Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What is the real difference between "=" and "+="? (Read 15003 times)
kevinludwig
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 233
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #14 - 06/28/06 at 19:49:37
Post Tools
Just to be clear, I was suggesting going over +/- lines (clear advantage positions), not +- (winning positions). Although looking at winning positions should be even easier.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
smrex13
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 112
Location: Ashland
Joined: 06/03/06
Gender: Male
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #13 - 06/28/06 at 19:31:31
Post Tools
Thanks for all the great replies!  I look forward to sitting down with NCO and going through some of the +- lines of my openings to see if I can understand where the advantage lies.

Thanks!
Scott
  

"Behind every beautiful thing there's been some kind of pain"  - Bob Dylan
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #12 - 06/28/06 at 06:24:17
Post Tools
Kevin, 

Your suggestion to analyse won positions until you've figured out why they're winning is fantastic!  I too encourage being able to describe a position in English, or whichever is your native non-binary language. Roll Eyes

JEH, et al, 

There have been many authors who have argued that we should analyse positions according to static and dynamic considerations.  I used that as a subtext for my discussion of the initiative and endgame values.   

All, thanks for the positive feedback, I always appreciate hearing that some things I write make sense!

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10778
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #11 - 06/28/06 at 03:05:23
Post Tools
One might use a negative definition: += means that Black can afford less suboptimal moves than White. I think it was Lasker, who said, that it needs two mistakes to get a lost position. If that is true, += means that one mistake will cost Black the game, while White still can afford one or even two.
Personally I also use it in the meaning "I would rather have White than Black, but with correct play the game will end in a draw."
What is the difference between ± and +- ? Never really grasped that one. Yes, we always read "White is much better" and "White has a won position". I have always felt, that much better positions should be won. Where am I wrong?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #10 - 06/27/06 at 22:21:47
Post Tools
woofwoof wrote on 06/27/06 at 17:42:29:
The only problem I have is...what to do with posns which are unclear.


PLAY THEM!!   Wink
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kevinludwig
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 233
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #9 - 06/27/06 at 20:28:01
Post Tools
Well...when I was first trying to make sense of these evaluations, I came to a weird realization one day. I was playing through Silman & Donaldson's "Exchange Slav" book, and I came across the following position: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. cxd5 cxd5 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Bf4 Nbd7 7. e3 a6 8. Bd3 b5 9. h3 Bb7 10. 0-0 Be7 11. a4 b4 12. Ne2 0-0 13. a5 +/-. And normally I don't spend much time on weird side-lines, but I couldn't let this one go. I remember thinking, "Wow, white has a clear advantage and I have no idea what it is. And if I got this position in a game, I bet I would lose." And then I realized, who cares about += advantages when you can't even do something with +/- advantages. So starting with this position, I made it my job to learn to recognize +/- positions, and be capable of picking them apart, understanding them, and forming reasonable plans based on my assessment. A good way to do that is go through a book or NCO for whatever opening you play, and only look at the +/- positions, and try to come up with plain english explanations for why one side is better.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #8 - 06/27/06 at 18:36:19
Post Tools
Rowson makes some interesting remarks in his Seven Zebras for Seven Samaurai books in that there are two ways to evaluate a position. There is a static evaluation, the usual one, based on looking at the features of the position in front of us, and deciding which side they favour and by how much. 

But there is also an dynamic evaluation based on which way the game is flowing. Difficult to explain, but E.g. the position my be += but with best play tend towards =, or the position is =, but with best play tends towards += . 

But ultimately there are only three possible evaluations for every position, Won for White, Won for Black, Draw. Computers will tell us the answer someday, when we've used enough of the universe to power them (those Black holes must be there for some reason  Wink)
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
woofwoof
God Member
*****
Offline


chess is like life

Posts: 929
Location: Singapore
Joined: 07/04/05
Gender: Male
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #7 - 06/27/06 at 17:59:19
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 06/27/06 at 17:50:13:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/27/06 at 17:19:44:
The goal and the test of a great player is to take the elements of the position that are advantageous to him and turn the position into a win.


I like this statement a lot. Recognizing and exploiting subtle positional imbalances in equal (or nearly equal) positions is one of the most difficult skills to develop as a chessplayer.


Fischer,Capablanca,Karpov & to some extent Spassky are excellant examples of players being able to squeeze out wins from minute advantages or seemingly equal positions (to most people)
  

"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #6 - 06/27/06 at 17:50:13
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/27/06 at 17:19:44:
The goal and the test of a great player is to take the elements of the position that are advantageous to him and turn the position into a win.


I like this statement a lot.  Recognizing and exploiting subtle positional imbalances in equal (or nearly equal) positions is one of the most difficult skills to develop as a chessplayer.

@kylemeister: yes, the numbers I posted seem a bit off the mark.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #5 - 06/27/06 at 17:42:52
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 06/27/06 at 16:12:12:
There are different interpretations, but very roughly (someone feel free to correct me if this is a bit off although I don't think there is universal agreement anyway) the symbols translate to:

+= or =+  0.25-1.0 pawn advantage (i.e., equivalent value)

+/- or -/+ 1.0-2.0 pawn advantage.

+- or -+ >2.0 pawn advantage.

I've also seen the symbols correlated with winning percentage but don't recall details.

I never found += or =+ very useful in 'understanding' a position without an accompanying verbal explanation/assessment.



I would argue with those numbers.  For instance, I would say that (in general) +1.0 is a clear advantage bordering on a decisive one, not a slight advantage bordering on a clear one.  (Reminds me of a quote from Pal Benko:  "A pawn up for nothing is a winning advantage.")

I recall Fritz using values about like these:  equal is less than a .3 pawn advantage for either side, slight advantage is anything from that up to .7 pawn, clear advantage is from there up to 1.2 pawns, winning/decisive advantage is greater than that.      
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
woofwoof
God Member
*****
Offline


chess is like life

Posts: 929
Location: Singapore
Joined: 07/04/05
Gender: Male
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #4 - 06/27/06 at 17:42:29
Post Tools
Quite frankly I dont really bother abt all these so-called 'slight advantage' or 'minute advantage' conclusions. its very subjective& different people wld hv differing views. I'm with keano & Tal on this. At my miserable level anyway...Id treat it as equal. It might be significant enough to Ims or GMs tho.

There are also many examples of games where somebody has a slight advantage in a certain posn, but that slight advantage isnt even enough to win. Great eg wld be 13th game Fischer-Spassky 1972 endgame posn. Fischer won only due to a blunder, it wld otherwise be drawn.

I'd pay more attention to those -+ or +- situations as more often than not, these are decisive.

The only problem I have is...what to do with posns which are unclear.

I suspect that all this unnecessary confusions & worrying abt such things was started by computer chess.

Later edit: Some good stuff you've written there, Smyslov.
  

"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #3 - 06/27/06 at 17:19:44
Post Tools
I agree very much with Keano.

A beginning chess player learns the moves and a few names of openings.

An intermediate chess player begins to learn the lines.

An advanced chess player starts to look for ways to play lines in his own style.

A player who wants to be truly competitive has opinions on variations based on experience and taste.  Those opinions are stated in terms of +=, =, =+.  There are very few positions that are truly equal that aren't just plain drawn.  One side or another has some sort of extremely small advantage.  

The goal and the test of a great player is to take the elements of the position that are advantageous to him and turn the position into a win.

For everyone below a certain level, the differences between the three symbols can't really be described as computers do, by the amount of tenths of pawns one has.  It may be more useful to ask yourself the following questions:

* Which side has the initiative, and is there any compensation for the side without the initiative?

* Which side would I rather play, and why?

*Which side has the advantage in an endgame, and is this a big enough advantage to worry about losing?

In assessing endgames, I often ask myself whether I would have better chances of winning/drawing with certain pieces/pawns on the board.  

After the game, I go back and try to make formal decisions about where White lost the advantage or Black gave up too much.  (I believe that while chess is theoretically drawn (=), White has a small advantage (+=) from the beginning. Grin)  One of the best things a player can do when analysing his or her own games is to determine where the crucial turning points in the game were, and why.

Also, when annotating games for publication, I simply avoid those symbols and describe the advantages and chances for each side.  Reviewers have often stated that such symbols that you have pointed out plus the unclear signs are often just a way for an annotator to stop his lines of analysis (and is often called lazy for doing so).

I know I went a bit off topic, but I hope this answers your question to some extent.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2928
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #2 - 06/27/06 at 16:41:39
Post Tools
This is very subjective - I think Tal said one time all these slight advantage positions are nonsense, there are only drawn positions and lost positions and the rest is a matter of taste.

I agree with Tal to an extent on this - although there are certainly positions of a very enduring edge that nobody really wants to play against, but certainly should end in a draw.

I saw an interview by Golubev somewhere and he was asked his over-all opinion of the 2.c3 Sicilian because he had just completed a CD on it - he said it leads to "equal positions that are slightly better for White"  Huh  I think the point is taken though - one mans equal is another mans slight advantage and vice versa. What is more important is ones over-all philosophy towards chess...

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: What is the real difference between "=" and "+
Reply #1 - 06/27/06 at 16:12:12
Post Tools
There are different interpretations, but very roughly (someone feel free to correct me if this is a bit off although I don't think there is universal agreement anyway) the symbols translate to:

+= or =+  0.25-1.0 pawn advantage (i.e., equivalent value)

+/- or -/+ 1.0-2.0 pawn advantage.

+- or -+ >2.0 pawn advantage.

I've also seen the symbols correlated with winning percentage but don't recall details.

I never found += or =+ very useful in 'understanding' a position without an accompanying verbal explanation/assessment.

  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
smrex13
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 112
Location: Ashland
Joined: 06/03/06
Gender: Male
What is the real difference between "=" and "+="?
06/27/06 at 15:56:08
Post Tools
Hey everyone,

Perhaps this has been discussed before on this forum, but I can't seem to find it if it has.  There are so many discussions in opening books and websites that throw around the =, +=, =+ symbols as if everyone is supposed to understand exactly what they mean. I understand that white has a slight advantage in a += line, black has a slight advatage in a =+ line, etc., but what exactly do these symbols translate to in practical play.  Even GMs and computers will disagree on certain evaluations, and there can be quite a range within one category like += for example.   

Assuming that a truly = position would yield 50 percent for two GMs of equal playing strength and familiarily with the opening, what kind of an advantage does += give. Is it a slight advantage that can't be converted into a win.  Would white score a few percentage points higher than 50, or are we talking about an advantage at GM level that would give white significantly higher winning chances?   

I just think it's interesting to look through various opening encyclopedia and see thousands of lines narrowed down to three main categories without a thorough discussion of what each of these categories means and how the evaluation is reached.   

Anyway, forgive me if this has been discussed before.  It's just frustrating sometimes to see particular openings dismissed with a symbol when it is not really clear what those symbols really mean. 

Thanks for any thoughts you might have on the matter.

Best,
Scott
  

"Behind every beautiful thing there's been some kind of pain"  - Bob Dylan
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo