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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch: State of Play (Read 133096 times)
Dean
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Re: There's still life in the 'old' beast! (7...Ne4)
Reply #111 - 08/12/10 at 18:38:48
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Psycho-Cowboy wrote on 08/12/10 at 12:28:41:
Hi Everyone, 

I have just played an interesting game that is my attempt to make 7...Ne4 playable. 
First of all the game...

S.Sen-S.Williams, Uxbridge, IM closed tournament.
1 Nf3 f5 2 d4 e6 3 c4 Nf6 4 g3 Be7 5 Bg2 0-0 6 0-0 d6 7 Nc3 Ne4 8 Nxe4! fxe4 9 Nd2 d5 10 f3 Nc6 11 fxe4 Rxf1+ 12 Nxf1 dxc4 13 Be3 Bd7! 14 Rc1 b5 15 e5 Nb4!? 16 Bxa8 Qxa8 17 a3 Nd5 18 Bf2 Nb6 19 g4? Bg5 20 Ra1 Qe4 21 Ng3 Qxg4 22 e4 Qxd1+ 23 Rxd1 Na4! 24 Rb1 Bc6 25 d5 exd5 26 exd5 Bxd5 27 Bd4? c5 28 Bc3 Kf7 29 Kf2 Ke6 30 Ke2 g6 31 Rf1 Be7 32 Ke3 Nxc3 etc Black is completley winning and the game lasted another 6 moves or so,

Of course I am not forced to sacrifice the exchange but it lead to an interesting attacking position. This is one thing that has been lacking for Black in this variation.

I believe that 8 Nxe4 is the only way that White can aim to get a advantage. I mentioned the move 13...Bd7 before in a earlier post and it certainly leads to some interesting positions where Black's chances may not be worse.

If that is the case then 7...Ne4! would seem to offer Black a good game...

Anyway more tests are required!

Simon Williams GM

www.gingergm.com (where you can purchase the 'Killer Dutch' DVD!)

Smiley



Interesting sac, the comps don't like it but it looks pretty sound, hard to see how white can break up the position to use his rook.

I didn't know the Ne4 ever was dead...?  Smiley 

I have done very extensive analysis with Rybka after this move. I agree that 8. Nxe4 is critical. 
For a while I thought it almost wasn't playable. Now I think it is very much OK, but certainly black has to know how to play the position. Also good that Avrukh will trick lots of white players to think that 12.Nxf1 is automatic advantage Grin

But I don't agree that 8. Nxe4 is white's only serious chance for advantage.
8. Qc2 is still a decent try, I think just following your book from 2005 is not enough for equality. The fight for the right moment of e2-e4 resp. e6-e5 is complex in the critical lines.

There are also tricky lines delaying Nc3 or playing b4, where black has to know what to do.

BTW, congrats to the excellent French DVD:s! However, I haven't bought the Dutch DVD because in the Dangerous Weapons I thought you missed some critical lines in the Classical Dutch Wink
  
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There's still life in the 'old' beast! (7...Ne4)
Reply #110 - 08/12/10 at 12:28:41
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Hi Everyone, 

I have just played an interesting game that is my attempt to make 7...Ne4 playable. 
First of all the game...

S.Sen-S.Williams, Uxbridge, IM closed tournament.
1 Nf3 f5 2 d4 e6 3 c4 Nf6 4 g3 Be7 5 Bg2 0-0 6 0-0 d6 7 Nc3 Ne4 8 Nxe4! fxe4 9 Nd2 d5 10 f3 Nc6 11 fxe4 Rxf1+ 12 Nxf1 dxc4 13 Be3 Bd7! 14 Rc1 b5 15 e5 Nb4!? 16 Bxa8 Qxa8 17 a3 Nd5 18 Bf2 Nb6 19 g4? Bg5 20 Ra1 Qe4 21 Ng3 Qxg4 22 e4 Qxd1+ 23 Rxd1 Na4! 24 Rb1 Bc6 25 d5 exd5 26 exd5 Bxd5 27 Bd4? c5 28 Bc3 Kf7 29 Kf2 Ke6 30 Ke2 g6 31 Rf1 Be7 32 Ke3 Nxc3 etc Black is completley winning and the game lasted another 6 moves or so,

Of course I am not forced to sacrifice the exchange but it lead to an interesting attacking position. This is one thing that has been lacking for Black in this variation.

I believe that 8 Nxe4 is the only way that White can aim to get a advantage. I mentioned the move 13...Bd7 before in a earlier post and it certainly leads to some interesting positions where Black's chances may not be worse.

If that is the case then 7...Ne4! would seem to offer Black a good game...

Anyway more tests are required!

Simon Williams GM

www.gingergm.com (where you can purchase the 'Killer Dutch' DVD!)

Smiley

  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #109 - 06/14/10 at 10:09:03
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PatzerNoster wrote on 06/14/10 at 02:07:26:
1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.b3 when white will follow up with a quick Bb2 and Nbd2 without c4. Later he might play Re1 and e4.

I think Taimanov proposed this plan. You haven't mentioned White's strategical goal: to prevent ...e5 with a quick manoeuvre Nf3-e1-d3. If Black unsuspiciously walks into this White will finish development (c2-c4 and Nb1-c3 can be played later or replaced by Nb1-d2-f3) and carry through e2-e4. So Black better knows how to initiate counterplay.
Fortunately there are a couple of methods. A third related one is 6.b3 d6 7.Bb2 Nc6 (why not if Black gets the chance?) 8.Ne1 (8.Nbd2 Qe8 trying to show that Nd2 is misplaced) Ne4 9.Nd2 (9.Nd3 Bf6 followed by 10...e5 is Black's idea as usual) Nxd2 10.Qxd2 Bf6 and as 11.Nd3 drops a pawn I don't see how White can prevent ...e5. If White tries to improve with 9.f3 Nf6 10.Nd3 Black can offer a pawn with e5 and get active play.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #108 - 06/14/10 at 02:41:16
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I'd suggest 6...a5!? as an interesting option, e.g. 7. a3 d6 8. Bb2 Qe8
9. Nbd2 Nc6 10. e3 Bd8 11. Ne1 e5 12. dxe5 dxe5 and Black had no problems in Matlak-S.Williams, Salzburg 2004. 7.c4 doesn't offer White anything either after 7...a4 8.ba4 d5 9.cd5 Nd5 with equality in Troianescu-Plater, 1958. 

Another good antidote is 6...d6 7.Bb2 Ne4 8.Nbd2 Nc6!?, as played in McFarland-S.Williams, British Championship 2000. 
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #107 - 06/14/10 at 02:07:26
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I own Simon's DVD and since have played the Classical Dutch with some success, however when preparing for games I noticed an annoying white option that is not discussed on the DVD:

1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.b3 when white will follow up with a quick Bb2 and Nbd2 without c4. Later he might play Re1 and e4. This plan is also popular against the Leningrad.

Can anybody help me?
I noticed that quite a few strong players like this setup for white...
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #106 - 06/07/10 at 14:57:27
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I wonder if this is the same idiot who posted a negative review of Williams' "Play the Classical Dutch" book on amazon.com, where he basically admits to never having read the book, but gives it a negative review because he likes the Leningrad better.

  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #105 - 06/06/10 at 17:02:52
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Ignore this post, sorry...
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #104 - 06/06/10 at 16:50:41
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Quote:
it's plain simple: the classical dutch suxx, you should never dare to play it. The only dutch opening that is still playable is the leningrad. And if you like passive positions you can also play the stonewall.



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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #103 - 06/06/10 at 12:42:59
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Quote:
it's plain simple: the classical dutch suxx, you should never dare to play it. The only dutch opening that is still playable is the leningrad. And if you like passive positions you can also play the stonewall.


Oh dearie me. Strong opinions, but from an obvious duffer. 
When did this become youtube? Is there no moron filter on yahoo BB?

Anyhow start with this:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1400773&kpage=1#reply3
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #102 - 06/06/10 at 12:33:45
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Sure. And GM Williams is not smart enough to understand the genius of your remark.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #101 - 06/05/10 at 21:06:10
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it's plain simple: the classical dutch suxx, you should never dare to play it. The only dutch opening that is still playable is the leningrad. And if you like passive positions you can also play the stonewall.
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #100 - 06/05/10 at 20:46:00
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Neither do I. As even 9...fxe4 10.Nxe4 e5 looks fine I never have bothered to look seriously at this line.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #99 - 06/05/10 at 20:40:00
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What is the current status of 1.d4 f5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 Be7 5.Bg2 0-0 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 a5 8.Qc2 Nc6 9.e4 e5?  People seem to recommend  9... Nb4 10.Qe2 fxe4 11.Nxe4 Nxe4 12.Qxe4 e5 instead, but I don't know of a concrete refutation of 9...e5.



  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #98 - 03/05/10 at 23:44:42
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I've been trying to follow this thread, but am now just about completely lost.  I have (almost) no idea what the first ten moves are that some of you are discussing.  And judging from some of the comments, I'm not alone.

Someone spoke of 10...c6, and later 21...c6 came up as a candidate move.  That's quite a trick.

Would someone pls provide a diagram and the moves that you're discussing so the rest of us can follow along?



Thanks!
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #97 - 03/05/10 at 16:20:08
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Thanks, I already corrected it! However I'm not sure what you mean with 8. ... Bf5 ?!

After 10. ... Nc6 11.0-0 how can black avoid taking on c4 in the long term (which would lead back to the position discussed)?
  
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