested before the game. In general, frankly speaking, I do not understand all of these goings-on, but it is perfectly clear that the Bulgarian delegation wanted to disturb Kramnik’s equanimity, and thereby to try to improve their chances. They have succeeded. They got a point illegally. I don’t know how this has affected Kramnik’s morale, but it can hardly have helped. I would say that they used immoral methods. It would perhaps be difficult to sue anyone over this, although I think it could be possible to do so successfully, all the more so considering that Illumzhinov, as President, has the power to overrule the Appeals Committee. If he can overrule their first decision, and dismiss them, then that means he can overrule their subsequent decisions also. If their first decision is illegal, that means so was their second. Illumzhinov said that legally, the score has to be 3:2... He got himself into this mess, and getting out of it is not simple. Of course, whatever you do, one side or the other will be unhappy. If one speaks of the moral side of it, I don’t understand how Topalov can continue to play on with such a burden. I could not. But as far as Topalov is concerned, everything is great – he took a shot and seized his chance! If you were in Kramnik’s place, would you play on? I would not continue the match. Interview by Oleg Pervakov in 64 Review

	It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses. It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #345 - 10/02/06 at 15:20:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/02/06 at 15:05:24: TopNotch - I see what you are saying, but the player awarded the forfeit also has rights. It seems like it is putting him at a disadvantage to firstly award him the game after he has turned up to play and his opponent has stayed in his rest-room, and then to take that point back (which is the only way to "redress the wrong" you talk of). Rowson talked of a "mutual zugzwang" in his other letter - and in this I completely agree with our GM friend. Once the decision is taken to start game 5 I am afraid it is a very tricky road back. My view of natural justice is that the point must stand - if the majority of titled players disagree with me (which of course we dont know for sure) then so be it. I feel that some of them are using this issue as a political whip, I am not fond of FIDE or Kirsan myself (far from it) but I am just trying to interpret the events as I see them with no hidden agendas. Agreed....it is a tricky road back and on reflection I think both players have legitimate recourse against Fide regardless of whatever decision is finally taken regarding game five. Lets hope that the outcome of the match doesn't eventually rest on the verdict surrounding game five. Toppers

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #344 - 10/02/06 at 15:05:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch - I see what you are saying, but the player awarded the forfeit also has rights. It seems like it is putting him at a disadvantage to firstly award him the game after he has turned up to play and his opponent has stayed in his rest-room, and then to take that point back (which is the only way to "redress the wrong" you talk of). Rowson talked of a "mutual zugzwang" in his other letter - and in this I completely agree with our GM friend. Once the decision is taken to start game 5 I am afraid it is a very tricky road back. My view of natural justice is that the point must stand - if the majority of titled players disagree with me (which of course we dont know for sure) then so be it. I feel that some of them are using this issue as a political whip, I am not fond of FIDE or Kirsan myself (far from it) but I am just trying to interpret the events as I see them with no hidden agendas.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #343 - 10/02/06 at 15:04:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	I slightly doubt that – if Topalov had wanted a quick draw I’m not sure he’d have gone 6 Ne5. Surely it’s obvious why people think Topalov’s a scumbag: he basically accused Kramnik of cheating on no evidence at all, the Committee made a decision which in the opinion of most people was substantively ludicrous and which was obviously procedurally hopeless, Kramnik refused to play as anyone would have done, and Topalov wants a free point to continue with his privileges as FIDE’s champion since he sees he’s going to lose over the board. Not much to be proud of there. The contract is of course hopelessly drafted (one wonders whether it was even done by a lawyer: it certainly wasn’t done by a decent UK lawyer, although I know this sort of vagueness is rather more the continental and perhaps also US style). It is clear though that no written representations from Kramnik were considered by the AC and that the contract specifically calls for this. That in itself is a simply outrageous procedural lapse which entitled Kramnik to refuse to play until the matter was properly sorted out. I think we’re going round in circles. The contract does not say what the AC can do and we have to supply that as best we can. But it does say, specifically, that Kramnik shall have a lavatory (his own, barring the absurd Macropoulos quibble), and that once the facilities have been accepted no protest about them shall be entertained. It is inconceivable that the AC was to be entitled to overrule specific provisions of this kind. As usual of course there is no decent source I’ve found which reports simply the procedural course of events. Anyone got one? To answer your last point, of course the Appeals Committee can forfeit someone caught cheating and no, of course it doesn’t follow from that that they can adjust the conditions of contest to rule out the possibility. I don’t know what you can have in mind with this comment.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #342 - 10/02/06 at 14:56:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/02/06 at 14:28:03: I am getting a bit tired of this talk of Topalov as a low life and what have you. We dont know the full story - I agree his manager seems a bit of a snake. Anyway they have shook hands at the beginning of this game, hopefully there can be no more nastiness in the match and we can concentrate on the chess. TopNotch - it is all very well these GM´s think the score is wrong but as I said they are living in a cloud cuckoo land if they think they can turn back time now - the game has already happened. I know John Cox has come on here and said different, but I am a simple man and it just makes no sense - the game has transpired already. I´m not sure Kramnik fully thought through the consequences of his sit-in but we have to all remember to put things into proportion. Topalov is not an evil low-life, Kramnik is not a saint, we are in a match and by some miracle it is going to continue now! It is not about going back in time, its about redressing a major error, should this match somehow become deadlocked, unlikely though it is, I am sure the decision regarding game five will be re-visited and presided over. I am most impressed by the solidarity and clarity of thought that most titled players have exhibited regarding this issue. Perhaps there is hope after all for our royal game. Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #341 - 10/02/06 at 14:46:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 10/02/06 at 14:43:06: I suspect that Topalov is as troubled by recent events as Kramnik is, and didn't want to press for fear of coming unstuck and losing. That would really make him look ridiculous. precisely my sentiments. If Topalov had lost today, he can go shoot himself.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #340 - 10/02/06 at 14:45:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/02/06 at 14:28:03: I am getting a bit tired of this talk of Topalov as a low life and what have you. We dont know the full story - I agree his manager seems a bit of a snake. Anyway they have shook hands at the beginning of this game, hopefully there can be no more nastiness in the match and we can concentrate on the chess. TopNotch - it is all very well these GM´s think the score is wrong but as I said they are living in a cloud cuckoo land if they think they can turn back time now - the game has already happened. I know John Cox has come on here and said different, but I am a simple man and it just makes no sense - the game has transpired already. I´m not sure Kramnik fully thought through the consequences of his sit-in but we have to all remember to put things into proportion. Topalov is not an evil low-life, Kramnik is not a saint, we are in a match and by some miracle it is going to continue now! You are the very voice of reason. Thank you for those remarks.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #339 - 10/02/06 at 14:43:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Fascinating stuff. I hope you're all having fun. See you around...


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #338 - 10/02/06 at 14:43:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	lnn2 wrote on 10/02/06 at 14:37:54: Hello, i did post just now that i think Topalov played a little wimply today. 10. Bxd4 trying to preserve queens would be more combative, but maybe Topalov doesn't want to fight. Kramnik's innovation 8... Bg6 is interesting. He isn't afraid to play with the "bad" bishop on g6.. this is slightly surprising and goes against conventional wisdom. Around move 20 Seirawan on playchess commented White's light squared bishop on c4 was just as bad as Black's Bg6. Quite perceptive. I suspect that Topalov is as troubled by recent events as Kramnik is, and didn't want to press for fear of coming unstuck and losing. That would really make him look ridiculous.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #337 - 10/02/06 at 14:42:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/02/06 at 14:24:26: Willempie: It’s a problem of Topalov’s for this reason: game five is supposed to have taken place. Either it was organised according to the contract, or it wasn’t. It doesn’t matter whether Topalov thinks it was or not: if a court finds it wasn’t then the game doesn’t count contractually for the match. That would mean FIDE was in breach of its contract with Topalov to organise the game validly, but it wouldn’t mean he was entitled to say that actually it did happen validly. That part I understand, though you will get a really weird argument if the forfeit influences the outcome (ie score is equal with it and Topalov then decides to go for a draw). What I dont get is why Topalov should undertake any action. As far as he is concerned there is no breach and no decision has been taken suggesting that the game wasnt under the proper conditions.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #336 - 10/02/06 at 14:39:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/02/06 at 14:09:24: Some blogger does say that on the link you posted, but I can’t follow him at all. The notion that the Appeals Committee can overrule a clear contractual provision which says that certain things cannot be altered just has no conceivable basis to me. To be sure there is jurisdiction to entertain a complaint about Kramnik’s behaviour. But how one leaps from that to deciding that the AC could change the conditions of contest is quite beyond me, especially when the contract specifically says that they cannot. Are you not making the very mistake you decry – saying that you think, and you think most people would think, it was a fair, proportionate, etc, response. Maybe it was, and maybe it wasn’t, but that’s not the point. The point is that it was something the AC were not entitled, indeed explicitly forbidden, by the rules to do, and the result was game five was never organised under the agreed conditions. The expression ‘remedies which indeed alter some of the contract provisions’ speaks for itself to an English lawyer. Nothing (except fraud, illegality, etc) can alter the contractual provisions; all the AC can do is carry them into effect. To be fair, if Kramnik does sue heaven knows what law it will be under, so what I or any other English lawyer would think probably doesn’t matter very much. Here are the provisions of the match terms empowering the arbiters, which I lifted from Susan Polgar's website: 3. 17 Appeals Committee. 3. 17. 1 The President or his Deputy shall be Chairman of the Appeals Committee. There shall be two (2) other members all from different Federations. No member of the Appeals Committee can be from the federation of either player. All protests must be submitted in writing to the Appeals Committee not more than two (2) hours after the relevant playing session, or the particular infringement complained against. The Committee may decide on the following matters: a) an appeal against a decision by an arbiter, b) a protest against a player's behaviour, c) a complaint alleging false interpretation of the regulations, d) a request for the interpretation of specific regulations, e) a protest or complaint against any participant, or f) all other matters which the Committee considers important. If possible, the Committee shall reach a decision not more than two (2) hours after the submission of a protest. The appeals process shall include written representations and a written decision. The Committee shall endeavour to find binding solutions that are within the true spirit of the FIDE motto, Gens Una Sumus. Each protest must be accompanied by a deposit fee of USD 5,000 (five thousand US Dollars) or the equivalent in local currency. If the protest is accepted as logical and reasonable, the fee shall be returned even if the protest will be rejected. The fees not to be returned due to unreasonable protests shall be forfeited to FIDE. The written decision of the Appeals Committee arising from any dispute in respect of these regulations shall be final. Note (b), (e) and most particularly (f). Also note the last sentence. I don't know the Law, still less that of your country, but merely on the basis of reasonableness, it is not obvious from the foregoing what, if any, limitations these provisions place upon the committee's power. Unfortunately I don't have the rest of the document, but I imagine that it says that 12 games will be played and that the player finishing with the most points will receive $500,000. I doubt if it says, "unless forfeited out of the match for cheating," yet I believe it is in the power of the committee to declare that a player caught cheating forfeits his right to further play, the title and the cash prize. THAT is in their power, but not the adjustment of bathroom privileges?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #335 - 10/02/06 at 14:37:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello, i did post just now that i think Topalov played a little wimply today. 10. Bxd4 trying to preserve queens would be more combative, but maybe Topalov doesn't want to fight. Kramnik's innovation 8... Bg6 is interesting. He isn't afraid to play with the "bad" bishop on g6.. this is slightly surprising and goes against conventional wisdom. Around move 20 Seirawan on playchess commented White's light squared bishop on c4 was just as bad as Black's Bg6. Quite perceptive.


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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #334 - 10/02/06 at 14:32:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	I wasn't referring to Topalov. And that's my point. We don't have the full story, so speculation is futile and boring. Maybe we could discuss the game instead? Or is that too outlandish an idea???


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #333 - 10/02/06 at 14:28:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am getting a bit tired of this talk of Topalov as a low life and what have you. We dont know the full story - I agree his manager seems a bit of a snake. Anyway they have shook hands at the beginning of this game, hopefully there can be no more nastiness in the match and we can concentrate on the chess. TopNotch - it is all very well these GM´s think the score is wrong but as I said they are living in a cloud cuckoo land if they think they can turn back time now - the game has already happened. I know John Cox has come on here and said different, but I am a simple man and it just makes no sense - the game has transpired already. I´m not sure Kramnik fully thought through the consequences of his sit-in but we have to all remember to put things into proportion. Topalov is not an evil low-life, Kramnik is not a saint, we are in a match and by some miracle it is going to continue now!


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #332 - 10/02/06 at 14:26:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/02/06 at 07:35:17: My opinion about this whole fiasco is that I have deep sympathy for Kramnik. Nevertheless, despite letters of various GMs who seem not to live in the real world, now that he has forfeited a game, that game cannot be given back. Open Letter of Support to Vladimir Kramnik from Grandmaster Colleagues. October 2, 2006 Dear Vladimir, We are writing as a small group of Grandmasters, but we believe that we represent the views of the vast majority of our colleagues. We simply wanted to let you know that we think you have suffered a gross injustice, and that you have our support. We appreciate that you are now under immense psychological pressure, and that it must be difficult to continue to play well in the context of such blatant bias, unfairness, and hostility. Good luck in the days ahead. If you manage to win in these circumstances you will be a worthy champion indeed. Best wishes, GM Jonathan Rowson (Scotland) GM Peter Heine Nielsen (Denmark) GM Magnus Carlsen (Norway) GM Jan Gustafsson (Germany) GM Tomi Nyback (Finland) GM Luke McShane (England) GM Loek Van Wely (Netherlands) This may not represent the 'Real World' as Keano puts it, but on this matter it is a World I can identify with. The only way for Topalov to recover some semblance of credibility and dignity would be for him and his team to sincerely apologise for their offensive antics. But I think we all know that that is unlikely to happen. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #331 - 10/02/06 at 14:24:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie: It’s a problem of Topalov’s for this reason: game five is supposed to have taken place. Either it was organised according to the contract, or it wasn’t. It doesn’t matter whether Topalov thinks it was or not: if a court finds it wasn’t then the game doesn’t count contractually for the match. That would mean FIDE was in breach of its contract with Topalov to organise the game validly, but it wouldn’t mean he was entitled to say that actually it did happen validly.


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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #330 - 10/02/06 at 14:23:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote author=Markovich link=1148578544/315#329 date=1159798726] "Getting compensation as a spokesman?" "The lower the low-life?" Those remarks are rather pejorative, aren't they, dear chessfriend? Besides being irrelevant? [/quote] Agreed. I'm just getting bored with all this toilet-talk. I don't think the forum has ever been this busy. When will chess be considered interesting enough in and of itself ??? Since Ilyumzhinov has been "elected" once again, we can't expect any of these problems to be resolved in a decent manner, so I choose to simply ignore them. 23 pages??? a bit pathetic no?


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #329 - 10/02/06 at 14:18:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote author=Uberdeker link=1148578544/315#328 date=1159798269][quote author=Markovich link=1148578544/315#322 date=1159797262]I am defending FIDE and the arbiters, not Topalov. [/quote] I hope you are getting compensation as spokesman for the Kalmykian mafia. By the way, interestingly enough, the lower the low-life, the stricter the rules... Anyone care for discussing chess here?[/quote] "Getting compensation as a spokesman?" "The lower the low-life?" Those remarks are rather pejorative, aren't they, dear chessfriend? Besides being irrelevant?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #328 - 10/02/06 at 14:11:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote author=Markovich link=1148578544/315#322 date=1159797262]I am defending FIDE and the arbiters, not Topalov. [/quote] I hope you are getting compensation as spokesman for the Kalmykian mafia. By the way, interestingly enough, the lower the low-life, the stricter the rules... Anyone care for discussing chess here?


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #327 - 10/02/06 at 14:09:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Some blogger does say that on the link you posted, but I can’t follow him at all. The notion that the Appeals Committee can overrule a clear contractual provision which says that certain things cannot be altered just has no conceivable basis to me. To be sure there is jurisdiction to entertain a complaint about Kramnik’s behaviour. But how one leaps from that to deciding that the AC could change the conditions of contest is quite beyond me, especially when the contract specifically says that they cannot. Are you not making the very mistake you decry – saying that you think, and you think most people would think, it was a fair, proportionate, etc, response. Maybe it was, and maybe it wasn’t, but that’s not the point. The point is that it was something the AC were not entitled, indeed explicitly forbidden, by the rules to do, and the result was game five was never organised under the agreed conditions. The expression ‘remedies which indeed alter some of the contract provisions’ speaks for itself to an English lawyer. Nothing (except fraud, illegality, etc) can alter the contractual provisions; all the AC can do is carry them into effect. To be fair, if Kramnik does sue heaven knows what law it will be under, so what I or any other English lawyer would think probably doesn’t matter very much.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #326 - 10/02/06 at 14:07:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:58:27: Markovich wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:44:20: IMJohnCox wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:20:23: Yes, yes, yes, but you're ignoring the point. There was a contract to play a match on certain conditions. Those conditions included a private toilet. When it comes game time, those conditions are not provided, contrary to the contract. Of course the contracting party can refuse to play until they are provided. This is elementary contract law. With respect, I don't think I'm missing the point. The physical match conditions were not the only things that were agreed to. The parties also agreed to be bound by the decisions of the arbiters if certain kinds of complaints were made, among which were complaints regarding the conduct of the players. I am not an attorney, but it seems to me quite reasonable that this envisions remedies that would indeed alter some of the contract provisions. If you go up on the thread you will see that there is someone who is an attorney who thinkds that this is the case. To me it seems particularly relevant that the adjustment to the playing conditions that was called for in the decision is one that is arguably appropriate as a remedy to the complaint. Also, I believe that most reasonable people will say that it is a comparatively minor adjustment. It is not as if the arbiters adjusted the prize money. I read your earlier remark that if the forfeited point becomes decisive, Kramnik should sue under contract law. In spite of my lack of legal expertise, in light of the foregoing points, I very much doubt that he would prevail. You haven't only missed the point but the boat as well. Apparently you consider being accused of cheating a minor issue, but most of us including myself consider defamation of character quite serious and for the appeals committee to rule in the way they did implied that Kramnik was guilty of something which was never proved. Clearly you are quite adamant in your point of view, and based on your post in this thread so far, you seem a prime candidate for Fide office as it is currently run. Topster I don't say that it is not a very disturbing thing to be accused of cheating, or even to have to hear someone entertain the mere possibility that one is cheating. I don't say that Topalov's complaint was not a dirty attempt to unsettle Kramnik -- though I don't say that it was. But clearly, cheating is eminently possible in chess these days. Those at tournaments who have a reasonable suspicion of it should report it, and those at matches who have a reasonable suspicion of it should be entitled to complain about it. I do think that anyone playing in a tournament or a match who spends an inordinate amount of time in the bathroom should be surprised to hear raised the possibility that he's cheating. It is unfair to tag me with the things you don't like about FIDE. My defense of FIDE in this narrow matter does not require my approval of all of its past conduct. I do think that at some point, we must have a FIDE that everyone is willing to respect. Whether we have that now I don't know -- I am prepared to believe that FIDE has grave flaws -- but I do suspect self-interest in some of the complaints against FIDE that I have heard from some professional players.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #325 - 10/02/06 at 14:05:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	According to Kramnik's statement he seems to go for something like the compromise I suggested earlier today. Quote: I inform that I am ready to proceed playing the match by reserving all my rights. My further participation will be subject to the condition to clarify my rights regarding game five at later stage. i.e. Topalov will have to produce 3-0 in the following games to be able to claim the unified title without a long legal debate... Hopefully, that will never be an issue though. Btw, on the offcial page it seems like they did shake hands before game 6 - unless it's an old photo.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #324 - 10/02/06 at 14:04:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:50:33: It’s a three-way contract. FIDE is obliged to organise the match on certain conditions. If it fails to organise one game on those conditions – and to me it seems self-evident that it has – then both players have remedies against FIDE. FIDE’s default, and indeed its mistaken impression that it has properly organised game five, cannot give Topalov any rights against Kramnik. It might give him some claim in damages against FIDE – extra expenses and so on – but assuming that game five was not organised in accordance with the conditions of contest, that’s an end of the matter. I dont get the part where this is a problem of Topalov. If he doesnt see a problem with the contract and even if he does, but feels it doesnt really matter, where is it thate Kramnik's problem is his concern? Quote: Funnily enough, I don’t think corruption has come into it for once. Judging by Macropoulos’ own comments, the guy was trying to do his best and is simply out of his depth. No surprise there. That's my impression as well. Quote: Total draw now, but it will be interesting to see who offers and when. I imagine Kramnik's thoughts are already turning to the Champions League. Big game for him - very easy hold. Though I didnt really get the 12th move of white. I dont have your book at the ready, but I dont see why white should comply with this exchange.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #323 - 10/02/06 at 14:01:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	I thought Topa should have tried to avoid the exchange of queens with 10. Bxd4 (instead of 10 Qxd4) if he wanted more. It looks like he needs a break today too.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #322 - 10/02/06 at 13:58:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:44:20: IMJohnCox wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:20:23: Yes, yes, yes, but you're ignoring the point. There was a contract to play a match on certain conditions. Those conditions included a private toilet. When it comes game time, those conditions are not provided, contrary to the contract. Of course the contracting party can refuse to play until they are provided. This is elementary contract law. With respect, I don't think I'm missing the point. The physical match conditions were not the only things that were agreed to. The parties also agreed to be bound by the decisions of the arbiters if certain kinds of complaints were made, among which were complaints regarding the conduct of the players. I am not an attorney, but it seems to me quite reasonable that this envisions remedies that would indeed alter some of the contract provisions. If you go up on the thread you will see that there is someone who is an attorney who thinkds that this is the case. To me it seems particularly relevant that the adjustment to the playing conditions that was called for in the decision is one that is arguably appropriate as a remedy to the complaint. Also, I believe that most reasonable people will say that it is a comparatively minor adjustment. It is not as if the arbiters adjusted the prize money. I read your earlier remark that if the forfeited point becomes decisive, Kramnik should sue under contract law. In spite of my lack of legal expertise, in light of the foregoing points, I very much doubt that he would prevail. You haven't only missed the point but the boat as well. Apparently you consider being accused of cheating a minor issue, but most of us including myself consider defamation of character quite serious and for the appeals committee to rule in the way they did implied that Kramnik was guilty of something which was never proved. Clearly you are quite adamant in your point of view, and based on your posts in this thread so far, you seem a prime candidate for Fide office as it is currently run. Topster

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #321 - 10/02/06 at 13:54:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:44:29: Markovich...the rule of law was made to serve man and not the other way round, and your view that a ruling once made is irreversible and binding no matter how unlawful it is is quite remarkable. Such a philosophy only encourages corruption, fortunately your point of view is not shared by many. Toppy I very much respect this view, and I uphold it myself when the law is both transparently unjust and gravely injurious; here in the U.S. we had a law that citizens of free states (states where slavery was illegal) had to do their best to help return escaped slaves to their "rightful" "owners" in slave states. That is the kind of law, disobedience to which I can support. But even if I accepted that the arbiters ruling in Elista were transparently unjust, and I do not, I could not condone anyone's breaking the match over it because it is not gravely injurious. It concerns indeed such a trivial matter that, I would say, it was irresponsible of Kramnik to threaten breaking the match over it. Please understand that I do not say that Topalov is a good guy. I am defending FIDE and the arbiters, not Topalov. It does not concern me in the slightest, by the way, that my views are in a minority, since that is entirely irrelevant to their correctness.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #320 - 10/02/06 at 13:51:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Game 6 is a draw (don't know if this is official yet, but there is no doubt).

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #319 - 10/02/06 at 13:50:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	It’s a three-way contract. FIDE is obliged to organise the match on certain conditions. If it fails to organise one game on those conditions – and to me it seems self-evident that it has – then both players have remedies against FIDE. FIDE’s default, and indeed its mistaken impression that it has properly organised game five, cannot give Topalov any rights against Kramnik. It might give him some claim in damages against FIDE – extra expenses and so on – but assuming that game five was not organised in accordance with the conditions of contest, that’s an end of the matter. Funnily enough, I don’t think corruption has come into it for once. Judging by Macropoulos’ own comments, the guy was trying to do his best and is simply out of his depth. No surprise there. Total draw now, but it will be interesting to see who offers and when. I imagine Kramnik's thoughts are already turning to the Champions League. Big game for him - very easy hold.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #318 - 10/02/06 at 13:49:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Draw agreed - Topalov never seemed to have much. Good game by Kramnik. The pressure is still very much on Topalov, but now maybe Kramnik will press a bit harder to win with White!?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #317 - 10/02/06 at 13:49:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hmm a bishop endgame. Looks rather drawish

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #316 - 10/02/06 at 13:44:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 10/02/06 at 12:59:14: Mortal Games wrote on 10/01/06 at 22:01:17: Quote: So, if it appears that if there IS to be a match, forfeit loss will stand. That seems quite reasonable to me. If you refuse to play, you forfeit. It remains to be seen if the match will indeed resule under these conditions. Reasonable? Only for an alien no? If Topalov is a man of honour, he will never accept that a match will continue 3-2 but unfortunately I have doubts, because the mafia that surrounds him are looking now for the millions and for the next match with Radjabov that Topalov can loose if he looses this match. Kirsan acts like a saint but always in Topalov favor. The strategy of Topalov and his mafia outside the board was very good! Congratulations! He found a way to skip away from this lost match and put suspicions on Kramnik and Topalov become the victim of the situation. Just perfect! And do not forgett about who was on that mafia commite- one manager of Radjabov! Here are some opinions from all over the world: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3386 maybe this can clean the dust from the eyes of the few who still defend Topalov for dubious reasons. Why? The time for the game was at hand, the clock was started, and Kramnik never touched a piece. The clock ran out. In my book, that's a forfeit. My position would be the same if Topalov had been the one refusing to play. I do not defend Topalov at all; certainly not "for dubious reasons." I defend the principle that sporting matches must be goverened by rule, and that the decisions of duly appointed arbiters must be final. If that is "junk" as my dear friend TopNotch alleges, then not only this match, but world chess itself is in the toilet. Markovich...the rule of law was made to serve man and not the other way round, and your view that a ruling once made is irreversible and binding no matter how unlawful it is is quite remarkable. Such a philosophy only encourages corruption, fortunately your point of view is not shared by many. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #315 - 10/02/06 at 13:44:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:20:23: Yes, yes, yes, but you're ignoring the point. There was a contract to play a match on certain conditions. Those conditions included a private toilet. When it comes game time, those conditions are not provided, contrary to the contract. Of course the contracting party can refuse to play until they are provided. This is elementary contract law. With respect, I don't think I'm missing the point. The physical match conditions were not the only things that were agreed to. The parties also agreed to be bound by the decisions of the arbiters if certain kinds of complaints were made, among which were complaints regarding the conduct of the players. I am not an attorney, but it seems to me quite reasonable that this envisions remedies that would indeed alter some of the contract provisions. If you go up on the thread you will see that there is someone who is an attorney who thinkds that this is the case. To me it seems particularly relevant that the adjustment to the playing conditions that was called for in the decision is one that is arguably appropriate as a remedy to the complaint. Also, I believe that most reasonable people will say that it is a comparatively minor adjustment. It is not as if the arbiters adjusted the prize money. I read your earlier remark that if the forfeited point becomes decisive, Kramnik should sue under contract law. In spite of my lack of legal expertise, in light of the foregoing points, I very much doubt that he would prevail.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #314 - 10/02/06 at 13:40:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:35:16: if Kramnik wins he will be the remembered as the guy who would sink the match over a toilet. Not even Karpov and Korchnoi went this far. Nonsense! Kramnik allowed Topalov to keep the unearned forfeit point and played on. The only player who has dishonored himself in this match (and in a BIG way) is Topalov.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #313 - 10/02/06 at 13:35:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:30:51: 24.Rad1!? could there be some life here... I think White still has a slight edge, but Kramnik should have no problem holding the position — and if Topalov presses too hard he might even "give back" his free point (I hope, but don't really expect). I think a draw is likely, even if Kamnik might have to work for it.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #312 - 10/02/06 at 13:35:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:20:23: Yes, yes, yes, but you're ignoring the point. There was a contract to play a match on certain conditions. Those conditions included a private toilet. When it comes game time, those conditions are not provided, contrary to the contract. Of course the contracting party can refuse to play until they are provided. This is elementary contract law. The question is only over whether the contract provides a right to a private toilet. According to Macropoulos, it says that each player shall be provided witha restroom and toilet. Recognising the force of the above point, Macropoulos justifies his decision by saying that a shared toilet is good enough. This is obviously not what the contract intended. I would be interested to know the last time there was a shared toilet at a world championship match - certainly not since 1986, I'd wager. If there was any doubt about that clause 3.18.3 removes it. This says that once the Committee has inspected and approved the facilities and the players have agreed to them, no protest about them shall be entertained. The purpose of this clause was exactly to prevent this sort of Fischer-style nonsense. By the way, disputes at least as silly as this are fairly common in bridge. Curiously, there too it is the Americans who have a history of rightly or wrongly accusing other nations of cheating - most famously in the Reese/Schapiro case in the sixties, where (oh, karma, karma), the accusers (who had clearly fabricated at least some of their evidence) were later banned for cheating by their own federation. I see your points. The only problem as I see it is that Kramnik has a conflict with the people in charge not with Topalov (apart of course that they wont ecome best friends). So when the game was scheduled Topalov just "played". You can argue the legality of the appeal decision (I am not that well versed in international law), but the fact is that there was a decision and that the game was scheduled as normal. Now Kramnik may or may not have an excellent legal point that game 5 should have been postponed, but the fact is that this didnt happen. So from Topalov's legal viewpoint I doubt any judicial body could maintain the view that the game should not count as he abided by all the rules. Of course both players behaved little better than Mike Tyson, when iso thinking forward, dug into their trenches endangering the match. Now imo they ruined whatever outcome beforehand. If Topalov wins people will think he unbalanced Kramnik and if Kramnik wins he will be the remembered as the guy who would sink the match over a toilet. Not even Karpov and Korchnoi went this far.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #311 - 10/02/06 at 13:30:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	24.Rad1!? could there be some life here...


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #310 - 10/02/06 at 13:22:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, exactly - obviously one or two of Fischer's efforts would have rivalled it, but one feels he couldn't help himself. Looks like a draw today. Rather dull too, but of course that will have been Kramnik's fault.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #309 - 10/02/06 at 13:21:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 10/02/06 at 13:14:17: At least Fischer had an excuse for his behaviour, he was insane. Toppy Is Topalov psychologically stable? Methinks there may be eveidence which hints to the contrary.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #308 - 10/02/06 at 13:20:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, yes, yes, but you're ignoring the point. There was a contract to play a match on certain conditions. Those conditions included a private toilet. When it comes game time, those conditions are not provided, contrary to the contract. Of course the contracting party can refuse to play until they are provided. This is elementary contract law. The question is only over whether the contract provides a right to a private toilet. According to Macropoulos, it says that each player shall be provided witha restroom and toilet. Recognising the force of the above point, Macropoulos justifies his decision by saying that a shared toilet is good enough. This is obviously not what the contract intended. I would be interested to know the last time there was a shared toilet at a world championship match - certainly not since 1986, I'd wager. If there was any doubt about that clause 3.18.3 removes it. This says that once the Committee has inspected and approved the facilities and the players have agreed to them, no protest about them shall be entertained. The purpose of this clause was exactly to prevent this sort of Fischer-style nonsense. By the way, disputes at least as silly as this are fairly common in bridge. Curiously, there too it is the Americans who have a history of rightly or wrongly accusing other nations of cheating - most famously in the Reese/Schapiro case in the sixties, where (oh, karma, karma), the accusers (who had clearly fabricated at least some of their evidence) were later banned for cheating by their own federation.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #307 - 10/02/06 at 13:19:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm happy to see game 6 started and that Kraminik has near universal support and Topalov near univeral condemnation from virtually everyone with any status in the chess world (as well as from the vast majority of the rest of us). I'd also be happy to see Topalov start losing invitations to major tournaments, but of course this will not happen. For the moment I will be glad to see Topalov suffer a total meltdown in the match, which may well have a chance of happening. In game 6, I think Topalov maybe had a bit of an edge early but this edge appears to have vanished. After a draw (loss would be even nicer) in game 6, what's next for the Topalov/Dainilov chimera?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #306 - 10/02/06 at 13:14:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	At least Fischer had an excuse for his behaviour, he was insane. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #305 - 10/02/06 at 12:59:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Mortal Games wrote on 10/01/06 at 22:01:17: Quote: So, if it appears that if there IS to be a match, forfeit loss will stand. That seems quite reasonable to me. If you refuse to play, you forfeit. It remains to be seen if the match will indeed resule under these conditions. Reasonable? Only for an alien no? If Topalov is a man of honour, he will never accept that a match will continue 3-2 but unfortunately I have doubts, because the mafia that surrounds him are looking now for the millions and for the next match with Radjabov that Topalov can loose if he looses this match. Kirsan acts like a saint but always in Topalov favor. The strategy of Topalov and his mafia outside the board was very good! Congratulations! He found a way to skip away from this lost match and put suspicions on Kramnik and Topalov become the victim of the situation. Just perfect! And do not forgett about who was on that mafia commite- one manager of Radjabov! Here are some opinions from all over the world: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3386 maybe this can clean the dust from the eyes of the few who still defend Topalov for dubious reasons. Why? The time for the game was at hand, the clock was started, and Kramnik never touched a piece. The clock ran out. In my book, that's a forfeit. My position would be the same if Topalov had been the one refusing to play. I do not defend Topalov at all; certainly not "for dubious reasons." I defend the principle that sporting matches must be goverened by rule, and that the decisions of duly appointed arbiters must be final. If that is "junk" as my dear friend TopNotch alleges, then not only this match, but world chess itself is in the toilet. For a great many here, the dominant consideration seems to be the alleged heinousness of Topalov's complaint. Well, perhaps it is heinous; that is something upon which I do not comment, because the procedures for dealing with complaints can hardly take cognizance of speculations of motive. The only valid questions for the arbiters (and for those who would put themselves in their place) are, does the complaint have a reasonable basis, and does it require a remedy. Personally as I have said, I think there is indeed some reason to suspect that a chess player who makes an unusual number of trips to the bathroom during his games may be cheating. I do not allege that Kramnik was cheating, only that Topalov's complaint -- however heinous and worthy of contempt it may or may not be -- had a reasonable basis. Now as to the remedy. Many here have emphasized that it was not within the power of the arbiters to alter the match terms. Yet there are those, some with legal expertise, who have read the relevant documents and concluded otherwise. Whatever one may think on this point, it is not as if reasonable people cannot disagree about it. It is not as if the decision of the arbiters was, on its very face and beyond question, a gross offense either to common decency or the literal match terms. I doubt there is anyone who will argue the contrary AND say honestly that he is not among those who condemns Topalov for making a heinous complaint. I think indeed that there are many here who have conceived an utter contempt for Topalov for his supposedly foul complaint, and for whom this contempt precludes objective reasoning on these other, much more relevant, points. It is quite amazing to me that my views are in such a minority here, but I attribute this mostly to hysterical resentment of Topalov's supposedly underhanded blow. One of the things that reinforces my view in that regard is that there is so much hair-tearing over such a trivial question as bathroom privileges. Finally I will avow that I never cared in the slightest which one of these players won this match; and further that if Topalov were the one who had refused to play rather than recognize the authority of the arbiters, I would be just as condemning of him as I am of Kramnik. I hope the match continues. If it does, it should be with a score of 3-2 and with Topalov as White.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #304 - 10/02/06 at 12:37:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	I will be surprised if Kramnik doesn't go to court if the missing game proves decisive. Let's hope it doesn't. I really think Topalov has shown himself the biggest scumbag in world championship history. I've been mentally reviewing some of the efforts we've seen, and I'm not sure even Petrosian or Alekhine can challenge him. A propos of this drivel from Danailov about Kramnik insulting Topalov by talking about the Champions League, anyone remember Tal talking about his famous Bxf6 (or do I mean f4?) against Botvinnik? 'Strange as it may sound, during such an important game I began to be troubled by the question, will my wife and I manage to get to the theatre on time?'. I don't remember Botters bleating about this showing arrogance.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #303 - 10/02/06 at 12:30:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 10/02/06 at 11:57:43: Willempie wrote on 10/02/06 at 11:12:13: Wasnt Keene his second? Donner didnt think much of Korchnoi's English seconds either (chesswise excellent otherwise bad). I saw a review of Donner's The King which made me tempted to get it, and I'll probably will if the book ever cross my path. But my general impression was that Donner didn't think much of anyone, including himself... It is mainly dutchmen which earn his scorn Quote: Btw, sure Keene was VK's second but at least he was there at the time and not in Dutchland. Very true, but that doesnt make it more reliable. I am fairly sure we will get wildly differing descriptions from the insiders about toiletgate. Quote: Besides, in an interview after the match Spassky blamed his loss in the last game on the arbiter(!) since he 1) was looking at him during the match and 2) he conveyed a draw offer from VK... Yep chessplayers are weird Quote: Anyway, nice to see that Kramnik-Tölpalov is on again - maybe they'll even manage to produce a good game eventually! Looks a bit boring atm

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #302 - 10/02/06 at 12:29:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well John I am not a legal expert but as I said before in practical terms Kramnik has little choice since who wants to withdraw from a match and enter legal wranglings? In any case he has left the legal option open by saying he wants his rights regarding game 5 "clarified later". To a non legal man like me I would have thought he had little chance of getting anything out of it, but if you say different... As it stands though, remember he is still winning the match! This psychological pressure lark is a nice card if he wants to play it, but the reality is they are both under great psychological pressure - Topalov moreso because he must come from behind. If Kramnik draws todays game it should steady things nicely for him and he can regroup - in his own mind he´ll have already written the forfeited game off as he has to in order to play his best (later if things go wrong his team can come back to that).


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #301 - 10/02/06 at 12:04:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Good grief. I am amazed. If Kramnik can pull this off from here after the way he's been shat upon, it will be a staggering achievement. Now I've found it, I don't see there's much scope for argument about the contract. Each player is entitled to a restroom and toilet (obviously their own, not a common one), and that's that. As they have been at world championships for at least 20 years. Nothing gives the Appeal Committee any right to change that. And if there was any doubt, 3.18.3 removes it. Once the Committee has approved the tournament hall and facilities, no protest about them shall be accepted. That blog link to the chap arguing that the committee can change the facilities to regulate behaviour - well frankly I think the guy is smoking dope. And once you accept that the contract is being violated of course Kramnik is entitled to refuse to play. And Topalov - honestly, I can't find the words. It would be wonderful if Corus and the rest ceased to invite him, though they won't, of course.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #300 - 10/02/06 at 11:57:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 10/02/06 at 11:12:13: Wasnt Keene his second? Donner didnt think much of Korchnoi's English seconds either (chesswise excellent otherwise bad). I saw a review of Donner's The King which made me tempted to get it, and I'll probably will if the book ever cross my path. But my general impression was that Donner didn't think much of anyone, including himself... Btw, sure Keene was VK's second but at least he was there at the time and not in Dutchland. Besides, in an interview after the match Spassky blamed his loss in the last game on the arbiter(!) since he 1) was looking at him during the match and 2) he conveyed a draw offer from VK... Anyway, nice to see that Kramnik-Tölpalov is on again - maybe they'll even manage to produce a good game eventually!


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #299 - 10/02/06 at 11:39:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 10/02/06 at 11:02:17: The game has started! Did they shake hands? I don't know about that. But I heard, for a fee of $100000, Topalov kindly consented to annotate game 5 for informator. NIC missed the bus.

	CastleRock
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #298 - 10/02/06 at 11:12:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 10/02/06 at 10:38:29: Willempie wrote on 10/02/06 at 10:07:46: TalJechin wrote on 10/02/06 at 09:57:55: Quote: Opinion on Spassky's behaviour is more divided. Eg Donner claims it having to with Spassky trying to regain his form and getting away from Korchnoi's presence (there are various instances in which a player appears "hypnotised" by his opponent). Well, something like that was Spassky's official excuse (if you buy it is another matter - the effect was that Kortchnoi played worse (blundering away his queen like a beginner e.g. in game 13 I think) not Spassky playing better...) - still it doesn't explain why he'd strut around on the scene in goggles and/or with big silvery shades on etc, exciting the audience while Kortchnoi was thinking... While I love Korchnoi's match attitude, he always seems to get himself into trouble when everything is going smoothly. With Spassky the trouble started when the match was all but over, similar with Petrosjan. Plus Spassky's behaviour usually has been quite examplary (ie I would have quit the match against Fischer on numerous occasions) and when someone like Donner who knows both of them thinks Spassky didnt do it to annoy Korchnoi, I have little reason to doubt that. Well, the problems began at game ten, when Kortchnoi became 5-0 up, and then Spassky went on to win 4 in a row... Spassky may not have been himself - as he probably realised what was left of his chess career was about to be snuffed out, and the soviet athorities probably pressured him to get ugly as VK had defected only a year earlier and VK had already eliminated Polugajevskij and Petrosian in the cycle. I haven't seen Donner's impressions of what happened but I have Keene's book on the match - which among other things contains the Arbiter's Report, which speaks for itself by just giving the facts without interpretation. Wasnt Keene his second? Donner didnt think much of Korchnoi's English seconds either (chesswise excellent otherwise bad).

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #297 - 10/02/06 at 11:03:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	The game is on - a Slav, back to chess, at last! A miracle...


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #296 - 10/02/06 at 11:02:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	The game has started! Did they shake hands? Quote: Open Letter of Support to Vladimir Kramnik from Grandmaster Colleagues. October 2, 2006 Dear Vladimir, We are writing as a small group of Grandmasters, but we believe that we represent the views of the vast majority of our colleagues. We simply wanted to let you know that we think you have suffered a gross injustice, and that you have our support. We appreciate that you are now under immense psychological pressure, and that it must be difficult to continue to play well in the context of such blatant bias, unfairness, and hostility. Good luck in the days ahead. If you manage to win in these circumstances you will be a worthy champion indeed. Best wishes, GM Jonathan Rowson (Scotland) GM Peter Heine Nielsen (Denmark) GM Magnus Carlsen (Norway) GM Jan Gustafsson (Germany) GM Tomi Nyback (Finland) GM Luke McShane (England) GM Loek Van Wely (Netherlands)

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #295 - 10/02/06 at 10:51:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: To FIDE President H.E. Kirsan Iljumshinov To WCC Appeals Committee Official statement and protest on the decision made by FIDE On 2 October 2006 my manager received the following decision from FIDE: “Tomorrow, 2 October 2006, at 15.00, the 6th Game of the World Chess Championship Match a Topalov-Kramnik with the score 3:2 in favour of Kramnik, will take place.” Based on this decision I make the following statement: 1. I inform that I am ready to proceed playing the match by reserving all my rights. My further participation will be subject to the condition to clarify my rights regarding game 5 at later stage. 2. I do not agree with the decision made by FIDE and I formally protest against it. The decisions made on my requests, especially - the resignation of the Appeals Committee - open the toilets to the restrooms again are chrystal clear admissions of FIDE of having taken a false decision. Logically FIDE admits herewith that it was a mistake to start game 5 by violating the rules and regulations of the competition and by changing the agreed playing rules and conditions during the match without my approval. 3. I deeply regret the unsportsmanlike and unequaled behaviour of my opponent whom FIDE donated a victory outside of the board by using dirty tricks. 4. High level functionaries inside FIDE once again were making the professional part of the chess world a disgraceful playground of their own interests. I strongly believe and hope that the course of these events made it obvious to everyone that drastic changes with regard to the professional management structures inside FIDE are evident. By deciding just a couple of hours ago I had to assess between my personal interests and the interests of the entire chess world. It is very difficult to play under these circumstances. But I came to the conclusion to proceed under protest because I do not want to disappoint the overwhelming majority of the chess fans which are hoping for the unification since so many years. I also had in mind the people of Kalmykia which are doing their utmost to organize this match on the highest level possible. Last but not least I would like to thank very much for all the support I experienced during these days. Elista, 2 October 2006 Vladimir Kramnik Classical World Chess Champion We have a chess match


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #294 - 10/02/06 at 10:48:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	15 minutes from the start of the match and the world awaits with bated breath now... Kirsan's latest statement says "I think that Kramnik and Topalov should put their ambitions aside and sit down to the chess board, in order to prove who is stronger, and who is more worthy to bear the title of the Absolute World Chess Champion!" This statement is wholly inconsistent with his decision on 3-2, but is not the first time he's contradicted himself. A few days ago he says the issue is not legal but political, but then we now know he consults his lawyers!


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #293 - 10/02/06 at 10:38:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 10/02/06 at 10:07:46: TalJechin wrote on 10/02/06 at 09:57:55: Quote: Opinion on Spassky's behaviour is more divided. Eg Donner claims it having to with Spassky trying to regain his form and getting away from Korchnoi's presence (there are various instances in which a player appears "hypnotised" by his opponent). Well, something like that was Spassky's official excuse (if you buy it is another matter - the effect was that Kortchnoi played worse (blundering away his queen like a beginner e.g. in game 13 I think) not Spassky playing better...) - still it doesn't explain why he'd strut around on the scene in goggles and/or with big silvery shades on etc, exciting the audience while Kortchnoi was thinking... While I love Korchnoi's match attitude, he always seems to get himself into trouble when everything is going smoothly. With Spassky the trouble started when the match was all but over, similar with Petrosjan. Plus Spassky's behaviour usually has been quite examplary (ie I would have quit the match against Fischer on numerous occasions) and when someone like Donner who knows both of them thinks Spassky didnt do it to annoy Korchnoi, I have little reason to doubt that. Well, the problems began at game ten, when Kortchnoi became 5-0 up, and then Spassky went on to win 4 in a row... Spassky may not have been himself - as he probably realised what was left of his chess career was about to be snuffed out, and the soviet athorities probably pressured him to get ugly as VK had defected only a year earlier and VK had already eliminated Polugajevskij and Petrosian in the cycle. I haven't seen Donner's impressions of what happened but I have Keene's book on the match - which among other things contains the Arbiter's Report, which speaks for itself by just giving the facts without interpretation.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #292 - 10/02/06 at 10:33:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Within the next half hour we will know if the match continues or ... eeh.. goes down the drain.. Viking: I picked it up on ICC, might of course just be rumours. Anyway, now we know that the starting-point of todays 'game' will be 3-2.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #291 - 10/02/06 at 10:24:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	On a minor point of order - havent they got the colours the wrong way around on the TWIC site? Topalov is due White in game six correct? Interesting to see what Kramnik does now - he has two choices: 1) withdraw from the match and investigate legal option (everything here depends on his case so he would have to be pretty sure, and it looks very murky to me since in the meantime Topalov is champ) 2) Accept that he has blown away a point, and continue the match now that he has his beloved toilet and a new appeals committee. From a practical point of view (and monetary one as well we presume) it seems he has to go for number 2


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #290 - 10/02/06 at 10:07:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 10/02/06 at 09:57:55: Quote: Opinion on Spassky's behaviour is more divided. Eg Donner claims it having to with Spassky trying to regain his form and getting away from Korchnoi's presence (there are various instances in which a player appears "hypnotised" by his opponent). Well, something like that was Spassky's official excuse (if you buy it is another matter - the effect was that Kortchnoi played worse (blundering away his queen like a beginner e.g. in game 13 I think) not Spassky playing better...) - still it doesn't explain why he'd strut around on the scene in goggles and/or with big silvery shades on etc, exciting the audience while Kortchnoi was thinking... While I love Korchnoi's match attitude, he always seems to get himself into trouble when everything is going smoothly. With Spassky the trouble started when the match was all but over, similar with Petrosjan. Plus Spassky's behaviour usually has been quite examplary (ie I would have quit the match against Fischer on numerous occasions) and when someone like Donner who knows both of them thinks Spassky didnt do it to annoy Korchnoi, I have little reason to doubt that.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Viking God Member Offline Posts: 673 Location: Norway Joined: 10/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #289 - 10/02/06 at 10:07:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 10/02/06 at 08:11:48: From what I hear Topalov is willing to concede 3-1 in exchange for the match going 14 games instead of 12.. Where have u "heard" that this is an option?


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #288 - 10/02/06 at 09:57:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Opinion on Spassky's behaviour is more divided. Eg Donner claims it having to with Spassky trying to regain his form and getting away from Korchnoi's presence (there are various instances in which a player appears "hypnotised" by his opponent). Well, something like that was Spassky's official excuse (if you buy it is another matter - the effect was that Kortchnoi played worse (blundering away his queen like a beginner e.g. in game 13 I think) not Spassky playing better...) - still it doesn't explain why he'd strut around on the scene in goggles and/or with big silvery shades on etc, exciting the audience while Kortchnoi was thinking...


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #287 - 10/02/06 at 09:09:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 10/02/06 at 08:45:30: For perhaps the first time ever, I completely agree with Top. And if Tölpalov wins by default I hope he won't be invited to any major events for a long time to come. At least it may not be easy to find any sponsors for an event with him in it... (except perhaps for companies producing a certain sanitary equipment. And being the man who gave the toilet a face could be proper punishment!) He is already contracted for Corus and I must say I am looking forward to see him PLAY there. Quote: On the topic of matches with a forfeit, the closest similarity would probably be Spassky-Kortchnoi in '77. Where Spassky forfeited a game but Kortchnoi proved he was the bigger man by allowing the game to be replayed. There were other similarities as well, Viktor had a big lead and Boris tried all kinds of clownery and psych-attempts to get closer - which payed off as he almost equalised. Opinion on Spassky's behaviour is more divided. Eg Donner claims it having to with Spassky trying to regain his form and getting away from Korchnoi's presence (there are various instances in which a player appears "hypnotised" by his opponent). Quote: Anyway, I haven't seen anything about 3-1 for 14 games - the only official news state that the 6th game will be played today (i.e. 3-2), and then I suppose Kramnik will go home. Perhaps a compromise could be to postpone the decision of game 5 - and after 11 games played, it could be played if it matters or just given to Tölpalov if Kramnik still has a 2 point lead. We'll see. And then the next problem will occur a few days later...

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #286 - 10/02/06 at 08:47:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie - I completely agree. We have had both players issue statements to the effect of "I may not continue in this match unless such and such happens". There have been mistakes made by all parties in this in my opinion - first the Topalov complaint and threat to pull out, then the appeals committee botching things up, then Kramnik deciding to do a sit in in his rest room and saying he will not continue!. Anyway, for future matches there should be a specific clause: "No player may threaten to withdraw from the match unless certain demands of his are met". Or something to this effect. Incidentally - if it is true that Kramnik can still get 3-1 in a 14 game match then I think he would be mad not to jump at this, otherwise the reality is he has just given up a full point for nothing.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #285 - 10/02/06 at 08:45:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 10/02/06 at 07:16:32: Kramnik is already champion in my eyes, and as much as I wanted Topalov to win I have now lost all respect for him. For perhaps the first time ever, I completely agree with Top. And if Tölpalov wins by default I hope he won't be invited to any major events for a long time to come. At least it may not be easy to find any sponsors for an event with him in it... (except perhaps for companies producing a certain sanitary equipment. And being the man who gave the toilet a face could be proper punishment!) On the topic of matches with a forfeit, the closest similarity would probably be Spassky-Kortchnoi in '77. Where Spassky forfeited a game but Kortchnoi proved he was the bigger man by allowing the game to be replayed. There were other similarities as well, Viktor had a big lead and Boris tried all kinds of clownery and psych-attempts to get closer - which payed off as he almost equalised. Anyway, I haven't seen anything about 3-1 for 14 games - the only official news state that the 6th game will be played today (i.e. 3-2), and then I suppose Kramnik will go home. Perhaps a compromise could be to postpone the decision of game 5 - and after 11 games played, it could be played if it matters or just given to Tölpalov if Kramnik still has a 2 point lead.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #284 - 10/02/06 at 08:13:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 10/02/06 at 07:55:18: Fischer's case keeps being cited as a comparison but in reality the circumstances were far different with the only common link being that there was a forfeit involved. Plus it had a rather averse effect on Spassky. I doubt this will happen to Topalov. Quote: Rumor has it Topalov's team is now suggesting a longer match in exchange for a 3-1 start. Abandonment or extension was probably what Topalov's team had in mind when filing the complaint in the first place. Ok....enough conjecture we will know in a few hours if we have a match or not. Stay tuned as the plot thickens. Topster I have no clue anymore on what will happen and despite me finding FIDE a guilty part I still feel the players themselves are mostly to blame for this mess. It's one thing to play psychological warfare, it is another to endanger the whole match for it. Even Korchnoi never let that happen in any of his matches and he has protested against about anything.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #283 - 10/02/06 at 08:11:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	From what I hear Topalov is willing to concede 3-1 in exchange for the match going 14 games instead of 12. Sounds like a reasonable deal to me.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #282 - 10/02/06 at 08:02:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	I doubt Kramnik will go for the longer match, although it is tricky - an extra point helps! What surprises me is that a 12 game match was agreed by both parties in the first place - I mentioned ages ago the posibility of a nervy start (as has happened) and then the fact there is not enough time to settle into the match. In my opinion Danailov did not do Topalov any favours agreeing to a 12 game match in the first place - Topalov is well known for his stamina and for his ability to finish strongly, a 12 game match was always going to favour Kramnik. It would amaze me though, if somehow the length of the match was now changed in the midst of this fiasco.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #281 - 10/02/06 at 07:55:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Fischer's case keeps being cited as a comparison but in reality the circumstances were far different with the only common link being that there was a forfeit involved. Rumor has it Topalov's team is now suggesting a longer match in exchange for a 3-1 restart. Abandonment or extension was probably what Topalov's team had in mind when filing the complaint in the first place. Ok....enough conjecture we will know in a few hours if we have a match or not. Stay tuned as the plot thickens. Topster
	« Last Edit: 10/02/06 at 12:53:49 by TopNotch »
	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #280 - 10/02/06 at 07:35:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	My opinion about this whole fiasco is that I have deep sympathy for Kramnik. Nevertheless, despite letters of various GMs who seem not to live in the real world, now that he has forfeited a game, that game cannot be given back. Morally Kramnik is on high ground, but the simple fact is he took a decision not to turn up for a game, now he has to accept that. If someone came up with a magic wand to put time back and make the score 3-1 it simply wouldnt hold up as Topalovs team could make a legal challenge (quite successfully I would have thought). In fact it would be an unprecedented action. Lets face it this whole thing is a sorry mess, FIDE cannot be trusted to run a match like this. I only hope that Kramnik decides to continue with the score as 3-2, after all he is still winning! As someone mentioned Fischer defaulted and was 2-0 down but came back, the effect of Kramniks default is to make Topalovs comeback a lot easier, but theoretically the best player should still win.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #279 - 10/02/06 at 07:16:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Has Kasparov had anything to say about all this so far? It would be interesting to hear his thoughts. Regarding officials making blatant errors that effect the outcome of a sporting contest of the kind mentioned in that football match. I think the days of such erroneous results standing will come to an end soon, since the advancement in technology that allows umpires, referees and the public to scrutinize, replay and analyse events will not tolerate gross ineptitude for long. Kramnik is already champion in my eyes, and as much as I wanted Topalov to win I have now lost all respect for him. Desperation is never an attractive quality and almost always brings out the worse in a person. Is saving a match by any means neccessary really worth it? Lastly should the match be abandoned at this point with Topalov down 3-1, does that make him a legitimate champion or simply a paper champion of the Kasimdzhanov kind. One thing is clear, Kramnik still holds a hex over him. Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #278 - 10/02/06 at 05:06:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topalov can redeem himself by resigning after move 1 if there is a technicality hitch with 3:1 and Kramnik can agree to play 14 games. Well... day dreaming

	CastleRock
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StuntLinguist YaBB Newbies Offline Pronouncer of strange and difficult words. Posts: 42 Location: columbia Joined: 10/09/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #277 - 10/02/06 at 05:00:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Very exciting! Looks like we'll finally get more top notch chess. While I still find the last several days ridiculous (to say the least), I have to give FIDE credit. Forcing the resignation of the appeals committee and reversing their decision were necessary and logically correct. Kramnik's forfeit really does have to stand (as much as I hate to admit it), as this is the only appropriate or logical continuation. This actually is very reminiscent of the recent Oklahoma - Oregon (american) football game where the refs clearly made an erroneous call (or 3) and because of this Oklahoma lost the game. The NCAA appologized, suspended the refs, but upheld the result of the game. Ii have never been a fan of Kirsan's, but he has sorted out a seemingly impossible mess. As long as the games go on, he should certainly be congratulated. SL


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #276 - 10/02/06 at 04:18:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Apparently Kramnik has brought Svidler and Bareev to join his Elista team, which may be an indication that he intends to play allow Topalov his undeserved forfeit point and play game 6: http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/2006/10/game-6-showdown.html If indeed Kramnik takes the high road here (i.e., accepts the forfeit and plays game 6) I think it speaks highly of his character. Events which have transpired thus far, of course, already speak volumes about Topalov's character — he has none! I still hope that Topalov might redeem himself and accept continuation of the match at game 5 (if such an option still exists). For good measure, he should also fire that weasel (words I would like to use here would all be censored!) Danailov and publicly appologize to Kramnik.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Mortal Games God Member Offline Posts: 587 Joined: 07/24/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #275 - 10/02/06 at 03:34:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: I missed this post earlier, and I wholeheartedly agree, the only question left to be pondered now is indeed the nature of the hallucinogen being smoked. Another plausible explanation could be that some posters have been abducted by Bulgarian terrorists and forced on pain of death to type pro Topalov sentiment. Options: 1-This guys are from another world or naives? 2-Bulgarians? 3-Lots of ganja and hallucinogen? 4-Kidnaped by Bulgarian terrorists? 5-Spirits of contradiction? 6-Cannot read a text or understand it? 7-Think that whole world is wrong and they are right?

	It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses. It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #274 - 10/02/06 at 03:05:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 10/01/06 at 15:55:48: MNb wrote on 10/01/06 at 02:29:45: 1. Topalov's complaint was a perversion of justice indeed. It hardly has any substance; it uses a lot of words to state, that Kramnik used the bathroom remarkable often. There was no single reason to play hardball. At best, this argues that the appeals committee decided wrongly. Anyone has the right to such an opinion. Clearly however, Topalov had the right under the match terms to raise the issue that he raised. What anyone thinks of the objective merit of his complaint, his supposed reasons for making it, and what the appeals committee >should have< done about it, should be a matter for journalistic commentary and post-match speculation, NOT a pretext for breaking up the match, or even threatening to. I am amazed that the absolute necessity of governance by rule, which obligates players to respect the decisions of arbiters in every sport, is so widely disregarded on this thread. What we have instead -- I do not accuse you of it -- is a remarkable prevalance of rhetorically puerile foot-stomping and wall-slamming over a ruling that, in substance, is remarkably inoffensive and affects both players equally. I am also amazed that Kramnik's strange bathroom behavior, which certainly might cause a reasonable person to suspect that he was cheating, is not seen as a >possibly< valid basis for a complaint by Topalovs team. As I remarked earlier, if I saw a player at a weekend tournament visiting the bathroom ten times or so during each of his games, I would certainly inform the director of it. I mainly agree with this, except one point. I never denied Topalov's right to present an official complaint. He also has the right to complain about the length of Kramnik's nose. My point is, that Topalov's official complaint was an intentional action to stir up trouble - and he has succeeded. In my opinion such an action is a perversion of justice indeed. For instance, he could have formulated a request, to find out the reason for Kramnik's all too frequent visits of the bathroom. Another option, if he really suspected fraud, was a request to search both bathrooms a few minutes before the start of the games. Topalov's complaint reminds me of the trial as described by Joseph Wambaugh in his 1973 book The Onion Field. I blame him for doing this, but by no means think, this justifies the actions of the arbiters and Kramnik.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #273 - 10/02/06 at 02:33:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	OstapBender wrote on 10/01/06 at 22:48:23: While out of town I briefly got internet access yesterday to check on the progress of the match and could hardly believe what I found out. Another classic FIDE bungle! That Topalov's off the board tactics (the over that board ones being clearly ineffective) should net him a game by forfeit in this match is simply outrageous. Team Topalov's suggestions that Kramnik was somehow cheating were groundless — not to mention deliberately insulting to Kramnik. Obviously, the match should continue with game 5 — that any "reasonable" person could claim otherwise (as appears to be the case in this forum) is beyond belief. What are you guys smoking? I missed this post earlier, and I wholeheartedly agree, the only question left to be pondered now is indeed the nature of the hallucinogen being smoked. Another plausible explanation could be that some posters have been abducted by Bulgarian terrorists and forced on pain of death to type pro Topalov sentiment. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Prince-Nez Senior Member Offline Sic Transit Gloria Mundi Posts: 251 Joined: 03/23/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #272 - 10/02/06 at 01:38:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 10/01/06 at 22:55:37: To win a World Championship match with a two game deficit is impressive indeed, a feat that would be the envy of Houdini himself And Kramnik's popularity among chess fans will have grown by a factor of 50! An even more amazing feat.

	We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art. &&~ Henry James
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #271 - 10/02/06 at 01:06:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 10/01/06 at 20:47:38: This is the latest from FIDE: After the detailed study of the current situation and the consultation with the FIDE Legal Advisor, the FIDE President decided: Tomorrow, 2 October 2006, at 15.00, the 6th Game of the World Chess Championship Match Topalov-Kramnik with the score 3:2 in favour of Kramnik, will take place. This is crap. First Kirsan says the issue is no longer legal, but political. Then he consults his legal advisor! Lawyers have no place when sportsmanship and legitimacy of title is at issue. Anyway, it is possible that even if Kramnik plays on, Topalov will be affected negatively psychologically by the free point.


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #270 - 10/01/06 at 22:56:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	@O.Bender: Hashish. Reefer. La Mauvaise Herbe. Ganja. I think that the color allocation ought to be flipped: game 6 should be a Kramnik white instead of black, thus giving him one more white overall. Seems like some compensation for accepting the 3-2 score. If Kramnik is indeed black tomorrow, he should whip out the Modern Benoni a la Fischer 1972. That would be worth some style points! Of course, these are just the non-sensical ravings of a lunatic mind, whatever those are worth.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #269 - 10/01/06 at 22:55:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	I suspect the match is over, and Topalov and his team's desperate last long shot has paid off in spades. Before this match began I was rooting for Topalov to win, but now I am utterly disgusted. It would have been much better to lose the match with dignity than to stoop to this level to keep the title. To be honest I thought that Topalov team's semi absurd complaint was a ploy simply aimed at delaying the match to allow for some more prep time for he and his team. However the handling of the complaint by the appeals committee was so ridculous, that obviously under the circumstances it was clear that Kramnik could not continue. I would have done the same, had someone accused me of cheating (which is what Topalov's team is really siggesting), and then had it more or less upheld by an appeals committee. This junk about the judges ruling being final is nonsense when it is clear that the ruling itself is not only unjustfied but unlawful, and to add itself to injury to forfeit one of the contestants before there had been a proper resolution is incredible. I particularly loved how Topalov showed up for game five no doubt eager to pocket the predicted forfeit, and there is no chance in hell that he is gunna give that up, and why should he. Pschologically it is difficult to play a game you have already been awarded, the problem is, he should never have been awarded the game in the first place, but rather at that point the match should have been postponed whereupon a resolution would have been much more likely than it is now. As I have said before on this thread and maybe others too, Topalov absolutely had no realistic chance to get back into this match, and it seems that the reality of this predicament prompted Topalov's team to concoct a scheme designed to at the very least disrupt the match or at most abort it altogether. Now with Fide's help Topalovs's team seems to have achieved the latter. Had Topalov not missed mate in three in game two, which incidentally blows a big hole in his 'cheating in the toilet argument' then we probably would not have the situation we have now. I suspect had Kramnik showed up for game five, Topalov and his team would have searched for other ways to abort the match. Luckily its Topalov's team and not Kramnik's that includes the parapsychologist, as surely they would protested that too. My prediction now is that Topalov retains his Fide title by forfeit. To win a World Championship match with a two game deficit is impressive indeed, a feat that would be the envy of Houdini himself Topster
	« Last Edit: 10/02/06 at 01:30:30 by TopNotch »
	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #268 - 10/01/06 at 22:48:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	While out of town I briefly got internet access yesterday to check on the progress of the match and could hardly believe what I found out. Another classic FIDE bungle! That Topalov's off the board tactics (the over that board ones being clearly ineffective) should net him a game by forfeit in this match is simply outrageous. Team Topalov's suggestions that Kramnik was somehow cheating were groundless — not to mention deliberately insulting to Kramnik. Obviously, the match should continue with game 5 — that any "reasonable" person could claim otherwise (as appears to be the case in this forum) is beyond belief. What are you guys smoking?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #267 - 10/01/06 at 22:48:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	It just hit me: This is all staged. Its just like WWF Wrestling. Fake. Scripted and everything. I see clearly now. I can't believe it took me so long to realize such an obvious truth. The Scrabble championships are on TV right now. Maybe I should switch back to that game. It seems to still have a shred of integrity left in it. But maybe not, it could be corrupt too. How many points is "toilet" worth if it starts on a triple word score? Ah, I know....3-2. Peace out. James


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Mortal Games God Member Offline Posts: 587 Joined: 07/24/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #266 - 10/01/06 at 22:09:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Another reasonable opinion, from Bessel Kok: Quote: 1-The Appeals Committee made a wrong judgment and its decision to modify the playing conditions must be declared null and void. 2-Game five was started under playing conditions that were not mutually agreed by both players (and in fact explicitly rejected by one of them), so the game should be considered null and void. 3-Game five should start tomorrow, Monday, October 2nd, and the match should continue under the same playing conditions as agreed before. 4-The Appeals Committee should be dismissed and replaced by a Committee agreed by both players. 5-In the absence of an agreed Committee, the FIDE President is responsible for the duties of the Committee. 6-Proceed as quickly as possible with the outsourcing of all top-level chess competitions to a separate company manage by professional organisers. Get on with it! Enough damage has been done!!

	It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses. It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Mortal Games God Member Offline Posts: 587 Joined: 07/24/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #265 - 10/01/06 at 22:01:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: So, if it appears that if there IS to be a match, forfeit loss will stand. That seems quite reasonable to me. If you refuse to play, you forfeit. It remains to be seen if the match will indeed resule under these conditions. Reasonable? Only for an alien no? If Topalov is a man of honour, he will never accept that a match will continue 3-2 but unfortunately I have doubts, because the mafia that surrounds him are looking now for the millions and for the next match with Radjabov that Topalov can loose if he looses this match. Kirsan acts like a saint but always in Topalov favor. The strategy of Topalov and his mafia outside the board was very good! Congratulations! He found a way to skip away from this lost match and put suspicions on Kramnik and Topalov become the victim of the situation. Just perfect! And do not forgett about who was on that mafia commite- one manager of Radjabov! Here are some opinions from all over the world: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3386 maybe this can clean the dust from the eyes of the few who still defend Topalov for dubious reasons.

	It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses. It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #264 - 10/01/06 at 20:47:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	This is the latest from FIDE: After the numerous rounds of the negotiations with the teams of Veselin Topalov and Vladimir Kramnik, FIDE President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov managed to reach the considerable progress. As it was informed before, the question on the bathrooms was solved positively by mutual agreement of both teams. After the voluntary resignation of the members of the 2006 World Chess Championship Appeals Committee, the new members of the Committee, who have already arrived to Elista, were assigned. The FIDE President has made several proposals for further continuation of the match, which unfortunately were not accepted. After the detailed study of the current situation and the consultation with the FIDE Legal Advisor, the FIDE President decided: Tomorrow, 2 October 2006, at 15.00, the 6th Game of the World Chess Championship Match Topalov-Kramnik with the score 3:2 in favour of Kramnik, will take place. So, if it appears that if there IS to be a match, forfeit loss will stand. That seems quite reasonable to me. If you refuse to play, you forfeit. It remains to be seen if the match will indeed resule under these conditions.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #263 - 10/01/06 at 20:29:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 10/01/06 at 15:55:48: I am amazed that the absolute necessity of governance by rule, which obligates players to respect the decisions of arbiters in every sport, is so widely disregarded on this thread. What we have instead -- I do not accuse you of it -- is a remarkable prevalance of rhetorically puerile foot-stomping and wall-slamming over a ruling that, in substance, is remarkably inoffensive and affects both players equally. And this is, ultimately the problem: reasonable people can disagree as to whether the arbiters actually had it within their power to change the conditions in this way. Since neither camp playing can be described as reasonable, we find ourselves at an impasse. I agree with you that Kramnik should have played the game since any fool could have foreseen the situation we find ourselves in: the actual complaint can be resolved, but not the business of the forfeit. Still it is not correct to say that the decision affected the players equally; clearly, Kramnik cared much more. The fact that players care differently about various match provisions is the whole reason for the negotiations and contract... Well, another day without chess. I agree that tomorrow will be decisive. I expect Kirsan to rule that the match continues 3-1 and Topalov to walk out, thus ending another sad chapter. I wonder if Kramnik would then agree to play on from 3-2, or from 3-1 with a 14 game match (as has also been suggested). Now I realize why there have been so many human-computer matches...


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #262 - 10/01/06 at 20:05:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	I expect tomorrow will be an important day when it comes to the fate of this Championship. Either a solution will have been found or otherwise I am afraid it all can soon be over.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #261 - 10/01/06 at 19:09:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Toppa's team states if the result of Kramnik's forfeit in game #4 stands they are leaving the match. I doubt Kramnik is going to accept this so in my mind the match is over & done with.... I hope this is not the case but if this pathetic episode should result in the canclelation of the WC match then as far as I'M concerend top level chess is dead, FIDE is dead, & the game withdraws to the club ranks where it has always been healthy & strong! Considering the way FIDE & some top GM's have ruined the game with their antics this will be a welcome turn of events! The way I see this now goes beyond the who is right and wrong argument....both players are acting out of line. Let the legacy of Toppa vs Kramnik match be 'The Death of Top Level Chess' Considering what has taken place in top level chess over the last 15 years I won't miss it much.........


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #260 - 10/01/06 at 17:40:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	I find it incredibly unlikely that either player will let go of "his" favorite score: Topalov 3-2 and Kramnik 3-1. The most probable outcome is a cancelled match, I'm afraid. However, my romantic spirit cannot help but cry out this: Kramnik should take a bold step and accept the result of game 5, 0-1. Resume the match at 3-2, and with courage and strength, try to prove superiority nonetheless and win the match. Not only will he have garnered more sympathy from the world spectator forum, but he can draw inspiration and confidence from the 1972 Fischer-Spassky match (although the score was more heavily against Fischer after his forfeit...0-2). Personally speaking, I would want to root for Kramnik in this situation, for their is something heroic about it. Drawing strength from past heroes is a valuable psychological tool for motivation, and knowing the the world supports you in your efforts is likewise an added boost... Of course this is hogwash, just the non-sensical ravings of a lunatic mind. It would be VERY risky to give such a dynamic and dangerous player as Topalov a free point in a very TENSE and IMPORTANT match. It could so easily BACKFIRE on him that he would have to be out of his mind to consider it! But I would enjoy seeing it!


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Mortal Games God Member Offline Posts: 587 Joined: 07/24/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #259 - 10/01/06 at 17:16:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, a parapsycologist in a team of chess is a complete circus. Maybe the idea of this toilet mess was an idea of that brilliant spirit. Why the commite had to close the toilet? It was not much more simple to put a camera there and end of story? Topalov has the right to claim a camera on that room without cam, but not the right to force Kramnik to stay on the board all the time and to wait hours to decide drawn positions like it was Topalov strategy since the beginning of the games to fisicaly stress Kramnik as Seirawan told. Talking about cheating is just an ilusion and to send dust to the eyes of some people because the games had a lot of errors by both players and if someone is cheating this will never happened. In game two for example, Topalov do not saw a mate with Qc7 at some moment! But Kramnik did not see it too, because he played the wrong move before. Chess needs sportsman from chess like Seirawan or Nunn in the decisions and not corrupts who win elections by paying very well to small federations or commites with Azmais etc (the same who was punched in the nose in Spain, because Spain is not Khalmykia!). With these clowns we can only have: Newspapers: W.C. stopped the world chess championat! Chess needs to be like tennis with professional commites and professional organization, because if chess have that, the result of this mess will be: 2-0 Kramnik world champion and Topalov suspended. With a professional federation, players cannot claim fool alegations and mind games to disturb other players. Chess fans can love the style of one player or another, but if we look at the facts with justice, the game will continues with 3-1 and end of story.

	It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses. It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #258 - 10/01/06 at 16:38:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	As more I read and hear about this disaster, as more i have to wonder about few things that realy confusses me. Team Topalov has parapsycologist in their team. Why did they bring this person? Do they seriously belief in his "power" to desturb Kramnik`s thoughts. If we asume he has the power to disturb the thoughts of your openent, would that not been cheating? If Topalovs team dont believe in the power of this parapsycologist, but hoped to confuse Kramnik by simply the present of the parapsycologist, then the idea is close that to get the video/toilet storry had the same, planed intention. And we could have the impression that the entire strategy of team Topalov is to win the match next to the board. As a (old) Topalov fan, I hope there is an other, more fair, reason behind the present of this parapsycologist.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #257 - 10/01/06 at 16:07:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Buzz wrote on 10/01/06 at 15:36:56: Another fine mess...THANX FIDE! It is much less FIDE than the perception of both camps that FIDE is weak, and will yield to pressure, that gives rise to this. Certainly Kramnik's refusal to play on until the ruling was changed AND the match committee replaced assumes a weak FIDE, so fearful of sacrificing the match that it would allow itself to be pushed around on such a trival matter as bathroom privileges. Kramnik gambles that he will be able to have his way with FIDE, and it seems that he will win. So FIDE continues to be weak, and world chess continues to be a loose alliance of baronial fiefdoms led by self-styled "World Champions"; backed up by their self-interested GM lackeys; and cheered on by a ridiculous serfdom of ordinary chess fans, more interested in the success of their personal favorite than in the longterm health of world chess. We have Garry Kasparov to thank for this, and the many top GMs who strung along with him when he tore FIDE to shreds in the first place.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #256 - 10/01/06 at 15:55:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 10/01/06 at 02:29:45: 1. Topalov's complaint was a perversion of justice indeed. It hardly has any substance; it uses a lot of words to state, that Kramnik used the bathroom remarkable often. There was no single reason to play hardball. At best, this argues that the appeals committee decided wrongly. Anyone has the right to such an opinion. Clearly however, Topalov had the right under the match terms to raise the issue that he raised. What anyone thinks of the objective merit of his complaint, his supposed reasons for making it, and what the appeals committee >should have< done about it, should be a matter for journalistic commentary and post-match speculation, NOT a pretext for breaking up the match, or even threatening to. I am amazed that the absolute necessity of governance by rule, which obligates players to respect the decisions of arbiters in every sport, is so widely disregarded on this thread. What we have instead -- I do not accuse you of it -- is a remarkable prevalance of rhetorically puerile foot-stomping and wall-slamming over a ruling that, in substance, is remarkably inoffensive and affects both players equally. I am also amazed that Kramnik's strange bathroom behavior, which certainly might cause a reasonable person to suspect that he was cheating, is not seen as a >possibly< valid basis for a complaint by Topalovs team. As I remarked earlier, if I saw a player at a weekend tournament visiting the bathroom ten times or so during each of his games, I would certainly inform the director of it.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #255 - 10/01/06 at 15:40:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Mortal Games wrote on 10/01/06 at 12:09:35: Some opinions about this match: Quote: GM Jonathan Rowson, British Chess Champion, London, UK Like most chess players, I have been saddened by the recent turn of events, and hope there is some way out of this position, which now resembles a reciprocal zugzwang. Allowing the clocks to start yesterday was an organisational mistake equivalent to blundering one’s queen without compensation. After Kramnik’s inevitable forfeit, neither side can move from their respective positions without making a big concession. "Kramnik's 'inevitable' forfeit!" Ridiculous. It's one thing to have an absurdly self-important WC for whom altered bathroom privileges are a sufficient ground for refusing to continue a championship match; it's another to have GMs, thousands of miles away and in the cold light of day, making excuses for him. "Inevitable" indeed!

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #254 - 10/01/06 at 15:36:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Another fine mess...THANX FIDE!


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Mortal Games God Member Offline Posts: 587 Joined: 07/24/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #253 - 10/01/06 at 12:09:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Some opinions about this match: Quote: GM Jonathan Rowson, British Chess Champion, London, UK Like most chess players, I have been saddened by the recent turn of events, and hope there is some way out of this position, which now resembles a reciprocal zugzwang. Allowing the clocks to start yesterday was an organisational mistake equivalent to blundering one’s queen without compensation. After Kramnik’s inevitable forfeit, neither side can move from their respective positions without making a big concession. It would seem therefore that the situation now calls for some sort of compromise, and I notice that the FIDE President highlighted this need in his recent interview on the FIDE website. To call for the two sides to compromise sounds suitably ‘Presidential’ until you realise that compromise is not at all appropriate in the circumstances. I agree with the recent postings of John Nunn and Yasser Seirawan that the match has to be resumed at 3-1 and game five recommenced as soon as possible. A pertinent analogue helps to highlight why compromise is not always the appropriate way to resolve a conflict: Two brothers, lets call them Vosilin and Vledimir, saw a cake on their kitchen table at the same time, assumed it was for them, and started arguing over it. Vosilin said that he liked the look of the cake and wanted all of it for himself. Vledimir said that he also wanted the cake, but given that his brother also wanted some, they should cut the cake in half and share it. Their father, lets call him Fido, arrived in the kitchen just in time to stop a fully fledged physical fight. Trying to be wise, Fido advised them that fighting was a childish way to solve a dispute, and that when two grownups can’t agree on something, they should seek a compromise. Fido further explained that they would both have to make a concession in order to solve the problem without fighting. However, the brothers held on to their respective positions, Vledimir because he felt he was right, and Vosilin because he thought it was the best strategy. Fido explained that if they weren’t willing to change their minds, he would have to resolve the situation by finding a mid-point between their two views. So what was the outcome? Fido cut the cake, but granted three quarters of the cake to Vosilin and only a quarter to Vledimir. Let us hope a similar outcome does not transpire in Elista. Compromise is NOT the solution in manifestly unfair situations. Fido’s responsibility was to tell Vosilin that his demand was unreasonable and allow the cake to be cut in half. Fide’s responsibility now is to tell the Topalov camp that their demands have been unreasonable, and restore the match score to 3-1. Quote: David Levy, London, GB At the time of writing (around 7am London time on October 1st) it appears that the match in Elista is likely to come to a premature and disastrous end. In my opinion, if this happens it will be the Appeal Committee that is responsible. What should have been a relatively minor crisis has been severely exacerbated by the ruling that both players’ toilets would be closed and that the players would have to share a single toilet. To many outside the world of top class chess this might seem to be an overly strong accusation on my part, but I am convinced that it is justified. Between moves Kramnik likes to make full use of the physical space at his disposal for walking, which is undeniably his right. It would be his right even if he did not have a medical condition that is, it would seem, eased by walking. There is nothing, in itself, wrong with what Kramnik wants. The problem lies in the fact that there have been a few established cases of computerised cheating during chess games, and Team Topalov has implied that there were insufficient controls instigated by the match organisers to ensure that no-one could justifiably suspect anything untoward during Kramnik’s frequent visits to the toilet. It would be madness to suggest that either player in this match would attempt to make any use of computers during a game. But that is not the point. The fact is that Kramnik’s frequent use of the toilet appears to have disturbed Topalov, whose team exercised their right to protest, since one of the golden rules of competitive chess is that it is forbidden to disturb or distract the opponent in any way whatsoever. But the right to protest does not carry with it an automatic right for a protest to be upheld, which is, in effect, what the Appeal Committee has done in Elista. It was the committee’s legal right to take any decision they felt appropriate, and they exercised that right as they were entitled to do, but the manner in which they did so was sheer madness. It is long established that for World Championship matches each player has their own rest area and their own toilet area. In London, in 1986, for the first half of the Kasparov-Karpov match, we even arranged routes for the two players to be able to reach their respective toilets without meeting each other on the way, such was the animosity between them. The arrangements for the Elista match took the standard toilet requirements into consideration, with the agreement of both sides. But when Team Topalov protested about Kramnik’s frequent use of his toilet, the Appeal Committee failed in their duty to ensure the smooth continuation of the match. What they should have done, in my opinion, is to have arranged for both toilets to have been swept for electronic devices a few minutes prior to the start of each game, and to have advised Team Topalov that they regarded this to be a sufficient action in response to the protest. Then the match would have continued normally. There is a precedent for electronic sweeping – the Icelandic organisers examined Spassky’s chair during the 1972 match, after Fischer had suspected the chair of containing something untoward. But instead the Appeal Committee decided to change the physical conditions of the match, and to do so in a way that contravened what both sides had agreed prior to the start of the match. It is the given right of lawmakers to make an ass of the Law if they see fit, and the Appeal Committee exercised this right, to disastrous effect. Once the Appeal Committee had made its ruling it is extremely difficult to see how the match could have been kept on the rails. Kramnik, understandably, was unwilling to play under physical conditions that did not conform to those that had been agreed, and he should not be criticised for taking this position. The Chief Arbiter had no choice but to start the clocks and to forfeit Kramnik. Topalov should not be criticised for winning a game by forfeit, any more than Spassky should be criticised for winning the second game in Reykjavik by forfeit. Thus we can see that, following the madness of the Appeal Committee, the variation played out in Elista was forced. So what now? Kirsan Ilyumzhinov is doing his best to resolve this chess tragedy, but in order to do so he needs, first and foremost, a magnanimous gesture from one of the players regarding the score in the match. Either Topalov gives up the point that he won by forfeit in game 5, which he has no good reason to do, or Kramik accepts that the Appeal Committee’s decision before game 5, mad though it was, had to be obeyed because it was the Law at that time. Again there is a precedent from the Reykjavik match in 1972, when Fischer accepted his forfeit and continued the match from a score of 0-2, winning the championship in brilliant style. And if Kramnik follows Fischer’s example and accepts the forfeit, he will doubtless be able to secure from the match organisers an arrangement for the toilets that also satisfies Team Topalov. Chess lovers the world over want this match to continue. But magnanimous gestures are not the norm in World Chess Championship matches. Is there any way that might lead to the continuation of the match? Perhaps there is. If President Putin were to send Kramnik a message of good luck, telling him that Russia hopes and expects him to win the match, then perhaps we will see both the magnanimous gesture on Kramnik’s part and more reasoned toilet arrangements than those dictated by the Appeal Committtee.

	It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses. It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #252 - 10/01/06 at 09:32:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	I find it difficult to imagine that Topalov would want to give a draw away like this either. After all he is trailing two points behind. Maybe the 5th game still will be played.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #251 - 10/01/06 at 09:01:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 10/01/06 at 08:34:48: Toilet opened and appeals committee resigned. Looks like score will be set at 3.5-1.5 and the match will continue - Hopefully. well i'm not so certain. Will Kramnik give up a draw with his White pieces in Round 5 without a single move, and go for game 6 where he has Black? I think the advantage of White is pretty significant.. The fact that the 3:1 issue (which should be the first issue decided upon) is unresolved means there is still big chance of the match aborted.


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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #250 - 10/01/06 at 08:37:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	I just wonder if the prearranged conditions didnt violate normal chess rules in the first place. The idea of a private restroom seems to contradict the general rule that no player may leave the playing room during a game. By the same reasoning the video's from the restrooms shouldnt be secret. Of course a bathroom or a toilet is different in privacy aspects. That is unless you use the bathroom or toilet for a different purpose as Kramnik has publicly declared, namely as an extension to the restroom. His argument that the restroom is too small, seems rather silly. He could have have argued the point before the match start. Besides his frequent bathroom trips are apparently not caused by a medical emergency, so this may have been a psychological match tactic as well (we'll probably never know). By the way, which idiot installed a monitor in the bathroom so that players could watch the podium (and the board position?!) from there? @Taljechin The fact that I argued that Kramniks behaviour after the 4th game sparked off the Topalov-team protest, doenst mean that I approve of this reaction or of any psychological warfare at that. I mentioned it to show that K's behaviour is not spotless itself. You shouldn't be so quick to cry insult, when youre not above a little verbal warfare yourself. Finally in my view GM Nunns reaction should not be questioned because he has critisized the Fide in past publications. I don't like the Fide either and don't think it can be trusted to provide a credible world champion cycle. Just now, the candidate matches that should have started next month have been abandonded...... What I don't like in Nunn's reaction is his bias for Kramnik and against Topalov. His argument that for all practical purposes the match is allready decided (based on Kramniks win againt Kasparov) seems a bit off topic to me. For instance I dont see Topolav to offer two draws within 15 moves, when conducting the white pieces.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #249 - 10/01/06 at 08:34:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Toilet opened and appeals committee resigned. Looks like score will be set at 3.5-1.5 and the match will continue - Hopefully.

	CastleRock
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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #248 - 10/01/06 at 08:12:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	LOL LOL and LOL My theory of conspiracy is that the parapsychologist in Topalovs Team made Kramnik think, "ohh dear, I have to walk in and out the toilet"


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #247 - 10/01/06 at 03:39:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes. Wisdom is what is called for. But when I read the names of the arbiters, I am deeply pessimistic.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #246 - 10/01/06 at 03:23:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	The arbiters have blown it. Before this match I had very little reason to dislike Topalov. He plays attractive chess but made some self-serving comments before accepting the terms of the match. There was nothing terrible in either case. Then he lost two games, one of which he was very close to winning. I was almost sympathetic toward him. But now he, and especially his manager Danailov, have made ridculous claims that should have been ignored by the arbiters. Markovich is completely wrong in suggesting Topalov's case had merit. John Nunn's open letter is about what I wou have written about the situation if I thought it would have made any difference at all. Ok, Nunn's letter was more tactful than mine would have been. Yasser Seirawan's letter and offer of mediation is nice, but unnecessary. The arbiters have dug themselves a deep whole. If their opinion is to carry any weight, then the decision to forfeit Kramnik is the only consistent decision to make. They also have to acknowledge that both their decision to close the toilet and not to grant Kramnik a chance to be heard (in America, it's Habeas Corpus that covers this right) were both reversibly wrong. So the consistent choice would be for the arbiters to admit an error, open the bathrooms and give Topalov the point for game 5. Of course this consistent choice would probably result in Kramnik's forfeiture of the match. Ok, so consistency be damned (The censorbot be damned. That is, be condemned to hell.) The arbiters need to announce that they made a mistake. This mistake led inevitably to Kramnik's over-reaction. FIDE needs to have a chess game this weekend, so both players will have to agree to play a game on Sunday, with Kramnik having White and the current score being 3-1 in favor of Kramnik. The arbiters will search the toilets before and after each game but not limit the number of potty trips either player may make. Then the arbiters should call for an extra rest day and reschedule events in order to allow the players to calm down after all this mess. Will they do it? Of course not. They have egos just as big as the players involved. But if they want to save chess from another 5-10 years of wandering the desert, they'd better do something. Admitting they made a mistake would be an unprecedented but good start.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #245 - 10/01/06 at 02:29:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	1. Topalov's complaint was a perversion of justice indeed. It hardly has any substance; it uses a lot of words to state, that Kramnik used the bathroom remarkable often. There was no single reason to play hardball. 2. The reaction of the arbiter's committe was undiplomatic, to say it friendly. 3. Kramnik sitting for a locked door is ridiculous and unproportional. Conclusion: it's just another fine mess, they turned us in. The only way to avoid vomiting is mocking.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #244 - 10/01/06 at 00:16:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	It remains to be seen, we've still got interesting days ahead.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #243 - 09/30/06 at 22:02:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	StuntLinguist wrote on 09/30/06 at 21:17:34: Why does Markovich keep bringing up this analogy of referees in other sports?? Referees in sports enforce the rules of the game itself. They have nothing at all to do with the negotiations of things like facilities, etc. If a referee in football tried to regulate bathrooms, locker rooms, benches, then they would also be mocked. Well, I am rather sure that there are rules and official bodies that DO govern locker rooms, benches, and the like in almost any professional sport you care to mention. Chess has scant need of field referees, it being usually self-evident the square upon which a piece resides. What do you think match arbiters are for, to make sure the en passant capture rule is properly observed? Not to deal with possible cheating? My analogy has less to do with the particular role of referees than the necessity of governance BY RULE in any sort of sporting competition. In this regard, there is a perfect analogy between chess and other sports. StuntLinguist wrote on 09/30/06 at 21:17:34: Perhaps you missed the recent FIDE elections????? Which showed that some people don't like FIDE, big deal. Some of these people then agreed in writing to definite terms for this match, which included that FIDE would sponsor it and arbitrate it. Those were the match terms; it's not my name that was on the dotted line, but Kramnik's. StuntLinguist wrote on 09/30/06 at 21:17:34: Again, I point out that Topalov was the instigator of this toilet war and the first to threaten to leave the match if conditions were not changed. Yes, the Evil Topalov was the "instigator" of the FRIGHTFUL outcome that Kramnik -- and Topalov himself -- were going to have to use a different bathroom! How DARE he exercise his right to lodge complaints under the match terms, knowing that it might result in such a gross injustice?!! Not to use the pre-arranged bathroom??!! Oh unspeakable horror! Oh degradation! Oh perversion of justice! Oh THANK GOD the match was called off before one drop of urine was spilled under those damnable conditions!! And I will add that IF Topalov had been unsatisfied with the ruling to the point of refusing to play further, then I would today condemn him in the very same terms that I'm condemning Kramnik. But we'll never know, will we, whether that would have happened?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #242 - 09/30/06 at 21:46:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 09/30/06 at 15:11:56: I see your points and would love to agree with you Markovich, because that is the way it ideally should be. The problem lies however with the incompetence of FIDE and with the way the World Champion is decided. FIDE and it's appointed men have numerous times shown that they can't be trusted (I think recent happenings is a case in point), so people are rightfully suspicious. Why would they suddenly change the pre-arranged, contracted terms in a way that clearly favours one of the players when no wrongdoing has been found? I don't think it is fair to compare chess with other sports, except to point out the lack of autorithy of the sporting body. This is not the case in other sports. Combined with the fact that in chess the title hasn't really been owned by the sporting body but by the title-holders, it only causes problems. In my mind Geurt Gijssen is the referee, not the Committee. We are not going to agree on this, so let's respectfully agree to disagree. Fine. Of course I respect you personally. Let us indeed disagree respectfully. But I certainly will continue to post here, in amplification of my point of view, as long as anyone else does in amplification of his. "I don't think it is fair to compare chess with other sports." But chess IS a sport. Or perhaps we have a sport that for some deep and mystical reasons, should not be governed by rules? Chess under Kasparov was partially "owned" by the WC, and that was a very regrettable circumstance that made chess a laughingstock among sports. Thank goodness, we have come a ways back since then. But this match is not sponsored, and governed by "chess" or by the titleholders, but by FIDE. And these were the terms that each contestant agreed to. I'm not saying that Topalov is a saint or that Kramnik is a cheater. I am only saying that, a ruling having been issued, Kramnik was bound by rule and honor to sit down and play chess. If the simple principle of governance BY RULE is not to hold in chess competitions, we can forget about chess as an international sport, and laugh while 7 different "Champions" appoint themselves the exclusive arbiters of the matches in which they play.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Trevormkidd YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 26 Joined: 04/01/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #241 - 09/30/06 at 21:45:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Scholar wrote on 09/30/06 at 19:39:49: He was on camera, even in the rest room, as far as I can tell from still images of the video available to the arbiter. Yes the video does clearly show the rest room. There wouldn't be an issue if Kramnik was spending his time there. The issue is the very unusual amount of time he has been spending in the BATHroom.


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StuntLinguist YaBB Newbies Offline Pronouncer of strange and difficult words. Posts: 42 Location: columbia Joined: 10/09/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #240 - 09/30/06 at 21:17:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Dear me, I must lack some moral faculty possessed by John Nunn, since I fail to see that this is a moral issue at all, still less one that clearly favors one side or the other. I see only the necessity that chess matches, like other sporting competitions, be rule-governed; and that the decision of the referees, whatever the sport, must be final. I see only that if a contestant refuses to play when the time for competition is at hand, he must stand forfeit. Why does Markovich keep bringing up this analogy of referees in other sports?? Referees in sports enforce the rules of the game itself. They have nothing at all to do with the negotiations of things like facilities, etc. If a referee in football tried to regulate bathrooms, locker rooms, benches, then they would also be mocked. Secondly, the issue of whether or not Topalov's argument had enough merit to warrant an action by the committee would certainly not fall under the category of morality, but would still be right or wrong, as in 'correct or incorrect'. The fact that the group made a decision, given the evidence available (at least to us) and their alleged ties to Topalov would fall in the realm of morality. Quote: The question of which one of these players is more beloved by FIDE is both a non sequitur and an implicit attack on FIDE. Well fine, Nunn is entitled to his opinion that FIDE is evil and conspires against Kramnik, but such a belief is totally inconsistent with anyone's agreement that FIDE should govern this match in the first place. Indeed if that is the case, FIDE should govern no chess competitions. So wonderful, let's just flush FIDE down Kramnik's toilet and let Nunn, Kramnik and whoever else has a third eye that perceives Right and Wrong, govern world chess. But if Nunn, Kramnik and others who possess this peculiar organ could see so clearly that FIDE was evil, why didn't they let the rest of us know about it before the start of this match? Perhaps you missed the recent FIDE elections????? Quote: And let us, dear friends, once again return to the question of proportionality. There may be ethical principles at stake in anyone's bathroom privileges, but are they really so weighty as to warrant torpedoing a WC match in progress, with all the attendant damage to world chess that that entails? Again, I point out that Topalov was the instigator of this toilet war and the first to threaten to leave the match if conditions were not changed. StuntLinguist


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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #239 - 09/30/06 at 19:39:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Trevormkidd wrote on 09/30/06 at 18:27:44: My position still remains that if it is acceptable for a player to spend that much of time away from monitoring or survelience, then there is no sense having any monitoring or survelience in the first place. It is fine if Kramnik likes to walk around inbetween moves, it is not ok for him to walking around off camera. That is not saying that I think Kramnik is cheating (I don't), but camera's were installed to ensure the integrity of the match. Therefore, spending a good deal of your time avoiding the camera's as Kramnik has done threatens the integrity of the match. He was on camera, even in the rest room, as far as I can tell from still images of the video available to the arbiter. The point is simple: months are spent arranging every last detail of the match conditions, and they should not be changed in the middle of the match, no matter how inconsequential it may appear. There have been plenty of games where neither player spends much time at the board (hypnotic stares and such). I imagine that the rest rooms will be unlocked before the next game. The real obstacle will be the match score. Well, this is all absurd, and I had hoped to be discussing a chess game today, and not more letters to FIDE. I follow the championship for the chess -- not to discuss contract law and the propriety of using the toilet X number of times per hour. Myself, I will dine on blueberry yogurt and hope for the best -- either the match shall be cancelled or it shall resume and my interest in it has died until then.


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Trevormkidd YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 26 Joined: 04/01/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #238 - 09/30/06 at 18:27:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think most of the arguments here line up along party lines. Lets be honest, John Nunn has had nothing good to say about the FIDE for a long time. In his last book of games Grandmaster Secrets Move by Move he spends a whole chapter blasting everything about the FIDE. and many GMs were very pissed at Topalov for supporting Kirsan in the last election. Now I agree with what Nunn said in that book in regards with to the FIDE. But it can hardly be said that is completely unbiased here. My position still remains that if it is acceptable for a player to spend that much of time away from monitoring or survelience, then there is no sense having any monitoring or survelience in the first place. It is fine if Kramnik likes to walk around inbetween moves, it is not ok for him to walking around off camera. That is not saying that I think Kramnik is cheating (I don't), but camera's were installed to ensure the integrity of the match. Therefore, spending a good deal of your time avoiding the camera's as Kramnik has done threatens the integrity of the match.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #237 - 09/30/06 at 15:11:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	I see your points and would love to agree with you Markovich, because that is the way it ideally should be. The problem lies however with the incompetence of FIDE and with the way the World Champion is decided. FIDE and it's appointed men have numerous times shown that they can't be trusted (I think recent happenings is a case in point), so people are rightfully suspicious. Why would they suddenly change the pre-arranged, contracted terms in a way that clearly favours one of the players when no wrongdoing has been found? I don't think it is fair to compare chess with other sports, except to point out the lack of autorithy of the sporting body. This is not the case in other sports. Combined with the fact that in chess the title hasn't really been owned by the sporting body but by the title-holders, it only causes problems. In my mind Geurt Gijssen is the referee, not the Committee. We are not going to agree on this, so let's respectfully agree to disagree.
	« Last Edit: 09/30/06 at 17:39:53 by Klick »
	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #236 - 09/30/06 at 15:08:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 09/30/06 at 14:31:05: Yes, I've read it Markovich. It's interesting reading, but I think it misses a crucial point: It stresses that Topalov is protesting the conduct or behavior of Kramnik. Then I ask, what is wrong with Kramnik's behaviour? Nothing at all. He likes to walk. It's all in in the mind of the Topalov team. [/quote] Ah yes, I understand now. >Since< Topalov's complaint is a priori invalid, >therefore< it is invalid. What possible validity could Topalov's complaint have had? None, since it was invalid. I see it so clearly now. The arbiters were blind to the invalidity of Topalov's complaint. What an injustice!! To hell with the match! Down with FIDE!!

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #235 - 09/30/06 at 14:50:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 09/30/06 at 14:41:07: Yes. Quote: This may not sound such a serious matter, but chess at the highest level is largely about psychology and the imposition of your will on the opponent. Achieving this away from the chessboard could easily be the first step towards doing the same on the board itself. Well then, what judgement rendered by duly appointed arbiters, no matter how trivial its effect and no matter how objectively rendered, is NOT subject to second-guessing and hysterical hair-tearing over the effect it may have on someone's ability to play the rest of his games? And is chess unique in this regard? It isn't the only sport that involves the Test of Wills and which demands deep concentration, and yet participannts in these other sports manage to make progress without questioning the right of their respective referees actually to make rulings. It is one thing to argue with a referee's decision and say that it was unfair; it's really quite another to refuse to play until he changes it.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #234 - 09/30/06 at 14:46:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	My previous post refers to the blog Markovich posted

	CastleRock
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #233 - 09/30/06 at 14:43:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	And assuming it is an on going conduct as the web page says, it can be on going during the game and 2 hrs limitatin still applies.

	CastleRock
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #232 - 09/30/06 at 14:41:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes. Quote: This may not sound such a serious matter, but chess at the highest level is largely about psychology and the imposition of your will on the opponent. Achieving this away from the chessboard could easily be the first step towards doing the same on the board itself.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #231 - 09/30/06 at 14:38:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 09/30/06 at 14:10:41: John Nunn's letter: Quote: The Kramnik – Topalov dispute In many disputes between top chess players, there is no clear right and wrong – forming a clear opinion from the letters of protest, contradictions and mutual accusations is virtually impossible. However, the Kramnik-Topalov case is an exception. etc., etc., etc. John Nunn Chess Director of Gambit Publications Dear me, I must lack some moral faculty possessed by John Nunn, since I fail to see that this is a moral issue at all, still less one that clearly favors one side or the other. I see only the necessity that chess matches, like other sporting competitions, be rule-governed; and that the decision of the referees, whatever the sport, must be final. I see only that if a contestant refuses to play when the time for competition is at hand, he must stand forfeit. The question of which one of these players is more beloved by FIDE is both a non sequitur and an implicit attack on FIDE. Well fine, Nunn is entitled to his opinion that FIDE is evil and conspires against Kramnik, but such a belief is totally inconsistent with anyone's agreement that FIDE should govern this match in the first place. Indeed if that is the case, FIDE should govern no chess competitions. So wonderful, let's just flush FIDE down Kramnik's toilet and let Nunn, Kramnik and whoever else has a third eye that perceives Right and Wrong, govern world chess. But if Nunn, Kramnik and others who possess this peculiar organ could see so clearly that FIDE was evil, why didn't they let the rest of us know about it before the start of this match? And let us, dear friends, once again return to the question of proportionality. There may be ethical principles at stake in anyone's bathroom privileges, but are they really so weighty as to warrant torpedoing a WC match in progress, with all the attendant damage to world chess that that entails?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Viking God Member Offline Posts: 673 Location: Norway Joined: 10/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #230 - 09/30/06 at 14:36:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 09/30/06 at 14:10:41: John Nunn's letter: Quote: . . . John Nunn Chess Director of Gambit Publications Well said John Nunn! Hopefully this letter reach FIDE - in time -, to make them open their eyes....


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #229 - 09/30/06 at 14:31:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, I've read it Markovich. It's interesting reading, but I think it misses a crucial point: It stresses that Topalov is protesting the conduct or behavior of Kramnik. Then I ask, what is wrong with Kramnik's behaviour? Nothing at all. He likes to walk. It's all in in the mind of the Topalov team. I think Topalov's actions are very questionable and the decisions of the Appeal Committee very very fishy. I hope you've all read Nunn's letter. I'd like to stress the following: Quote: Notice that not only has Kramnik not been proved to have done anything wrong, there isn’t even a single piece of evidence that he has done anything wrong. All he has done, apparently, is to wander in and out of his bathroom – a bathroom which, one must remember, was open to inspection at any time before the game.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #228 - 09/30/06 at 14:23:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Excellent miss not article by Nunn in chessbase http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3382

	CastleRock
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #227 - 09/30/06 at 14:16:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 09/29/06 at 23:33:45: The same applies for written contracts. Breach of contract and agreed terms is anarchy. True enough, but see this very persuasive argument: http://chessforblood.blogspot.com/2006/09/topalov-has-better-of-it_29.html

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #226 - 09/30/06 at 14:10:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	John Nunn's letter: Quote: The Kramnik – Topalov dispute In many disputes between top chess players, there is no clear right and wrong – forming a clear opinion from the letters of protest, contradictions and mutual accusations is virtually impossible. However, the Kramnik-Topalov case is an exception. We have to start with the background. Topalov and his team have worked closely with FIDE for some time. Topalov is the FIDE champion and he supported Ilyumzhinov’s re-election campaign. Kramnik, by contrast, is much more an outsider. His world championship title derived from Brain Games and then the PCA, so he has had much less contact with FIDE. The current match is FIDE organised and sponsored, and is being played in FIDE’s home territory of Kalmykia. To avoid any suspicion of favouritism, it would have made sense for all the match officials to be clearly independent and unbiased. Instead, what do we have? The Appeals committee consists of Georgios Makropoulos (Deputy President of FIDE), Zurab Azmaiparashvili (Vice-President of FIDE) and Jorge Vega (FIDE Continental President for the Americas) – a selection which can hardly inspire confidence in the impartiality of the Appeals Committee. Nor are the members of the Appeals Committee especially qualified for such a potentially sensitive post, since only one of the three (Vega) is an International Arbiter and only one (Azmaiparashvili) has any experience of high-level chess. The first extraordinary act was the handing over of the video of Kramnik in his rest room to Topalov’s team. This could easily be used against Kramnik, for example by seeing if he looked agitated after a particular move in the opening. This act was so obviously wrong that one can hardly imagine it being committed by an unbiased person. Next was the ‘toilet protest’ from Topalov’s team. Notice that not only has Kramnik not been proved to have done anything wrong, there isn’t even a single piece of evidence that he has done anything wrong. All he has done, apparently, is to wander in and out of his bathroom – a bathroom which, one must remember, was open to inspection at any time before the game. However, this didn’t stop the Appeals Committee from deciding to lock Kramnik’s bathroom. This may not sound such a serious matter, but chess at the highest level is largely about psychology and the imposition of your will on the opponent. Achieving this away from the chessboard could easily be the first step towards doing the same on the board itself. The organisers have stated that they do not believe Kramnik is cheating; in that case, where is the logic in punishing Kramnik by making a decision that is so obviously favourable to Topalov? Moreover, Topalov declared that he would not shake hands with Kramnik. There is no requirement in the Laws of Chess that the players shake hands before the game, but not to do so is a substantial insult. It is hard to avoid the impression that Topalov’s team realised that it would be an uphill struggle to win two games from eight (and against a player who went 15 games without loss against Garry Kasparov!) and decided to launch a psychological attack. Such tactics are far from unknown in top-level chess, but they are usually frustrated by the fair and common-sense approach of match officials, an approach which has been notably lacking in Elista. Not only was the actual decision of the Appeals Committee clearly wrong, it was also wrong to start Game 5 without any kind of agreement between the players. The result has been to plunge the whole match into crisis, since now that Topalov has been awarded Game 5 by default, it is hard to see him playing it again. Once again chess has shot itself in the foot; who will want to sponsor a top-level chess match if the whole thing can grind to a halt over a dispute about a toilet? At least when the 1984/5 Karpov-Kasparov match was controversially terminated by the then FIDE President Campomanes, the players had managed to entertain the chess public with 48 games before everything collapsed in chaos. Apparently today’s players only have the stamina to manage 4! John Nunn Chess Director of Gambit Publications

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #225 - 09/30/06 at 11:53:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have some legal training, and my first reaction to the Appeals Committee ruling was that it should be void for want of natural justice. Audi alteram partem is law everywhere in Europe i think, it means there is a need for all parties to be heard, and a chance must be given to Kramnik to argue his case before the decision is made. This applies not only in court, but also in other arbitral or quasi-judicial settings. How can there be justice if all parties are not heard? This is common sense, you don't even need first year law school. I'm not surprised therefore that Kramnik accuses the committee of bias.


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Trevormkidd YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 26 Joined: 04/01/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #224 - 09/30/06 at 10:23:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 09/29/06 at 21:32:22: MNb wrote on 09/29/06 at 21:19:43: These last lines say it all. I doubt seriously, if anyone involved, really wants to play this match. I can already hear the comments for the next couple of years. Topalov: I am the WCh, as Kramnik has refused to play. Kramnik: I am the WCh, 2-0 after four games. Do not ask me for FIDE-arguments: it has been a long time ago since I understood the actions and regulations of this organization. Yep that will be the outcome. Only I think that even with the 2-0 lead Kramnik's position is rather weak. IF he walks out no one will take him seriously as the WCh. It doesnt really matter what we as the insiders think, it matters how the rest sees it. It has been a couple years since I have really cared who was the "world champion." I considered Kramnik the world champion after he won in 2000. Seeing as he didn't play much and Kasparov had by far the highest rating I have considered him the "best" player in the world up until he retired. I then decided that the winner of San Luis would be the "world champion" fully expecting Anand to win, until I watched Topalov win in convincing fashion. The whole idea of the title has lost meaning thanks to the split in the chess world. I thought it would regain meaning with this reunification match, but even if the match finishes there is still a lot the FIDE has to work on in order to have a suitable method of crowning and challenging a "world champion." I don't have a lot of confidence in the FIDE in succeeding at that. So I have to ask to ask myself "does it really matter to me if their is a chess world champion?" Not really.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #223 - 09/30/06 at 09:03:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: That is a ridiculous statement; just consider what it would mean in any sport that is played in this world "Oh, I don't think that the referees in the next World Cup (or World Series of Baseball, or Grand Prix or whatever competition arouses your interest) should act >as referees<, but should rather work for >compromises<." Good grief! Well, you can live in your rule world all you want - chess players are individuals not teams owned and payed for by some billionaire, so it boils down to one thing: - Do the organisers want the match to continue or not? The WC match could just as well be compared with a business contract between two big companies - if one of the companies changes the contract unilaterally the other company would lose interest in the whole deal... Then they could sue each other for years, but the main result is that the deal is off. Anyway, the whole affair may actually be good for chess as a 'sport' - even swedish newspapers have now had some brief mentionings of the affair, which is more than the match Kasparov-Kramnik got! Maybe Kramnik can hit back by demanding Topalov's head searched for that famous implanted chip - and it may well get as good as '72!


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #222 - 09/30/06 at 01:39:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Maybe. But there is one thing all teachers know from experience: rewarding ill will - and that was without doubt the only motivation of Topalov's ridiculous complaint - stimulates ill behaviour the next time. This does not mean that I take Kramnik's side. Sitting for a locked toilet door belongs to the Ministry of Silly Walks.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #221 - 09/29/06 at 23:38:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 09/29/06 at 21:19:43: These last lines say it all. I doubt seriously, if anyone involved, really wants to play this match. I can already hear the comments for the next couple of years. Topalov: I am the WCh, as Kramnik has refused to play. Kramnik: I am the WCh, 2-0 after four games. Do not ask me for FIDE-arguments: it has been a long time ago since I understood the actions and regulations of this organization. Well, no matter his objective deservingness, Topalov should have the title and the $500,000. He is sitting at the board, waiting for his opponent's move. Unless Kramnik plays, there is no objective basis for any other outcome.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #220 - 09/29/06 at 23:33:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	The same applies for written contracts. Breach of contract and agreed terms is anarchy.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #219 - 09/29/06 at 23:32:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 09/29/06 at 20:59:14: Anyway, my point is that the arbiters/organisers should work for compromises not as referees. That is a ridiculous statement; just consider what it would mean in any sport that is played in this world "Oh, I don't think that the referees in the next World Cup (or World Series of Baseball, or Grand Prix or whatever competition arouses your interest) should act >as referees<, but should rather work for >compromises<." Good grief! TalJechin wrote on 09/29/06 at 20:59:14: Topalov knows the odds are against him and Kramnik doesn't need the prize money enough to swallow his pride Uncharitable speculation of this kind can hardly be the basis of the official conduct of FIDE arbiters. Any claim must be taken at face value. There must be an official, objective procedure for taking complaints and issuing rulings; there must be no question that a ruling, once given, stands. All else is anarchy.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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StuntLinguist YaBB Newbies Offline Pronouncer of strange and difficult words. Posts: 42 Location: columbia Joined: 10/09/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #218 - 09/29/06 at 22:24:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	3. 18. 3 After the World Chess Championship Committee agrees with the Organisers on the arrangements in respect of the tournament hall, facilities, accommodation and meals, transportation, telecommunication, ceremonies, etc., no objections from the participants shall be acceptable as long as the conditions are in accordance with the rights of the players granted in their agreemts.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #217 - 09/29/06 at 21:32:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 09/29/06 at 21:19:43: These last lines say it all. I doubt seriously, if anyone involved, really wants to play this match. I can already hear the comments for the next couple of years. Topalov: I am the WCh, as Kramnik has refused to play. Kramnik: I am the WCh, 2-0 after four games. Do not ask me for FIDE-arguments: it has been a long time ago since I understood the actions and regulations of this organization. Yep that will be the outcome. Only I think that even with the 2-0 lead Kramnik's position is rather weak. IF he walks out no one will take him seriously as the WCh. It doesnt really matter what we as the insiders think, it matters how the rest sees it.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #216 - 09/29/06 at 21:19:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	These last lines say it all. I doubt seriously, if anyone involved, really wants to play this match. I can already hear the comments for the next couple of years. Topalov: I am the WCh, as Kramnik has refused to play. Kramnik: I am the WCh, 2-0 after four games. Do not ask me for FIDE-arguments: it has been a long time ago since I understood the actions and regulations of this organization.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #215 - 09/29/06 at 20:59:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: If the rules say that, that is one thing. It's quite another to refuse to play just to try to hold the governing body's feet to the fire and thus produce a change in its ruling. There is no sport on the planet that could be governed if it tolerated that. And, as pointed out by another poster here, the match participants agreed that the decision of the arbiters would be final. Well, didn't Topalov 'hold the governing body's feet to the fire' with his complaint where he more or less threatened to quit the match if his demands were not met? At least that's how I'd interpret "Veselin Topalov is willing to continue his participation in the match provided that measures to guarantee fair play are taken." And arbiters that take decisions concerning both player's conditions without getting an agreement from both sides first will hardly be trusted by both sides. It's the old Fischer-Spassky all over again - the player prepared to quit the match first to get his demands met gains so much that the other side must be prepared to equal the threat if he can... So, now we have a 'chicken' race. Anyway, my point is that the arbiters/organisers should work for compromises not as referees. At least if they want the match to be completed. By their first ruling they've already created a stand off that will probably end the match. - Topalov knows the odds are against him and Kramnik doesn't need the prize money enough to swallow his pride.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #214 - 09/29/06 at 19:53:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 09/29/06 at 19:22:25: Still, chess isn't like other sports. For example, if I've understood the rules right (at least I've seen a couple of cases of the following in the swedish chess series) - if during a series game you have a conflict, ruled by the ref in one direction, then if you're intending to protest the ref's ruling to the rule committee you must refuse to continue to play the game - or else that result will stand no matter what the committee rules later on... If the rules say that, that is one thing. It's quite another to refuse to play just to try to hold the governing body's feet to the fire and thus produce a change in its ruling. There is no sport on the planet that could be governed if it tolerated that. And, as pointed out by another poster here, the match participants agreed that the decision of the arbiters would be final. Kramnik's latest statement (the one in which he appealed, anyway) says that he no longer trusts the arbitrators and wants to see them all replaced. Now honestly, how could FIDE agree to that? What is the rational basis for that? I keep returning, too, to the question of proportionality. It isn't as if they arbiters ruled that during his games, Kramnik has to sit under a dribble of ice water. They've only told him to use another bathroom.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #213 - 09/29/06 at 19:22:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Still, chess isn't like other sports. For example, if I've understood the rules right (at least I've seen a couple of cases of the following in the swedish chess series) - if during a series game you have a conflict, ruled by the ref in one direction, then if you're intending to protest the ref's ruling to the rule committee you must refuse to continue to play the game - or else that result will stand no matter what the committee rules later on...


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #212 - 09/29/06 at 18:36:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 09/29/06 at 18:25:55: Quote: Something similar happened a decade ago or so. I dont remember if it was the semis or the final of the CL. Marseille played at home against AC Milan. Iirc one lamppost didnt work and AC refused to play until that was remedied (it is in the UEFA rules that the field should be lighted according to certain specifications). The ref decided to play on and AC left the field. UEFA ruled that even though they may have been right about the issue itself they had to abide by the referee's decision and punished them rather heavily. I dont see any sporting organisation ruling otherwise. Yes in that case I agree, but how would they have ruled if Marseille demanded that the light should be turned off, and the ref never talked to the Milans about it before deciding to turn it off? In that case I suspect that the ref would be reprimanded as a referee must avoid to appear partial. If the ref awards a completely ridiculous penalty AC Milan still isnt within its rights to walk away. In your example I am fairly sure that they weaken their case by leaving the pitch.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #211 - 09/29/06 at 18:25:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Something similar happened a decade ago or so. I dont remember if it was the semis or the final of the CL. Marseille played at home against AC Milan. Iirc one lamppost didnt work and AC refused to play until that was remedied (it is in the UEFA rules that the field should be lighted according to certain specifications). The ref decided to play on and AC left the field. UEFA ruled that even though they may have been right about the issue itself they had to abide by the referee's decision and punished them rather heavily. I dont see any sporting organisation ruling otherwise. Yes in that case I agree, but how would they have ruled if Marseille demanded that the light should be turned off, and the ref never talked to the Milans about it before deciding to turn it off? In that case I suspect that the ref would be reprimanded as a referee must avoid to appear partial.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #210 - 09/29/06 at 18:10:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 09/29/06 at 17:59:57: Markovich wrote on 09/29/06 at 16:22:02: TalJechin wrote on 09/29/06 at 14:25:52: I think Kramnik did the right thing not to play. Surely he can't accept that his opponent is allowed to singlehandedly change things that both have agreed on beforehand. Going to the bathroom 50 times may sound strange as we're inclined to compare with a usual tm situation - but when you know there's a coffe machine and a tv showing the stage in the bathroom it's no wonder Kramnik pops in to see if Toppy has moved and perhaps fill up on coffe or water at the same time... As I have said in another thread, it simply can't be "the right thing" to refuse to play because you disagree with a ruling, particularly when the consequences of this ruling do not impede your ability to play. A ruling is a ruling, and we cannot have WC matches under any sort of governing body if such body is not to be recognized as the match arbiter. We can't have sporting events of any kind if the teams have the right to withhold their participation until the referees modify issued rulings. I will accept that one must sadly turn one's back on a competition that one discovers to be rigged. I reject completely the notion that the ruling issued in Elista evidences anything close to that. I think you must separate between a ruling made during play, and a ruling not during play accepting one player's demands without asking the opponent. Especially when accepting that demand, you implicitly infer that the other part has done something wrong (otherwise they would have made an agreement with Kramnik before making any changes). As it is, Toppy will have a psychological advantage as he got his will through. And if he can do that, maybe he can demand more changes in the next game. E.g should Kramnik keep playing if on Toppy's demand they're both given low stools to sit on instead of chairs? Surely it wouldn't affect his playing ability... Something similar happened a decade ago or so. I dont remember if it was the semis or the final of the CL. Marseille played at home against AC Milan. Iirc one lamppost didnt work and AC refused to play until that was remedied (it is in the UEFA rules that the field should be lighted according to certain specifications). The ref decided to play on and AC left the field. UEFA ruled that even though they may have been right about the issue itself they had to abide by the referee's decision and punished them rather heavily. I dont see any sporting organisation ruling otherwise.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #209 - 09/29/06 at 18:10:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	As I stated in the Toilet thread Kramnik is not innocent of psychological warfare himself. He purpously belittled Topalov during the press conference after the fourth game. Not a very nice thing to do! I think this sparked off a nasty bit of psychology fromt the T-team. Otherwise they would have protested about Kramniks Toilet visits -during the third game- before and not after the fourth game.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #208 - 09/29/06 at 17:59:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 09/29/06 at 16:22:02: TalJechin wrote on 09/29/06 at 14:25:52: I think Kramnik did the right thing not to play. Surely he can't accept that his opponent is allowed to singlehandedly change things that both have agreed on beforehand. Going to the bathroom 50 times may sound strange as we're inclined to compare with a usual tm situation - but when you know there's a coffe machine and a tv showing the stage in the bathroom it's no wonder Kramnik pops in to see if Toppy has moved and perhaps fill up on coffe or water at the same time... As I have said in another thread, it simply can't be "the right thing" to refuse to play because you disagree with a ruling, particularly when the consequences of this ruling do not impede your ability to play. A ruling is a ruling, and we cannot have WC matches under any sort of governing body if such body is not to be recognized as the match arbiter. We can't have sporting events of any kind if the teams have the right to withhold their participation until the referees modify issued rulings. I will accept that one must sadly turn one's back on a competition that one discovers to be rigged. I reject completely the notion that the ruling issued in Elista evidences anything close to that. I think you must separate between a ruling made during play, and a ruling not during play accepting one player's demands without asking the opponent. Especially when accepting that demand, you implicitly infer that the other part has done something wrong (otherwise they would have made an agreement with Kramnik before making any changes). As it is, Toppy will have a psychological advantage as he got his will through. And if he can do that, maybe he can demand more changes in the next game. E.g should Kramnik keep playing if on Toppy's demand they're both given low stools to sit on instead of chairs? Surely it wouldn't affect his playing ability...


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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #207 - 09/29/06 at 17:03:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, it is quite tragic to see the match take this turn of events. I must say that I can understand Kramnik's actions -- there are tapes of the bathroom (which were turned over to the Topalov camp, if I understand chessbase's take on things -- a truly insulting turn of events) which found nothing suspecious, and yet Topalov's complaint was upheld. There is, frankly, a reason why it takes months to agree to the terms of a match down to the minutiae of bathrooms, cooks, and the floor plan of their cottages. To change things in the middle of the match, on the basis a wild complaint by one player against another (go look at the move which Topalov's camp highlights) is not something to take lightly. It is, apparently, known that Kramnik goes to the bathroom many times during the match -- there are comments of Keene (on an on-line board, so it is not clear that these are legit) that Kramnik did exactly the same thing during the match with Kasparov (can anyone verify this?) which suggests some need. Of course, it is not difficult to assume that this was one of the conditions he then insisted upon for the match... Nevertheless, it would be very sad to see the match cancelled, but, as in May, this looks most likely. While I do not argue as strongly as Markovich, I think that Kramnik should have made clear the degree of insult and insanity after (winning) the game...regardless of what happends now, it is clear that this gambit has worked for Topalov. Kramnik to the press: Quote: Makropolous and Azmaiparashvili are very good friends of Danailov. Their actions are clearly biased in favor of Topalov. The decision to grant Danailov full access to videotapes is incorrect and outrageous. I did not sign the contract for acting in a reality show. This goes against all ethical norms and violates my privacy. I am ready to continue the match and play the 5th game tomorrow on the conditions that were accepted prior to the start of the match. My dignity does not allow me to stand this situation. Now I am going to return to my cottage and rest. From Carsten Hensel's letter: Quote: The reasons that Mr. Kramnik is entering his own bathroom often is simple: The restroom is small and Mr. Kramnik likes to walk and therefore uses the space of the bathroom as well. The Appeals Committee has been informed about the issue before they decided. It should also be mentioned that Mr. Kramnik has to drink a lot of water during the games. It looks like Kirsan has already replied urging the players to...play.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #206 - 09/29/06 at 16:42:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Mortal Games wrote on 09/29/06 at 16:24:54: I agree with TalJechin, because if both players agree with conditions beforehand, one of them cannot claim to change the rules in the middle of the match. This only happens because FIDE is a weak federation without organization, because in tennis when a player asks for a toilet break, an arbiter goes with him and no problem at all, rules are clear and all agree, end of story. In tennis such claims will end in 2-0 Kramnik world champion and Topalov suspended, but we cannot forget that we are in the chess world where everything is possible! There are only two scenarios: 1-Or Topalov team do not have brains to see outside 64 squares that this situation could take place and this is only a strategic error of his team without reason to claim whatsoever. 2-This is a trick maybe an idea of a psycologist of Topalov team to unsetle Kramnik because fighting outside the board is the only place to try to win a lost match. This is the continuation of the same strategy that as been used by Topalov to prolong the games at maximum to try to win in the second half of the match. In the last game, Topalov was still playing when there was nothing to play and Kramnik saw this and said he was waiting for the end of the match to see some football games of champions league! I hope to see in the near future, new players like Magnus Carlsen without having to deal with these problems and a better federation and chess organization like in tennis, that will be a proud to all chess fans and not a shame to all or a traditional shame that passes from generation to generation and chess loosing each day. Well, I fail to see how the supposed weakness of FIDE could, under anyone's concept of sportsmanship or fairness, entitle a player to refuse to continue a match because he doesn't like one of its rulings. You assume what is to be proved: that the complaint was utterly invalid and the ruling fundamentally unfair. I have not seen facts, either in your post or any other today, that would substantiate either one of those claims. I have only seen a lot of circular reasoning, where the one claim is offered as evidence of the other, and then the reverse! How under any world governing body that you might care to hypothesize, could we approve of players breaking off matches on the ground that a ruling had gone against them?! That is not a recipe for a strong governing body, but a weak one. It seems to me indeed that by making this demand, Kramnik is the one who's searching out FIDE's supposed weakness.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Mortal Games God Member Offline Posts: 587 Joined: 07/24/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #205 - 09/29/06 at 16:24:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	I agree with TalJechin, because if both players agree with conditions beforehand, one of them cannot claim to change the rules in the middle of the match. This only happens because FIDE is a weak federation without organization, because in tennis when a player asks for a toilet break, an arbiter goes with him and no problem at all, rules are clear and all agree, end of story. In tennis such claims will end in 2-0 Kramnik world champion and Topalov suspended, but we cannot forget that we are in the chess world where everything is possible! There are only two scenarios: 1-Or Topalov team do not have brains to see outside 64 squares that this situation could take place and this is only a strategic error of his team without reason to claim whatsoever. 2-This is a trick maybe an idea of a psycologist of Topalov team to unsetle Kramnik because fighting outside the board is the only place to try to win a lost match. This is the continuation of the same strategy that as been used by Topalov to prolong the games at maximum to try to win in the second half of the match. In the last game, Topalov was still playing when there was nothing to play and Kramnik saw this and said he was waiting for the end of the match to see some football games of champions league! I hope to see in the near future, new players like Magnus Carlsen without having to deal with these problems and a better federation and chess organization like in tennis, that will be a proud to all chess fans and not a shame to all or a traditional shame that passes from generation to generation and chess loosing each day.

	It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses. It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #204 - 09/29/06 at 16:22:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 09/29/06 at 14:25:52: I think Kramnik did the right thing not to play. Surely he can't accept that his opponent is allowed to singlehandedly change things that both have agreed on beforehand. Going to the bathroom 50 times may sound strange as we're inclined to compare with a usual tm situation - but when you know there's a coffe machine and a tv showing the stage in the bathroom it's no wonder Kramnik pops in to see if Toppy has moved and perhaps fill up on coffe or water at the same time... As I have said in another thread, it simply can't be "the right thing" to refuse to play because you disagree with a ruling, particularly when the consequences of this ruling do not impede your ability to play. A ruling is a ruling, and we cannot have WC matches under any sort of governing body if such body is not to be recognized as the match arbiter. We can't have sporting events of any kind if the teams have the right to withhold their participation until the referees modify issued rulings. I will accept that one must sadly turn one's back on a competition that one discovers to be rigged. I reject completely the notion that the ruling issued in Elista evidences anything close to that.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #203 - 09/29/06 at 14:25:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think Kramnik did the right thing not to play. Surely he can't accept that his opponent is allowed to singlehandedly change things that both have agreed on beforehand. Going to the bathroom 50 times may sound strange as we're inclined to compare with a usual tm situation - but when you know there's a coffe machine and a tv showing the stage in the bathroom it's no wonder Kramnik pops in to see if Toppy has moved and perhaps fill up on coffe or water at the same time...


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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #202 - 09/29/06 at 13:36:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Both players are behaving like children! I laughed when I saw this pathetic accusation by the Toppa team. Kramnik should feel proud by getting so far into the head of Toppy and his team that they have had to resort to such tactics. Now Kramnik takes this incident to an extreme to the point where the whole match may be in danger! I can say this though....if the match gets canceled you can forget about a reunification match between these two guys! This is very bad for chess! It would seem the match gets cancelled people are starting to smile
	« Last Edit: 09/29/06 at 18:16:36 by Buzz »

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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #201 - 09/29/06 at 10:41:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 09/29/06 at 10:20:47: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3374 Starts to look I was right in my prediction of a cancellation. I wanted Kramnik to win. If he stops playing, my respect for him will only go up.

	CastleRock
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #200 - 09/29/06 at 10:20:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3374 Starts to look I was right in my prediction of a cancellation.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #199 - 09/29/06 at 10:06:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well this is all very entertaining but nothing more than a distraction from the real business really. From a cynical point of view it does make sense for the Topalov team to try and change the psychological atmosphere of the match, but I suspect if anything it will unsettle Topalov as much as Kramnik. In fact I think both of them are well able to handle the situation and can see through these games, so it should have little effect on the pattern of the match. Today once again Topalov is facing the threat of 3-0 and anihilation - I suspect he will be happy to defend against the Catalan again, possible with a different variation this time.


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #198 - 09/29/06 at 04:04:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stormcrow, When I voted that the match would get cancelled, I did so back in May. I never got the chance to change my vote when Kramnik regained his health over the summer. The charge of Kramnik cheating somehow has to be forgotten after the gaffes made in the second game. I wonder how many times I go to the bathroom during a match. I drink lots of water and get up quite often. Kramnik probably has me beat, but then if he was cheating, wouldn't he stay in the bathroom for longer intervals instead of going in and out as often as the Topalov team has counted? Maybe Toppy's parapsychologist has given Kramnik a urinary infection?


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #197 - 09/28/06 at 19:21:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	I was surprised to see how many people voted that the match would be cancelled on this poll, but maybe they were on to something as it seems to be back on the cards! Maybe they should just move the board into the "relaxation room" so that Kramnik would have the best of both worlds! Just kidding.


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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #196 - 09/28/06 at 18:48:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	lnn2 wrote on 09/28/06 at 14:08:26: Kramnik cheating?? Danailov press release claims Kramnik visited bathroom more than 50 times: http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/event/kratop06/kratoppress.html Looking at the games, i'm not sure if Kramnik was cheating... certainly many of his moves are not first choice moves by the computer. This is a really low blow by the Topalov team. There are many legitiamte reasons for going to the bathroom frequently. I myself for reasons I could never understand find that I have to visit the bathroom innumerable times during a tournament game.

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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woofwoof God Member Offline chess is like life Posts: 929 Location: Singapore Joined: 07/04/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #195 - 09/28/06 at 18:36:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	"Kramnik Loo Attack-Topalov defence"

	"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #194 - 09/28/06 at 17:05:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote author=lnn2 link=1148578544/180#192 date=1159462625] We'll call this Topalov's Toilet Variation (or should it be Toilet Gambit?!).[/quote] "The WC variation" seems more appropriate, no ? Besides, there is already a "Toilet variation".


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #193 - 09/28/06 at 16:58:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Mea Culpa 'and' should have been 'or'. That said TJ, my original post says this and it was omitted by you while quoting me. Quote: I was meaning to post this once Topalov’s bloated and ugly ego took a beating. Your post, SF, made me prophesize earlier. Grin

	CastleRock
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #192 - 09/28/06 at 16:57:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Klick wrote on 09/28/06 at 14:19:00: This just reflects badly on Danailov. I suspect they haven't even asked Kramnik about it. It might be an attempt at unsettling Kramnik psychologically. We are used to such attempts from earlier WC-matches. We'll call this Topalov's Toilet Variation (or should it be Toilet Gambit?!). The Toilet line gives a slight advantage for White (ie. the one who initiated the complications, Topalov), especially if there was sufficient home preparation. But with accurate defence, Black can manage to draw, or even win if White tries too hard


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #191 - 09/28/06 at 16:07:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 09/28/06 at 15:53:05: he won the title from Kasparov and retained it against Leko and Topalov! Has any other world champion won and defended his title against an opposition this formidable? Quote: Uhm beating Leko? I guess Botwinnik beat Bronstein then Quote: Second person! Where have I said Kramnik beat Leko? *'Has any other world champion won* and defended his title against an opposition this formidable?'** Actually, some world champions can boast about more than beating the previous champ, drawing his 2nd match and leading a third match...


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #190 - 09/28/06 at 15:53:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 09/28/06 at 12:14:23: castlerock wrote on 09/28/06 at 04:54:12: he won the title from Kasparov and retained it against Leko and Topalov! Has any other world champion won and defended his title against an opposition this formidable? Uhm beating Leko? I guess Botwinnik beat Bronstein then Second person! Where have I said Kramnik beat Leko?

	CastleRock
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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #189 - 09/28/06 at 14:54:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote author=Willempie link=1148578544/180#186 date=1159453059] Yeah but now I make the comparison. And I am a well known chess authority, therefore to be taken much more seriously ;D [/quote] Just so you know : I'm not going to touch that... I've had enough fights on this forum! P.S. Kramnik would be an ididot to attempt cheating and it's even more idiotic to accuse him of it.


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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #188 - 09/28/06 at 14:50:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	I look for Toppy to draw next game and to really come out swinging as white in game #6. I think game #6 is a must win situation because the draw puts Toppy too far behind with too little few games left. I would suspect Kramnick to start getting super solid so it shall be interesting to see what Toppy has cooked up for game #6!


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #187 - 09/28/06 at 14:19:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	This just reflects badly on Danailov. I suspect they haven't even asked Kramnik about it. It might be an attempt at unsettling Kramnik psychologically. We are used to such attempts from earlier WC-matches.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #186 - 09/28/06 at 14:17:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote author=Uberdeker link=1148578544/180#184 date=1159446223]At the end of the Kramnik-Leko match I made the same shallow comparison -only with regard to the result. Iakov Murey lunged out at me "How dare you compare Bronstein with Leko?! Who is Leko?? He is nobody!!"[/quote] Yeah but now I make the comparison. And I am a well known chess authority, therefore to be taken much more seriously ;D Plus of course Leko isnt in the same league as Bronstein. After all Bronstein needed Boleslavsky to slow down in the candidates tournament so they could finish shared first. Leko only won it directly ;)

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #185 - 09/28/06 at 14:08:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik cheating?? Danailov press release claims Kramnik visited bathroom more than 50 times: http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/event/kratop06/kratoppress.html Looking at the games, i'm not sure if Kramnik was cheating... certainly many of his moves are not first choice moves by the computer.


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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #184 - 09/28/06 at 12:23:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	At the end of the Kramnik-Leko match I made the same shallow comparison -only with regard to the result. Iakov Murey lunged out at me "How dare you compare Bronstein with Leko?! Who is Leko?? He is nobody!!"


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #183 - 09/28/06 at 12:14:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 09/28/06 at 04:54:12: Let’s assume, Kramnik has already won this match. This would mean, he won the title from Kasparov and retained it against Leko and Topalov! Has any other world champion won and defended his title against an opposition this formidable? Drawnik? Pitiable. I was meaning to post this once Topalov’s bloated and ugly ego took a beating. Your post, SF, made me prophesize earlier. Uhm beating Leko? I guess Botwinnik beat Bronstein then

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #182 - 09/28/06 at 11:33:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Though I voted Kramnik, I hope Topalov will win game 5 or 6. Else the match will peter out, I am afraid. Like everybody else I think 12 games way too little. Alas the nickname Drawnik is a bit deserved. Kramnik draws 53% of his games, which is a lot compared to Topalov's 43% and Kasparov's 41%. Still it is far less than Spassky's and Leko's 58%. Of course Ulfje holds the record with a proud 63% - the man should abandon OTB and focus on corr chess.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #181 - 09/28/06 at 10:34:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Regarding match tactics, I think Toppy must be happy if he can draw again the next game 5 with Black. There is still no need for desperation measures. If this happens, I really do feel though that he needs to register a point with White in game 6. If not there will be just 6 games remaining and he needs to get +2 out of it. We see now the somewhat unfortunate nature of a short 12 game match - in a 24 game match there is much more time to settle and recover. How and ever here we are, big questions are being asked of Topalov now, and if he manages to recover this situation I think even Castlerock will have to admit it will be a great pointer to chess ability and character.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #180 - 09/28/06 at 09:51:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 09/28/06 at 04:54:12: Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/28/06 at 00:02:36: I hate the moniker "Drawnik" for Kramnik. He's one of the most dynamic players of all time, and destroyed (yes destroyed) Kasparov in a match that few gave him any chances to win. Let’s assume, Kramnik has already won this match. This would mean, he won the title from Kasparov and retained it against Leko and Topalov! Has any other world champion won and defended his title against an opposition this formidable? Drawnik? Pitiable. Well, Kramnik-Leko ended 7-7 so Kramnik didn't really 'win' that match. And the present match is not even half way thru so it seems a bit early to sing his praise just yet...


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #179 - 09/28/06 at 04:54:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/28/06 at 00:02:36: I hate the moniker "Drawnik" for Kramnik. He's one of the most dynamic players of all time, and destroyed (yes destroyed) Kasparov in a match that few gave him any chances to win. Let’s assume, Kramnik has already won this match. This would mean, he won the title from Kasparov and retained it against Leko and Topalov! Has any other world champion won and defended his title against an opposition this formidable? Drawnik? Pitiable. I was meaning to post this once Topalov’s bloated and ugly ego took a beating. Your post, SF, made me prophesize earlier.

	CastleRock
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #178 - 09/28/06 at 01:56:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	I agree its curious why Topa is avoiding 6. Ne5 against the main Slav, since that is the move to expect from such a theoretical monster. Now in round 4 he even avoided the Slav altogether with 4. e3. Is the Slav so scary? From the perspective of a white 1. d4 player I feel comfortable with 6. Ne5, and doubt that Black has a completely equalising line (probably best is 11.... f6 where there is still room for some refinements, the other lines are just += at least). Perhaps Topalov (as Black in the next round) should check 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 move order. Playing reversed colours with Kramnik will allow him to find out the weaknesses in Kramnik's repertoire, there is some precedent in KK matches. Of course this match is rather short for such a strategy but still...


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #177 - 09/28/06 at 00:02:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topnotch, You've made some very insightful comments (that is to say that I agree with you). There is a tie-break day scheduled, but we may never have to worry about that. I thought today's game was the most clear-cut draw of the match so far. I know the players mixed things up a bit, but it was pretty clear the result was decided fairly early on. I hate the moniker "Drawnik" for Kramnik. He's one of the most dynamic players of all time, and destroyed (yes destroyed) Kasparov in a match that few gave him any chances to win. Now, people are complaining that Kramnik is winning because Topalov makes mistakes. Here's the bad news: In order to win at chess, your opponent has to make mistakes! Topalov could play a perfect game and only draw. I like these human battles. I rarely review the games that computers play against each other but I watch most matches and tournaments involving the best human players in the world. Am I alone? Apparently not since as many as 20,000 may have watched game 2 live on various websites and many more probably have seen it since.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #176 - 09/27/06 at 22:31:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	We won't see the KID since Kramnik could and probably would play dxe5 swap Queens and draw. It really is a pity that Topa blew those first 2 games, as I was longing to see how Kramnik's style would change when needing to win. Perhaps Topa will need to resort to the Dutch or Modern Benoni/Benko if things become even more desperate. Does anyone know what happens in the unlikely event of a drawn match? Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Accolon YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 26 Joined: 08/19/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #175 - 09/27/06 at 22:09:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	I`m also curious what Kramnik has prepared against Ne5 in the main line Slav Defence. Kramnik played this line with white very often. Maybe that`s why Topalov and his team avoid it. I think Kramnik will answer e4 with the Petrov. d4 seems the best way for Topa to create winning chances. It`s too early imho to play the KID or MBO, since a 3 point lead would be decisive. Though Karpov one time managed to beat Kasparov 3 times in a row to even the score.


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #174 - 09/27/06 at 17:28:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'd be surprised if Kramnik deviated from the Catalan in his next few whites--it seems like a safe way to play for an edge without too much risk, which is perfect considering his match position. The interesting story with Kramnik/white-Topalov/black is how long Topa will stick with the Catalan before deciding to switch to more desperate measures--Modern Benoni, KID, etc.. I would very much like to see that soon so we can have more fireworks! Topalov/white-Kramnik/black is an interesting duel. I'm wondering what Kramnik would have vs. the Ne5 main line in the Classical Slav...has he found a drawing line he likes in the Bishop sac variation, or has he patched up the Morozevich or found something in Nb6 that suits him? I hope Topalov gives this a punt soon! On the other hand, I can't help feeling that Topalov could find some positions that suit him in the Classical Slav e3 and Meran lines to pose fresh problems for Kramnik! 1.e4 seems less and less probable as the match develops, but we shall see...maybe a bomb is waiting to be dropped there!


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woofwoof God Member Offline chess is like life Posts: 929 Location: Singapore Joined: 07/04/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #173 - 09/27/06 at 16:59:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Drawnik wants a draw, so Drawnik plays for a draw. Hard fought not that both were fighting to win....rather the case of Toppa trying to avoid the drawing tactics & find a way around it, which he failed. Nothing really tangible to attack or sac today. Krammo was more interested in trying to find ways to exchange pieces rather than come out with an active plan of his own.

	"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #172 - 09/27/06 at 16:00:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	They are still playing but it looks drawish to me - assuming a draw Kramnik can be happy with a good defence, likewise Toppy must not panic, there is still time....


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #171 - 09/27/06 at 12:29:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	interesting... when i played the Meran i thought 8. Bd3 Bb7 9. a3 was rather irritating, not because Black cannot equalise with normal moves, but because it's so hard to generate winning chances with Black, Actually 8... Bb7 9. a3 is one reason for me to prefer 8... a6, but Black has recently encountered a few problems in the Blumenfeld 8... a6 9. e4 c5 10. e5 cxd4..


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #170 - 09/27/06 at 12:22:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, the dust is beginning to clear and it is clear Toppy has obviously analysed this positional pawn sac deeply at home 21. Kg1! is a great psychological move - as much as saying to Kramnik - "I have all the time in the world"


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Paul123 Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 109 Location: USA Joined: 11/01/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #169 - 09/27/06 at 12:07:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Castlerock… … For some reason I had forgotten about that last game. Probably do duh...! (I mean due.... to the point made by Taljechin. Imo when playing for a draw it seems to backfire a lot. (at least for me) We all have seen that tactic implode on the world stage. I think the biggest of all time was Kasparov vs. Karpov, where all Karpov had to do was draw the final game to retain the title. This is imo Topalov’s only chance to get into the match. i.e. Kramnik starts playing for draws and starts dropping a game here and there…
	« Last Edit: 09/27/06 at 20:57:22 by Paul123 »

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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #168 - 09/27/06 at 11:41:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well call me old fashioned, but as White I prefer to keep that pawn in front of my king! This surely cannot be Toppy prep can it? If so I just dont get it, no more comments from me now until well into the game....


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #167 - 09/27/06 at 11:28:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	15.Bf3!? allowing Kramnik to take a pawn on h2 with check! I like it ...But what about 15...Bxh2+ 16.Kh1 h5!? surely Kramnik will invest a bit of time looking at this.... ...or else someone will tell me this is all theory


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #166 - 09/27/06 at 11:21:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Early days game 4 - I know little of the theory but Toppy looks to have chosen a sensible line against the Semi-Slav. I´d take the position after 14.Nd2 for White any day, looks possible to squeeze nicely - is Toppy trying to do an imitation of Kramnik? Seriously though, anyone else find it feels unpleasant for Black?


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #165 - 09/27/06 at 09:49:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	The interviews were very revealing alright - Topalov seems to be in optimistic mood, as I suppose he has to be. For me he has every reason to be! The momentum is with him, he just needs to start registering the points. TopNotch & Castlerock - before the match started I would have agreed with your analysis that 2-0 at this point was curtains, but lets be realistic here - the reality is that the score could be very different and the play has been volatile to say the least - Topalov has already achieved one completely winning position so he has every reason to be optimistic - I cant see Kramnik closing this one out with the deadly sequence of draws he got against an out of sorts Kasparov. No, the big danger for Toppy now is a Kramnik win, which would in effect be curtains for him. He is on the edge at the moment, no question, but if he can register the next win then it is very much game on and I see no reason why not!


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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #164 - 09/27/06 at 09:20:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Also e3e5 analysis are fine. http://www.e3e5.com/eng/petersburg/competitions/article.html?240

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Viking God Member Offline Posts: 673 Location: Norway Joined: 10/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #163 - 09/27/06 at 09:08:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	In addition to Marin's exellent analysis at chessbase, Peter Svidler also does a good job at chesspro.ru. I liked his comment that the second game was "a very HUMAN Masterpiece"... Chess played by humans is more than just raw variations (as for computers)...


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #162 - 09/27/06 at 08:53:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well said, TopNotch. That’s what I meant in my previous post, far less eloquently. Kramnik’s play deserves more credit than what he is given (14th World champion in the year 2007 deserves it. Forgive me, Keano!! ) and Topalov doesn’t deserve the admonition.

	CastleRock
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #161 - 09/27/06 at 07:26:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Dennis Monokroussos gives some good analysis to the games on his blog. Clearly he uses a powerful chess engine to assist in his search for the absolute truth, my only gripe is that he criticises the decisions of the players too harshly, biased no doubt by the conclusions of his silicon helper, and as such his analysis lacks a certain human perspective and judgement. For these reasons I much prefer GM Mihail Marin's commentary of game three on Chessbase.com. Regarding this infamous mate in three that Topalov missed in game two, it transpires that many GM's and IM's kibitzing on ICC and Playchess also missed it. For some reason the key move Qc7 seemed counter intuitive for the human mind, probably because there was an alternative which visually placed the attacking forces even closer to the opposing King. Intuitively Topa's choice felt and looked correct, but rather than confirm his intuition he played impulsively. To get a more realistic feel for how difficult chess really is, try annotating a game without a strong engine by your side and see how it affects your decision making. Also check the analysis of games in Informator before the Fritz and Shredder days and you will see what I mean. In an interview on Chessbase, the players themselves give an account of what transpired thus far in the match, and I dare say its quite revealing stuff and a must read for 'real' chessplayers. Give both players a break, remember to err is human. Topster

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #160 - 09/27/06 at 07:22:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	castlerock wrote on 09/27/06 at 05:01:45: @Paul123 Is it not the other way around? Leko wanted to hold on to a draw in the last game of the match and Kramnik produced brilliant chess to win when it mattered. In that match both players played hard for the draw when they were in the lead...


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #159 - 09/27/06 at 05:01:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/27/06 at 03:01:41: (Unfortunately, this age is already dying out as more and more patzers pretend to think while their computers do all the work.) Very True. That blunder required Qc7 follow up. It comes by instantly if you have a silicon monster! According to this report, not just Topalov & Kramnik, quite a few GM’s (who didn’t have computer at the precise moment?) missed it too. http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3366 @Paul123 Is it not the other way around? Leko wanted to hold on to a draw in the last game of the match and Kramnik produced brilliant chess to win when it mattered.

	CastleRock
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #158 - 09/27/06 at 04:29:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	History has shown that World Championship matches are always tense nervy affairs, and the use of chess engines while kibitzing this match gives a warped sense of the play. Try kibitzing without an engine running in the background and you get a better feel for what's going on between these two players. To my mind both players are getting unfairly vilified for missing wins and strong continuations invariably found and verified by chess programs. Listening to commentary of game three on ICC, Kramnik was criticised for capturing with cxd5 instead of exd5 which by all accounts gave a big advantage, however the complications after e4 in response to exd5 were difficult to assess when low on time and with a two game cushion why would one take the risk. I don't think that game three was indicative of poor form on Kramnik's part, but rather a calm and practical decision under the circumstances. When in doubt, bail out.....seems to be Kramnik's mantra and had Topalov done the same in game 1 he wouldn't be forced to go for broke now in every game. Those that think Topalov has any realistic chances of bouncing back now are dreaming. Much more likely is that Topalov will gain some much needed match experience from this encounter and employ the lessons learned in a return match sometime in the future. To Topa's credit, this is a much more interesting and thrilling match than Kramnik-Leko ever was. Win lose or draw, Topa is an exciting player to watch, reminiscent of when Kasparov dominated the boards not so long ago, lets hope that the rest of the match continues to be as entertaining. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Paul123 Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 109 Location: USA Joined: 11/01/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #157 - 09/27/06 at 03:53:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	The optimistic side of me loves Topalov’s dynamic play. The guy can really mix it up and plays some of the best fighting chess I’ve seen in years. That said, the practical side say’s Kramnik is the stronger chess player. When Kramnik get the positional side of his play rolling on all cylinders I don’t think he can be beat. That element is imo what has been missing from his games in the last couple of years. It appears he has found it again …bad for Topalov Yea, Topalov had some winning chances, but he didn't follow through for the win...heck he lost...Kramnik weathering the storm technique shouldn't be down played With it being a 12 game match…. I’d expect Kramnik will start playing drawish lines….yet we all have seen this tactic backfire even at local tournaments…. and if I'm not mistaken didn't he try to do that with Leko and got in trouble?


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #156 - 09/27/06 at 03:08:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano~ You were right about David Beckham (with previously noted reservations), but your man Topalov still needs to find mates in 3. Ok, he missed the mate in 3 after some of the most brilliant chess we've ever seen, but still... As long as Kramnik has a better line in the Slav than he showed in game 2, then my money's on the front-runner! Toppy will not only have to win as White, but also dent Kramnik's nearly invincible play when Toppy's Black.


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #155 - 09/27/06 at 03:01:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	MarinFan, Thanks for the wesbiste and the information. I like the notes to the game because the writer recognises how hard it is to play a great game of chess as opposed to kibbitzing with the aid of a computer. I was a bit surprised that Kramnik didn't push harder with White today (9/26). I agree that we are already at one of the critical points in the match. If Kramnik wins, regardless of Topalov's play, the match is virtually over. If it's a draw, then how the opponents played will probably determine the momentum for the next few games. If Topalov wins, it's anybody's match again. I love being a spectator to some of the best chess ever played! As I said during Kasparov's reign, we are living in the Golden Age of Chess. (Unfortunately, this age is already dying out as more and more patzers pretend to think while their computers do all the work.)


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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #154 - 09/26/06 at 19:41:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	I just finished up the workday at the office and rush to the comp. to see how things went and 1/2 is the result. This is good for Toppa since , as some have already stated, it gives him the chance to right the ship. I would venture to say that Toppa comes out with guns blazing in game #4. What will be even more interesting is to see if Kramnik comes out and tries to go for the throat or lays back and plays for draws......time will tell!


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Viking God Member Offline Posts: 673 Location: Norway Joined: 10/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #153 - 09/26/06 at 18:30:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	In a interview on the official web site it is stated that there is one person in Topalov's team that is a parapsychologist! What role does he take in the match I wonder? Are we back to the Karpov-Kortsjnoi days?


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woofwoof God Member Offline chess is like life Posts: 929 Location: Singapore Joined: 07/04/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #152 - 09/26/06 at 16:35:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	My money will still be on Drawnik to play for draws from now on . That's what a Petrosian would do! He neednt play for wins anymore. Just keep forcing draws & capitalising on whatever mistakes Toppa might make once he gets desperate & tries to force the issue. For the sake of chess, I really do hope for Toppa to do a Fischer '72. Being 2-0 down, Fischer seemed more stimulated rather than discouraged & played some truly memorable games where he completely outplayed Spassky. Games 3, 6 & 10 in particular.

	"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #151 - 09/26/06 at 16:02:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	strong words Castlerock. the momentum is with my man Toppy, so lets just wait and see what happens. I admit one more slip-up and he can forget it, but the important thing is he is creating the opportunities and that can be the hardest thing .... As for Kramnik taking a draw on his own terms, that was a position he should have at least made Toppy suffer, instead by all accounts he got very short of time and then forced a perpetual in a position where he had already gone wrong. All the evidence suggests to me that Kramnik is not in top form for this match....however the score is 2-0. Previously I thought a 2-0 score for Kramnik was end of match in a 12 game match, but on this evidence I still give Topalov a good shout at the comeback.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #150 - 09/26/06 at 15:58:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik had a better position through out the game and took the draw on his terms. (Why not?) Hardly encouraging for Topalov. I thought (especially, after game 2) Topalov will have the normal human doubts and his risk taking abilities will take back seat, unless something worthwhile happens for him in game 3. Ditto for Kramnik. He had the scores and not the confidence associated with it. This game has, imo, changed things for better for him. My money is on Kramnik and I won't be surprised if the match winds up in 10 games

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #149 - 09/26/06 at 15:39:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes - if Topalov gets the type of game he had last time he´ll have no complaints! Maybe time for the QGA!? I would imagine Kramniks team have prepared 2 defences to both 1.d4 and 1.e4 in depth. Then again he may have put the most effort into the Slav, but if its not working... My money is on Slav again and a Kramnik refinement.


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #148 - 09/26/06 at 15:37:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik probably wouldn't mind repeating the Slav from Game 2, with of course a small improvement ready, which i think will not be too hard to find.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #147 - 09/26/06 at 15:29:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 09/26/06 at 15:18:33: Tommorrow should be interesting. I am interested to see if Topalov will use his tactic of tournaments in varying between 1.e4 and 1.d4. I suspect not - 1.d4 served him well in the previous game, so it will be interesting to see what Kramnik comes up with this time in reply. I agree. Topalov will probably play 1.d4 and see if Kramnik varies from the Slav. I thought Kramnik had the edge throughout today's game, but it never looked dangerous for Topalov. Neither player looking to take risks: Kramnik, because giving Topalov a chance to win with Black would put him in good position to even the match score in game 4; Topalov, because game 4 with White is a better time to take risks and press hard for a win. Game 4 is pretty much a must win situation for Topalov - it should be an exciting game!

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #146 - 09/26/06 at 15:18:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Tommorrow should be interesting. I am interested to see if Topalov will use his tactic of tournaments in varying between 1.e4 and 1.d4. I suspect not - 1.d4 served him well in the previous game, so it will be interesting to see what Kramnik comes up with this time in reply.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #145 - 09/26/06 at 15:14:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Draw

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #144 - 09/26/06 at 14:55:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	This is quite a bizarre World ch, since by the looks of it Kramnik is not really in great form yet he is 2-0 up, but thats chess. The momentum is with Topalov even if the score is not


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Trevormkidd YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 26 Joined: 04/01/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #143 - 09/26/06 at 14:52:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	A draw. Kramnik looked a little better than Topalov throughout this game, but in the end I thought he was going to blow it on time.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #142 - 09/26/06 at 14:51:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well - looked like good active dynamic defence from Topalov, in what looked like a typical Kramnik position with a solid edge. A draw is just what Topalov needed to steady the ship, next game he can come out gunning, but he still has time to draw that as well, we are not in the desperation stakes yet since Topalov seems well able to create winning chances with White.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #141 - 09/26/06 at 11:09:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Catalan Again! 4...dxc4 We are in for a feast!

	CastleRock
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #140 - 09/26/06 at 10:11:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	The match has gone more or less as I expected so far - except for one thing - the results! I expected Topalov to have too much energy for Kramnik and to outplay him, but what I didnt expect is the collapse from a won position. BUT - it is still early days (despite being a short match) and the way Topalov plays he has the energy to create winning chances in virtually every game, also he has a habit of being a slow starter (except for San Luis!) so my analysis of the match is this: 1) If Kramniks level of play stays the same and Topalov steps it up, he will still win the match 2)The 64,000 dollar question - if Kramnik finds another level and manages to win a game by outplaying Topalov, then the match is virtually over.


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MarinFan Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 447 Location: Leeds Joined: 04/04/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #139 - 09/26/06 at 09:25:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello, 16 ... Bxd3 preparing f5 was a novelty in game 2. Before this game, thought Smyslov had shown this sort of Slav position to be ok for black. There are lots of places annotating these games but this one looks quite good. http://chessmind.powerblogs.com/files/wcc2006_topalov_kramnik_2.htm Bye John S


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #138 - 09/26/06 at 07:33:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	well we see the problem now in my opinion about the length of the match, lets hope there is still time for Toppy to come back and do the business, it seems clear he has the mark of Kramnik - he just needs to steady his nerves and start putting the points away. Its a big ask now but he still has (just) enough time to get some momentum going. I would say a draw with Black now is the best bet to steady the ship.
	« Last Edit: 09/26/06 at 08:52:00 by Keano »

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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #137 - 09/26/06 at 07:06:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Indeed. Hopefully, Kramnik will heed his own advice and continue to press despite the match score, both to see some interesting games and also for his own sake: if he can go 3-0 Topalov will have a huge task, while if Topalov scores at all (even if just a bloodless draw) it will surely settle his nerves a bit and there is plenty of time left for him. Is another Catalan in the cards?


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #136 - 09/26/06 at 05:23:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Even though the score is 2-0 now I certainly think it is a lot of excitement to come in this match. I certainly look forward to today's game!

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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woofwoof God Member Offline chess is like life Posts: 929 Location: Singapore Joined: 07/04/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #135 - 09/26/06 at 05:02:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/26/06 at 04:20:52: Kramnik made mistakes, but to come back and win from such a horrible position took tremendous imagination and skill. Well not really. Helped most in part by the even worse blunders by Topalov. Kramnik exploited them mercilessly. "one bad move negates 40 good ones" or something to that effect.

	"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #134 - 09/26/06 at 04:20:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Game 2 should go down as one of the great games of all time. Unfortunately, it won't. There are too many hacks out there who point out the errors that these two great players made, as pointed out by their computers. At one point, Topalov had both Queen and Rook en prise, and was winning the game. Kramnik made mistakes, but to come back and win from such a horrible position took tremendous imagination and skill. Topalov is technically superb, as we should remember from his perfomance at San Luis. Yet Kramnik made it seem that if Topalov doesn't win in the middle game, he will lose. I have a side note.... I play the Slav Defense quite regularly, and predicted we wouldn't see it in this match because of its complexity. I was proven completely wrong, but I have never seen ...f5 played in the position Kramnik had. Was this a novelty, or just a really rare idea? And whose idea was it anyway? It looked terrible even before Topalov responded! I know, this topic could be addressed in the Slav section, but I believe it's of general interest now that it's become part of chess lore. I still hope that Burgess, Emms and Nunn consider this in their next edition of The Mammoth Book of the World's Greatest Chess Games.


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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #133 - 09/25/06 at 23:50:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Let me just say that I voted for Kramnik to win. What is surprising is I did not expect him to win in such a fasion. After having a day to digest what has happened and reading some of the above replies I have come to a conclusion on Toppa. HE SHOULD NOT CHANGE ANYTHING! As pointed out above once he is able to stop the blundering he will be fine. So long as Toppa sticks to his guns and keeps his cool look for him to close the gap.


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Paul123 Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 109 Location: USA Joined: 11/01/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #132 - 09/25/06 at 21:57:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	What is up with Topalov's play in the first two games? He had a draw in the first game yet played on till his position was a wreck. Then over pressed his attack in game two yet again... leaving his position in shambles. The tension at the match must be extreme combined with Topalov either thinking Kramnik will start to crack.... or he doesn't respect Kramniks prowess i can't figure it out...


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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #131 - 09/25/06 at 18:48:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topalov doesn't need to change anything. To do blunders and miss opportunities has nothing to do with style or opening choices.

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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tracke Senior Member Offline Introite tam etiam ibi dei sunt Posts: 467 Location: Kiel (GER) Joined: 09/21/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #130 - 09/25/06 at 17:58:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sorry, in game 2 I didn´t saw Kramnik having opening problems or being outplayed by Topalov. In fact, Black´s position around move 20 seems pretty okay, Kramnik had equalized in a sharp position. Probably Kramnik didn´t want to go for a drawish line and overestimated his winning chances! And so he took the a4 pawn while it might have been better to play Rec8 first. I also interpret 31...Bxf8(??) instead of 31...Kxf8 as playing for a win instead of taking a draw. (Of course I cannot say if 31...Kxf8 would really draw, the play remains really difficult). Okay, later on Kramnik terribly blundered. But so did Topalov, too. Topalov made the first mistake (!! to let Kramnik equalize out of the opening !!) and the last deciding one. Inbetween he had a winning position for some moves, but I do not think that Topalov deserved the win more than Kramnik. I see no reason for Kramnik to abandon the Open Slav. I expect a further Catalan in game 3 and a further Open Slav in game 4 (with Topalov deviating first!). With Kramnik scoring 1.5 points out of these! From then on Topalov will switch to Modern Benoni and 1.e4 . But it won´t help him. Kramnik will win the match with game 10 (or even earlier). tracke PS: Has anyone noticed that I am a Kramnik fan ?!


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #129 - 09/25/06 at 17:45:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	In principle, Topalov's match strategy is both good and correct. In practice, it is slightly off the mark and needs some fine tunings. It is the double-edged nature of his strategy that has produced 2 losses. Just a slight tweaking in his form and he will turn those frowns ...upside down ! I expect he is emotionally and mentally just fine--he knows how it goes sometimes when you live on the razor's edge. Besides he has a whole army in Elista to support him and keep his confidence up! I like Kramnik's strategy with black vs. d4. I think he is trying to skip around Topalov's prowess in deep, thorough preparation by mixing it up, we'll see of course as the match unfolds. I expect Kramnik came to Elista armed with ideas in the QGA (Rublevsky), Nimzo (Motylev), QID, QGD, Slav (maybe from previous work w/Bareev), and Semi-Slav. In fact, if I were Toppy, I would start out the same: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 and give 4.e3 a try angling for a Meran or Anti-Meran Qc2. I wouldn't be suprised though if Kramnik chooses a totally different defence for game 4. Will 1.e4 be played in this match at all? Kramnik won't play it being up 2-0, so its a question if Topalov has anything up his sleeve vs. the Petroff. Should be interesting. This match is NOT OVER YET.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #128 - 09/25/06 at 11:49:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: I am convinced that only very few player are able to create such an attack as Topalov did. And only few would have survived this game aginst him. Well, Toppy did whip up a nice attack, but it's hard to imagine any other GM failing to put the point away. Rxg4+ and then Qc7 is a rather obvious idea - so how could he fail to see it?? So far, it seems to me that Kramnik has just put his boots out and Topalov has self destructed all on his own... So far he tries to complicate as much as possible - which could be a good strategy against Kramnik, but at some point you must stop complicating and reap the harvest, be it win or draw. I hope he'll come back, but at the moment it looks like 7-0 in the making. After losing when he should've drawn and then lose when he should've won I'd guess that Toppy is rather despondent by now. So, a quick draw in game three may the wisest move for him, but Kramnik would probably be reluctant to allow him to repair his ego...


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #127 - 09/25/06 at 11:21:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 09/25/06 at 08:55:14: It looks more and more like a Coffee House Championship! It could be 'cause they have less time to think, but it's probably mostly due to the live audience on the net having easy access to e.g. fritz and Nalimov's endgame tablebase. Anyway, the contestants of a WC-match have never looked so human before... You got some points but I still disagree here. Of corse there happened mistakes in the endgame. But first of all after a very exhausting battle of high level. Secondly and more important if you would analyse the Kasparov Korpov or short Kasparov battles with today chessengines this games will also look very human. I am not happy either that the money for this match comes from K.I. but the chess of this two games is far away from coffehouse chess. The diffrence to other WC is the games are more Tactical as others (maybe with the exception of Short Kasparov) but does this make it coffehouse chess? Of course not. I am convinced that only very few player are able to create such an attack as Topalov did. And only few would have survived this game aginst him. (in both games) This two games is what the chess audiance has asked for a long time - This was fighting chess and not tactical draws!


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #126 - 09/25/06 at 08:58:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	I really don't mind. Great chess + mistakes makes for good excitement and entertainment.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #125 - 09/25/06 at 08:55:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	It looks more and more like a Coffee House Championship! It could be 'cause they have less time to think, but it's probably mostly due to the live audience on the net having easy access to e.g. fritz and Nalimov's endgame tablebase. Anyway, the contestants of a WC-match have never looked so human before...


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ANDREW BRETT God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 622 Joined: 07/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #124 - 09/25/06 at 07:45:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	although Kram leads 2-0 I think Top is playing the better chess for the main - he just needs to cut out the critical blunders. I was amazed he blew yesterday's game . The good news for him is that Kram will need to change his openings as I don't think his Slav gave enough counterplay g4 was a strong attack. Still a great match - the most combative since Short v Kasparov. Andrew


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #123 - 09/25/06 at 07:11:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Two great fighting games by both players. I am impressed. If Topalows keeps playing like this the points will come as they came always in the past year. if Topalows still have minus two after six games I still think the match is open. As Topalow normally keeps fighting to the end. However minus 3.... then I am affraid it over. I prectite for game 3 again a Catalan. For game 4 Topalow will play again d4 and Kramnik will vary the openings against d4. Maybe again a slave but a completly diffrent line as in game 2. Game 2 was a real Torture for Kramnik trough the hole game. Hard job well done, respect to both players!


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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #122 - 09/25/06 at 05:14:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Black looked very solid in the second game. White didn't seem to have anything with a bishop behind d4, e5, f4, the b4 square given to black and the c-file was open for all major pieces to be exchanged. The only active plan for white was g4 which didn't look very frightening but Topalov got it to work. I wouldn't be surprised if Kramnik repeats the opening in the fourth game.

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #121 - 09/25/06 at 05:00:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Based on the first two games I would, in a longer match, bet on Topalov to win (and I picked Kramnik to win when I started this poll). Before blundering, Topalov pretty convincingly outplayed Kramnik in both games. Although before the match began I thought Topalov may be the stronger player, I had thought he and Kramnik would be evenly enough matched that Kramnik's match experience would be the deciding factor. I now think Kramnik is outmatched and, save for erratic play by his opponent, would be soon be relinquishing his title. I look forward to the next pair of games. Should Topalov manage 1.5/2 pts in these games (as he should have in the first pair) we may still have a contest. Although I picked Kramnik to win (and still expect this result), I am now routing for Topalov. I hope he will continue to dominate and settle down enough to start winning those won positions.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #120 - 09/25/06 at 04:55:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	I thought that line of the Slav in Game 2 was fine for Black but evidently not so harmless!!


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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #119 - 09/25/06 at 04:11:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	I agree that Kramnik probably hopes to draw the rest of the games and may be capable to do so. But what has he shown us? He defended reasonable well in both games, and still can trust his technique. Even so I find the way he conducts his middle games uninspiring. Topalov on the other hand has shown us that he still is a very dynamic player, who is capable of finding ways to seize the initiative and unbalance any position. Some may say (actually did) that this works only against lesser players. But Kramnik has been on the brink of loosing twice, only saved by Topalov's blunders and his playing on in positions where an experienced match player would have forced the draw. Kramnik probably will be the next world champion. But if he can't do better than this, he will certainly not be rembered for his games in this match. And if I want to spend some time replaying games, he certainly will not be my first choice. Topalov's games are certainly more interesting. So all in all, my sympathy goes to Topalov.


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #118 - 09/25/06 at 01:16:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	True. In both games Topalov had his chances. But, only after Kramnik buldered in both cases. In the first game h3 and in the second game Bxf8, Even after Qg6+ life was not easy for black. Kramnik displayed excellent technique. I don't sympathise with Topalov. This is the way he plays - wielding his double edged sword. This might terrorise lesser players, I don't know if you can't hope to win a match with this strategy against Kramnik or Anand.

	CastleRock
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #117 - 09/24/06 at 22:29:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Alias wrote on 09/24/06 at 19:23:29: While 0-2 is the toughest possible start, Topalov did have a draw at hand in the first game and a win in the second game. It would have been worse if he would have been outplayed in the games. Topalov has bounced back from really poor tournament starts. Let's see if he can bounce back in matches. I'm quite sure he will win a few games. If this were a longer match, I'd say yes Topalov might settle down and even the score. But in a 12 game match (ridiculously short for deciding WCh IMO), this will be all but impossible. Kramnik is probably the most solid player on the planet, and all he needs are draws. I expect to see a short draw in game 3 (but who know with this wild man Topalov?), in which case game 4 will be a crucial, must-win situation. Kramnik needs only to draw the next two games and the match is all but over.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #116 - 09/24/06 at 22:19:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	See http://chessmind.powerblogs.com/files/wcc2006_topalov_kramnik_2.htm for instructive analysis of the following endgame position from today's Topalov-Kramnik game (as well great commentary on the rest of the game): http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=6k1/1p2r3/3K4/6N1/3P4/8/8... after 53.Kd6 Black to move and win! It turns out that 53...Re1? (the move played in the game) is only good enough to draw, but 53...Re3! wins (the key is control of the b3-square).

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #115 - 09/24/06 at 19:35:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topalov is pulling a Fischer

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #114 - 09/24/06 at 19:23:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	While 0-2 is the toughest possible start, Topalov did have a draw at hand in the first game and a win in the second game. It would have been worse if he would have been outplayed in the games. Topalov has bounced back from really poor tournament starts. Let's see if he can bounce back in matches. I'm quite sure he will win a few games.

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #113 - 09/24/06 at 18:55:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sharp chess is always a double edged sword, and the need to be precise takes a lot of energy. One also needs to be in good form to play in this manner, which Topa does not seem to be, maybe his long layoff in preparation for the match is partly to blame. Moreover, Topalov does not have much match experience as compared to Kramnik to my knowledge and this lack of experience is beginning to show, particularly in game one. Topa gambled in both games so far, got the advantage, then messed up in the complications, and rather than call it day, spurned the draws, kept pushing and lost. This kind of uncompromising play is better suited for tournament chess, where you have players of varying strengths and styles to face. I am dissapointed as I really thought it was about high time again for a non Russian World Champ. Sadly as I predicted in another thread, the first to win a game would win the match, and so it is coming to pass. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #112 - 09/24/06 at 18:20:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	I tend to agree with others here that Toppa is trying too hard! Against a player of Kramniks's stature to play as wild as he did in both games is just plain foolish. He ,Topa, should have taken the draw in hand in game #2. Well now he is down 2 points...lets see what he does now!


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woofwoof God Member Offline chess is like life Posts: 929 Location: Singapore Joined: 07/04/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #111 - 09/24/06 at 18:03:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	I wont be surprised if Drawnik starts playing for short draws or forcing them from now on. I do hope to be proven wrong tho. Lets hope for 12 good fighting chess games, even if the remaining 10 are going to end up drawn! Someone here had commented that Toppy self destructed probably cos he tried too hard, and I tend to agree wholeheartedly with that observation. This thing abt trying too hard always seems to have adverse effects on anyone, even in other sports & games.....golf swing gone awry, miscues or missing fairly easy pots in snooker to name some examples. I guess its all abt nerves. Staying calm & not letting anxieties affect you are key for good performances. This is what distinguishes the winners from the world class.

	"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #110 - 09/24/06 at 17:41:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Mr.Plus Two is already +2

	CastleRock
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #109 - 09/24/06 at 17:10:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Oh my, what an entertaining game, despite of the grave mistakes. Kramnik - Topalov = 2 - 0 after first two games. This will be hard for Topalov, especially considering he has been better in both games. Hard to say StuntLinguis, I was surprised that Topalov didn't find the win after Rxg4+.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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StuntLinguist YaBB Newbies Offline Pronouncer of strange and difficult words. Posts: 42 Location: columbia Joined: 10/09/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #108 - 09/24/06 at 17:08:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Absolutely unbelievable! How does Topalov continue to self-destruct? Several tactical mistakes and he's down 0-2. We know he's not going to outplay kramnik positionally, so this really does not bode well for toppy. Anybody have a guess as to what could be going on here? Is it really just nerves? StuntLinguist


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #107 - 09/24/06 at 14:23:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Game 2: Topalov strikes back. Topalov attacked brilliantly and Kramnik is in serious trouble. Looks like the match score will be 1-1. A couple of odd-looking (inaccurate?) moves just made: 31...Bxf8 and 32.Qg6+. 31...Kxf8 looked more resilient, but probably not enough to save the game. After 31...Bxf8 it looked like 32.Rxg4+ should have won quickly. 32.Qxg6 (preceived to be safer?) should still win, though. http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=4rnk1/pp2b2p/4p1p1/1q1pP2... after 28...Rxb2 there followed 29.hxg6 h5 30.g7 hxg4 31.gxf8Q+ Bxf8(?) http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=4rbk1/pp6/4p3/1q1pP3/3P1P... after 31...Bxf8(?) and here doesn't 32.Rxg4+ (intending 33.Qc7) win immediately? Update: Topalov has self-destructed — again! Looks like we might be heading for a bishop (White) vs. three pawns (Black) ending where I'm not sure if White will have realistic winning chances. Even if Topalov can win this (seems doubtful now), it's going to be a lot more difficult than it would have been had he played accurately earlier. What's going on with Topalov? Nerves? Update: Topalov now fighting to hold a draw. Kramnik should win but would be happy with a draw so that might be the outcome. Be tragic for Topalov if he goes 0-2 in a pair of games where he should have gotten 1.5 pts. http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=5bk1/1p3r2/5P2/3pPK2/3P4/... after 45...Bf8 Can White survive? Update: In the following endgame position there was some discussion suggesting that White might have drawing chances, but I find this difficult to believe. Perhaps an interesting point of discussion for endgame fans. http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=6k1/1p6/3K4/6N1/3P4/8/8/4... after 53...Re1 assessment? Kramnik won ten moves later: 54.d5 Kf8 55.Ne6+ (55.Kd7!? may be an improvement, but is it enough to make a difference? Then again 55...b5 might be unstoppable here, so maybe not even an improvement.) 55...Ke8 56.Nc7+ Kd8 57.Ne6+ Kc8 (now there is no doubt - Black wins easily) 58.Ke7 Rh1 59.Ng5 b5 60.d6 Rd1 61.Ne6 b4 62.Nc5 Re1+ 63.Kf6 Re3 0-1 Tragic loss for Topalov. Match score: 2-0 Kramnik
	« Last Edit: 09/24/06 at 22:16:54 by OstapBender »
	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #106 - 09/24/06 at 12:21:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Lately I've come across a number of interesting chess-related articles on the internet. Latest is that Topalov has operated a Chip in his brain. No wonder he plays so well http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=70060

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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kingsGambit YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 9 Joined: 07/20/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #105 - 09/23/06 at 22:05:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topalov had a pretty much forced draw yet carried on playing a pawn down. I think it was logical for him to carry on playing while he had the forced draw in his pocket, only just to annoy and exhaust Kramnik, but once he allowed white to breathe the play that ensued was unbelievable. It was as if Topalov had put money on Kramnik to win after reaching move x. It would be interesting to see how much money was bet on this game.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #104 - 09/23/06 at 20:57:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think Topalov had the draw in hand right up until his blunder on the 57th move, and he had an edge for most of the stage of the game leading up to this point. Whether he had realistic winning chances at the point where he first rejected the opportunity to force a draw by repetition (around move 40), I thought it made sense for him to press for a win at that point. In the end he wound up testing his own stamina — and found it lacking.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #103 - 09/23/06 at 20:26:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	If yes, this idea rebounced completely. It might be better to test Kramnik's stamina in very complicated positions.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #102 - 09/23/06 at 20:16:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think Toppy may have been pushing too hard for the win. Watching that endgame I can't help but wonder if part of Toppy's strategy is to test Kramnik's stamina by pushing hard for the win no matter what the board position may be!


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StuntLinguist YaBB Newbies Offline Pronouncer of strange and difficult words. Posts: 42 Location: columbia Joined: 10/09/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #101 - 09/23/06 at 19:45:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ha, luck had nothing to do with toppy's loss. I can't help but wonder if he really thought he was better between moves 36 and 43 or if he wanted to wear kramnik down with a longer game? (i.e to try to make kramnik's prior health problems a factor in the match) Maybe that's simply my bias against topalov, since God knows I've overestimated my chances in a number of my own games. Regardless Topalov looked frustrated at not getting the kind of actively imbalanced game he normally seems to like. This will certainly be an interesting match. StuntLinguist


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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #100 - 09/23/06 at 18:11:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Draw should have been the logical result of game 1. Tough luck for Topalov.

	CastleRock
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #99 - 09/23/06 at 15:02:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	First game looks like a draw, but with some interesting moments. I thought Topalov looked a bit better throughout the game. (impression just before time control) A couple moves later, I'm wondering if Topalov is still striving for a win. Topalov can force the draw at any point, so why not? For game 1 commentary, see http://www.e3e5.com/eng/petersburg/competitions/article.html?241 Anyone know of other sites? Shipov did a tremendous job with San Luis last year. I he covering the WCh at ChessPro? Update: Topalov blundered (57...f5??) and lost (or will lose soon). Strange finish. http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=8/1r6/2N2p2/3Pp2k/R3n3/4P... after 57.Ra4
	« Last Edit: 09/23/06 at 17:47:29 by OstapBender »
	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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castlerock God Member Offline Erro Ergo Sum Posts: 842 Location: Chennai Joined: 02/24/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #98 - 09/23/06 at 09:57:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	One cannot get there (top 3) without exceptional talent. But, SF has a very valid point. Virtually entire of Aronian’s last 150 came out of his good showing in League, Team Championships and strong opens. His exposure to big boys is pretty limited. (Just two. Linares 2006 and Corus 2006, iirc). Hence, I too feel, Aronian doesn’t deserve to be compared with KKAT in the context of a world championship, as yet. That said, I also feel, he is going to cement his place up there effortlessly. Should we say “Aronian – the first Maverick in top three?” Re the topic I'm rooting for Kramnik. Go Kramnik!

	CastleRock
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #97 - 09/23/06 at 08:27:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ostap, Yes, Aronian is a talented young GM, but he has only been in the top 10 in the world for a year, and of all the big names I certainly wouldn't have guessed he would be the #3 player in the world for two supplements in a row. He was an unlikely choice for me, especially knowing that he was barely even in the top 100 only two or three years ago. In my opinion, his standing is the most flimsy of the top seven or so players, just as Svidler's was a year ago. We'll see though. Cheers!


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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #96 - 09/22/06 at 23:14:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	The time for talk is over. The rather perverse opening ceremony is done & Kramnik will have white in game 1. I would be very surprised if this match goes smoothly without any controversy. Time will tell....start the clocks & lets see who will be the one and only world champ!!!


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #95 - 09/20/06 at 09:29:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	3 of those SF mentioned will play at Corus, I'll leave it to you which isnt (hopefully he will)

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #94 - 09/20/06 at 05:57:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/20/06 at 01:25:02: (For those who need to know but don't want to look it up, the unlikely 3rd best player in the world right now is Lev Aronian.) Why is this so unlikely?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #93 - 09/20/06 at 01:25:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Here's a bit of trivia courtesy of FIDE's lists: There are only three active players who have been in the top ten for each rating supplement since July 2001 (in other words, in the last 5 years). Anand has been 2nd or 3rd pretty much the entire five years. Kramnik has been 2nd or 3rd for most of that same period except recently when he dropped to 9th. He's now 4th. Topalov, who was 10th in July, 2001 (11th in the previous supplement), has worked up to the top in the most recent polls. So, if one is looking for the best players in the world over the past five years, two of the three absolute best are playing each other for the World Championship starting on Thursday. Pretty cool, huh! (For those who need to know but don't want to look it up, the unlikely 3rd best player in the world right now is Lev Aronian.)


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #92 - 09/20/06 at 01:03:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	I completely agree that Anand has been forgotten in all this. Anand placed a decent second at San Luis and has maintained a high performance for as long as anyone still active. I could see him trouncing through the FIDE tournament regardless of who wins the K-T Match. But let's not put the cart before the horse. We have the opportunity to witness one of the great matches of modern chess. This match has the potential to revitalize chess in exactly the way that the two previous Kramnik matches failed to do. Kramnik's win against Kasparov was not especially important outside of chess circles, and his title defense against Leko has been forgotten even by some avid chess fans! This match could be a sterling example of contrasting styles both on and off the board and may even be covered in the Western press! Ok, Kalmykia is completely off most Americans' knowledge of the world. I have to admit that although I teach Geography I wouldn't have been able to place it on a map without it being of chessic interest to me. Still, a world championship between these two offers so much drama that the press will almost certainly cover parts of it. (I hope.)


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ANDREW BRETT God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 622 Joined: 07/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #91 - 09/19/06 at 16:07:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Legal/Fairness arguments aside, I'd feel a lot happier if the winner of this match played Anand as there is no doubt that he is a very worthy challenger !


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #90 - 09/19/06 at 09:59:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 09/19/06 at 03:58:37: If Kasparov had won Dortmund 2002, Kramnik would have played him. Kramnik had announced long before, that this tournament would serve as a candidates tournament. It was the same last year. Long before San Juan was played, Kramnik had made it clear, that he wanted to play the winner. Considering the facts, that FIDE had failed to organize a decent procedure to appoint an opponent and that the Prague agreements were just paper, I don't see what else Kramnik could have done - except Sjirov giving a second chance. In this matter I am on IM Cox' side. Willempie's accusations are based unfair. When it comes to attractive chess, I prefer Topalov. When it comes to good manners, I hope that Kramnik will win. While that is prolly true (and please do note I am not accusing him of anything except hiding behind procedures) it is kinda weird to pronounce Prague dead and then later use it as the legal basis for the match. In this Topalov's attitude is far more consistent: Any player above 2700 with enough funds he will play against(iirc pushed through this rule prior to San Luis). So iirc Topalov doesnt accept this match as some reunification match, but as a challenge to his title. Anyway with whatever result I am fairly confident FIDE and others will manage to mess everything up a little later.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #89 - 09/19/06 at 03:58:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	If Kasparov had won Dortmund 2002, Kramnik would have played him. Kramnik had announced long before, that this tournament would serve as a candidates tournament. It was the same last year. Long before San Juan was played, Kramnik had made it clear, that he wanted to play the winner. Considering the facts, that FIDE had failed to organize a decent procedure to appoint an opponent and that the Prague agreements were just paper, I don't see what else Kramnik could have done - except Sjirov giving a second chance. In this matter I am on IM Cox' side. Willempie's accusations are based unfair. When it comes to attractive chess, I prefer Topalov. When it comes to good manners, I hope that Kramnik will win.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #88 - 09/18/06 at 14:01:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	My books being read in the bath – the ultimate honour. Byron tells me that this and Neil’s companion volume were the first Everyman efforts being made according to some new principle or other, so I am sure he will be pleased to hear it. You don’t like the Berlin?! I find it very interesting – honest. Of course when you get to my age the game is easier without queens, as it makes it harder to blunder, although that hasn’t been enough to stop me just lately. I noticed by the way that after all his slagging it off on this site Nigel Davies was right there with 3 Bb5 Nf6 in the 4NCL at the weekend, although it is possible he knew his opponent Dgebuadze would shudder and hastily reply 4 Qe2, which was what happened. Although when I left Nigel didn’t seem to be going too well


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #87 - 09/18/06 at 13:39:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	(OFF-TOPIC-ALERT) Oh man, a book on the Berlin? By you John? ...sigh..I am sure glad I quit playing e4. By the way John, the content of your d4-book is excellent and the paper it is printed on is pretty water-resistant. I left it lying on the bathroom-floor and by the time I took a shower I had forgot its exact location. It got soaked when water leaked all over. After carefully separating all the pages and drying them I can only say that the pages are now bending in all kinds of directions, but are otherwise doing fine.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #86 - 09/18/06 at 13:15:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	No, I've taken over Quality Chess' project.


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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #85 - 09/18/06 at 13:13:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Berlin? Interesting. Especially since Quality Chess cancelled their book. Is it a Starting Out-book on Everyman?

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #84 - 09/18/06 at 12:45:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	And after that one on the Berlin, with special reference of course to Kramnik’s contribution. Willempie: wasn’t Kramnik right? FIDE signed up to Prague like everyone else. Dortmund happened as agreed, Kramnik-Leko happened as agreed, but FIDE couldn’t manage to stage Kasparov-Ponomariov. What else was supposed to result but Kramnik keeping his title? Then FIDE ran off and said, well OK, instead we’ll depart totally from the spirit and letter of Prague and the last hundred odd years of chess history, run a tournament and call the winner World Champion; do you want to play? Kramnik not unnaturally told them to get stuffed. And equally naturally, he considers himself entitled to play the winner for the title. To my eyes the question would more fairly be whether the winner is entitled to play him. Of course Prague doesn’t actually cover it because like most contracts it doesn’t deal with what’s going to happen if one party – FIDE – places itself in fundamental breach of the contract’s terms. But FIDE recognised the legitimacy of Kramnik’s claim by Prague and they recognised the principle that they’re going to find a champion of their own and organise a match between him and Kramnik. I don’t know about Kramnik hiding behind his contract. In every interview with him I’ve ever seen he’s spoken fairly and consistently about his desire to unify the title and retain the classical tradition of its being decided by matchplay.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #83 - 09/18/06 at 12:25:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Aha merci

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #82 - 09/18/06 at 12:18:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie: John is writing a Starting Out-book on the Sveshnikov.

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #81 - 09/18/06 at 12:12:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	@IMJohnCox Kramnik's line until San Luis really materialised was "Prague is dead, so I keep my title", after that it was all of a sudden "Prague gives me the right to a match against the winner". In the meantime he at about every instance hid behind "my contract doesnt allow me so and so". PS Any new opening books coming up?

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #80 - 09/18/06 at 11:49:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Team of Veselin Topalov, Bulgaria 1. Veselin Topalov, Bulgaria, participant 2. Danailov Silvio, Bulgaria, manager 3. Cheparinov Ivan, Bulgaria, coach 4. Oleksandr Onishchuk, the USA, coach 5. Francisco Vallejo Pons, Spain, coach 6. Vladimir Haralampiev Rapondzhiev, Bulgaria, team member 7. Raicho Ivanov Gospodinov, Bulgaria, team member 8. Georgiev Dragomir, Bulgaria, team member 9. Ginchev Zhivko, Bulgaria, team member 10. Dancho Djongov, Bulgaria, team member Team of Vladimir Kramnik, Russia 1. Vladimir Kramnik, Russia, participant 2. Carsten Hensel, Germany, manager 3. Miguel Illescas, Spain, coach 4. Alexander Motylev, Russia, coach 5. Sergei Rublevsky, Russia, coach 6. Valeri Krylov, Russia, physiotherapist 7. Victor Bobylev, Russia, cook

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #79 - 09/18/06 at 11:46:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox: Most chess fans choose favorite players because of the games, not beacuse of politics or personalities. Topalov plays attractive chess. That's why he has fans. (Kramnik also plays attractive chess, albeit in a different style.) Also, I don't think the San Luis style tournamnet is nonsense. The previous FIDE format with blitz games deciding most matches was nonsense. San Luis is also far better than hand-picking challengers. The best is probably the old format of interzonals et c to select a challenger, but that is not practical anymore.

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #78 - 09/18/06 at 10:35:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Smyslov-fan, by the way, a point of order. I think Onischuk is helping Topalov, not Kramnik.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #77 - 09/18/06 at 09:59:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	I thought Ilyumzhinov had long ago suspended Kalmykia’s parliament? Actually, on reflection I think he only suspended elections to it – an important distinction. In reply to various people, sure I don’t expect Topalov to come out and slag Ilyumzhinov the way he deserves. But he didn’t have to produce a statement in support of him at the recent elections. Anand didn’t. Leko didn’t. In fact, no-one else who matters did. As to Topalov being a gentleman, I suggest any Topalov fans read Danailov’s comments (doubtless approved by his master) in his notorious post-San-Luis interview about Morozevich and Kazim. If they remain Topalov fans, good luck to them. I’ve never understood this nonsense about Kramnik not ‘giving’ Kasparov a rematch and ‘dodging challenges’. First off, they signed a contract for the match which didn’t include a rematch clause, as it could have done. Secondly, Kramnik quite rightly in my opinion said that his priority was to reunite the titles after the 1993 schism. The only reason there wasn’t a rematch within the process that was agreed upon to achieve that is that for whatever reason Kasparov-Ponomariov and then Kasparov-Kasimdzhanov never happened. That wasn’t Kramnik’s fault. Shirov of course was abysmally treated and indeed abysmally advised (indeed not advised at all, presumably) when he signed the contract for Caorle. In the end though if there is truly no-one who will sponsor a match then what can you do? I don’t know that any of us would have done much different from Kramnik, and I don’t know anyone either who seriously imagines that Shirov would have stood a chance against Kasparov. Anyway the main reason to support Kramnik is that Topalov has made it clear that if he wins it’s the end of the classical match tradition, except for freak shows like his projected payday match with Radjabov. The position if Kramnik wins is less clear. Has he agreed to play Radjabov instead of Topalov? I don’t know. One has the impression that Kramnik too has agreed to participate in the next San Luis-style nonsense, but I live in hope. For one thing, Ilyumzhinov doesn’t seem too interested in arranging the matches to find out who’s going to play at the next San Luis. I suspect he’s hanging fire until he sees who wins. If Topalov does, Kramnik’s in the cold and Ilyumzhinov’s got the control he wants, and maybe we will see the candidates matches. If Kramnik wins I’m not sure things’ll be so clear. I hope not, anyway – if I was Kramnik I’d say you can arrange what tournaments you like (hey, let’s call them Candidates tournaments), and if the winner wants to play me for the title I’ll do it.


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #76 - 09/18/06 at 08:57:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: He moved deputies out of Kalmykia’s parliament and ordered it to be completely refurbished to stage the championship games.

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #75 - 09/18/06 at 08:52:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Did I read correctly that they play in parliament? Not that it is in use anyway.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #74 - 09/18/06 at 05:26:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Coverage is up: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2362769,00.html

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #73 - 09/18/06 at 04:30:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Chessy, You make some excellent points about the players' seconds. I am more impressed with Kramnik's team than Topalov's. I believe that Onischuk and Rublyevsky are excellent theoreticians who will definitely have a say in Kramnik's opening repertoire. Onischuk was (briefly) a resident of Denver, Colorado. So now I have a weak local tie to the World Champion! Anyone who has followed world championship matches knows the importance of seconds that the player can trust and that has interesting insights into positions that complement the player's style. You're probably right to predict 1.e4 from Karmnik, at least some of the time. You may also see some interesting Sicilians. I think that Kramnik's choice of seconds makes it even less likely that we'll see the Berlin defense again. I'd like to see some Slavs but I don't really expect it in this match unless the score gets lopsided.


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Ptero Full Member Offline When all else fails, read the instructions. Posts: 220 Joined: 03/22/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #72 - 09/18/06 at 04:26:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	chessy wrote on 09/18/06 at 01:26:28: Or is the opening repetoir of the seconds not that important and they just try to find new ideas in Kramniks/Topalovs repetoir? Indeed, in the 2000 match Bareev was in charge of Kramnik's Berlin defence, an opening he plays neither with black nor with white. Furthermore, if I recall from one of his interviews, he was absolutely disgusted with this opening line!


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #71 - 09/18/06 at 01:26:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK the seconds of both player are (mostly) e4 player with white. Does this means we will see only e4 games? Kramnik Secondas have all the slave in their repertour and are general rather Sicilian players than e5 players. Does this mean we wont see a petrov? Or is the opening repetoir of the seconds not that important and they just try to find new ideas in Kramniks/Topalovs repetoir?


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #70 - 09/16/06 at 15:32:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	It would be too easy for me to condemn anyone who has anything to do with FIDE or the "kleptocrat" Ilyumzhinov. But wouldn't that mean that anyone with a FIDE rating or who has acknowledged receiving a title from the organization is also tainted? I don't really think the above statement is true, but morality is easy at a distance. I have voted and asked others to vote against supporting FIDE as long as it's run by an unrepentant murderer who uses the wealth of his nation to support his favorite hobby. But what are the World Champion candidates to do? When Avery Brundage, a racist and supporter of Fascism, was head of the International Olympic Committee athletes still competed for and accepted medals from him. It's too much to ask people to give up their life-long dreams just because the person at the top of the bureaucracy is criminal or at least morally corrupt. The soldiers of the Wehrmacht were not accused of war crimes, and neither should the soldiers of FIDE. We need to clean house and had an opportunity to do so. But the money that keeps pouring in from the citizens of Elista made that all but impossible. If the entire organization were corrupt (and not just inefficient and poorly organized), then I could see a boycott being the best option. As it is, I don't fault either Kramnik or Topalov for having their pictures taken with the President of FIDE. The World Court has not convicted Ilyumzhinov for any crimes. What would you do, given the chance to play for the most important title in your sport?


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #69 - 09/16/06 at 09:12:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 09/15/06 at 20:54:08: TalJechin wrote on 09/15/06 at 16:56:25: Kramnik's claim is hardly any better than Topalov's - sure he beat Kasparov but never gave him a return match. Besides, Kramnik wasn't even qualified to play Garri (as he lost the semi final to Shirov) - so the very least he could do was offer him a return match. A funny remark for someone called TalJechin . Why? OK, Alekhine should've given Capa a rematch - but given the troubles he had attaining the first match I don't think he owed Capa anything. While Vlad got his WC-match served on a silver plate... Kasparov has had a big mouth over the years - but I think he should get credit for not ducking a challenge - well, okay he ducked Shirov, but he tried to play the strongest challenger to prove he was the strongest. Kramnik can't say the same...


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #68 - 09/16/06 at 08:56:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am in the lucky position that i like both players. I like Kramnik for his gentlemanness (unlike Kasparov). On the other hand i like Topalovs fighting spirit. I think both are great sportmans and the winner of this match is a WC i realy can axept. I can not think of a better battle as this one of this tow players. I think none of this two player should be blaimed for thier behaviour. Honestly I think Kasparov was much worse. Ok he was (is) the strongest player ever but a minimum of more politness would not have been bad. Kramnik and Topalov are much better in this sens and great player too, if not the two best at the moment.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #67 - 09/15/06 at 20:54:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 09/15/06 at 16:56:25: Kramnik's claim is hardly any better than Topalov's - sure he beat Kasparov but never gave him a return match. Besides, Kramnik wasn't even qualified to play Garri (as he lost the semi final to Shirov) - so the very least he could do was offer him a return match. A funny remark for someone called TalJechin . Kramnik could have proven to have a really high moral standard by offering Sjirov a second match shortly after 2000. But that's probably asked too much. I am on IM Cox' side here. I didn't like Kaspy's big mouth in 80's and I don't like Toppy's now. And I certainly don't like Mike Tyson types. But I have to admit: biting an ear certainly creams competition. Which WCh candidate will follow that example?

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #66 - 09/15/06 at 20:37:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Buzz wrote on 09/15/06 at 20:17:05: One potential major issue and perhaps a strategy that maybe used on Toppa's part is the issue of Kramnik's health. Will Kramnik be able to last under the huge strain of a prolonged WC match event? Could this be a repeat of KK 1? Well...no. The match ends after 12 games (plus tiebreaks) regardless of the number of wins here. Kramnik held up fairly well against Leko (the last game was a masterpiece) even though he was ill during the match, and I expect him to be healthy and ready to go this time around. Hopefully we won't see any novelties like the 8th game Kramnik-Leko. It will be interesting to see if both players repeat their openings or attempt to represent a moving target, since the match is so short. * Only one more week for the match to be cancelled -- it looks like I should have voted for a Kramnik victory instead.


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Buzz YaBB Newbies Offline Its all in the cheese..... Posts: 36 Joined: 09/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #65 - 09/15/06 at 20:17:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Despite what many may think Toppa's remarks about Kramnik add a little flavour to this match! I think the match will produce some fine games given that both players styles are very different. One potential major issue and perhaps a strategy that maybe used on Toppa's part is the issue of Kramnik's health. Will Kramnik be able to last under the huge strain of a prolonged WC match event? Could this be a repeat of KK 1? Another major issue which is a dead cert. is how will FIDE mess this whole event up???


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #64 - 09/15/06 at 19:40:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 09/15/06 at 14:43:39: There’s a difference between not protesting and coming out positively in support of Ilyumzhinov at the election as Topalov did. Of course Kramnik has negotiated with the FIDE president from time to time and I dare say they’ve been photographed together – how could he not? Yep principles are always the first to go when honour or money is involved. I am not going into this debate about FIDE, other then stating that I think my chess association should drop out of FIDE. Quote: True, Kramnik has also always said that he believes he is the true champion. But then he’s right. I suppose part of my objection to Topalov’s utterances was that in my view Kramnik so manifestly has the better claim. But on any view it was pathetic for Topalov to call Kramnik ‘the number six player in the world’ and ask why he should play him. The guy has no class. I think you're first remark is the core of the issue and why this match is there in the first place. Is he the right champion or not? I found his remarks a bit over the top as well, but on the other hand quite understandable after witnessing all the previous hassle about the WC AND ending up with a huge margin (including a sabbatical the last 7 rounds). Also Kramnik's results had been anything but impressive at that moment (luckily he improved much lately), so I read the remarks more in the vain of "I've proven my claim, so if he wants that match he has to make it happen as he is the one who needs to show it" Quote: As to Mansell et al, Kramnik did something Topalov could never have done – he beat Kasparov. If chess history ended now, it’s Topalov who would be the footnote. Yes and Euwe beat Alekhine, yet chess history for some reason puts more importance on that funny writer Nimzowitsch If Topalov can keep up these results he is one of the most impressive Wchamps since Alekhine. We tend to forget that we have been spoiled with Karpov and Kasparov who almost always showed they were the best during their tenure. And personally I like it when a sporter makes the rest of the field look like amateurs. I think many spectators loved it when Armstrong just cycled away on the heaviest col or when Fischer had his unbelievable run in those donut matches. It just shows that even when they have won they keep giving their best. Of course if they do it everytime it gets a bit boring

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #63 - 09/15/06 at 16:56:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, claiming to be the real champion etc comes with the territory - just like a boxing WC the combattants are supposed to create some kind of buzz around the event. And actively supporting Ilyumzhinov is not the most moral thing to do - but on the other hand, Topalov's WC-title is guaranteed by FIDE - so, if he wants to keep the title he'd better not bite the wrong hand... Kramnik's claim is hardly any better than Topalov's - sure he beat Kasparov but never gave him a return match. Besides, Kramnik wasn't even qualified to play Garri (as he lost the semi final to Shirov) - so the very least he could do was offer him a return match.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #62 - 09/15/06 at 14:43:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	There’s a difference between not protesting and coming out positively in support of Ilyumzhinov at the election as Topalov did. Of course Kramnik has negotiated with the FIDE president from time to time and I dare say they’ve been photographed together – how could he not? True, Kramnik has also always said that he believes he is the true champion. But then he’s right. I suppose part of my objection to Topalov’s utterances was that in my view Kramnik so manifestly has the better claim. But on any view it was pathetic for Topalov to call Kramnik ‘the number six player in the world’ and ask why he should play him. The guy has no class. As to Mansell et al, Kramnik did something Topalov could never have done – he beat Kasparov. If chess history ended now, it’s Topalov who would be the footnote.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #61 - 09/15/06 at 14:27:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 09/15/06 at 12:38:16: I can’t respect in the slightest anyone who comes out for Ilyumzhinov, for a start. Ilyumzhinov’s a murderous kleptocrat and there’s no excuse for backing him in any way. Well both are nice enough to have their picture taken with him. And yes this match should not be played under FIDE and certainly not there. I havent heard Kramnik protesting either unfortunately. Quote: I also haven’t liked the way Topalov has been boasting about being the real World Champion and dissing Kramnik, and I don’t find his pronouncement that the duty of the World Champion is to make money appealing, although from a different character it might have a certain ironic honesty which I would appreciate. Well I like it better than false modesty. While Kramnik hasnt been yelling he has given quite enough statements in which he considers himself the true WC. Plus as a sportsfan I like the player who creams the competition. That is why Schumacher is among the greatest and Nigel Mansell a footnote.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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986 Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 105 Location: Germany Joined: 06/11/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #60 - 09/15/06 at 13:46:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: especially if his opponent is prone to quick draws... I don't agree. Kramnik don't want draws but he wants to win matches/tournaments. And sometimes it's a good choice to make a draw to save energy. I hope Kramnik will win, because of the same reasons John has given. Tom


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #59 - 09/15/06 at 12:38:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	I can’t respect in the slightest anyone who comes out for Ilyumzhinov, for a start. Ilyumzhinov’s a murderous kleptocrat and there’s no excuse for backing him in any way. I also haven’t liked the way Topalov has been boasting about being the real World Champion and dissing Kramnik, and I don’t find his pronouncement that the duty of the World Champion is to make money appealing, although from a different character it might have a certain ironic honesty which I would appreciate.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #58 - 09/15/06 at 12:07:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	IMJohnCox wrote on 09/15/06 at 11:39:53: OK, I think we’re experiencing language difficulties rather than genuinely disagreeing – except that for some extraordinary reason you want Topalov to win. I find Topalov a deeply unsympathetic figure and his popularity very difficult to understand. Hmm, it seems I must've missed a lot of chess gossip, as I have no idea why Topalov would be 'deeply unsymphatetic' - he had some comments about Kramnik being too low rated and there was some accusations about Cheparinov and cheating - which I don't recall being taken too seriously. So, can you give any examples of why you find Topalov so unsymphatetic? Generally, Topalov's popularity seems easy to explain I think, as more players prefer Topalov's aggressive style rather than Kramnik's solidity. The player who tries to win every game will always be more popular among the spectators - especially if his opponent is prone to quick draws...


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #57 - 09/15/06 at 11:39:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK, I think we’re experiencing language difficulties rather than genuinely disagreeing – except that for some extraordinary reason you want Topalov to win. I find Topalov a deeply unsympathetic figure and his popularity very difficult to understand. Your last comment is interesting though. I suspect there’s a little bit of truth in what you say about menus (when Short beat Karpov his second Sosonko claimed in an article about the match that he made all the menu choices and told Short when to go to the lavatory so that the latter could save any energy he might otherwise have used on such decisions for the match – as far as I could tell he was perfectly serious, and actually I can imagine such an approach being effective. Topalov has similarly attributed his increase in strength to having a team around him which takes care of as many decisions as possible, although whether Danailov tells him when to pee I slightly doubt.) But I meant audience reaction: this (ie clapping the moves the audience approved of) does seem once upon a time to have been the norm in Russia. For example Tal speaks of his liking for playing in front of a live audience which reacted to his moves. And didn’t they have to move the sixth (? anyway the KID Tal won with the famous …Nf4 sacrifice) game into a private room in 1960 because the audience was chanting for Tal? And hell, why not? I expect batsmen would prefer it if the crowd didn’t play trumpets during the bowler’s run-up at the West Indies Oval tests, but would the world be a better place?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #56 - 09/15/06 at 11:17:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	Before I reply keep in mind that I am talking margins here. These guys play at such high level that reflections are always magnified to a certain degree. Similar to what happened with Euwe and Alekhine, where the former was painted as the "logician" and the latter as the "improvisor", but if you look at their games this is difficult to maintain it in such wording. IMJohnCox wrote on 09/15/06 at 10:47:47: I don't agree with a word of that! IMHO Topalov needs to play dynamic irrational positions as much as possible. In technical positions Kramnik is stronger. Isnt that what digging into (not digging in as in going defensive) a position means? Ie ala Botwinnik converting a technical advantage into a win even if it takes 80 moves. Quote: I don't at all agree about preparation either; Topalov's recent success, as he's said himself, is based on exceptional preparation and in particular having the total loyalty of a very strong regular second. This is more Topalov's strength than Kramnik's. Yes that is what I mean. This advantage will diminish if Toppy plays the same openings each time and would allow Kramnik to dig into the types of positions better allowing him his "technical" play. Eg let's assume Toppy plays the KI (not likely) and keeps playing it. The first game may catch Kramnik at unawares, but if he repeats the same type of play the next game I feel Kramnik will be better suited to deal with this "position style repetition". Eg in an interview with Spassky he also said that his results were best in matches when openings got repeated as he could then focus on the middle game in his preparation. This is probably why Fischer bombarded him with completely different openings every time. Even an Alekhine twice Quote: Nor do I recognise your description of 'many former Soviet champs'. The only one it could possibly be said to apply to is Botvinnik. And anyway it's a myth that Kramnik's a great match player; he lost to Shirov at a time when on the face of it he was the stronger, and he lost to someone not obviously stronger than him - two people in fact - in the PCA and FIDE cycles in 94-96. Kamsky and someone else, possibly Anand? And this at a time when he was already posting good tournament results and finishing ahead of Gazza from time to time. Problem is that Toppy has even less impressive results in that department. The 'former Soviet champs" refers to for example the famed K-K matches where refinements on previous openings were commonplace. After each match it would be difficult to point to 2 greater experts on eg the QGD. Quote: Interesting Kramnik has Rublevsky on his team. Are we going to see some QGAs? That would be very interesting to see. Quote: I don't reckon much to home advantage either; from what I gather Elista is a hell-hole and won't seem like home to either player. Although I suppose Kramnik might be a little more used to hellholes than Topalov, coming from Pfudz or whatever his birthplace is called, while Sofia might be a little more agreeable. I have no experience with playing WC matches, but I would think that day-to-day things are much easier when in a familiar environment. Such simple things as reading a menu and the dinner itself could impact your focus (or the focus of the seconds). I do doubt we will hear the audience clap every Kramnik move followed by booing Topalovs

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #55 - 09/15/06 at 10:47:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	I don't agree with a word of that! IMHO Topalov needs to play dynamic irrational positions as much as possible. In technical positions Kramnik is stronger. I don't at all agree about preparation either; Topalov's recent success, as he's said himself, is based on exceptional preparation and in particular having the total loyalty of a very strong regular second. This is more Topalov's strength than Kramnik's. Nor do I recognise your description of 'many former Soviet champs'. The only one it could possibly be said to apply to is Botvinnik. And anyway it's a myth that Kramnik's a great match player; he lost to Shirov at a time when on the face of it he was the stronger, and he lost to someone not obviously stronger than him - two people in fact - in the PCA and FIDE cycles in 94-96. Kamsky and someone else, possibly Anand? And this at a time when he was already posting good tournament results and finishing ahead of Gazza from time to time. Interesting Kramnik has Rublevsky on his team. Are we going to see some QGAs? I don't reckon much to home advantage either; from what I gather Elista is a hell-hole and won't seem like home to either player. Although I suppose Kramnik might be a little more used to hellholes than Topalov, coming from Pfudz or whatever his birthplace is called, while Sofia might be a little more agreeable.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #54 - 09/15/06 at 07:01:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think Kramnik is favourite also due to home advantage. However I think and hope Topalov will win. To me it seems that Kramnik is someone who is good at matchplay and who is good in digging into certain positions, similar to many former Soviet champs. Topalov seems to me better at sensing the psychological moment for action and better at improvising. Of course we're talking margins here as I doubt if many people could guess the player just by looking at the game. I think Topalov could use this to his advantage by varying the type of middle game every time. This is basically what Fischer and Karpov did against Spassky. However he has to prepare those very thoroughly as otherwise he may end up fooling himself as for example happened to Korchnoi against Karpov when he didnt play the French.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #53 - 09/15/06 at 05:40:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	I go with Stormcrow. After this Match it will be time for some new Catalan books


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #52 - 09/15/06 at 04:16:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	I will personally be shocked if Kramnik tries to repeat the Berlin Defense against Topalov. It was a great weapon to use in one major match, but that was six years and a lifetime of chess ago. If Kramnik does choose the Berlin, I predict that Topalov will win the match. On the other hand, Kramnik's handling of the QGA still remains fresh and I can see him employing the QGA well as Black. I'm guessing that Kramnik will have found something interesting in one of the side variations of the Sicilian as Black, possibly in the Paulsen-Kan-Taimanov family. Topalov will probably try to win with 1.e4 and get interesting games in the QID complex as Black. If Kramnik also plays 1.e4, then Toppy will almost certainly test out some Scheveningen/Najdorf type of line. I'm stating these as certainties even though they're just guesses. Still, I hope it will make for some interesting responses.


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #51 - 09/14/06 at 17:29:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think the Catalan will be seen as well. Maybe by both players.


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J-dog Senior Member Offline Posts: 283 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Joined: 11/15/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #50 - 09/14/06 at 17:28:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think Kramnik may throw out a surprise and give the QGA a go once or twice as black. I feel Topalov would answer 1.Nf3 with 1...c5 or 1...d5 (Slav). Kramnik will prepare vs. 1.Nf3 with 1...Nf6,2.c4 e6 going for QGD or quasi-Nimzo, or 2...c5 Symmetrical English. Engaging in a Qc2 Nimzo or QID g3 discussion would be critical for the match and interesting to see who comes out on top. I don't think Topalov will risk the KID, but I know he's thinking about it! Every game could conceivably be a Qc2 Nimzo, but it is incredibly unlikely. I would love it though!


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ANDREW BRETT God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 622 Joined: 07/07/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #49 - 09/14/06 at 16:35:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Openings !! If I was Topalov I would try and play both 1d4 and 1 e4 . My hunch is that if he goes 1d4 he'll play either 4Nf3 Nimzo or 4g3 Queens Indian assuming Kramnik plays this. I wouldn't be shocked if Kramnik defends with the Semi-Slav !! Kramik to defend with the Marshall (more likely an anti-Marshall) and the Petroff Kramnik to play 4qc2 Nimzo or 4 e3 Nimzo . Can't see him going 1e4. Top to defend with......Nimzo / Manhattan and his a6 slav. If 1e4 definitely a najdorf. Surprise openings : Scandanavian with Qd6 or the Trompovsky or KID !! My hope is for an action packed 12 games.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #48 - 09/14/06 at 10:26:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	John I hope your right about the QGD - it is nice to see this opening in the World Championship matches. I would not rule out Kramnik playing 1.e4 completely (I know he had some reverses but in general he was in poor form at the time, and if he has done serious prep here I would not put it passed him to prove all the experts wrong on this one, a long shot I know - but lets hope for some surprises!) Contrary to yourself I am hoping for a Topalov win - I dont see a connection between himself and Ilyumzhinov, who I agree is a force of darkness. I wont open that whole argument about previous conduct of Kramnik and Topalov, lets just forget everything and hope for a great chess match in this historical encounter! If Toppy has to defend against the 1.Nf3, 2.c4 stuff then I think it will be one of these 3: 1) straightforward classical chess ...d5,...e6 and QGD as mentioned 2) Hedgehog - maybe less likely - but I can see Toppy defending the double fiancheto line quite happily despite Kramniks deep knowledge of it. 3) KID - could be very interesting! You would think that this was asking for trouble against Kramnik so it may be the least likely, but theoretically I believe KID is in better shape than it has been for many years and this kind of clash could suit Topalov also.


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IMJohnCox God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1551 Location: London Joined: 01/28/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #47 - 09/14/06 at 09:42:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	I would venture to predict the Petroff. I don't think we'll see the Berlin. And against d4 I would anticipate plenty of QGD. It will be interesting to see how it goes when Kramnik is White. In the past he’s been tremendously successful in denying Topalov his sort of play. Whether Topalov will seek dynamic chances as Black and if so how – assuming Kramnik sees sense and bins e4 totally, as I very much hope – against Kramnik’s very solid Nf3/c4 stuff, is the main puzzle I’m looking forward to seeing played out. I’m not even sure what Topalov normally does against that – I’d guess he’d go for some sort of Slav/Semi-Slav. Maybe we’ll see whether Korchnoi’s prediction about the …a6 Slav comes true?! Although Topalov might decide to go for some sort of king’s fianchetto defence, like Shirov did in Caorle, which would certainly be interesting. I very much fear Topalov is likely to win: obviously I am in no position to judge but my feeling is that Kramnik in some sense understands the game better. I think though that physical condition will be the decisive factor. Which would be a great shame, since Kramnik as far as one can see is a gentleman and a force for good in the game, whereas Topalov’s conduct hasn’t impressed me at all. We don’t need Ilyumzhinov in power and his creature as World Champion. Funny, I'm about to go to the Isle of Man; two years ago I was playing there when Kramnik-Leko was on. Must be that time of year again.


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chessy Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 189 Location: Europe Joined: 12/17/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #46 - 09/14/06 at 00:43:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Wow not been canceled till now. So lets hope this time It works... Any predictions for the opening? My predtiction is we will see mostly d4 games by both players and though fights. However I am curious what this times Kramniks preparation against e4 would be. Against Kasparov he surprised me heavily with the Berlin, against Leko the petroff wasnt a big surprise but the frequence of novelitys was still impressive. What will be the choice agaist Topalov? Anyway what will be Topolovs strategy? Stay by one opening or switch.... ? any other predictions?


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #45 - 08/31/06 at 12:48:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	There's a very famous sequence that occurred in Lugano in the match between Karpov and Korchnoi. The scene was recreated brilliantly in the movie, Dangerous Moves, which won an Oscar for best foreign film in (?)1985(?).


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StuntLinguist YaBB Newbies Offline Pronouncer of strange and difficult words. Posts: 42 Location: columbia Joined: 10/09/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #44 - 08/31/06 at 04:00:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	A few more comments from Kirsan about the K-T match. http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3306 Quote: More than one hundred journalists have been accredited. In addition there will be experts in extrasensory perception. Ilyumzhinov: "My informers did not tell which exactly team will be using them, but they assure that such experts will be present in the audience. There is an opinion that such persons – sorcerers as I call them – can influence the opponent and to prevent him from thinking, in some way. I do not particularly believe such fairy tales, as during the elections of 2002 (in Kalmykia) my opponent was assisted by some of that kind, without any success. But each participant of the match can bring with him up to ten persons. If this includes the sorcerers, they will be accredited." I never before realized this was so important. This MUST be the reason that I'm not yet a GM. Severe deficiency of sorcerers. You guys think this is real? and if so, which side do you think is bringing them? Also, will the participants be allowed to wear aluminum foil hats to block the extra-sensory attacks? Stunt


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #43 - 08/21/06 at 21:00:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	It looked like some sort of deer that got stuck in the glare of an oncoming semi. Maybe that was supposed to represent FIDE? It was created by the Quote: well-known Kalmyk painter S. Badendaev. Ok, hands up all who have heard of this well-known painter before, and what's his first name? (I'm guessing it's a he by his last name.)


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #42 - 08/21/06 at 05:41:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ilyumzhinov is the Head of the Republic of Kalmykia. The animal depicted is a species of antelope whose dwelling are the steppes of Kalmykia. Since Kirsan couldn't put his own face on the WCh logo (or could he?), I guess he settled for a local mammal.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #41 - 08/21/06 at 05:18:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: The official logo and mascot of the World Chess Championship Match is shown on the right. The animal depicted is a baby saiga, a species of antelope whose dwelling are the steppes of Kalmykia. The designer of the logo is the well-known Kalmyk painter S. Badendaev. From the chessbase article...though maybe this doesn't really answer your question.


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #40 - 08/21/06 at 03:52:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ostap, Thanks for the link to chessbase! I have two questions: a) who came up with the logo for the event? and b) what the heck is it supposed to be?


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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #39 - 08/20/06 at 19:34:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	How did you get those pictures of that mafiosi sit-down, Ostap?


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #38 - 08/20/06 at 16:39:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	The Schedule http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3291

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #37 - 07/21/06 at 02:22:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	RE: "Again, I appreciate your thoughtful comments and apologize for anything you may have seen as a personal attack on you (singular)." Absolutely no problems. As I said, I assume it wasn't mostly towards me and the whole thing is mostly in fun anyway. Best.

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #36 - 07/21/06 at 02:15:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	And while it might be a bit off topic .... sorry all.... I wanted to mention "Alekhine isn't quite as monstrous as he was made out to be after WWII", I completely agree. The anti-semitic letters which were attributed to him were found to be forced upon him in order to protect his wife. And as for avoiding a rematch with Capablanca...well, Lasker was a master of choosing his opponents and almost no one tries to attack him for doing so. Frankly, it was the correct decision from a professional standpoint. Who would want to face Capablanca, escpecially when he's actually preparred for the match? No way. I'd rather get Bogo any day of the week and the Champion had the priviledge of choosing his challenger in those days. Now, back on topic....Kramnik is going to win the match. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact Kramnik won against KAsparov when he was 25, and yet most chess players reach their peak in their early 30's. Kramnik is 31. If he's healthy (and that's a big IF) I don't think Topalov can do any better than his record against Vladimir shows.

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #35 - 07/21/06 at 02:07:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nietzsche, (and all) My apologies for my rant in this thread. It belonged in the other thread on who the best player is. I was taking the opportunity to attack another comment about Capablanca when I saw that you mentioned he was your favorite. The fact that I addressed the comment specifically to you was a mistake, and my apologies for coming off too harshly. When you (plural, not Nietzsche alone) read the comments of some other(s) in the other thread, you may perhaps guess dimly why I am against so much metaphor and simile talk about Capa being the best ever. Again, I appreciate your thoughtful comments and apologize for anything you may have seen as a personal attack on you (singular).


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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #34 - 07/21/06 at 01:35:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	QUOTE: "there may be some room to argue the point, but please review the record of Capa before mentioning him in the same company as those three. Even Steinitz and Lasker should be placed ahead of Capa." Wow, that was a surprise. First of all, I didn't mention Capablanca at all except to say he was my favorite. I didn't mention his relation to Kasparov, Karpov, or Fischer in terms of ability at all. In another thread on the "Greatest Player of all time", I argued that while Morphy deserves more respect than was being afforded to him, and that Fischer is an intelligent choice as the greatest, I personally think of Kasparov as the greatest player of all time. I mentioned Kasparov's incredible record, his wonderful matches against Karpov, and the fact that he maintained #1 in the World for 20 years and defended his title many times (whereas Fischer walked away). I didn't mention Capablanca at all when arguing who was the greatest player. I just like the guy's style. If I had a choice between playing a game with Kasparov or a game with Capablanca I'd choose the latter. But I still think Kasparov is the better chess player (partially because of the tremendous work ethic you alluded to). Also, Kasparov is a much better technical player than he is credited for. He won many endgames with just a slight edge against guys like Karpov, Ulf Andersson, Smylov, etc. He also defended brilliantly when called upon to do so. But all this is beside the point...'favorite player' and 'greatest player' are two seperate things all together. Just as I'd pick Fischer to win in a match against Lasker, but I'd be cheering for Lasker.... So, I'm a little unsure why you're telling me about how lazy Capablanca was and how Steinitz and Lasker should be placed ahead of him. I didn't place him ahead of anybody except as my personal favorite; and I can't presume that you're actually trying to tell me who I should prefer as my own personal favorite player?? Just as I doubt you think of Smyslov is the strongest player of all time (or MNb's Spielmann affinity). I never argued that Capablanca was a better player than any other player (though he is certainly better than most). Sorry for any misunderstanding between us; although I'm sure your post is made mostly in jest. Still, I have nothing but respect for you and your opinions. All this means that I'm afraid the bulk of the tongue lashing was meant for poor Dragan Glas. Cheers, Nietzsche PS - I must also assume you weren't referring to me when you suggested I "review the record of Capa before mentioning him in the same company as those three." As I never mentioned him in such a way and I'm quite familiar with his record (the guy IS my favorite player after all...). And for people who do want to learn more about Capablanca the man, I heartily recommend Edgar Winter's book (which I bought for a mere $6 at a used book store...see the Gods repay true faith).

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #33 - 07/20/06 at 22:36:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nietzsche, Once again, you've provided us with some excellent points and interesting web links. Thanks! Just because you've been so nice, and Dragan Glas, in another thread has also been such a good sport, I'm going to give you two both a tongue-lashing for liking Capablanca so much. Yes, Capa was a great natural chess genius, but he boy was he a bad liar. He once claimed to have gone over 1000 R+P endings. Fischer said that if Capa had indeed done that, he went over the wrong ones! Capa was lazy to the point of blundering in openings and being outplayed in endgames by several players, most notably Lasker, Rubinstein and ... Alekhine! Again, Capa probably deserves the title of greatest natural chess genius. But what a waste. He was a gentleman in the truest sense of the age. That is, he routinely looked down upon those who were not made gentle by his company. His political sentiments spilled over to the chess board where he was described as arrogant by some of the less tactful opponents. His admirers considered this to be his natural nobility. What, behind a cloud of cigar smoke? Anyway, being a great natural genius (the story of his learning to play chess may even be apocryphal), has a great burden. Garry Kasparov was given the same moniker, but he also learned the work ethic of one of the hardest working World Champions ever (Botvinnik). Capablanca was born to greatness, Kasparov achieved greatness. There was a time when I rather liked Capablanca and disliked Alekhine. Then I learned the world is not as black and white as some magazines would have us believe. Alekhine isn't quite as monstrous as he was made out to be after WWII, and his fictitious games were still fantastic learning models. Capablanca created his own fictions, but they were more about his persona. Karpov was the victim of American rage until the Cold War was over. Now there's some major revision being done to his character. Even with Karpov's reputation being restored, Kasparov comes out ahead of Karpov and Fischer as the best player ever. Ok, so there may be some room to argue the point, but please review the record of Capa before mentioning him in the same company as those three. Even Steinitz and Lasker should be placed ahead of Capa. Who knows, maybe even Alekhin, for all his flaws should be ahead of Capa!


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #32 - 07/20/06 at 21:30:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: I mentioned earlier that "Topalov's unexpected hubris after San Luis almost ensures he'll face Caissa's wrath." And a few other people have also mentioned that might not have been the smartest thing Topalov has ever done. I'm sure it was not calculated this way, but a very favorable consequence of Topalov's post-San Luis, disparaging remarks about Kramnik's worthiness is the heightened interest in the outcome of this match (actually, I'm not so sure this was entirely uncalculated...). Quote: PS - I really can't wait for this match to start! Its going to be a classic. Q.E.D.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #31 - 07/20/06 at 20:39:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	I mentioned earlier that "Topalov's unexpected hubris after San Luis almost ensures he'll face Caissa's wrath." And a few other people have also mentioned that might not have been the smartest thing Topalov has ever done. However... QUOTE: "Kramnik, being a real gentleman, hasn't responded to those remarks by Topalov." Actually he did respond but did so in his typical, elegant manner (also typical of World Champions of old) and not in an emotional tirade or a personal attack on Topalov. In brief: "Should anyone, like Topalov, believe that he is stronger, let him beat me in a match." But I wanted to take the opportunity to quote a bit more of Kramnik's response to Topalov (from an interview with 64) for those that haven't read it. I think its brilliant and it shows the quiet strength of Kramnik (which is also evident from his games). Vladimir's calm, gentlemanly demeanor and is one of the reasons he is my favorite player (unless Capablanca is resurrected). Enjoy! "I've read comments in the press that Veselin does not believe I am a worthy contender for the title, giving my relatively low rating as the basis for his argument. I believe this is just his emotions speaking. World championship and tournament performance are two entirely separate entities. In chess history the World Champion has not always scored brilliantly in tournaments. One could even go as far as to say that this is rather more an exception than a rule. Petrosian, Spassky, and Botvinnik never won too many tournaments, but nobody ever had any doubts as to the legitimacy of their titles. I'd like to stress once more: I firmly believe that I am the real World Chess Champion. I won this title in a contest against the thirteenth World Champion Garry Kasparov and later defended my title in a match against Peter Leko. My title is legitimate and this was acknowledged even by FIDE in the Prague Accords. Should anyone, like Topalov, believe that he is stronger, let him beat me in a match." For more from this interesting article see http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2694 And if you missed what it is that Kramnik is responding to... read this: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2693 PS - I really can't wait for this match to start! Its going to be a classic.

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #30 - 07/20/06 at 17:19:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Since San Luis Topalov has looked almost mortal. Topalov brings to the table two really strong ingredients (apart from his style): a) he obviously works very hard before tournaments (and presumably matches) that he considers special b) his fighting spirit is really great. He won games from even positions against some of the best players in the world in San Luis. Kramnik, even during his match with Kasparov, let a few wins go. Granted, he was always pressing Kasparov, and wasn't intimidated by him. I doubt Kramnik will be intimidated this time. Kramnik was listed by Time magazine as one of the top 10 sportsmen of the year in 2000 because he trained seriously and performed magnificently. This is the most important chess event of Kramnik's life. Yes, his match with Kasparov helped to make his reputation, but there was such an air of inevitability about that one that even if Kramnik didn't win in 2000, one felt that he would win eventually. His close match with Leko was exciting, but again, he was expected by most pundits to win that one. This time, Kramnik needs to win against Topalov to validate his own claim to the World title and his decision not to participate in various FIDE sponsored "championship" tournaments. Topalov has the disadvantage of having won a title only to find that it wasn't real. Now he has to gird himself for another, more difficult battle knowing that if he loses he won't be able to defend his title.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #29 - 07/20/06 at 16:08:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	I see your point HgMan, and I must have a look at those games. However another part of me just cannot believe Kramnik can jump back into the type of form he needs to beat Topalov. The olympiad was a good sign for him, and if he can produce the required form against Topalov I will take my hat off to him, but I just cant see it happening. Toppy has been a revelation, and if he was 10 years younger we would be talking of him in Fischeresque terms, I think he is playing some really great stuff at the moment. One thing is sure, it will be a great match to follow, and great clash of styles


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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #28 - 07/20/06 at 14:56:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Keano wrote on 07/20/06 at 13:40:05: HgMan wrote on 07/19/06 at 19:47:51: Health issues and recent form notwithstanding, Kramnik has an impressive +10 record against Topalov over the course of their careers, according to ChessBase. That doesn't take out rapid games, etc., but Topalov has a +1 score against Kramnik when Topalov is White, while Kramnik's +11 score with the White pieces is rather startling, especially when you notice that in two recent losses with the White pieces (at Corus 2005 and Sofia MTel 2005), Kramnik played 1 e4. Kramnik's only other loss with White to Topalov came in 2000 at the Amber Rapids. To make matters worse, the last time Topalov beat Kramnik with White at a regular time setting was in 1996 at Las Palmas (and earlier that year in Novgorod). Topalov seems to have an advantage in rapid play games, but I don't know how much stock you want to put in those for the match... Very interesting statistics HgMan - I didnt realise Kramnik had such a good record against Topalov....that being said I think I am one of the very few players who tend to take little notice of these type of statistics - patterns like these I have seen reversed over the other way and basically what happened in the past has happened for a variety of reasons, many of which may not exist anymore. In short, I have not a clue who will win this match Oh, I don't think these statistics mean a great deal at all. There's little question that Topalov's game improved markedly over the last year, while Kramnik's fell off. While the statistics aren't especially telling, some of the games, however, are. It would appear that in rapid games, Topalov has a much easier time getting the kinds of positions he likes against Kramnik, while Kramnik makes it difficult for Topalov to play his dynamic game in longer time controls. It is striking to see how effectively Kramnik snuffed the life out of Topalov's positions...

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #27 - 07/20/06 at 13:40:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	HgMan wrote on 07/19/06 at 19:47:51: Health issues and recent form notwithstanding, Kramnik has an impressive +10 record against Topalov over the course of their careers, according to ChessBase. That doesn't take out rapid games, etc., but Topalov has a +1 score against Kramnik when Topalov is White, while Kramnik's +11 score with the White pieces is rather startling, especially when you notice that in two recent losses with the White pieces (at Corus 2005 and Sofia MTel 2005), Kramnik played 1 e4. Kramnik's only other loss with White to Topalov came in 2000 at the Amber Rapids. To make matters worse, the last time Topalov beat Kramnik with White at a regular time setting was in 1996 at Las Palmas (and earlier that year in Novgorod). Topalov seems to have an advantage in rapid play games, but I don't know how much stock you want to put in those for the match... Very interesting statistics HgMan - I didnt realise Kramnik had such a good record against Topalov....that being said I think I am one of the very few players who tend to take little notice of these type of statistics - patterns like these I have seen reversed over the other way and basically what happened in the past has happened for a variety of reasons, many of which may not exist anymore. In short, I have not a clue who will win this match


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Excalibur YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 27 Joined: 07/12/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #26 - 07/20/06 at 13:30:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	I agree with SCHOLAR......... Topalov shouldn't have made those remarks about Kramnik being unworthy. I think those remarks is a real blemish. Kramnik, being a real gentleman, hasn't responded to those remarks by Topalov.


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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #25 - 07/20/06 at 01:12:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/19/06 at 23:46:35: First: it will renew the discussion of match-play championships. I really believe that this is the best way to determine a champion. You can use tournaments to whittle down the number of candidates as Seirawan and Sonas have suggested, but they agree that a match for the championship is the best way to determine that the best player is champion. I agree. I would add another point: Topalov's remarks about Kramnik not being a worthy challenger did not earn him my respect. Kramnik has the talent to completely shut Topalov down (see Kramnik-Kasparov 2000 for details) and I hope to see some quality chess.


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #24 - 07/19/06 at 23:46:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	For me, a Kramnik win would probably be the best thing for chess in general for two reasons: First: it will renew the discussion of match-play championships. I really believe that this is the best way to determine a champion. You can use tournaments to whittle down the number of candidates as Seirawan and Sonas have suggested, but they agree that a match for the championship is the best way to determine that the best player is champion. Second: A Kramnik win would revitalize the chess scene. Topalov wouldn't appear invincible, FIDE would have to reconsider what to do with its tournament, and Anand would enter into the equation as a wild card just before the next generation of great players start pushing these guys out. It would encourage organizers to put up money for more tournaments with the Big Three (K-A-T) and the next tier of players fighting it out. I think that a Topalov victory would encourage a stagnant status quo.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #23 - 07/19/06 at 21:56:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sure Kramnik has lost from Sjirov in 1998, but I think it safe to state, that Kramnik considerably has improved since then. In fact, since 2000 Kramnik has won two times against Sjirov (Linares 2000, Wijk aan Zee 2001) and only lost one (Wijk aan Zee 2003). Though I hope that Topalov will win (six years have been long enough, Topa's games are so exciting), I think Kramnik at his best is the better player.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #22 - 07/19/06 at 19:47:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Health issues and recent form notwithstanding, Kramnik has an impressive +10 record against Topalov over the course of their careers, according to ChessBase. That doesn't take out rapid games, etc., but Topalov has a +1 score against Kramnik when Topalov is White, while Kramnik's +11 score with the White pieces is rather startling, especially when you notice that in two recent losses with the White pieces (at Corus 2005 and Sofia MTel 2005), Kramnik played 1 e4. Kramnik's only other loss with White to Topalov came in 2000 at the Amber Rapids. To make matters worse, the last time Topalov beat Kramnik with White at a regular time setting was in 1996 at Las Palmas (and earlier that year in Novgorod). Topalov seems to have an advantage in rapid play games, but I don't know how much stock you want to put in those for the match...

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #21 - 07/19/06 at 19:10:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm predicting Kramnik as well (more extensive match experience should count for something), but I'd certainly be hesitant to wager any money on the outcome (no tapping into college savings for my kids ). Such a contrast of styles will make it both exciting and difficult to predict. Quirks I've notice from past matchups add to my uncertainty. For example, iirc Kramnik has a pretty good record against Kasparov (which was certainly highlighted in 2000); Shirov has a pretty good record against Kramnik (especially in Kramnik's pre-Wch years); but Shirov has an abysmal record against Kasparov! Competition can produce some strange-looking 'math' (no commutative transitive property anyway). [Edit: It was pointed out to me (politely, in a PM) that it should say transitive above. Commutative refers to something else. ]
	« Last Edit: 07/20/06 at 14:20:52 by OstapBender »
	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Excalibur YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 27 Joined: 07/12/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #20 - 07/19/06 at 16:37:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	It's a million dollar question..........So after thinking about it a long time, I now think that Kramnik might win the match up after all (though Topalov's current rating is very high), due to his long time mastery of strategic chess. Topalov is a superb tactitian, but Kramnik is sure to be prepared against him, and will most probably dump his lesser successful lines, to unleash his sound repertoire. We can expect some super games if the match takes place.


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #19 - 07/19/06 at 06:00:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	Excalibur wrote on 07/19/06 at 05:48:57: Hey, OstapBender! I started the same poll recently, but today I realized you had started the same poll much earlier. So I deleted my poll. Best regards. Yes, after Kramnik's nice performance in the Turin Olympiad I started to think that the Kramnik-Topalov Wch match might be a lot harder to predict than it seemed after Topalov's unbelievable performance in San Luis. So... What's your prediction?

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Excalibur YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 27 Joined: 07/12/06	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #18 - 07/19/06 at 05:48:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hey, OstapBender! I started the same poll recently, but today I realized you had started the same poll much earlier. So I deleted my poll. Best regards.


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #17 - 07/19/06 at 04:58:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks, Ostap. There's another, more recent poll going on with the same question but fewer options. With only two options, I voted for Kramnik. In this poll, back in May, I voted for cynicism. I'm beginning to be more optimistic as Kramnik's health improves and Topalov's bad-mouthing of Kramnik gets quieter. (Remember, about a week after San Luis that Topalov stated that a player of such low rating didn't deserve a match against Topalov!)


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #16 - 07/18/06 at 18:37:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	As the day in question starts to get closer, I thought maybe it's time to bump this old thread. I voted for Kramnik during Turin, based on the evidence that he is back in top form - and Topalov still lacks match experience. However, Kramnik did lose a match to Shirov en route to 'qualifying" to play his Wch match against Kasparov in 2000 (don't think I'll ever quite be able to accept that strange turn of events!). Don't think Kramnik was out of form then - was he? So Topalov may have just the type playing style it takes to throw Kramnik off his stride (I always thought of Topalov as kind of Shirov-like, although perhaps not as much of a risk taker - his exchange sac addiction, however, may suggest otherwise ).

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #15 - 06/08/06 at 04:14:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	We will have a better idea of Kramnik's form after Dortmund, which starts next month, but i think the Olympiad was already quite convincing, mainly because he emerged superior in tactical complications against young players (Bruzon, Naiditsch). I especially liked the game against Bruzon, while watching the game, I was wondering how White should proceed in the early middlegame, while it seemed like Black had fairly straightforward plans to consolidate his extra pawn, but Kramnik showed profound understanding of the position: it seems like Bruzon can't really do anything without weakening himself either! Kramnik has been beating Topalov with fairly good regularity (even in 2004 and 2005), while his own losses against Topalov were only as White playing 1. e4 against Topalov's Najdorf. If Kramnik avoids 1. e4 and going for the Najdorf (and we can be almost 100% sure of this, since Topa has proven himself unbeatable in this opening lately), then I guess we will be seeing alot of.... the Chebanenko Slav!! I think Korchnoi once said that the 4... a6 slav "won't last a world championship match", maybe its time for his prediction to be tested


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #14 - 06/08/06 at 02:28:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Being an atheist I join your prayer.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #13 - 06/07/06 at 06:15:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm pretty sure if Kramnik plays the match the way he played in Torino, we're looking at a unified chess world with Kramnik on top. 2847! is a mighty nice performance and his games (as white) tended to be full-blooded and sharp. By the way, it was also exciting to see Kramnik handle (world #3) Aronian so easily and then absolutely crush Bruzon (who had a stellar Olympiad otherwise; bravo to the Cuban!). Of course Topalov seems to have his mojo working as well! His "last lap" amazing comebacks are almost becoming expected. This match is going to be wonderful if both players stay in their current form. Regardless of who wins it should be theoretically interesting as well as exciting to watch . Please God, don't let this match go the way of Kasparov-Shirov or Fischer-Karpov.

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Tater_Salad Junior Member Offline the only prescription is more cowbell Posts: 95 Location: Squalor Joined: 10/28/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #12 - 06/06/06 at 04:52:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	i think topalov is stronger, but kramnik is smarter. i'd put my money on kramnik if there actually is a match.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #11 - 06/06/06 at 01:41:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Mark Crowther on TWIC: "the return of Vladimir Kramnik saw him achieve the top rating performance in the event" Topalov is by far not WCh yet.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #10 - 05/29/06 at 07:22:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	If and that is a big if it comes to a match methinks Topalov will win easily, maybe not with a huge margin, but never really in danger of losing the match. For starters I think he is better at sensing chances in the middle game, plus I think his style is something that doesnt suit Kramnik, he had similar problems with Shirov in their match. And dont forget Topalov has had some excellent results lately, I am almost beginning to suspect he can create a 4.5/5 run any time he wants

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Scholar God Member Offline Posts: 557 Location: Chicago Joined: 04/26/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #9 - 05/27/06 at 18:47:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	I also voted for cancellation...but I don't think it'll be Kramnik's health that'll be the problem... If it goes on, I'll be rooting for Kramnik; it's hard to know what kind of shape he'll be in -- he's had a very rough last couple of years chesswise, and especially concerning is his apparent fatigue late in games when he throws them away with essentially one-move blunders. If he's well, I think Kramnik will win the match quite handily. But really, if the match occurs at all it will be a great victory for chessfans everywhere -- although I hope that the match is decisive without resorting to tiebreaks.


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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #8 - 05/27/06 at 17:26:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	I would love to see Kramnik win because a) I like Kramnik, and more importantly, b) it would show FIDE that the tournament isn't really the best way to determine a champion. After all, Topalov didn't show any superiority over Anand in San Luis. He showed greater efficiency at knocking off lower players, but could only draw his mini-match with Vishy. I have serious questions about Kramnik's health, which is why I voted that it would get cancelled. If Kramnik is healthy, he should be a slight favorite because of his match-play skill and experience. It would be a great match, and a further mistake to disallow the loser to play in the FIDE tournament. Oh well.


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woofwoof God Member Offline chess is like life Posts: 929 Location: Singapore Joined: 07/04/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #7 - 05/27/06 at 16:02:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	The way i see it, the only way Topa will have the best chance to overcome Kramnik is thro mimicry of Kramnik's game. Time and time again Ive seen (not just in chess) where there is an aggressor individual/team coming up against a hyper-defensive opponent, the aggressors always lose - too many holes in defense which just lets the defensive opponent exploit when the time is right. Fischer couldnt beat Petosian until he started mimicking Tigran's play. Spassky won in 69 due to some degree in mimicry. Tal lost soundly against Botvinnik when he failed to adapt his game to suit Botvinnik's constrictive tactics in 61. (ill health not withstanding). Tal-Botvinnik 17th game 1960 is a good example of the point I speak in 1st paragraph. Tal would have lost to Botvinnik if not for a very grave blunder in time trouble. The same in football esp in Euro 2004. The aggressors all lost to the hyper defensive Greeks! However in recent times, we have also seen Kramnik attempting to play more lively chess & blundering more in the process. The olympiad have also shown kramnik still persisting with lively play. So if Kramnik also decides to play lively chess in the match, then Topa would have a much better chance of overcoming Kramnik. Petrosian did attempt to play more lively chess in the 70's but wasnt so successful.

	"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #6 - 05/27/06 at 13:46:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	I don't think Topalov can afford to start slowly. It seems to me that unabalancing the position in one's favor against someone as technically sound as Kramnik could be a rather difficult proposition. I'd have to go back over old games Kramnik played against Topalov and Shirov, but my sense if that his play is less likely to crumble. That is, of course, if he manages to come into the match in good form. I haven't voted on the result of the match yet, because I'm still on the fence. Either way, I expect it will be very closely fought...

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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Nietzsche Senior Member Offline Huggy Bear is coming. You'd better run. Posts: 394 Location: USA Joined: 02/13/06 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #5 - 05/27/06 at 10:05:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	WOW! I was planning on coming in and having to defend Kramnik against all the Topalov fans. I am amazed that so many of you think Kramnik will win. You've restored my faith in the chess community. Topalov does not have great result against Kramnik and Kramnik has become an excellent match player. However, Topalov can really "dig in" and pull off several spectacular wins in a row. When he really wants it, he is a beast. So, I expect plenty of fireworks. I was so happy to see Nf3/c4 from Kramnik recently. The e4 stuff felt like Louis Armstrong playing a trombone. I would imagine that Kramnik will avoid e4 in order to not face Topalov in the Najdorf but who knows? Both players have lots of ideas and both are excellent technical players (Kramnik may be the best in the world). I am very excited about this match and I pray its not cancelled. I predict Kramnik starts strong (as usual) and Topalov starts poorly. Maybe 3.0-1.0 They cruise for a few games then Topalov unloads several exchange sacrifices to unbalance the game and the last few are slugfests with Toppy closing the gap but the solid Kramnik wins the match by a full point and with an extra white pawn in his pocket. There is much rejoicing. By the way, if Kramnik does win... is the Topalov-Radjabov match still on? Cheers. ps - If nothing else Topalov's unexpected hubris after San Luis almost ensures he'll face Caissa's wrath. He spoke like Kramnik wasn't in his league anymore! tsk tsk.

	"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #4 - 05/27/06 at 02:57:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	If Topalov starts as slow as he has done in recent tournaments, I am not sure at all, he will be able to dethrone Kramnik.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #3 - 05/26/06 at 16:38:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	I always thought Kramnik's style was a refined version of Karpov's--demonstrating an intensely sophisticated understanding of the positions on the board. Karpov, I know, played 1 e4, but Kramnik's play always seemed more consistent with 1 d4/Nf3. I don't think he can match Topalov's aggressive play, so a more positional match might be more to his suiting...

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2928 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #2 - 05/26/06 at 09:55:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik played a few nice games with 1.e4 in between all the blunders, but he did not adapt to it in the way that Kasparov did when he made the switch. Will be interesting to see if he has abandoned 1.e4 for good now as it still early days, but there are signs of the old Kramnik returning now. Still too early to say for sure though!


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: Kramnik-Topalov match Reply #1 - 05/26/06 at 00:57:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	its been just a few rounds, so can't say much about Kramnik's form yet. But i thought Kramnik's win against Naiditsch was more significant, that game was rather tactical, which Kramnik won easily, indicating that his calculation and concentration is in good shape. And i always knew Kramnik will be back in business the moment he goes back to his 1. Nf3/1. d4 stuff!


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Kramnik-Topalov match 05/25/06 at 17:35:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik's win over Aronian today got me thinking. Maybe it's a good time for a poll on the upcoming Wch match...

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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