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Poll Question: Best non-QG after 1.d4 d5
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« Created by: TalJechin on: 06/18/06 at 20:46:00 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a QG? (Read 52438 times)
Willempie
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #94 - 04/11/07 at 09:03:08
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The question mark was there to offset our original exclam  Smiley
But yes I am more of an initiave killer/endgame enthusiast than a isolani addict. To illustrate my point here's a game from last year in this exact line. I never heard of the black player, but if he beats Vaisser with it...

[Event "FRA-chT Top 16 GpA"]
[Site "Nancy"]
[Date "2006.02.03"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Vaisser,Anatoli"]
[Black "Galdunts,Sergey"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D40"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.a3 cxd4 7.exd4 dxc4 8.Bxc4 Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Re1 b6 11.d5 Na5 12.Ba2 Nxd5 13.Nxd5 exd5 14.Qxd5 Be6 15.Qxd8 Raxd8 16.Bxe6 fxe6 17.b4 Bf6 18.Ra2 Nc4 19.b5 Bc3 20.Rf1 Nd6 21.a4 Ne4 22.h3 Rc8 23.Ng5 Nxg5 24.Bxg5 Bd4 25.Re1 Rf5 26.Bh4 Kf7 27.g4 Rfc5 28.Ree2 h5 29.Bg3 hxg4 30.hxg4 Rc3 31.Kg2 R8c4 32.Re4 e5
0-1

  

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Markovich
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #93 - 04/07/07 at 16:09:30
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Willempie wrote on 04/06/07 at 06:14:33:
I am talking something along the lines:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bxc4 e6 5.Nf3 c5 which if memory serves correctly is the main line. Now 6.a3 is definately not the most testing move to use an understatement.

I can transpose to your line by 6.a3 Nc6 (I wouldnt play it in this position, but I think it isnt bad at all) but I still dont see the advantage. Eg
1. d4 d5  2. c4 e6  3. Nc3 c5  4. Nf3 Nc6  5. e3 Nf6  6. a3?! dxc4 7.Bxc4 cxd4 8.exd4 Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Re1 b6 and now I think only 11.d5 makes sense to take advantage of the bishop's position, though I doubt you can get much after 11...exd5.


I can only say that your understanding of chess is very different from mine if you would mark 6. a3 with "?!".  This is considered a good move in my sources, as well.  I'm not saying that White is burning up the chessboard, only that he is playing good chess.

Also I think that White's chances are very good after 9. 0-0 in the line you quote.
« Last Edit: 04/08/07 at 13:38:16 by Markovich »  

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MNb
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #92 - 04/06/07 at 20:52:41
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I would say, that 7...cxd4 is premature. Exactly in those IQP positions the move 2.a3 (or 6.a3) can become useful. All in all I agree with Willempie though.
  

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Willempie
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #91 - 04/06/07 at 06:14:33
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I am talking something along the lines:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bxc4 e6 5.Nf3 c5 which if memory serves correctly is the main line. Now 6.a3 is definately not the most testing move to use an understatement.

I can transpose to your line by 6.a3 Nc6 (I wouldnt play it in this position, but I think it isnt bad at all) but I still dont see the advantage. Eg
1. d4 d5  2. c4 e6  3. Nc3 c5  4. Nf3 Nc6  5. e3 Nf6  6. a3?! dxc4 7.Bxc4 cxd4 8.exd4 Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Re1 b6 and now I think only 11.d5 makes sense to take advantage of the bishop's position, though I doubt you can get much after 11...exd5.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #90 - 04/05/07 at 18:52:07
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Markovich wrote on 04/05/07 at 17:32:14:
Willempie wrote on 04/05/07 at 06:59:24:
Markovich wrote on 04/03/07 at 21:09:29:
Willempie: "I am not so sure about the QGA lines. So if black just goes e6, d5 and when c4 comes just plays dxc4."  This is good for White, surely.

Why? The capture on c4 is a decent option in for example the Petrosian qid, to which it can easily transpose.


Can it be we're not talking about the same line?  1. d4 e6  2. a3 d5  3. e3 and now say 3...Nf6  4. c4 or 3...c5 4. c4, I don't think an immediate or early ...dxc4 is very good for Black.  Both sides of the QGD Normal have the theme of an early a3 (or a6), since it facilitates play with the IQP.  E.g. 1. d4 d5  2. c4 e6  3. Nc3 c5  4. Nf3 Nc6  5. e3 Nf6  6. a3! after which Black's 6...dxc4 would be considered a somewhat problematic move.  Black should at least wait until White moves his KB.  A good move for Black, indeed, is 6...a6.  

But even with the black pieces, and even if White doesn't play a3, you can play ...a6, play your KB to e7 or d6, and still have a fairly reasonable game when White plays dxc5 followed by cxd5, saddling you with the IQP and loss of tempo.

The pawn on a3 facilitates ideas like Bc4-b3-c2, Qd3.  Or on occasion, Bc4-a2-b1, Qd3.  And a6 analogously with the black pieces.


But this sounds like you could be heading for/transposing to something like 1. d4 d5 2. c4 dc 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6 4. Bxc4 c5 5. a3, i.e. fine for Black.  I agree that 6. a3 dc in that Semi-Tarrasch seems doubtful for Black, but I think it has to do with the early...Nc6 being unfavorable in that environment.
  
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Markovich
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #89 - 04/05/07 at 17:32:14
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Willempie wrote on 04/05/07 at 06:59:24:
Markovich wrote on 04/03/07 at 21:09:29:
Willempie: "I am not so sure about the QGA lines. So if black just goes e6, d5 and when c4 comes just plays dxc4."  This is good for White, surely.

Why? The capture on c4 is a decent option in for example the Petrosian qid, to which it can easily transpose.


Can it be we're not talking about the same line?  1. d4 e6  2. a3 d5  3. e3 and now say 3...Nf6  4. c4 or 3...c5 4. c4, I don't think an immediate or early ...dxc4 is very good for Black.  Both sides of the QGD Normal have the theme of an early a3 (or a6), since it facilitates play with the IQP.  E.g. 1. d4 d5  2. c4 e6  3. Nc3 c5  4. Nf3 Nc6  5. e3 Nf6  6. a3! after which Black's 6...dxc4 would be considered a somewhat problematic move.  Black should at least wait until White moves his KB.  A good move for Black, indeed, is 6...a6. 

But even with the black pieces, and even if White doesn't play a3, you can play ...a6, play your KB to e7 or d6, and still have a fairly reasonable game when White plays dxc5 followed by cxd5, saddling you with the IQP and loss of tempo.

The pawn on a3 facilitates ideas like Bc4-b3-c2, Qd3.  Or on occasion, Bc4-a2-b1, Qd3.  And a6 analogously with the black pieces.
  

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Willempie
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #88 - 04/05/07 at 06:59:24
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Markovich wrote on 04/03/07 at 21:09:29:
Willempie: "I am not so sure about the QGA lines. So if black just goes e6, d5 and when c4 comes just plays dxc4."  This is good for White, surely.

Why? The capture on c4 is a decent option in for example the Petrosian qid, to which it can easily transpose.
  

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Markovich
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #87 - 04/03/07 at 21:09:29
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TalJechin wrote on 03/28/07 at 18:27:24:
By the way, why should 1.d4 d5 2.Nd2!? be inferior to 2.a3,?


Well, 2. Nd2 is inferior to 2. a3, I think.  I would much sooner play the White side of a QGD, "Normal Variation" than a Colle or -- may the gods forfend! -- a Stonewall.

But 2. Nd2 does remind me of an offhand game played by Al Horowitz as White: 1. d4 Nf6  2. Nd2 e5  3. dxe5 Ng5  4. h3?? Ne3.  Having thus lost his queen, he went on to win.

Willempie: "I am not so sure about the QGA lines. So if black just goes e6, d5 and when c4 comes just plays dxc4."  This is good for White, surely.
  

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Willempie
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #86 - 03/29/07 at 09:36:49
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Markovich wrote on 03/28/07 at 15:38:21:
Call it what you like, but in itself, 1...e6  is not exactly an ambitious move.  The point about the Tarrasch is not that a3 is occasionally played there, but that it is entirely useful in that context; so having played 2. a3 and seen 2...d5, White should steer toward the Tarrasch Defense, Normal Variation (as Tarrasch called it).  In this way, though White's lack of ambition matches Black's, White is still White.  It's a joke, you know?  It makes fun of 1...e6.

It doesn't matter much to White whether Black plays only one of ...d5, ...c5, or both.  White's going to play d4, c4 and meet ...c5 with an immediate e3.  In such a context, 2. a3 is useful, eh?  For one thing, White can exchange on c5 and play b2-b4.

What, if White opened 1. e3 and Black played 1...d5, would anyone here just love to take White's game?  Yet in the line we're discussing, the player with his d-pawn two squares forward has the added benefit (yes, there is some benefit) of having his a-pawn on a3.  I rest my case.


I am not so sure about the QGA lines. So if black just goes e6, d5 and when c4 comes just plays dxc4.

Last week I had a blitz opponent who apparently studied the NIC article as I always get the nimzo against him and the opening went 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.a3. I was a bit annoyed as b6 allows a Pertrosian QID, so I thought I do him one better with 3..b5. Suffice to say the next game went 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.a3, which was even more annoying, so I opted for d5.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #85 - 03/29/07 at 09:30:10
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I would have thought 1 d4 e6/Nf6 2 Nd2 c5 was the most natural move.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #84 - 03/29/07 at 09:17:37
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GMEricPrie wrote on 03/29/07 at 08:51:48:
Just ask your Bc1 what he thinks of all that.


A lost tempo is a lost tempo, but a bad piece gives me something to improve.  Smiley

After all, white usually achieves e3-e4. Besides, I get the impression that you claim nothing special for white after 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5?! or 2.Bf4 - so obviously he should stay put on c1 and not complain!  Wink
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #83 - 03/29/07 at 08:51:48
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Just ask your Bc1 what he thinks of all that.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #82 - 03/28/07 at 18:27:24
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Markovich wrote on 03/28/07 at 15:11:15:
MNb wrote on 03/28/07 at 02:40:05:
Does the website also tell, how White prevents ...e5 after 6...d6 (iso d5) 7.e4 fxe4 8.Nxe4 Nc6 9.Bd3 h6 ?


But White must be White in that line, eh, since Black will have taken two tempi to get his pawn to e5, while white will have spent a tempo uselessly (perhaps) on a3?  I mean, you don't see many Bird's where White goes e2-e3 and soon e3-e4.


Well, we don't see many Bird's period. But iirc Taylor's mainline for white is something like 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.Be2 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 c5 7.Nc3 Nc6 8.e4 etc



By the way, why should 1.d4 d5 2.Nd2!? be inferior to 2.a3,?

As far as I understand, the critical defence is the same i.e. Nf6+Bf5 which is equal in both cases, white can play c4 and recapture with the knight for one thing.

But if black plays something else, then 2.Nd2 is a more useful move than a3 imo, provided white goes for a Colle or Stonewall set-up instead of a QG reversed.

Besides, after 2...c6 he can still play 3.e4 with a mainline, and 2...Bg4 can probably still be met by 3.f3! as in the QG reversed.

and 1.d4 e6 2.Nd2 also looks better than a3, as 2...d5 gives him a choice between 3.e4 or 3.Nf3 or 3.e3 and 2...f5 3.e4 fxe4 4.Nxe4 is a better Staunton than the one you get after 1.d4 f5!

and finally, if you don't like the Indians then 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nd2 will usually result in 2...d5 from black. (At least according to my blitz tests on the net a while ago. I suppose they don't like 2...d6 3.e4 g6 4.Bd3 - though why I dunno)

So, 1.d4+2.Nd2 against almost everything seems a solid opening for lazy white players who like the Colle... Or is there a drawback?
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #81 - 03/28/07 at 15:38:21
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Uberdecker wrote on 02/27/07 at 17:34:55:
Yes, but if Black is willing to play an inferior Benoni (i.e. without c4), he might as well go for 1.d4 c5 immediately.

I've had my fair share of useless confrontations on this thread, and certainly don't want part of any more, but it's a bit odd to call 1. d4 e6 a passive move, no ? And no one has claimed 2. a3 to be unplayable, but the fact that White sometimes moves his a-pawn in the Tarrasch does not constitute sufficient justification (whether or not it comes from elsewhere. Please note this is not an attack on Eric or his creation).  Black can play ...c5 without ...d5 and vice-versa. 


Call it what you like, but in itself, 1...e6  is not exactly an ambitious move.  The point about the Tarrasch is not that a3 is occasionally played there, but that it is entirely useful in that context; so having played 2. a3 and seen 2...d5, White should steer toward the Tarrasch Defense, Normal Variation (as Tarrasch called it).  In this way, though White's lack of ambition matches Black's, White is still White.  It's a joke, you know?  It makes fun of 1...e6.

It doesn't matter much to White whether Black plays only one of ...d5, ...c5, or both.  White's going to play d4, c4 and meet ...c5 with an immediate e3.  In such a context, 2. a3 is useful, eh?  For one thing, White can exchange on c5 and play b2-b4.

What, if White opened 1. e3 and Black played 1...d5, would anyone here just love to take White's game?  Yet in the line we're discussing, the player with his d-pawn two squares forward has the added benefit (yes, there is some benefit) of having his a-pawn on a3.  I rest my case.

  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #80 - 03/28/07 at 15:11:15
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MNb wrote on 03/28/07 at 02:40:05:
Does the website also tell, how White prevents ...e5 after 6...d6 (iso d5) 7.e4 fxe4 8.Nxe4 Nc6 9.Bd3 h6 ?


But White must be White in that line, eh, since Black will have taken two tempi to get his pawn to e5, while white will have spent a tempo uselessly (perhaps) on a3?  I mean, you don't see many Bird's where White goes e2-e3 and soon e3-e4.
  

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