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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C00-C19: Ziegler's new Chessbase French DVD (Read 19333 times)
Willempie
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #22 - 03/15/07 at 10:20:26
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Paddy wrote on 03/12/07 at 13:21:17:
Daniel King in today's Guardian newspaper expresses some of what I was trying to convey in my previous post about the "spirit" in which the French should be played:

"The French is not a defensive opening, or rather it's a mistake to play it defensively. The secure central pawn chain gives Black the freedom to counter-attack on the flanks, and it's important Black takes that opportunity."

Depends on the lines, it is certainly not true for the dxe4 complex (Rubinstein and the likes). I'd also urge any Frenchy to focus on attacking/destabilising the center iso counterattacking on the flanks.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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ghenghisclown
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #21 - 03/15/07 at 04:29:47
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Yes, thanks for the clarification on what section that line is dealt with.

Quote:
"The French is not a defensive opening, or rather it's a mistake to play it defensively. The secure central pawn chain gives Black the freedom to counter-attack on the flanks, and it's important Black takes that opportunity."

Yeah, I owned his tape too on the French, in which he recommended that exchange sac, as well, for the center pawns, however. Still, I'm planning on playing it anyway, after I take a closer look at the line given by kaufman in his repertoire book (in which he gives the Tarrasch against the French).
  

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Paddy
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #20 - 03/12/07 at 13:21:17
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ghenghisclown wrote on 03/07/07 at 00:50:30:


**Also, I asked to be corrected! In which part of the DVD does he deal with  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ngf3 cxd4  8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.0-0 Bd6 11.Nb3 0-0 ??
[quote] 

I do have some sympathy with your criticisms. The DVD is not perfect. Some lines are covered in great detail, others rather skimped. Also the layout could be improved. Ziegler does cover 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ngf3 cxd4  8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.0-0 Bd6 11.Nb3 0-0 but it's in the first section of the Tarrasch with f4! I think that covering it in a separate section would have been clearer.

Nevertheless IMHO there is a lot of very useful material on this DVD, well explained by an IM who actually plays these lines. I am sure that anyone who studies the DVD thoroughly, several times, and then backs it up with personal research and lots of training games, will develop a good feel for typical blocked French positions and have the basis of a robust but dynamic French repertoire.

[quote] Sacrifices (e.g. of the exchange) are absolutely key to making many lines viable for Black.
I'm willing to except this in certain lines of the Winawer. That's why I got rid of my copy of "Play the French." 
[quote] 

Daniel King in today's Guardian newspaper expresses some of what I was trying to convey in my previous post about the "spirit" in which the French should be played:

"The French is not a defensive opening, or rather it's a mistake to play it defensively. The secure central pawn chain gives Black the freedom to counter-attack on the flanks, and it's important Black takes that opportunity."
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #19 - 03/07/07 at 01:00:35
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Upon further reflection, it seems he could not have given an alternative to the sac that would have adhered to the "centre method." 6...Qb6 I guess... Still he could have squeezed in a game. 

  

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ghenghisclown
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #18 - 03/07/07 at 00:50:30
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I have the DVD, I looked at the final odds and ends section, and the Advanced variation parts and the first section from both the Classical and Steinitz variations. Let me say it's a very good DVD, no question about that. However, I think any work is open to some criticism.

I can live with his lack of analysis of the KIA. That was but a minor gripe. You have to admit, however, that he probably should have added something coherent to study. Too many masters produce products with untested suggestions. If you're going to suggest something that has not been played much, then you should present some original work on it. 

**Also, I asked to be corrected! In which part of the DVD does he deal with  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ngf3 cxd4  8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.0-0 Bd6 11.Nb3 0-0 ??

Because I'd like to take a look. So far I only see sections involving 7.Ne2. Maybe I need to look at it again. I certainly don't remember him mentioning "  At one time 9 Ng5 was thought to be very dangerous for Black but this now seems unsound."

I guess, I'm going to have to buy the Pedersen book. 

I certainly do not think Ziegler should do all the work for me. He should, however, point me in the right direction. That's my point. He could have also said "I included a game in the database that demonstrates how to handle this." Time and data-wise, that would have been cheap to do. I'd have to study it, but he would have pointed me in the right direction.  

Quote:
Sacrifices (e.g. of the exchange) are absolutely key to making many lines viable for Black.
I'm willing to except this in certain lines of the Winawer. That's why I got rid of my copy of "Play the French." Your argument might hold true for GM chess, such as

Quote:
It is natural that he concentrates on what are the most theoretically critical lines in master practice, not the bottom division of your local league.


But he is not writing for those people. He is writing for me, the lowly club player. You know, the person who buys 90% of the crap out there? Like I said before, the line is interesting and complex, but perhaps not my cup of tea. I'm also unsure of the stats you raise as there may be some lurking variables. 

I do not regard the French as strategically risky, or at least to the extent that Black has to sac to make things happen. More likely, Ziegler chose the line to cut down on the workload in the DVD, which is understandable. 

The problem is this: In the KIA, and the Milner-Barry, he gave some alternative lines in case his main choices are somehow rejected by the viewer. He probably should have done that in this instance.
  

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Paddy
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #17 - 03/06/07 at 13:23:23
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ghenghisclown wrote on 03/05/07 at 09:10:52:
I think the point is that repertoire colections such as this DVD and Watson's last "Play the French" rely too much on the GM tendency towards material imbalance.   

Correct me if  I'm wrong here, but doesn't Ziegler also leave out the Korchnoi Gambit/Universal system? He mentions it in the chapter on 9.Nf4, but only as an idea of putting the knight on d2 to b3. There is no mention of this system beyond that. He could have at least put in a game in the database on it.

I don't mean to complain too much, but I just think repertoire recommendations by international level players tend to skimp on what I'm most likely to see in tournaments.


I feel that some of the criticism this CD is getting is unfair. Ziegler is proposing a coherent repertoire of playable lines, based as far as possible on bringing about the basic blocked French structure and then attacking White's centre with ...c5 and, where possible, ...f6. It is natural that he concentrates on what are the most theoretically critical lines in master practice, not the bottom division of your local league.

Sacrifices
The French is a strategically risky defence (why else do you think so few of the chess elite play it as Black?) since it concedes space on a long-term basis and saddles Black with a problem piece (Bc8). It should not come as a surprise therefore that (as in the King's Indian) Black often needs to play dynamically to get sufficient counterplay. Sacrifices (e.g. of the exchange) are absolutely key to making many lines viable for Black. Sacrifices (to bust the centre, get at the white king or free the bad bishop) "go with the territory". Get used to it, or change defence.

Tarrasch 3...Nf6 main line
Ziegler suggests playing the main line without an early development of the black queen. This is consistent with his other recommendations - in general he feels that it is best to avoid an early commitment of the black queen. This requires that Black be willing to face the forcing line 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 . 9.Nf4 Nxd4 10.Qh5+ Ke7 11.exf6+ Nxf6 12.Ng6+ hxg6 13.Qxh8 Kf7. This line is very unbalanced but well established in practice and offers chances for both sides. OK, the position is very unusual, but you can study it and figure out how (and how not) to play it. In approx. 250 games played with this line in the last decade, Black has scored 52%.

Universal system/Korchnoi gambit
Ziegler does not deal with this in any depth because he onsiders that Black can steer round the problems that Black is experiencing currently in this line by playing 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ngf3 cxd4  8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.0-0 Bd6 11.Nb3 0-0, reaching a playable position similar to the 3...Nf6 main line.  At one time 9 Ng5 was thought to be very dangerous for Black but this now seems unsound. I feel he gives enough information to start playing this. If you need more, see e.g. Pedersen pp 113-115, use a database and do your own analysis, then check it with Fritz. It is not reasonable to expect an author (Book or CD) to do everything for you!
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #16 - 03/05/07 at 09:10:52
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I think the point is that repertoire colections such as this DVD and Watson's last "Play the French" rely too much on the GM tendency towards material imbalance.   

Correct me if  I'm wrong here, but doesn't Ziegler also leave out the Korchnoi Gambit/Universal system? He mentions it in the chapter on 9.Nf4, but only as an idea of putting the knight on d2 to b3. There is no mention of this system beyond that. He could have at least put in a game in the database on it.

I don't mean to complain too much, but I just think repertoire recommendations by international level players tend to skimp on what I'm most likely to see in tournaments.
  

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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #15 - 03/05/07 at 07:37:27
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ghenghisclown wrote on 03/05/07 at 03:36:55:
Yeah, I agree. The line he gives against the KIA looks a little dodgy to me too. In the U.S. anyway, plenty of people play the KIA - particularly if they play the French themselves.  So, perhaps its more important than he realizes to take it seriously. He says studying the theory will pay dividends but he gives a line with no theory!! So, I have to use Deep Junior to figure it out? 

He doesn't look at Ng5 instead of Bh3 in that line. I guess because e5 is good enough but he only really gives a fragment. I would have preferred he skip his discussion of the Wing gambit and used the extra time to detail the KIA.

He mentions 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4.g3 dxe4 followed by e5 for Black but that doesn't lead anywhere. He could have discussed b6 systems since thats 1) challenging to white 2) doesn't involve sacking a pawn 3) is a winning attempt

In this case, Ziegler catches the Watson disease, needlessly recommending a sac (ok this time it's only a pawn and not the exchange) and then not fully explaining it. His only explanation is that White doesn't have a pin on Black's f-pawn (it's exchanged after Black plays f6) as he does in a Marshall and so this is an improved version of the Marshall Attack of the Ruy. He forgets to mention the other difference: In a Marshall, Black has the Bishop's pointing at White's king. Here he is missing his light squared bishop. He could have given a blitz game, or a rapid game or a training game (there don't seem to be any GM games with this). 

I guess my other gripe is that he gives the exchange sac line against the Tarrasch, with Ne2 to Nf4 threatening Qh5+ (like Daniel King's video, if memory serves). It's complex and interesting, but why not an alternative? It seems to me that's White's plan is rather obvious, consolidate, restrain but put pressure on Black's pawn phalanx (especially the f pawn) and exchange Black's remaining rook. 

Maybe a master can help me here, if I play the French, must I be prepared to offer the Exchange Sacrifice??


Uh, well, you could always play (e.g.) 3...c5, or, if you stick to 3...Nf6, you might play (e.g.) the system 4. e5 Nfd7 5. Bd3 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Ne2 Qb6 8. Nf3 cd 9. cd f6.
  
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #14 - 03/05/07 at 03:36:55
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Yeah, I agree. The line he gives against the KIA looks a little dodgy to me too. In the U.S. anyway, plenty of people play the KIA - particularly if they play the French themselves.  So, perhaps its more important than he realizes to take it seriously. He says studying the theory will pay dividends but he gives a line with no theory!! So, I have to use Deep Junior to figure it out? 

He doesn't look at Ng5 instead of Bh3 in that line. I guess because e5 is good enough but he only really gives a fragment. I would have preferred he skip his discussion of the Wing gambit and used the extra time to detail the KIA.

He mentions 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4.g3 dxe4 followed by e5 for Black but that doesn't lead anywhere. He could have discussed b6 systems since thats 1) challenging to white 2) doesn't involve sacking a pawn 3) is a winning attempt

In this case, Ziegler catches the Watson disease, needlessly recommending a sac (ok this time it's only a pawn and not the exchange) and then not fully explaining it. His only explanation is that White doesn't have a pin on Black's f-pawn (it's exchanged after Black plays f6) as he does in a Marshall and so this is an improved version of the Marshall Attack of the Ruy. He forgets to mention the other difference: In a Marshall, Black has the Bishop's pointing at White's king. Here he is missing his light squared bishop. He could have given a blitz game, or a rapid game or a training game (there don't seem to be any GM games with this). 

I guess my other gripe is that he gives the exchange sac line against the Tarrasch, with Ne2 to Nf4 threatening Qh5+ (like Daniel King's video, if memory serves). It's complex and interesting, but why not an alternative? It seems to me that's White's plan is rather obvious, consolidate, restrain but put pressure on Black's pawn phalanx (especially the f pawn) and exchange Black's remaining rook. 

Maybe a master can help me here, if I play the French, must I be prepared to offer the Exchange Sacrifice??
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #13 - 03/03/07 at 15:48:11
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I have had Ziegler's DVD for a few weeks now and find the content quite interesting and objective. Only the line he gives in  the KIA seems a bit dodgy to me. It's not so easy to turn a good old French into a Marshall attack ! I will post some analysis in the next few days.
  
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #12 - 03/01/07 at 22:09:15
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I couldn't get through the DVD.
  
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #11 - 02/27/07 at 17:24:12
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Quote:
Agreed. It's an excellent DvD.
I especially like Ziegler's aim to play ...c5 and a quick ...f6 against most lines, bar the Steinitz. I suspect that there any 'theoretical' problems for those who only watch the DvD may lie, but this shouldn't really be an issue for most viewers.
Perhaps Ziegler's a little too dismissive of 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 e5 Nfd7 5 Nce2 and 3 Nd2 Nf6 4 e5 Nd7 5 Bd3 c5 6 c3 Nc6 7 Ngf3, but his idea against the latter of (I think I recall correctly! - there were almost7 hours to watch over a few weeks) of 7...g5!? looked pretty interesting, or has that been busted somewhere?!


To me the coverage of the Advance seemed a bit woolly, but I liked his coverage of the Classical, Steinitz and Tarrasch, although the 3...Nf6 lines (in the Tarrasch especially) have become very sharp and theoretical these days and require quite a big investment of study time.

Have any of you tried any of Ziegler's suggested lines yet?
Please report any experiences, positive or negative, in this thread
  
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #10 - 12/12/06 at 19:06:05
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Agreed. It's an excellent DvD.
I especially like Ziegler's aim to play ...c5 and a quick ...f6 against most lines, bar the Steinitz. I suspect that there any 'theoretical' problems for those who only watch the DvD may lie, but this shouldn't really be an issue for most viewers.
Perhaps Ziegler's a little too dismissive of 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 e5 Nfd7 5 Nce2 and 3 Nd2 Nf6 4 e5 Nd7 5 Bd3 c5 6 c3 Nc6 7 Ngf3, but his idea against the latter of (I think I recall correctly! - there were almost7 hours to watch over a few weeks) of 7...g5!? looked pretty interesting, or has that been busted somewhere?!
  
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #9 - 11/01/06 at 19:15:32
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This French defence DVD is far above most others in terms of the quantity and quality of content. His presentation is for me far better. It is better to pause and think than to talk a lot if the contents are poor. 
Talking about Chessco critic:

Quote:
A. Don't have people walking around in the background and opening and closing doors. 
B. Tell the presenter to use the mouse to navigate instead of pounding on the keys to get to the position he wants.
C. Edit the audio to make it louder when the speaker goes softer, obviously in a reflective moment.
D. Literally, the videos are a one take and need improvement.
   

A. Agree, but it is not a big problem.
B. Do not agree. Of course, when doing a presentation it is far easyer to use the keyboard for the simple fact that the moves are just there in a file and it will waste much more time to use the mouse trying to catch the moves.
C. Agree but it is not a big problem again.
D. Maybe but for me the contents are much more important! 7h is the way to go! 

The Chesscafe critic is out!
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Ziegler's new Chessbase French repertoire DVD
Reply #8 - 10/12/06 at 01:33:13
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Recently i got this DVD, have not watched all chapters yet. Ziegler's delivery is slightly ponderous (Martin is way better in this respect) but he makes up for this with interesting novel suggestions. I found myself not always agreeing with his analysis, but at least can see some reason for his optimistic view for Black (not always the case with say, Watson). Ziegler tends to prefer older, more traditional lines (e.g. 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e5 Nfd7 6. Bxe7 Qxe7 7. f4 0-0 instead of 7... a6, 3. Nd2 Nf6 main line 7. Ne2 with 11... 0-0 instead of 11... Qc7, even KIA 2. d3 is met by 1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 c5 followed by Nc6/Nf6/Be7/0-0), probably in these type of lines White tends to be more likely to have a stable, well-established +=, so these may not be everyone's taste. Overall a worthwhile purchase if you like these lines.
  
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