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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Starting out 1.e4! (Read 39642 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #37 - 09/14/06 at 21:51:12
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Markovich,

I wonder if some of your Exchange Slav games are stored on a website/server etc.; I might be interested in taking a look at them.  (If that's something you would rather not reveal, I understand.)  I recall when the Exchange was considered (e.g. by ECO) to lead to some advantage for White, basically before that ...Rc8 move came along (after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. cd cd 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bf4 Bf5 7. e3 e6 8. Bb5 Nd7 9. Qa4) and probably before 6...a6 was invented/respected.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #36 - 09/14/06 at 19:37:08
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QUOTE: "The Petroff, 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6, is a boring, turgid opening line used at the highest level to neutralize the advantage of the first move. Unfortunately, you will also occasionally meet it in your games, as some ordinary players like to copy the play of the great masters, even at the cost of enjoying their chess." - McDonald


Does he really say this?  Apalling.   

In the first place, he's writing for players at a relatively low level.  There, the Petroff makes perfect sense as a winning try.  Good grief, how bad, or boring for that matter, can it be to play Pawn to King's Fourth and then put the King's Knight on King Bishop Three??

In the second place, I'm not at all sure that the Petroff can't be played in a somewhat dynamic spirit even at higher levels.  Frank Marshall himself played it all the time, for crying out loud.  Now THERE is a player who produced some REALLY "boring and turgid" chess!

In the third place, it's a game of chess, you know?  First White plays a move and then Black does, and eventually either someone wins or it's a draw.   Between here and there is nothing but struggle, and it really is useless to contemplate the supposedly contemptible character of one's opponent for having chosen such a boring, or speculative, or untheoretical, or whatever, way of playing his game.

I like to attack as much the next person, more even, but I also play the Exchange Slav with Nf3.  Now there is some chess that MacDonald would undoubtedly call "boring and turgid," except that I am not bored but rather amused by the struggle to out-technique my opponent in a position that he has zero chances of winning, and that this system happens to produce rather good results.  TO SCORE is, after all, the object of this game.  I hope MacDonald won't blame me for not producing sufficiently entertaining score sheets along the way. (All right, I admit my score sheets are entertainiing for my frequent errors, but that's another subject.)
 

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ps - I, personally, think the French is actually less "manly"


I can't even begin to imagine what you mean by that, and I'm surprised you would say it after the other things you said.  The French is a very tough defense.  What the heck is "unmanly" about it?
  

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Keano
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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #35 - 09/13/06 at 14:09:09
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well sadly I have had a look at this book in a bookstall and I am afraid I have to agree with the last review. I had great hopes for it when I heard of the content, but it seems it is another one of these "FOR Dummy" books, or a bit like "An Idiots guide to 1.e4, how to look like you know something about whats going on". For me it is just that there are too many of these type of books now, and too many people willing to waste money on them. Then again if there is a market for it I suppose I have to put up with it  Sad
  
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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #34 - 09/04/06 at 04:40:28
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In the Petroff we get two games to follow. In game 8 white is awarded 5 exclamation points, even for 5.Nc3. In game 8 we learn that 7.Bf4 is the most common move, but 7.Be3 is the move in game 8 and it's 7. Bg5 in game 9 with the comment "A bolder square than e3 - and why not?" In game 8 we get 10...0-0? "A classic example of castling into an attack. More solid was 10...Bf6." Also in the Scotch section we get two different moves for white early on. 

The accelerated dragon is included in the notes to game 22. It is fantastic that McDonald writes off a major variation in a third of a page, including a line where black plays Ng8-g4 in one move.

In the Sveshnikov, McDonald only covers 11...0-0 12.Nc2 Bg5, 11...Bb7 and 11...Rb8 12.Nc2 Bg5. I've played 11...Ne7 and 11...0-0 12.Nc2 Rb8 myself. Two good lines not included here. 11...Ne7 gives different types of positions than the other lines as black often play d5 soon. In the 11...0-0, 12...Rb8 line, black is much prepared for the a4 advance, which makes the line quite different to the 11...0-0 12...Bg5 line and the 11...Rb8 and 12...Bg5 line.

He calls 6...Be7 more or less forced in the exd6 exchange Alekhine, only looking at 6...g6 as the other try. 6...Nc6 is very much playable. I've used it myself several times.

The writing style is similar to childrens books, aged 4-10. Not to my liking at all.

The d4 book by Cox is a serious try to form the basis of a repertoire. The e4 book is just games collected with annoying annotations. This is the first time since the old Soltis books I've picked up an opening book and felt that I could have done a better job myself without too much effort.
  

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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #33 - 09/04/06 at 01:15:34
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I can't remember when I last saw such superficial material in an opening book.


Care to provide an example or two?

I bought the book today and spent a few hours glancing through it.  It strikes me as a book that really should be judged by it's title: "Starting Out ...", not "Mastering the ..." or "The Complete ...."  McDonald is quite explicit in the introductory text about how the book is for "the improving player" - not a GM or near GM.  He spends a LOT of time on the essential ideas that animate each Black defense and then provides his suggested replies - always explaining WHY he recommends what he recommends and providing the mainline continuations.  If Black leaves the main lines, you may or may not get MacDonald's analysis, but he does such a good job explaining WHY Black responds as he does in the line, as well as White's overall strategy, that White is left with some pretty good clues about how to handle departures.

I'm sure that strong players will want to supplement each and every one of these chapters with specialized texts or heavy database work at some point - as will club players like me who find regular opponents routinely playing the same replies - but that's not the end of the world.  Speaking as someone who's always wanted to play mainline Sicilians, for instance, but didn't know where to begin to put together an UNDERSTANDABLE repertoire, this book is wonderful!  There's a lot to be said for a solid GM who really understands these lines and can communicate that understanding with all the fundamentals a club guy like me needs to get STARTED (again, that title).  Sure, it's only 1.e4 "101,"
but I'm a big opening books guy and haven't run into very many if any books that were this good for my purposes.  The reperoire is very active and seems very credible.  I look forward to reading it in depth.
  
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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #32 - 08/19/06 at 03:43:07
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I'm rather disappointed by this book.   Even in the context of it being in the "Starting Out" series, it seems rather superficial.   Particularly compared to John Cox's companion 1.d4 volume.   There have been a number of good or very good books in the SO series (including McDonald's one on the Dutch) but I can't say this is one of them.   Anyone disagree?
  

We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art. &&~ Henry James
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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #31 - 08/10/06 at 03:30:07
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The Petrov is known as De Russische Verdediging in Dutch. Still its reputation is not better at all in The Netherlands.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #30 - 08/09/06 at 23:12:30
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IMJohnCox wrote on 08/03/06 at 12:16:31:
>Amateur opinion of opening systems is so heavily influenced by what's going on a the top.

But isn't that's what is a bit surprising about the Petroff; the fact that it's going on at the top and not anywhere else? I realise you're making a slightly different point; that people think it's drawish because it produces a lot of draws at the top level.



Amateurs "know" that the Petrov/Petroff Defense is a dull draw.  They glance at a game played by two grandmasters. At the top are the words "Petrov Defense" and at the bottom is the word (or symbol) "draw", and the amateur moves on to find games that were interesting wins.

If we all agreed to start calling the opening "The Russian Defense" then maybe amateurs would, accidentally, go over a game or two and find it interesting.  After all, we all know the Russians play dynamic chess.

While changing names seems silly, it really goes to the heart of the problem.  The reputation of the Petrov is that it's drawish,  the reality is that it may lead to draws, but only if both sides play equally well.  I think it was John Nunn who pointed out how ridiculous it is to claim a position is drawish after only two moves.  I'm sure he wasn't the first!

One look at the position after move 22 of the recent Kramnik-Leko game (Dortmond, 2006) will show that a seemingly boring position can be very rich in ideas.  I know that wasn't a Petrov, but show the position to most masters and I suspect they would say it's drawish!
  
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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #29 - 08/09/06 at 20:21:46
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FightingDragon wrote on 08/01/06 at 08:48:23:
Does anyone have the book?
Sounds pretty good, though it has to be superficial with just 193 pages and recommending the open Sicilian.
How is the Sicilian section? This is especially important for me, as I face the Sicilian in my games with white in about 70% of all games!
About 50% of the variations correspond with my current repertoire, so do you think it is worth getting for me (I'm slightly above 2300) ? So perhaps it could also be helpful if I just get some new ideas in the variations I am already playing.
Any help appreciated!  Smiley



FightingDragon: My guess is that a 2300 player will be very disappointed in this book. I can't remember when I last saw such superficial material in an opening book. One has to go back to Soltis' "Beating..." series, I guess.

Many of the lines suggested in this book are interesting. They are just not backed up at all.
  

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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #28 - 08/03/06 at 21:59:00
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I agree there's no need for it to be dull, although it is one of those openings (as is the QGA; maybe that's the reason) where Black risks White playing an endgame line which is both fairly quiet AND reasonably promising for White.


In a must win situation wouldn't you really need a backup to the Petroff due to this variation, assuming your opponent is even reasonably competent in the endgame?
  
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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #27 - 08/03/06 at 15:53:47
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Speaking of Yusupov, I have two Informant monographs covering the Petroff (C42 and C43) that he did a few years before his aforementioned big book.  (Remember Informant monographs?  I wish they would start publishing those again.  I also miss the old-style ECOs, written by various GM specialists ...)

I also recall a Petroff book in the "The Complete (blank)" series; I believe it was by Forintos and Haag (that's a Hungarian GM and IM).
  
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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #26 - 08/03/06 at 12:16:31
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>Amateur opinion of opening systems is so heavily influenced by what's going on a the top.

But isn't that's what is a bit surprising about the Petroff; the fact that it's going on at the top and not anywhere else? I realise you're making a slightly different point; that people think it's drawish because it produces a lot of draws at the top level.
  
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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #25 - 08/03/06 at 12:12:50
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I dont know about all this, personally I find the Petroff quite an Interesting opening to play against when I am White - the main lines now have a lot of theory but there are still lots of unexplored side-paths. I like to play down the main-line with 3.Nxe5 (I used to play 3.d4)  and I find it is an interesting battle for White to hold on to his slight initiative.

In general it is not very constructive when people start calling openings "boring" - there are some boring positions in all openings, but these can easily be avoided.
  
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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #24 - 08/03/06 at 12:08:16
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Quote:
QUOTE: "I think Raetsky/Chetverik did a Petroff one recently as well, maybe?"

Yes, their book was published by Everyman in March of 2005.
There was also the excellent "Beating the Petroff" by Kotronias and Tzermiadianos published by Batsford (also in March last year!).  I think this is the best of the recent bunch.
Janjgava published one with Gambit back in 2001 which ought to be better known.
But, of course, all of them are inferior to...

Yusupov's magnificent book "The Petroff Defense" published by Ohms in 1999.  Its just so lovely. (hint: You can also use it to improve your biceps by curling it.)

Its a but funny that no one has dared to put out a "Starting Out" or "Chess Explained" book on the Petroff.  Consequently, a lot of amateur e4 players know very little about this defense; which I think actually helps give the Black players a pretty decent "home field" advantage at that level of play. But, of course, many club players cannot get past its dull reputation and avoid playing it for fear of being called a plotz (or worse).

Nietzsche

ps - Karpov's boldly titled "Winning with the Petroff" was published way back in 1993.  But who knows who wrote that one....




I have Yusupov's book in German and it is indeed excellent.  It is no longer up-to-date, however.   

I agree that the Petroff should be seen much more at the club level.  I see no reason why it can't be played for a win.  After all, you see a lot of amateurs playing the QGD for a win, and it works, because the opposition is so uneven.  So why not Petroff's?

Amateur opinion of opening systems is so heavily influenced by what's going on a the top.   But up to, say, 2300 or so, you can play any d--n thing you want, provided that it is not unsound, and expect to win if you're the stronger player.

It was some time ago, true enough, but Marshall played it for a win.
  

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Re: Starting out 1.e4!
Reply #23 - 08/03/06 at 12:05:49
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QUOTE: "The Petroff, 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nf6, is a boring, turgid opening line used at the highest level to neutralize the advantage of the first move. Unfortunately, you will also occasionally meet it in your games, as some ordinary players like to copy the play of the great masters, even at the cost of enjoying their chess." - McDonald

I honestly think the 'urban legend' that all Petroff players are merely seeking a draw (at move 2) is pertuated by white players who are frustrated at not finding a clear edge against this solid defense.


I prefer Bronstein's description...

Quote:
Petroff's Defence, or the Russian Game, is an extremely peace-loving opening.
By choosing a symmetrical move, Black is as much as saying: whatever you do, I'll follow you; I'm a meek and mild-tempered fellow.
If White responds to Black's initiative, then the moves flow like water off a duck's back – a dozen exchanges, and the clocks are stopped. Draw.
But White has only to show a touch of arrogance and obstinacy, and go in for an open fight, when Black immediately replies blow for blow, and then for a long time it is difficult to tell who is attacking and who is defending.
But that rarely happens.
More often White complies; one exchange, then another – and then the judge rushes to the table.


Smiley
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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