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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch: State of Play (Read 133095 times)
MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #126 - 04/24/11 at 20:57:20
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State of play in the Dutch Bb4 variations is fine afaIc.

Dugushov,S - MNb [A90]
em WS/H/267, 2011

1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4+ 5.Nd2 0-0 6.Ngf3 b6 7.Ne5 Ne4 8.0-0 Bxd2 9.Bxd2 Bb7 10.Bc1 Qe7 11.b3 d6 12.Nd3 e5 13.Bb2 Nd7 14.f3 Nef6 15.d5 Rae8 16.e4 fxe4 17.fxe4 Nc5 18.Nxc5 bxc5 19.Qd3 a5 20.Bc3 Ra8 21.Rab1 Qe8 22.Qd2 a4 23.b4 cxb4 24.Rxb4 Bc8 25.Qe2 Bg4 26.Qc2 Qh5 27.Rxa4 Rxa4 28.Qxa4 Be2 29.Rf2 Rb8 30.Bh3 Bd3 31.Be6+ Kh8 32.Rb2 Rxb2 33.Bxb2 g6 34.g4 Qh3 0-1

I must admit I had not expect to win that quickly when playing 24...Bc8.
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #125 - 04/18/11 at 10:14:58
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Quote:
It will not be easy to find an engine that comes up with that plan in this unknown position

My Rybka wants to play ...a5 all the time in Hoember's game. But I'm not accusing you of strictly copying silicon moves. Apologies if I made that impression.
I only wanted to stress my independent thinking. Which is not the case, because the plan ...d6; ...Qe8; ....Nc6; and ...e5; is not original either.   Wink

The plan 6...a5 7.b5 b6 (I have seen it before as well) indeed makes a lot of sense now d4-d5 has become attractive. However on our level (my otb-rating is about 1800) the straightforward preparing of ...e5 is very easy and as you have seen many white players have hardly a clue how to meet it. Hoember's game reminded me of several games I won as Black.
Another question if it's good.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Hehmer
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #124 - 04/18/11 at 09:08:28
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MNb wrote on 04/17/11 at 20:40:40:
Intrigued by Hehmer's comments I decided to take another look.

Quote:
6...d6: 6...a5 7.b5 b6 is equal IMO.

The engines and a lot of theoreticians like setups like this, but not me. I raise the question: how to develop the Queen's Knight?
I think the plan with ...Qe8 and ...e5 more straightforward.



It will not be easy to find an engine that comes up with that plan in this unknown position but I admit that it's not very original and that I've probably seen it somewhere before. I play chess since 45 years and have read a lot of chess books and periodicals. My rating is above 2300 since 30 years and when I was younger I often analyzed with stronger players. Even most GMs at least 
pretended to take my ideas seriously. So I don't know where I got this plan from but I can explain the general idea. 

The white pawnchain loses mobility, c5 is unlikely to happen, d5 makes a hole on c5 and e4 is under firm control. Black will follow up with Bb7, Ne4, d6, Nd7, Bf6, Qe7 not necessarily in that order. 


MNb wrote on 04/17/11 at 20:40:40:



Quote:
15.h3!?: 15.e4 +=

That's what my computer also says, but it's not what I say. 15.e4 Ng6 16.c5 Nf4 17.g3 Nxe2+ (Be2 hampers the pawnstorm ...h5) 18.Bxe2 Bd7 19.Nc4 Be7 and Black is OK.
I would have worried more (in a corr.game) about 15.f4.
This means that I would use a lot of time to design my strategy at move 14.



16.c5 doesn't yet make sense. It's too early and d5 gets weakened without compensation. 15.e4 was the first idea when I saw that position. The intention is to take on f5 exchange the white squared bishop and occupy e4 with the knight later on. But now I see that 16.exf5 Bxf5 17.Bg4 gets problematic after 17...Bd3. To find out the truth about this a good engine would be helpful. 
White can also avoid the complications with 16.g3 or 16.Bh5!? Qe7 17.g3. 

  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #123 - 04/18/11 at 01:36:36
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I strongly dislike the Stonewall, so yes, 4...Bb4 combined with a queenside fianchetto. Black wins the battle of square e4.
In this particular case (1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 d5) the Stonewall is particularly bad. The plan Bf4, e3, Bd3, Qc2 and 0-0-0 is very good.
After 4.e3 it's b6 5.Bd3 Bb7 6.f3 Be7. Though I must admit that Black has better reasons here to play 4...d5.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #122 - 04/17/11 at 23:31:36
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I saw the van den berg line - I would take it MnB that you would recommend the Bb4 line then in case of Nf3? or maybe a Stonewall?
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #121 - 04/17/11 at 20:40:40
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Intrigued by Hehmer's comments I decided to take another look.

BirdBrain wrote on 04/16/11 at 17:03:33:
1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.a3 0-0 6.b4 d6 7.Bb2 Qe8 8.e3 Ne4 9.Be2 Bf6 10.0-0 Nxc3 11. Bxc3 Nc6 12.Rc1 e5 13.d5 Ne7 14.Nd2 g5 15.h3 Qg6 16. f3 h5 17.Kh2 g4 18.hxg4 hxg4 19.fxg4 fxg4 20.g3 Kg7 21. Rh1 Rh8+ 22.Kg2 Bd7 23.e4 Rh5 24.Qc2 Rah8 25.Rcf1 Qh6 26.Qd1 Rh2+ 1-0


Quote:
6...d6: 6...a5 7.b5 b6 is equal IMO.

The engines and a lot of theoreticians like setups like this, but not me. I raise the question: how to develop the Queen's Knight?
I think the plan with ...Qe8 and ...e5 more straightforward.

Quote:
10.O-O: 10.Nxe4!? fxe4 11.Nd2 d5 12.O-O is also good for White.

That's correct. The logical conclusion is then that Black should have played 9...Nxc3 10.Bxc3 Bf6 transposing or even 10...Nd7.
Note that 9.Nxe4 fxe4 10.Nd2 does not transpose; Black has Qf7, Qg6 and d5 11.Be2 Bd7 to chose from.

Quote:
13.b5 Nd8 14.dxe5 dxe5 15.c5 is still a bit easier for White.

I don't think White has much after 15...e4 16.Nd4 Ne6. Still White should have played this.
After 13.d5 Ne7 it looks consequent to try 14.c5.

Quote:
15.h3!?: 15.e4 +=

That's what my computer also says, but it's not what I say. 15.e4 Ng6 16.c5 Nf4 17.g3 Nxe2+ (Be2 hampers the pawnstorm ...h5) 18.Bxe2 Bd7 19.Nc4 Be7 and Black is OK.
I would have worried more (in a corr.game) about 15.f4.
This means that I would use a lot of time to design my strategy at move 14.

Quote:
15...Qg6?!: 15...Bd7

From here I agree and I would like to add 16.e4 Ng6 going to f4.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #120 - 04/17/11 at 17:05:56
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Thanks for the posts - I will research that game you mentioned MnB, and I will take a look at your analysis Hehmer and learn these ideas.  I am always anxious to get in g5 whenever possible, so I appreciate the feedback to offer a more restrained approach.
  
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Hehmer
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #119 - 04/17/11 at 12:58:46
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BirdBrain wrote on 04/16/11 at 17:03:33:
I have been playing the Dutch for some time, and I wanted to post a game on here and see if someone has ideas - I was pretty happy with the results, but am always looking for ways to improve my play.  

1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. Nf3 Be7 (normally I play Bb4 here, but was looking for an alternate route) 5. a3 0-0 (could have played a5) 6. b4 d6 7. Bb2 Qe8 8. e3 Ne4 9. Be2 Bf6 10. 0-0 Nxc3 (this is one of my question points - I wasn't sure if it made sense to trade this knight - I liked the solidity of my pawn structure, and wanted to keep the pawn on f5 for the moment) 11. Bxc3 Nc6 12. Rc1 (I don't think this is best) e5 13. d5 Ne7 14. Nd2 g5 15. h3 Qg6 16. f3 (pretty passive to me) h5 17. Kh2 g4 18. hxg4 hxg4 19. fxg4 fxg4 20. g3 Kg7 (to connect rooks - a theme of my play in these type of positions with attack on the h-file, either Kg7 or Kf7) 21. Rh1 Rh8+ 22. Kg2 Bd7 23. e4 (blocks my knight, but I still have the h-file) Rh5 24. Qc2 Rah8 25. Rcf1 Qh6 26. Qd1 Rh2+ 1-0

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  For instance, I wonder if I should have postponed ...0-0 for ...a5, if I should have left the knight on e4...those are the main ideas I was unsure of.  I felt they were decent choices (...0-0 and ...Nxc3), but wondered if there was something better. 


5...O-O: 5...a5?! would be useless. Even the straightforward 6.Qc2 and 7.e4 is good then.

6...d6: 6...a5 7.b5 b6 is equal IMO.

10.O-O: 10.Nxe4!? fxe4 11.Nd2 d5 12.O-O is also good for White.

10...Nxc3: I see nothing else. White is slightly better here. 

12.Rc1: Not a bad move. 

13.d5: Now it's nearly equal. 13.b5 Nd8 14.dxe5 dxe5 15.c5 is still a bit easier for White.

14...g5?!: Better 14...Bd7 

15.h3!?: 15.e4 +=

15...Qg6?!: 15...Bd7

16.f3?!: Better 16.e4! with advantage on both wings.

17.Kh2?: 17.c5

18.hxg4?: 18.f4 defends.

20...Kg7: Good idea, but 20...Nf5 wins quicker.
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #118 - 04/16/11 at 20:29:00
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It's hard to say anything sensible about your play as your opponent didn't really fight. Having that said such play by White is pretty typical on our level and you won nicely.
So I have just one remark. From at theoretical point of view 4...Be7 is imprecise because of Van den Berg - Burstein, Tel Aviv 1958. But White easily could have transposed with 4.a3 Be7 5.Nf3.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #117 - 04/16/11 at 17:04:49
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http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=119545975

Here is a link to the game, if it is easier to view it.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #116 - 04/16/11 at 17:03:33
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I have been playing the Dutch for some time, and I wanted to post a game on here and see if someone has ideas - I was pretty happy with the results, but am always looking for ways to improve my play.   

1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. Nf3 Be7 (normally I play Bb4 here, but was looking for an alternate route) 5. a3 0-0 (could have played a5) 6. b4 d6 7. Bb2 Qe8 8. e4 Ne4 9. Be2 Bf6 10. 0-0 Nxc3 (this is one of my question points - I wasn't sure if it made sense to trade this knight - I liked the solidity of my pawn structure, and wanted to keep the pawn on f5 for the moment) 11. Bxc3 Nc6 12. Rc1 (I don't think this is best) e5 13. d5 Ne7 14. Nd2 g5 15. h3 Qg6 16. f3 (pretty passive to me) h5 17. Kh2 g4 18. hxg4 hxg4 19. fxg4 fxg4 20. g3 Kg7 (to connect rooks - a theme of my play in these type of positions with attack on the h-file, either Kg7 or Kf7) 21. Rh1 Rh8+ 22. Kg2 Bd7 23. e4 (blocks my knight, but I still have the h-file) Rh5 24. Qc2 Rah8 25. Rcf1 Qh6 26. Qd1 Rh2+ 1-0

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  For instance, I wonder if I should have postponed ...0-0 for ...a5, if I should have left the knight on e4...those are the main ideas I was unsure of.  I felt they were decent choices (...0-0 and ...Nxc3), but wondered if there was something better.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #115 - 02/27/11 at 03:22:21
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The 13...Bd7 line was played on ICC today, though marred by time trouble.

[Event "ICC 45 45"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2011.02.26"]
[Round "-"]
[White "MusiqueWand"]
[Black "theophilus"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ICCResult "Game drawn by repetition"]
[WhiteElo "2366"]
[BlackElo "2248"]
[Opening "Dutch: classical variation"]
[ECO "A96"]
[NIC "HD.01"]
[Time "10:34:41"]
[TimeControl "2700+45"]

1. d4 e6 2. c4 f5 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. Nf3 O-O 6. O-O d6 7. Nc3 Ne4 8.
Nxe4 fxe4 9. Nd2 d5 10. f3 Nc6 11. fxe4 Rxf1+ 12. Nxf1 dxc4 13. Be3 Bd7 14.
b3 cxb3 15. Qxb3 Na5 16. Qd3 e5 17. d5 b6 18. Rc1 c5 19. Nd2 a6 20. Nf3 Bf6
21. Qc2 Rc8 22. Nd2 Nb7 23. Qd3 b5 24. Qa3 a5 25. Qb3 Qe7 26. Nc4 a4 27. Qb2
Rb8 28. Nd2 Rf8 29. Nc4 Be8 30. Rb1 Rf7 31. Na3 b4 32. Nc4 Bb5 33. Qc1 Qd7
34. h3 Rf8 35. Kh2 Ba6 36. Bf3 Qb5 37. Na3 Qa5 38. Nc4 Qb5 39. Na3 Qa5 40.
Nc4 Qb5 {Game drawn by repetition} 1/2-1/2

http://team4545league.org/pgnplayer/pgnplayer.php?id=43129 ;

  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #114 - 11/19/10 at 07:02:09
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Has anyone looked at the computer suggestion 8.Nxe4 f3 9.Nd2 d5 10. f3 Bf6!? ? It is not covered in Avrukh's GM Repertoire, and if my analysis are correct, I think it saves a tempo over Avukh's recommendation against IZ Classical Dutch.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #113 - 11/18/10 at 21:34:05
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Hi everyone,
I´m still a big fan of 7...Ne4 despite the following painful loss against IM Stern. I played Rybka´s suggestion 13...Qd7!? (instead of Simon Williams´ 13...Bd7). After 38 minutes Stern replied 14. e5 Rb8 15.d5, and now I forgot "my" analysis 15... Nb4! 16.dxe6 Qb5 or 16...Qxd1 17.Rxd1 Bxe6 18.Bxa7 Ra8 19.Bd4 Rd8. I played 15... Nxe5?! 16.Qd4 Qd6? (Bd6 17.Qxa7 c6 18.dxc6 Nxc6 19.Qb6 Ra8!) and overlooked 17.Bf4 Bf6 18.Qxa7 c6 19.dxc6 bxc6 20.Rd1!! +- (Stern-Albrecht, Berlin-Lichtenberg op 08/08/2010), 1:0/25.
Black seems to get a playable position after (13...Qd7) 14.e5 Rb8 15.Rc1 b5 16.d5 Nxe5 17.Qd4 Bd6 18.Qxa7 c6 and 14.d5 Ne5 15.Bd4 (15.Bh3 Qe8) Nf7! 16.Qc2 b5 17.a4 c6 as well.
  
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Re: There's still life in the 'old' beast! (7...Ne4)
Reply #112 - 08/17/10 at 16:59:35
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Psycho-Cowboy wrote on 08/12/10 at 12:28:41:
Hi Everyone, 

I have just played an interesting game that is my attempt to make 7...Ne4 playable. 
First of all the game...

S.Sen-S.Williams, Uxbridge, IM closed tournament.
1 Nf3 f5 2 d4 e6 3 c4 Nf6 4 g3 Be7 5 Bg2 0-0 6 0-0 d6 7 Nc3 Ne4 8 Nxe4! fxe4 9 Nd2 d5 10 f3 Nc6 11 fxe4 Rxf1+ 12 Nxf1 dxc4 13 Be3 Bd7! 14 Rc1 b5 15 e5 Nb4!? 16 Bxa8 Qxa8 17 a3 Nd5 18 Bf2 Nb6 19 g4? Bg5 20 Ra1 Qe4 21 Ng3 Qxg4 22 e4 Qxd1+ 23 Rxd1 Na4! 24 Rb1 Bc6 25 d5 exd5 26 exd5 Bxd5 27 Bd4? c5 28 Bc3 Kf7 29 Kf2 Ke6 30 Ke2 g6 31 Rf1 Be7 32 Ke3 Nxc3 etc Black is completley winning and the game lasted another 6 moves or so,

Of course I am not forced to sacrifice the exchange but it lead to an interesting attacking position. This is one thing that has been lacking for Black in this variation.

I believe that 8 Nxe4 is the only way that White can aim to get a advantage. I mentioned the move 13...Bd7 before in a earlier post and it certainly leads to some interesting positions where Black's chances may not be worse.

If that is the case then 7...Ne4! would seem to offer Black a good game...

Anyway more tests are required!

Simon Williams GM

www.gingergm.com (where you can purchase the 'Killer Dutch' DVD!)

Smiley


13...Bd7! looks like an important novelty, continuing queenside development and planning ...b5 or ...Bd7-e8-g6. White must watch out for 14.Nd2?! Nxd4! 15.Bxd4 Ba4!. And even if the exchange sac (15...Nb4) turns out to be questionable, Black should still be fine with 15...Rb8 (e.g. 16.b3?! Ba3 17.Rc2 Nb4).

Of course there are other moves for White apart from 14.Rc1 and 14.Nd2?! - one that catches my eye is 14.Bh3!?, preventing ...Be8. White may be "threatening" 15.Nd2 (since 15...Nxd4?! 16.Nxd4 Ba4 would now run into 17.Bxe6+), or possibly 15.d5.
  
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