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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Transpositions in the various QG lines (Read 13936 times)
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Re: Transpositions in the various QG lines
Reply #6 - 09/05/06 at 06:22:54
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Willempie: Yes. That's what I assumed. See above.

Please note that Cox don't suggest Nf3 after d5, e6 and c6. 
e6, Nf6 (or Be7): cxd5 and exchange variation
c6, Nf6 (and e6 after that): Nf3 and Botvinnik variation
c6, e6 (before Nf6): e4 and Marshall gambit
  

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Re: Transpositions in the various QG lines
Reply #5 - 09/05/06 at 06:14:59
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Thanks for the replies, I am going through them today. I noticed I had cut (or rather pasted) short a variation.
In stead of 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 Be7 I meant 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 Nf6 (or some other move order) 5. Bg5 Be7 (or with h6 Bh4 included).
  

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Re: Transpositions in the various QG lines
Reply #4 - 09/05/06 at 01:50:39
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Willempie wrote on 09/04/06 at 09:51:19:
-1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 dxc4, now it looks like 4.e4 is best but then iirc this transposes to a QGA with 3 e4 line of which I know next to nothing. So what's the idea after eg 4.e4 c5 5.d5 (I think) exd5 6.Nxd5


5.Nf3 has been played with considerable success. Spielmann defeated in Carlsbad 1929 Grünfeld in a model attacking game. As you are asking for transpositions, the famous game Capablanca-Bogoljubow, Moscow 1925 is similar.
  

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Re: Transpositions in the various QG lines
Reply #3 - 09/04/06 at 17:55:21
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1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.e4 is pretty much just better for White, though I guess Black can play this way if he wants to.  At best, Black will reach a line that usually comes about after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dc 3.e4 c5 4.d5.  Nowadays, 3...c5 is considered inferior to 3...Nc6 and 3...e5, though it's certainly playable. I refer you to theoretical sources for info on this line.  If Black avoide 4...c5 he will just be clearly worse.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 Be7 is a line that I've never come across in play.  I might personally prefer to try to steer the play to a Closed-Catalan type position, though a simple way of playing might just be 5.e3!?.  Now when ...Nbd7 comes Black will just have a worse form of a Meran Semi-Slav, as the Bishop is on e7 instead of d6.  You might even try Shabalov-like play, i.e.: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.e3 0-0 6.Qc2 Nbd7 7.g4 (or something like that) is probably a good pawn sac.  If 5.e3 isn't to your taste, you might try 5.Bf4 when Black is denied the "standard" line with an early c7-c5 push.  However, Black might be able to take advantage of this particular move order with something like 5.Bf4 dc.  Personally, I'd play either 5.e3 or try to get a Closed-Catalan with 5.g3 or the like.  By the way, there are many good ways for White to play the Meran without resorting to the extremely trendy Shabalov stuff.

Against the Slav, 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3 is purely a matter of taste.  Traditionally, 3.Nf3 has been preferred to avoid the Winawer Counter-Gambit (3.Nc3 e5) and 3.Nc3 dxc4.  However, I personally like playing against 3...dxc4 and the Winawer, so I play 3.Nc3.  It's a matter of taste, but if your intention is to play the main-line Slav positions anyway, it's considered better to play 3.Nf3 because it avoids Black's 3rd move deviations.  After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6, I play 4.e3, which is a whole different story...

That Korchnoi-Kasparov game is a strange one; as far as I know, the only way for White to get anything after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 dc is with 4.e4, when something like 4...b5 5.a4 b4 6.Ne2 Nf6 7.Ng3 can prove quite fun for the first player.  After 4.e3, I always thought the recommended antitode was just 4...e5 and Black is already equal.  But then, those players know a lot more about chess than me!


edit: Wow, while I was typing the above post two people already responded.  I hope that helps!

  
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Re: Transpositions in the various QG lines
Reply #2 - 09/04/06 at 17:49:03
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I can answer the part about the Slav but please realise there's quite a bit more to study, as Graham Burgess' The Slav points out.   

The main historic reason for 3.Nf3 over 3...Nc3 is that it prevents the fairly potent countergambit, 3...e5.  3...e5 still shows up occasionally in the games of strong players, but today GMs also recognise there are interesting lines in the Exchange Slav in which White defers Nf3.  There are also problems in transpositions to Meran lines and other Semi-Slavs that may make White choose one Knight move over another, depending on the variation White's trying to reach.   

So to make my answer short:  You'd have to ask the individual why he chose one N over the other!
  
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Re: Transpositions in the various QG lines
Reply #1 - 09/04/06 at 17:44:09
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I'm no QG expert and I'm also working with the Cox book at the moment. I still try to answer.

1) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 dxc4 is a quite rare line. I've looked a few references which dismiss it quickly. The second revised QGA book by Sakaev and Semkov treated it more seriously. It's given a full chapter. (5 pages)

1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 c5?! 4.d5 e6 5.Nc3 exd5 6.Nxd5 Ne7 7.Bxc4 Nxd5 8.Bxd5 Be7. 9.Ne2!? seems to be their preference although 9.Nf3 also looks okay.

2) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 Be7? No. Cox prefers 4.e4. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5.Bg5 Be7 is considered passive because c6 is played too early. See http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1147919525

3) 3. Nc3 is as good as 3.Nf3 and is played quite often nowadays. One reason for playing Nf3 could be that the e5 gambit is ruled out. (A reason for Nc3 is not allowing a proper slav at all with 3...Nf6 4.e3 or 3...dxc4 4.e4.)
  

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Transpositions in the various QG lines
09/04/06 at 09:51:19
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I am currently going though the d4-book by Cox and am now working on the QG (20 years too late Grin) and found myself wondering a bit about the issue of move orders and transpositions (they are much harder for me than after 1e4). 
I was wondering a bit about some move-order issues:
-1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 dxc4, now it looks like 4.e4 is best but then iirc this transposes to a QGA with 3 e4 line of which I know next to nothing. So what's the idea after eg 4.e4 c5 5.d5 (I think) exd5 6.Nxd5
-1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 Be7. Cox mentions that this transposes to a passive version of the QGD, but from my limited knowledge both Be7 and c6 are quite standard in a Lasker and the other variation whose name eludes me. So what would be a proper way to "exploit" this?
-In the slav why is 3.Nf3 preferred over 3.Nc3? I remember that recently Korchnoi played this way against Kasparov in which Korchnoi seemed to get better play up until about move 12. Since I am not yet at their level I am prolly wrong though Grin
[Event "Zuerich Lichthof Champions"]
[Site "Zuerich"]
[Date "2006.08.22"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Kortschnoj,Viktor"]
[Black "Kasparov,Garry"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "D25"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.e3 Be6 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Ng5 Qc8 7.a4 g6 8.a5 Bg7 9.Nxe6 Qxe6 10.Ra4 Nbd7 11.Bxc4 Qd6 12.e4 e5 13.dxe5 Qxd1+ 14.Nxd1 Nxe5 15.Be2 0-0-0 16.Be3 Nd3+ 17.Bxd3 Rxd3 18.Ke2 Rb3 19.Bxa7 Re8 20.f3 Nd5 21.Kd2 Nb4 22.Bb6 Bh6+ 23.Ke2 f5 24.Bc5 Nd3 25.Bb6 Nxb2 26.Nxb2 Rxb2+ 27.Kd3 Rxg2 28.exf5 gxf5 29.Rh4 Re6 30.Rh3 Kd7 31.Rg3 Rd2+ 32.Kc3 Ree2 33.Rg8 Rc2+ 34.Kb3 Rb2+ 35.Kc3 Rec2+ 36.Kd3 Rd2+ 37.Kc3 Rxh2 38.Rxh2 Rxh2 39.Rb8 Ke6 40.Rxb7 Ra2 41.Rxh7 Bf4 42.Rh5 Ra3+ 43.Kc2 Be5 44.Bc5 Kd5 45.Rxf5 Kxc5 1/2

So could anyone give me some pointers on these minor issues?
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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