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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook (Read 26163 times)
IMJohnCox
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Re: Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook
Reply #11 - 11/21/06 at 10:49:45
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You mean a sort of test, like the theory test element in the driving test? Where you have to rock up to some test centre and defend this against a GM with, say, half an hour each on the clock? And then perhaps win Q v R against a computer (something Walter Browne famously failed to do after a fortnight's preparation), followed by holding R & B -v- R against the machine, and finally perhaps a written test featuring say 50 basic positions drawn from John Nunn's R&P -v- R book.

I must say I think that's an excellent notion which on the whole would make the world a better place, but I can assure you it would cut the number of IMs in the world by about 98%.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook
Reply #10 - 11/21/06 at 06:42:59
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I've gone through some of these endgames in Chessbase and have been shocked by how badly both sides tend to play this endgame even in the 2400 elo range.

I would have thought there would be some sort of basic requirement to know this and R v Q endings in order to get an IM title.  Well, if the best players in the world can embarrass themselves as they did a few years ago, I guess I can too.  Embarrassed
  
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Klick
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Re: Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook
Reply #9 - 11/16/06 at 22:01:06
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Based on your recommendation I've just as well ordered all three DVDs. I'm looking forward to seeing the material presented in a different format.
  

There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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JEH
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Re: Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook
Reply #8 - 11/13/06 at 11:52:21
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Klick wrote on 11/13/06 at 06:42:00:
That DVD sounds like an interesting resource JEH. Can you recommend it?


Well I liked it so much that I ordered the other two!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Klick
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Re: Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook
Reply #7 - 11/13/06 at 06:42:00
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That DVD sounds like an interesting resource JEH. Can you recommend it?
  

There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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JEH
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Re: Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook
Reply #6 - 11/12/06 at 22:24:54
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I watched Karsten Muller's Rook Endgame DVD last week (Bodycheck!) where he covers this ending,  progressing through the Rook ending building blocks required to understand it. He gives two defences too, calling one the Speelman defence involving with some corrections to the orignial analysis. I'm looking forward to Rook endings now  Cheesy

Well worth getting if you like this format for learning chess - und no furce in ze wurld can stup it!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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TalJechin
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Re: Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook
Reply #5 - 11/11/06 at 16:37:18
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Klick wrote on 11/11/06 at 13:03:00:
K+R+B vs. K? Sure you didn't mean K+R+B vs. K+R?

We discussed the 'headache-ending' about a year ago in this thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1119447510;start=all

I love the idea of That Extra Half, it would certainly be my favourite part of the site. Unfortunately, the idea of an endgame-section was suggested a year ago without receiving much response. Maybe it's time for another try?



Thanx for pointing out that fingerfehler, I've corrected it now!

An 'endgame only' section would probably be too limited - but maybe if it also contained other non-opening related stuff like important maneuvers in different structures, how to attack/defend different pawn structures, Ulf Andersson's defensive exchange sacs etc etc - it could certainly be worth considering! Though I suppose it may require a very good chess writer...  Undecided

Well, let's see if Kosten reads this and care to comment!  Smiley
  
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Klick
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Re: Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook
Reply #4 - 11/11/06 at 13:03:00
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K+R+B vs. K? Sure you didn't mean K+R+B vs. K+R?

We discussed the 'headache-ending' about a year ago in this thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1119447510;start=all

I love the idea of That Extra Half, it would certainly be my favourite part of the site. Unfortunately, the idea of an endgame-section was suggested a year ago without receiving much response. Maybe it's time for another try?
  

There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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TalJechin
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Re: Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook
Reply #3 - 11/11/06 at 10:22:20
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Thanks for the links, both seem quite useful!  Smiley


Quote:
'The win in the general case is too trivial to be worth demonstrating.........'.


Grin  That reminded me of another famous(?) saying, (Donner's?)

'K+B+N vs K, some say it's winning, but I've never seen it done in practice - so save yourself a lot of trouble and take the draw at once!'


Btw, maybe ChessPub could consider branching off a new section? 

Called e.g That Extra Half - dedicated to tricky endings one should have looked at but never got round to, different defensive ideas in the late middlegame / early ending e.g. the defensive exchange sac in its different forms,  etc
« Last Edit: 11/11/06 at 16:11:04 by TalJechin »  
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Klick
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Re: Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook
Reply #2 - 11/10/06 at 23:12:47
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Thanks to this site I finally got around to having a look at this ending. I must say that the explanations on this site was of more use to me as an introduction than what I found in 'Fundamental Chess Endings' and in Dvoretsky's endgame-manual. It does seem challenging to master the defence fully, but at least I now know some general principles and ideas. After practicing I think chances for drawing this ending will be very good should it arise in one of my games.

Quote:
Finally the positions where black needs his king on h7 always involve an h-pawn on the sixth rank.
Am I reading you right micawber that black should put his king on f7 when forced, unless white has his h-pawn on the 6th?

Interesting to read that Keres adviced white against advancing the h-pawn too soon. Any other similar advice for white or black?

Incidentally when looking into this I ran across an online 6-piece-tablebase server. That is quite an accomplishment to put online, as the storage-space required is immense! Until now I only knew of the Lokasoft tablebase server, but that is only 5 pieces. 6 pieces is a huge improvement! It can be found at: http://k4it.de/index.php?topic=egtb&lang=en

  

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micawber
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Re: Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook
Reply #1 - 09/06/06 at 16:16:47
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Agreed, the site is interesting, and it certainly illustrates that h+f endings are difficult!  Undecided
The conjecture on this site that Jonathan Speelman's analyses in BCE of the
Gligoric-Smyslov position is wrong, is correct. However this was known for a very long time.
Smyslov himself anotated this position in his book "Rook Ending" and pointed out that Kh7 instead of Kf7 would lose. He should know, after all he had reason to study this position very carefully!
However the 'original'analysis that black could have saved the position after Kh7 is wrong as well.
This will become immediately apparent after studying the analysis of the endgame Keres-Sokolsky
in either Keres Practical Chess Endings or in Smyslov's book.
Furthermore the drawing method in the position with both pawns on the sixth rank is also flawed.
It's easy to see how to transpose from this position to a line in a study by Maizalis (1939).
The study is given in BCE, though the annotations by Keres are far more clear.

Finally the positions where black needs his king on h7 always involve an h-pawn on the sixth rank.
Indeed Keres warned his readers to leave the h-pawn as long as possible on the fifth rank to make
sure it was difficult to capture! And Smyslov played his king from f7 by g8 to h7 AFTER white had played h6!.

As an afterthought:
It won't be long untill we no longer have to consult endgame manuals for this position. Soon quite a few people will just jam a six-men tablebase DVD in their computer. Unfortunately you can't jam the same DVD into you head (at least not with positive results). So for those who want to understand HOW to play these endgames a good endgame manual and some studying will always be necessary. Smiley

And finally: the website cited above might scare people away from BCE and de rook endgame survivor guide. But in fact both are excellent books in their own categorie. 
BCE has quite a lot of verbal explanation and 'rules' for an encyclopedia.
The rook endgame survivor guide has even more explanations, but of course is a monograph.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Rook, f + h pawns -v- rook
09/06/06 at 11:59:47
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Not sure I'm allowed to advertise rival sites, but it's not too much of a rival really.

Randomly googling and trying to find something else recently, I ran across across this site.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/PDJoseph/masteryinchess.htm

Very good analysis of this notorious ending building it up from basic principles. As fate would have it I came within an ace of reaching this ending (on the defending side) shortly after skimming this site and deciding to 'have a better look one day'. I was saved by a miracle from what I'm sure would have been the usual miserable loss once one reaches the inferior side of a tricky tablebase draw with little time left, but I'm really going to study it this time.....

In the same tournament I reached Q against B and Kt. I spent about ten moves flapping around like a fish on a wet pavement and demonstrating no idea at all of how to win it before my opponent obligingly blundered a piece. After the game I opened John Nunn's 'Secrets of Pawnless Endings' and read the following ego-boosting description of how to do it (I paraphrase) 'The win in the general case is too trivial to be worth demonstrating.........'.

  
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