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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is chess Fritzed out? (Read 12868 times)
Markovich
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #13 - 09/19/06 at 15:52:23
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Willempie wrote on 09/18/06 at 11:42:07:
Main "problem" with Bc5 is that it can be hard to fight for a win. If white is hellbend on a draw it is hard to avoid it, there are various drawing lines in the Greco-Moller and the Bd2-line isnt a guarantuee to stay awake either. I can imagine that when you play many open tournaments this wont be ideal against players rated 200 points below.

Plus of course there is the Evans, which scares some players.


In your view, is it any easier to win with the bishop on e7?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #12 - 09/18/06 at 18:31:06
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I gave it some serious thought after witnessing the Short - Hebden game and reviewing the theory, and came to the conclusion that in addition to the Two Knights defence I will need to add 3...Bc5 to my repertoire.

This seems like the best practical solution and doesn't require a daunting increase in workload.

Toppy Smiley
« Last Edit: 09/19/06 at 18:10:29 by TopNotch »  
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Willempie
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #11 - 09/18/06 at 15:55:04
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The Greco moller is where white sacs his e4-pawn eg from the 17th century:
Greco's Analysis (really fun)
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 Nxe4 8.0-0 Nxc3 9.bxc3 Bxc3 10.Qb3 Bxa1 11.Bxf7+ Kf8 12.Bg5 Ne7 13.Ne5 Bxd4 14.Bg6 d5 15.Qf3+ Bf5 16.Bxf5 Bxe5 17.Be6+ Bf6 18.Bxf6 Ke8 19.Bxg7  1-0

The Bd2 line indeed can lead to those positions you mention, but the problem is that in almost all cases white has an escape into a relatively harmless position in which a win against a -200 player will still be very hard work. Judging from your comment I suspect that Hebden is on the "lazy" side of players and doesnt like the prospect similar to this, where Fine can't beat his opponent. Similar games can be found by other GM's like Euwe and Unzicker:

[White "Factor,Samuel"]
[Black "Fine,Reuben"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Bxd2+ 8.Nbxd2 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Qb3 Nce7 11.0-0 0-0 12.Rfe1 c6 13.Ne4 Qb6 14.Qxb6 axb6 15.Nc3 Ra5 16.a4 Be6 17.Ng5 Bg4 18.b4 Ra7 19.Nxd5 Nxd5 20.a5 h6 21.Ne4 Rd8 22.f3 Bf5 23.Bxd5 Rxd5 24.axb6 Rxa1 25.Rxa1 Bxe4 26.fxe4 Rxd4 27.Ra7 Rxe4 28.b5 Rb4 29.Rxb7 Rxb5 30.Rb8+ Kh7 31.b7  1/2
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #10 - 09/18/06 at 13:34:53
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Really?

The Greco-Moller is that line where White gets a pawn to e6 and nice open lines for his rooks at the cost of being objectively lost, isn’t it? And the Bd2 line leads to some position where you can either trade queens with an equal but non-drawn ending, or put your king on e6 but the forced option to evacuate it and obtain an equal but non-drawn middlegame, I thought?

I am no expert as you can see. But at the very least Mark is exposing himself to this sort of thing; if …Bc5 is felt too drawish for use against punters then play both. Of course Mark is from the (increasingly threatened) Rublevsky school – prepare your openings until they’re fireproof, and then ruat caelum.

But then Mark plays 4…Nd4 against the Four Knights for goodness’ sake. And if you play Nxd4 and e5 he just sits there and tries to grind you out. I can’t believe t3…Bc5 is more drawish than that.

I don’t think Mark’s scared of the Evans!
  
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Willempie
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #9 - 09/18/06 at 11:42:07
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Main "problem" with Bc5 is that it can be hard to fight for a win. If white is hellbend on a draw it is hard to avoid it, there are various drawing lines in the Greco-Moller and the Bd2-line isnt a guarantuee to stay awake either. I can imagine that when you play many open tournaments this wont be ideal against players rated 200 points below.

Plus of course there is the Evans, which scares some players.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #8 - 09/18/06 at 11:23:43
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Ah, right you are.

Well I must say I suspect at the end of the day he’ll be proved right. In this day and age any serious player going 3 Bc4 is hoping for 3…Nf6 and is going to have a very good idea how he intends to keep the pawn. But against 3…Bc5 White has never, at any time during the last hundred years, been able to show anything at all. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Mark giving 3…Nf6 up: he must have had a sinking feeling when 3 Bc4 appeared.

It’s a curious move, 3…Nf6. To my eyes it gives White a fielder’s choice; if he fancies the pawn he can go for it, if he’s going to play 4 d3 anyway, well, Black can play with …Be7 instead of …Bc5, but is that such an achievement? I don’t see what 3….Nf6 gains.
  
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #7 - 09/18/06 at 11:12:11
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Hello,

Can find Short's comments about the two knights and some light annotation to game v Hebden below.

http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/event/cheu06/r10.html

I think it shows Hebden being too predictable against high class opposition, more than the autual opening choice but I am really too weak to comment.

Bye John S
  
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micawber
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #6 - 09/18/06 at 10:24:37
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@ John Cox,

Well perhaps the tablebases are a greater threat. I have your d4 book, where you (just joking) tell
us that for the evaluation of a certain position we'll have to wait for the thirteen-men tablebase  Wink
  
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #5 - 09/18/06 at 10:02:57
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Of course it isn’t. Nigel likes to come out with this sort of egotistical nonsense. Look at the position after 19…b6; he wanted to play this for a win??

What did he say about the Two Knights, then? He’d not prepared for that game with Fritz, obviously.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #4 - 09/17/06 at 16:50:22
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John Shaw seemed to be experimenting in this tournament as hitherto I have never seen him open with 1.d4.

Toppy Smiley
« Last Edit: 09/18/06 at 18:08:48 by TopNotch »  
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Willempie
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #3 - 09/17/06 at 13:52:37
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Quote:
Short didnt win the European Championship but the European union championship. I noticed a lot of european top players did not participate.
It more or less seemed an open british championship.

Yep a chappie I know (well he isnt a close acquaintance) Robin Swinkels ended with 6/10. Incidentally beating John Shaw in the process.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #2 - 09/17/06 at 11:21:10
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Short didnt win the European Championship but the European union championship. I noticed a lot of european top players did not participate.
It more or less seemed an open british championship.

I like Short's columns, they are always provocative and at least entertaining, but I don't take them to seriously. So I am not giving up the Two-Knight's just because Short has rubished it.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Is chess Fritzed out?
Reply #1 - 09/17/06 at 05:26:46
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What he said about the Two Knights Defence a round later was much worse, provided of course you are an advocate of the Two Knights Defence as I am.

Toppy Smiley
  
The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Is chess Fritzed out?
09/16/06 at 20:06:14
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I got this off the Chessbase website. It is a statement made by Nigel Short after winning the European Union Championship. It is an interesting statement. Is it fact or frustration on Short's part? What do you think?

'Unfortunately, nowadays, the sharper a line is, the more likely that it has been analysed out to a draw, by players using Fritz or other chess engines. So it turned out here. Short’s 19...b6 was a new move, but White can force a draw by repetition immediately, and after some thought, that is what Gordon did. 

Afterwards, a frustrated Short complained that chess has been “Fritzed out” and even predicted that Fischerrandom chess could take over within a few years.' 


« Last Edit: 09/17/06 at 19:03:34 by Buzz »  
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