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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1...d5 recommended for beginners? (Read 30942 times)
TopNotch
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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #22 - 10/05/06 at 23:56:07
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Keano wrote on 10/05/06 at 21:21:11:
Smyslov_Fan - fear not - QGD is dynamic enough to win games as Black, Capablanca did it, Geller did it, Nigel Short does it quite often. In short, the idea of QGD as just playing for a draw is old-fashioned, it underwent a Renaissance around about the time Geller switched from KID to QGD and then won the Soviet Championship with it, winning several impressive games as Black. 
For beginners, of course there is even more chance to win with it, but in my opinion even up to GM level Black can win with good understanding of the dynamics.


I overheard Short saying that he regretted never learning the KID as it's so dynamic and offers so many winning chances, but then again he said playing The Two Knight's defence with Black is taking your life in your hands, so who knows.

Personally I consider a good repertoire to consists of both classical and hyper-modern openings, in this way you are better equipped to respond to any type of tournament situation. If that is too much work, you should at least have an understanding of how to play both types of game. Someone mentioned Davies play 1.e4 e5 book, which ostensibly can be considered a classical repertoire, nevertheless it is striking how often the Keres line he recommends against the ruy transposes to positions akin to the Modern Benoni.

The first strategical concept that anyone taking up the QGD as black must learn to cope with is the exchange variation with its primary strategical idea being the minority attack. Here I can heartily recommend retired GM Mathew Sadler's excellent book Queen's Gambit Declined, wherein he outlines Black's various strategies in fighting against the minority attack.      

Last but not least, what does  TMB mean ?

Tops Smiley
« Last Edit: 10/06/06 at 23:45:00 by TopNotch »  

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Keano
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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #21 - 10/05/06 at 21:21:11
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Smyslov_Fan - fear not - QGD is dynamic enough to win games as Black, Capablanca did it, Geller did it, Nigel Short does it quite often. In short, the idea of QGD as just playing for a draw is old-fashioned, it underwent a Renaissance around about the time Geller switched from KID to QGD and then won the Soviet Championship with it, winning several impressive games as Black. 
For beginners, of course there is even more chance to win with it, but in my opinion even up to GM level Black can win with good understanding of the dynamics.
  
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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #20 - 10/05/06 at 06:33:19
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/05/06 at 03:57:23:
I have played the minority attack against masters who later said they didn't understand why they lost!  (Ok, there was only one master who admitted to not knowing what was going on, but others have lost without appearing to understand the nature of the attack.)

I recommend 1...d5 to my students, but I don't recommend the Slav (my favorite opening) for several reasons.  The most obvious is that I don't want to create clones, I want to create players who think for themselves.   I often recommend the Tarrasch, the QGA, the Chigorin, and sometimes the Classical TMB.  

I agree that players should learn the classics first.  But in the case of the QGD, the Orthodox variation of the QGD gives white winning chances while only providing Black with drawing chances.  Even a beginner deserves an opening that is dynamic enough to win as Black.

I think that there are two points to be taken into account with this statement. Firstly what exactly would constitute a beginner. If a player would be a beginner imo I wouldnt recommend him any opening or if pressed the QGA (for the open play). Secondly I dont quite agree on the characterisation of the QGD. Very much will depend on the actual use of the QGD by the player. If he analyses his games a lot and compares his play with ideas in literature, then your observation is incorrect. However if he just sticks to the book lines he learnt in the beginning it will prolly become a "lazy" opening.
  

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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #19 - 10/05/06 at 05:42:02
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Smyslov Fan,

That was precisely my concern about the QGD - its lack of winning chances for Black.  Clearly, the TMB offers more dynamic possibilities, but do you feel that the other lines available to white (Alatortsev, Bf4, Bxf6) give Black enough?  I like the TMB, but in my limited experience with the QGD  white seems to avoid it.  Obviously, at club level anything is playable, but as one gets stronger will he become frustrated with these QGD lines?   

Thanks for your thoughts,
Scott
  

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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #18 - 10/05/06 at 03:57:23
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I have played the minority attack against masters who later said they didn't understand why they lost!  (Ok, there was only one master who admitted to not knowing what was going on, but others have lost without appearing to understand the nature of the attack.)

I recommend 1...d5 to my students, but I don't recommend the Slav (my favorite opening) for several reasons.  The most obvious is that I don't want to create clones, I want to create players who think for themselves.   I often recommend the Tarrasch, the QGA, the Chigorin, and sometimes the Classical TMB.   

I agree that players should learn the classics first.  But in the case of the QGD, the Orthodox variation of the QGD gives white winning chances while only providing Black with drawing chances.  Even a beginner deserves an opening that is dynamic enough to win as Black.
  
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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #17 - 10/04/06 at 15:07:18
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Exactly right! Start with classical chess, later players can learn hypermodern strategy, Gruenfelds and Kings Indians but in my opinion a player learning the game should start with a sound classical basis. It amazes me to see young kids these days being trained in to play the Gruenfeld and whatnot. Then they wonder why they lost - first master the classical basics of chess (which is hard enough!) and QGD is an excellent starting point for this. 
Also (shock/horror) there will still be plenty of tactics to worry about in the games.
  
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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #16 - 10/04/06 at 08:39:31
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I just wanted to chime in ....

I think 1...d5 is the perfect start for beginners.  Its just so logical and clear.   
Push a center pawn, fight for control of the key central squares, open lines for your pieces, etc.
White attacks 2.c4 and Black defends his center with 2...e6.  Then the knights come out, then the bishop is developed before playing e3 so its not stuck behind the pawn chain, etc, etc.

The QGD is just so perfect from a classical standpoint that I cannot help but think its the easiest to understand for beginners.
Direct central play with standard piece development...no problem.
You also have all those great old games from Steintiz, Lasker, Capa, etc.  The World Championships....the legacy, the rich chess history.

I can still remember the "magic" of Lasker's ...Ne4.  The cunning of that little ...h6 nuance.   
Do you remember the first time you really understood why the minority attack made sense?  I was happy the whole day.

The QGD also sets up the Tarrasch beautifully.   
People still really appreciate Tarrasch's bold 3...c5!?  What a great idea that was back in the 19th century. 
Also, I still think Rubinstein's system (with g3, Na4, etc.) is fantastic reply to Tarrasch and was amazingly creative.
Imagine allowing black to un-isolate the pawn and block your bishop on g2, so you can set up a dark-square bind!   
That was sheer genius and a perfect example of the evolution of opening ideas.

As Sadler said, the QGD really serves as a foundation for almost all of Black's defenses to 1.d4.
Kasparov described it as 'the cornerstone'.

The Tarrasch, the Nimzo, the Slav, Queens Indian, etc.  all make more sense once you've understood why Black players got away from the clear-cut development of the QGD.  Each of the first 7-8 moves can make sense for people who have just learned how to move the pieces and yet the opening is still good enough to be played at the highest levels of chess even today.  What more could you want?

Nietzsche

ps - I tend to stay far, far away from the Catalan when teaching beginners.  It just gets so complicated strategically that I feel like I have to explain everything.  Has anyone else had this experience?    

  

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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #15 - 09/08/06 at 05:29:07
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The main drawback for using the Benkö as a beginner is that you don't learn pawn play. It's c5, d6, e7, f7, g6, h7 in game after game. The pawns sit there from opening to late in the ending. I played the stonewall dutch in my youth and it has the same drawback. (It's even worse!) Also, the strategy as black is the same in game after game. Playing the QGD or Tarrasch is a much better choice in my opinion. There you would learn pawn play, piece play, tactics and dynamic chess in general faster. MNb is not the only player who becomes bored of the Benkö. I've seen many examples of it.

We've had this discussion before and MNb's point about the fact that few players choose to play d5 is clearly on the positive side for choosing the Benkö. For instance, the Anti-Benoni lines of the English should be helpful for the beginner.

Also, the only time I feel chess improvement is due to opening choices is when going from lesser lines to main lines.
  

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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #14 - 09/08/06 at 04:13:43
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When anyone new to chess begins to formulate a defense to 1)d4 I always strongly suggest they make the QGD their defense of choice. I belive someone else explained the benifits of learning this opening defense in the above replies.....I could not agree more!
  
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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #13 - 07/31/06 at 02:15:15
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That's very interesting MNb.  I think Simon Webb would have agreed that one can definitely improve one's results by choosing the right opening variation.  Mainly choosing an opening that suits one's style and level of development.  I do think in our era it is more difficult to recommend almost any opening as a simple solution.  For example in the Benko, I don't think Black can just load up on the queenside in the variations 4.cxb5 a6 5.f3 and 4.cxb5 a6 5.b6.  Variations that have much more theory than 20 years ago.   

So this post isn't completely off topic, I think 1..d5 is a good choice for beginners.    Roll Eyes
  
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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #12 - 07/31/06 at 01:58:36
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/30/06 at 04:18:34:
Frendo, 

"The average club player" is several notches (about 700 rating points) above a true beginner.  For such a player, let's say around 1500 elo (which used to be the true mean but has drifted upward by nearly 400 points), then yes, let that player experiment with various openings.  That player has already found out a great deal about himself or herself and his/her relationship with chess.  The Benko is just fine for such a player, but I wouldn't expect such a player to rise dramatically just because of learning one opening variation.  Such a player would learn far more just from having a friend such as Bent Larsen!

Enviously, 

SF


From 1982 until 1987 the Benkö helped me to rise from ELO 1300 to 1800. As I wrote before, it helped me to formulate a plan and execute it (big deal, it is so stereotypical). In 1984 a clubmate asked me what to do against 1.d4 (he already, unlike me, had chosen the French). On my advice he also chose the Benkö and guess what happened? Also 100 point up each year. Oh, and we did not rely on endgame theory at all (much too far away at move 10). The only thing we knew was putting our heavy artillery on the open queenside files and try to find good squares for the light pieces. Our dream was to place a knight on d3.
Now I will not say, that this happened only thanks to the Benkö, but obviously it did not hurt either.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #11 - 07/30/06 at 14:06:51
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Smyslov_Fan,

Actually the end of my post was trying to say that the Benko is probably good for some club players but probably not for a beginner.  However your statement said it wasn't good for young chessplayers which need qualification.  There are a lot of "young chessplayers" that are already average players or better.  With all the resources available today, many students are quite good within only a year of play and study.  You also stated "is difficult to play" without experience.  That is probably meant for the real beginners as well, since we agree that it can be good for some average players (Has the mean really drifted to almost 1900?).  I have personally always thought of the Benko as a very thematic opening, but as I noted theory has moved on and some of the variations needed to make Blacks game playable are more complex than before.  What I'm trying to say now is that I think we agree.   Smiley   I think the confusion is my fault since when I started the post and the Larsen story, I had originally forgotten that it wasn't a beginner that he was teaching the Benko to!  By the way did I get any of the story wrong?  I'd like someone to check on that.  Also, I'm not sure if the player improved dramatically or not.  I think Larsen just stated that his friend was successful with the Benko.  I believe the implication was that his results were probably better than if he'd stuck to the King's Indian, at least for that tournament.  Apparently, at that time at least, Larsen considered the Benko to be easier to learn than the King's Indian.  Is this still true today?  And I suppose that this discussion has drifted off topic as well!  My apologies for rambling on like this, but it's early and maybe I felt like typing!?

Frendo
  
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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #10 - 07/30/06 at 04:18:34
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Frendo, 

"The average club player" is several notches (about 700 rating points) above a true beginner.  For such a player, let's say around 1500 elo (which used to be the true mean but has drifted upward by nearly 400 points), then yes, let that player experiment with various openings.  That player has already found out a great deal about himself or herself and his/her relationship with chess.  The Benko is just fine for such a player, but I wouldn't expect such a player to rise dramatically just because of learning one opening variation.  Such a player would learn far more just from having a friend such as Bent Larsen!

Enviously, 

SF
  
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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #9 - 07/30/06 at 01:16:17
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Quote:
I personally think the Benko is one of the worst lines to teach young chess players.  It's heavy on endgame theory, breaks all sorts of rules, and is difficult to play unless the student has experience.


Wasn't it Bent Larsen who wrote in How to Open a Chess game that he had a friend who was planning on playing the King's Indian but it became obvious that his understanding of the opening was far below the players level?  And didn't he go on to teach him the Benko Gambit in a couple of hours and was successful with it?  Maybe I'm getting the story wrong since I no longer own the book.  Theory has moved on quite a bit since then but I still think this is a good opening for the average club player.  For real beginners, maybe not, but I think there are variations of almost every opening that will be beyond the their comprehension.  I suppose the formula plan of ...e6,...d5,...c5 against the closed openings is probably a good way to go.
  
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Re: 1...d5 recommended for beginners?
Reply #8 - 07/23/06 at 07:33:33
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I personally think the Benko is one of the worst lines to teach young chess players.  It's heavy on endgame theory, breaks all sorts of rules, and is difficult to play unless the student has experience.  The one plus is that if you want a student to learn an opening by rote, there are few openings that are as forcing.

I often recommend the Tarrasch QGD as Markovich does.  I try not to recommend the Slav because it's one of my pet openings and I often find myself going into too much detail when I am dealing with my favorite lines.

The QGA is strategically simple, but I like teaching the fundamentals of the Classical Orthodox and TMB lines.  I don't tell the students the name of the variations, I just let them find the best moves for themselves.  If they find ...b6, I steer them toward the TMB.   If they find ...c6, I show them the Orthodox and the Cambridge Springs.

Most students don't need to know reams of opening lines, they just need something that is active and gives them chances to play from the very beginning.   

As students get more advanced, I will address their needs on an individual basis.  I have students who successfully play the Tarrasch and Modern Benoni (depending on the move order); I also have students who play the QGA and Cambridge Springs; and some who play QGD TMB lines.  I even have a student who is learning the Chigorin!

This individualised method has one real advantage.  There are teachers in the region who teach one opening only, and it's relatively easy for my students to prepare for them.  My students don't have to worry about some chess coach teaching a one-size-fits-all counter to the systems they learn.
  
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