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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Hard enough to be GM as it is thanks Mark... (Read 21730 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Hard enough to be GM as it is thanks Mark...
Reply #7 - 07/04/06 at 08:21:11
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There is one consideration that makes the title of GM special, even for chess players who have never seen a tournament, much less played in one.

The title, GM, makes selling books so much easier.  So the current crop of players have strong financial incentives to make getting the title easier.  But a GM is not a Ph.D.  A professional chess player who puts in his time and writes a dissertation is just a professional chess player and perhaps an author.  (I think it was Steinbeck who said "A person who writes a book has written a book.  A person who writes two books is an author.") 

The title is separate from the quality of the analysis, especially in the current age of computer analysis.  Even now, two of the best chess authors of our time are "only" International Masters:  John Watson and Mark Dvoretsky.

The title of Grandmaster should be reserved for the very best competitors regardless of their literary talents.  Nietzsche (the avatar, not the dead philosopher, or God) stated that the title should denote a world champion candidate level of player.  Realistically, that would limit the title to about five players at any given time.   

That's going a bit too far in my opinion.  But the successful candidate for GM should be a household name among avid chess fans.  The 2600 elo barrier accomplishes that.  It will need to be revised in the future, but it's a great start.
  
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Re: Hard enough to be GM as it is thanks Mark...
Reply #6 - 07/04/06 at 07:59:41
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Keano wrote on 07/04/06 at 07:37:05:

Smyslov_fan - there is a fatal flaw in your argument - what about all the GM's already would you strip them of their title?? If not then the system is a mockery because 95% of GM´s would not be able to get a GM title on the basis of Mark Crowther´s suggestion  Smiley


First of all, I love disagreement.  It is by discussing our ideas that we refine our thinking and may even approach something resembling a good idea.

I don't see any flaw at all in that part of my argument, Keano.  What I suggest is that we don't penalise anyone currently in the system by making any change to their expectations.  The common term for this is "grandfathering" them in.   

I don't propose stripping any titles from anyone.  I propose fixing a system that is broken but avoiding punishing those who are already in that system.

Yes, I do realise that for a generation or so there will be two tiers of GMs (old system and new system).  I don't see that as a flaw, or even a problem.  The current players who qualify for the "new system" GM will be able to receive recognition for their achievement twice over.  There would have to be some sort of transition period regardless of any changes made.

Your suggestion that there is already a title for the best players, "Super GMs is arbitrary, unofficial, and temporary.  For a while, Nigel Short and Jon Speelman were "Super" GMs.  Now, they're names on ratings lists without any special mention of their tremendous accomplishments.  I'm suggesting that the title of Grandmaster, being a lifetime award, should be one given out very sparingly.   
  
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Re: Hard enough to be GM as it is thanks Mark...
Reply #5 - 07/04/06 at 07:37:05
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I have to disagree completely with Smyslov_fan and Nietsche - the point is that the title IS exceptionally hard to get - dont try telling me that its easy! And the title of GM still means something today - it is recognition that you are at the top level of your profession. Now the fact that there are more GM's these days than in the days of Max Euwe is neither here nor there - we are in a different era, but to say that to get to be a GM these days we should have to play at the level of Anand or Topalov Kramnik is just madness - these are the very top players in the world - maybe what you are looking for is another title? Oh wait we already have it "Super GM". Dont make the rest of us have to be super GM´s too  Huh

Smyslov_fan - there is a fatal flaw in your argument - what about all the GM's already would you strip them of their title?? If not then the system is a mockery because 95% of GM´s would not be able to get a GM title on the basis of Mark Crowther´s suggestion  Smiley
  
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Re: Hard enough to be GM as it is thanks Mark...
Reply #4 - 07/04/06 at 01:19:11
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I'd like to see tougher standards for becoming a GM.  Max Euwe, when he was president of FIDE, (boy it's been a long time since we had a great president of FIDE) complained that he once knew every Grandmaster in the world.  But by the time he ended his presidency, he didn't even know the names of many grandmasters.   

If the most avid chess fans and players can't even name the GMs, then maybe there are some who shouldn't be grandmasters at all.  After all, we are talking about a group of such rare skill as to be famous around the world.  There have been many IMs who could have been, or might have been GMs, and many current IMs/GMs who are better than some of the famous GMs of the past.

We should remember that the title of Grandmaster was initially bestowed by upon the very best players in the world and that mark should remain.  Realistically, the process of making the title rare again would be fairly simple to do:  All current FIDE members would be eligible to become a GM by the current system.  After a certain date (say, 1/1/07), then make the minimum rating 2600.  

The problem isn't that players "deserve" to be grandmasters.  The problem is that the title itself is so exceptional that only the very most exceptional players in the world should earn it.  After all, this is a life title.  JEH's humorous idea of adding new titles has been bandied about.  His concept is a bit wrong though.  Rather than delineate types of Grandmaster, there should be some sort of special intermediate title between IM and GM (senior IM, Super IM).  Either that or perhaps elevate the status of IM just as GM should be elevated and create more FMs.  Fide Master is quite an achievement by itself.
  
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Re: Hard enough to be GM as it is thanks Mark...
Reply #3 - 07/04/06 at 00:09:03
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Actually, I'd have to agree with Mark on this one.
I think the title of Grandmaster really ought to be harder than it is to achieve.
Obviously, its still hard now... but surely we can agree that 2550 doesn't put you in the same class as Alekhine, Capablanca, etc.
The title was originally meant to denote the very top of the chess world.  A mere handful of players who were Champion-class.

I've often felt the title was becoming more and more diluted as the rating continue to inflate.

I think maybe the tile should be based on world ranking instead.
Why not give the title only to those players who achieve top 50 status (or top 100)?
That way if everyone in the top 50 becomes 2800, you will need to work that much harder.  The bar would automatically raise whenever ratings rose (as they are wont to do).

Actually, I think it would make a lot of sense to just create an official title that means "top 10 player".  Perhaps an official "Super-GM", although that name still sounds a bit silly to me. Perhaps, "World Class" or "WC"...although this might confuse people who think it means World Champion.  But I think we can clear that up.   

Basically, I don't think we need 200 GMs in the world with more and more coming every month.
It is hard now, but not nearly as hard as it was 50 years ago or even 25 years ago.

And isn't it odd that there can be nearly 300 elo points between the very top GMs and garden variety GMs and yet both have the same title??  No other title has such a huge range. 

In keeping with the original intent of the title "Grandmaster", I feel that only players who are viable candidates to the World Championship ought to get the title.   But I'd settle at least for top 50 at this point and perhaps a seperate class for top 10.

What do you all think? 
Insane?  Daft?   Undecided
  

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Re: Hard enough to be GM as it is thanks Mark...
Reply #2 - 07/03/06 at 21:10:55
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Cheesy
Tom
  
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Re: Hard enough to be GM as it is thanks Mark...
Reply #1 - 07/03/06 at 18:37:03
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Maybe just have new titles...

2600 Super GM   
2700 Super Duper GM 
2800 Super Diddly Uper GM
2900 Living Computer
3000 God

Wink
  

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Hard enough to be GM as it is thanks Mark...
07/03/06 at 16:38:21
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Quote:
It is surely well beyond the time to change the mark at which a GM norm is set (2600) which is a performance which clearly wouldn't get you anywhere near the top 100 (when it was originally set it was a performance of Candidates class which is now probably over 2700).


(This quote from Mark Crowther, The Week in Chess)

Now, forgive me for a bit of a rant but it is hard enough to get a 2600 performance as it is, and playing the required number of GM´s, federations etc. I know a very promising 2500 player who has been trying for years to get even one GM norm! Now, hold on a minute, Mark Crowther wants us to have to get a 2700 performance  Undecided

No sorry Mark - why dont you just stitch the whole thing up while your at it  Angry
  
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