OstapBender wrote on 07/12/06 at 06:22:18:


Perhaps.  I am a bit skeptical that Black should play h5 and then allow g4xh5 -- typically this leads to long term problems where White has a target in Black's enduring weakness on the kingside.  I'll see if there's anything specific to offset that here, but as a general rule, this gives White an easy target.

Quote:


Yes...it's hard to say whether White should hold off g4 or not -- it mostly comes down to how one evaluates the resulting endgames.  I'll post my move in the next day -- good luck with the other games!  For me, one is more than enough work...

FYI:   

Ostapbender is now pulling double duty.  He has taken the White side of a French Steinitz over on the French thread.  I'm defending the honor of the French.   

Please come on by and offer your support and analysis as our game progresses!

Cheers! 

OstapBender wrote on 07/11/06 at 00:16:56:


Yes, I think that after the planless 19...Rad8 20.g5 Nf4 21.Be4 Bd5 22.Bxd5 Rxd5 23.Rxd5 Nxd5 24.Rd1 Rd8 25.Nc3 Nxc3 26.Rxd8+ Qxd8 27.Qxc3 we reach a position only White could win.  I think that  17...Be6 is relatively better.  I'm not sure that this is any reason to turn away from 16...h6:

17.g4 is definitely the critical continuation.  The more that I look at it, though, the less that I am convinced that White can achieve any advantage.  In the lines you give above, a couple of (not at all comprehensive) remarks about the position after 17...hxg4 18.fxg4 Qg3 19.h5:

19... e5 20.Rg1 exd4 21.Rxg3 Ne3 22.Re1 Nxg4 23.hxg6 fxg6 24.Nc5 Rf2 25.Be2 Ne5 26.Nd3 Nxd3+ 27.Bxd3 is your main line and does seem += to me.

19... Qe3+ 20.Kb1 (20.Qxe3 Nxe3 21.Re1 Nxf1 22.Rhxf1 Bxg4 23.hxg6 fxg6 24.Rg1 Bf5 25.Rxe7 Rf7 does look equal) 20...Qxd4 and I think Black may be OK, though White may be a bit better.  White's advantage seems...small.

I'll give these lines another run through, since I think some minor modification of them will be the game continuation, but before committing, I'll investigate the deviations at move 16 and 17.

16...h5 seems like a pretty big concession to me.  It seems to encourage White to attack on the light squares, possibly beginning with 17.Bd3 - e4 as was suggested earlier.  The game you mentioned earlier shows that White is in no rush to play g4 against 16...h5.  Instead, White played 17.Rd2 which does seem to miss the point a bit.   

I know you entered the position considering 17.g4 to be a major improvement, and you may be right.  But I don't see why you have to race to make such a move.

Scholar wrote on 07/11/06 at 07:12:04:

This seems like asking for trouble, but maybe I'm overestimating 17.g4.

You make some good points about 16.c4.  I don't think I spent enough time considering it, since I was so strongly inclined towards 16.h4 and mainly focused on making sure it didn't suffer from any major defects.

Regarding 16...Nf4, I only took a cursory look.  I thought the move needed to be at least considered since it has some positive features.  One thing I didn't like about this move is that it doesn't seem to go well with a later ...Bf5 (which is where I'd want to put the bishop, at least to induce g2-g4) since then knight could then be pushed back with g3 (since ...Nh5 answered by g4 would drop a piece).  I didn't calculate any variations though.

Smyslov_Fan is probably right that this will be a difficult game for White to win, but I still think there may be winning chances in some lines and that there is still a bit of work to do for Black to equalize.  

There are some interesting choices ahead for both of us!

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/11/06 at 02:29:51:

I think 16...Qg3 is a serious possibility, but probably not any stronger than 16...Bf5.

Quote:

Huh?  

Other moves I looked at briefly were 16...e5 (17.Qc5 looks like a reasonable answer) and 16...Nf4 (17.Qf2 is one possible reply).

I will go with 16.h4

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.f3 Bg7 7.Be3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4
http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1b2rk1/p1q1pp1p/2p3p1/3n...

Looking at White's plausible responses to 16.h4, 16...Bf5 is looking best so far and I take this to be the main line until I see something that looks more promising for Black.  I think that 17. g4 e5 18. Qc5 Be6 19. Bd3 looks promising (at least comfortable/reasonable) for White at first glance.

I thought that 16...h5 might be a good alternative based on the following game found in the IECG database:

[Event "SH.2005.0.00040"]
[Site "Chessfriend.com"]
[Date "2005.09.07"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Daurelle, Herve"]
[Black "Koch, Christian"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2272"]
[BlackElo "2239"]
[PlyCount "64"]
[EventDate "2005.09.07"]
[EventType "tourn (corr)"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Bxd4 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16. h4 h5 17. Rd2 Rd8 18. c4 e5 19. Qc5 Nb6 20. Rxd8+ Qxd8 21. Nc3 Qf8 22. Ne4 Qxc5 23. Nxc5 Nd7 24. Nxd7 Bxd7 25. Bd3 Kf8 26. Re1 Re8 27. c5 Bf5 28. Ba6 f6 29. Rd1 e4 30. Rd6 exf3 31. gxf3 Re6 32. Rd8+ Re8 1/2-1/2

I think that 17.g4 (instead of 17.Rd2) looks like a pretty logical attempt for White to gain an advantage.  Here are some sample continuations/analysis.  It's far from exhaustive, but I'm inclined to think that White's chances look better after 16...h5 17.g4 than after 16...Bf5 17.g4.  The move 16...h5 seems to help rather than hinder White's normal game plan.

17.g4 hxg4 18.fxg4 [18.h5 looks natural here, but this might just be faulty pattern recognition on my part.  In any event, I couldn't get this move to work any better than the simple recapture.] 18...Qg3 19.h5 e5 [19...Bxg4 20.Rg1; 19...g5 20.h6; 19...Qe3+ 20.Kb1 (20.Qxe3 is also possible, but it may be a bit drawish: 20...Nxe3 21.Re1 Nxf1 22.Rhxf1 Bxg4 23.hxg6 fxg6 24.Rg1 Bf5 25.Rxe7) 20...e5 21.Qc4 Nf4 (better than alternatives I think, but this may be debatable) 22.hxg6 Bxg4 23.gxf7+ Rxf7 24.Qxc6 looks winning] 20.Rg1 [20.Qd2 is another possibility to explore] 20...exd4 [20...Ne3 21.Rxg3 exd4 transposes.] 21.Rxg3 Ne3 22.Re1 Nxg4 [22...Nxf1 23.Rxf1 also looks better for White, but maybe this is an improvement] 23.hxg6 fxg6 24.Nc5 Rf2 25.Be2 Ne5 [25...Bf5 26.Rxg4 Rxe2 27.Rxg6+ Bxg6 28.Rxe2 and here I have to prefer White.  White's knight is the better minor piece, Black's pawns are weaker, and his king is more exposed.  More analysis needed, but White's winning chances look pretty good to me.  Again, this may be debatable.] 26.Nd3 Nxd3+ 27.Bxd3 and White recovers the pawn with a better position. (debatable? I suppose)

I'm happy to here about any holes or improvements.

I'm going to take a look at 16...Qg3 next, and then a deeper look at 16...Bf5.  Anyone want to suggest other important replies to 16.h4?  If I can't find any obvious flaws with 16.h4, then this is what I'll probably play.