Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bird's (Read 31400 times)
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Bird's
Reply #26 - 10/03/06 at 21:16:31
Post Tools
Dear Lev,

   I'm glad I finally got you to react, although you haven't contributed much to the discussion so far. Please feel free to express your thoughts on the lines discussed above.

                                                        Regards,
                                                           Hubert

P.S.  I did not state that 1. ...h6 was a wasted move. I said that it commited Black to playing ...g5. With the exception of the lines 2. e4 d5 and 2. d4 d5, Black must follow up with ...g5 to justify his first move. The soundness of the lines 2. Ktf3 g5 , 2. d3 g5 and 2. Ktc3 g5 are another matter, which we can discuss at more length in another thread or in this one later on.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Bird's
Reply #25 - 10/03/06 at 21:06:22
Post Tools
Dear BlackWidow,

   Your first variation must be covered by main-line Bird/Reversed Dutch  theory. As I am no expert in this field, I leave it to others to comment on this.
   I agree that the development of the K Knight must be best geared towards a Reversed Leningrad, but I'm sure Appleberry has something up his sleave versus the Classical and Stonewall as well. I'll transmit his thoughts when I next hear them. 

Regarding 1. f4 d6 ; 2. Ktf3 e5 ; 3. fe g5 ; 4. h3 de (4. ...Ktc6 is to be considered as well) ; 5. e4 , I consider Black to be at least equal, and probably somewhat better after for example 5. ...Bc5. Will look into this more deeply, but I'm sure it's not a critical test.

                                                                 Regards,
                                                                      Hubert
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1397
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Bird's
Reply #24 - 10/03/06 at 16:10:52
Post Tools
Uberdeker,

You don't have to get nasty and accuse me of hijacking the thread. You asked for my opinion, and I gave it to you. It is not my fault if you did not like what I said. Basically, you said that after 1 f4 the reply 1...h6 amounted to a wasted move, and I replied this was not so. I gave some sample variations to prove my point. 

To wit, after 1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 e5  you do have a promising version of the From Gambit. Other posts showed that the From Gambit can be very double-edged. It depends on who knows the theory better, White or Black.

1 f4 e5 2 fe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 d6 is one way to play the From Gambit. Another method is to hit with a timely ...g5, but here you better know the theory.

Regards,

Lev
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
Black_Widow
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 164
Location: Veenendaal
Joined: 03/04/05
Gender: Male
Re: Bird's
Reply #23 - 10/03/06 at 15:28:04
Post Tools
Uberdeker, you really made me think, so I did some analyzing during the weekend. 1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 g6 and then keeping the option open where the Knight goes, looks very interesting. Against the Leningrad Bird I found the following interesting continuation:
1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 g6 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 Nd7 5. O-O e5 6. fxe5 Nxe5 7. Nxe5 Bxe5 8.
d4 Bg7 9. Nc3 c6
However against the I-Z Bird, I could not find convincing variations with Nh6. It also does not have a good reputation, but that is maybe not correct. For sure you will have an opinion here.

The following I find interesting as an answer to 1 ... d6. 
1. f4 d6 2. Nf3 e5 3. fxe5 g5 4. h3 dxe5 5. e4 and I think white is fine here. Some remarks?

1. f4 d6 2. d4 e5 looks like a promissing gambit for Black. I am not fond on playing gambits, but this one I believe for Black.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
laughingcow
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I will win

Posts: 10
Joined: 09/23/06
Re: Bird's
Reply #22 - 10/01/06 at 17:48:53
Post Tools
Sorry Uberdecker, I god a bit confused and thought it was 1 e4 and not f4!  Shocked
  

I will win.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Bird's
Reply #21 - 10/01/06 at 14:06:41
Post Tools
Dear Lev,

 I was aware from previous posts of your singular egocentricity, but this is just too much. The point of fora such as these is to discuss matters with people who share the same interests. But obviously, you are only interested in spouting obscenely self-promoting monologues.
If you had had the decency of reading the posts which preceded yours, you would be aware of the fact that I was not asking your opinion on your own gambit - as we all know how highly you regard the junk that you have developped- but on 1. f4 d6 ; 2. Ktf3 e5.
But I have been generous (naïve?) enough to give you my views on 1. f4 h6. I have pointed out that both 2. d3 and 2. Ktc3 g5 ; 3. d4 (which you have once again chosen to ignore) are very promising for White. 
I have also stated that the only satisfactory answer to 2. e4 is 2. ...d5! Indeed this is actually better for Black. Now you post a whole string of different recommendations, each one more dubious than the next.
After  2. ...g5 ; 3. d4 White is close to winning.  2. ...c6, 2. ...g6 and other moves just make the ...h6 tempo useless at best.
[b]This is the last time I am repeating myself. We can go back to 1. ...h6"!" when we have finished discussing 2. ...d6[/b]
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1397
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Bird's
Reply #20 - 09/30/06 at 23:20:24
Post Tools
Well, after 1 f4 h6 2 e4 there are several options.

First, if you feel like being adventurous, then try 2...g5!? leading to the Grob. I believe this is similar to Nunn-Basman game given in the book "The Killer Grob" by IM Michael Basman of England.

Secondly, you can try 2...c6 aiming for a Caro-Kann in which the g5-square is covered. The point being, that the pinning maneuver with the White Bishop is no longer possible.

Third, you can aim for a sort of Pirc Defense after 2...g6, 3...Bg7 . There are lines where Black plays ...00 - Kh7, protecting the h6-pawn.

Fourth, you can try Castling Queenside and attacking on the Kingside if opportunity presents itself. In these lines, 1...h6 is a good preparatory move.

You asked some ideas, and I gave you them.

Additionally, chessbase.de has several games with 1 f4 h6 .

Interestingly, the sole 1 f4 h6 2 Nf3 g5 game listed there was played on my birthday, January 13 ! That very day, I was in New York City, playing in a Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Thematic tournament I arranged!
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Bird's
Reply #19 - 09/30/06 at 18:57:58
Post Tools
Dear Laughingcow,

 1. f4 h6 ; 2. e4 d5 ; 3. d4 de is certainly no improvement on the BDG! Black's e-pawn can no longer be dissolved with -f3. And now it's passed...
3. ed Qxd5 ; 4. c4 creates yet more holes in White's position, quite apart from the fact that it hangs a pawn to 4. ...Qe4+.
Please cf. reply #10 for more details. The only difference with 1. f4 d6 ; 2. e4 d5 is that black's pawn is on -h7 in those lines. It's no great help to have it on -h6, but it's not really detrimental either - the fact that ...Kth6 is no longer available after 3. e5 is no big deal.
Anyway, Lev must be happy. His hijack is succeding. I was the first to put forth a gambit line in this thread and I feel I have the right to be refuted before him!

                                                               Regards,
                                                                  Hubert
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
laughingcow
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I will win

Posts: 10
Joined: 09/23/06
Re: Bird's
Reply #18 - 09/30/06 at 18:13:33
Post Tools
Quote:
P.S. Laughingcow, I quickly modified that post after sending it. 2. ...d5 is good for Black


The first option that comes to mind is to ignore the move and carry on developing making a good version of the Blackma-Diemer (1 d4 d5 2 e4!?).  Also if you just do 2 exd5 Qxd5 3. c4 is that not just good for White?
  

I will win.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Bird's
Reply #17 - 09/30/06 at 17:43:40
Post Tools
Dear Lev,

2. d3 is certainly not "chickening out". It seems to be the best way to accept the gambit. Furthermore, you will never reach "mainline continuations" following 1. ...h6
In your lines A) and C) the move ...h6 is little more than a wasted tempo. In line B) Black's compensation is subject to serious doubt. I will be happy to discuss these issues as well as the line 2. Ktc3!? g5 ; 3. d4 which you have chosen to ignore, once you have given your opinion on 1. ...d6/2. ...e5 and other subjects relevant to this thread. For the moment you have hijacked it long enough.

                                                                 Regards,
                                                                       Hubert

P.S. Laughingcow, I quickly modified that post after sending it. 2. ...d5 is good for Black

                                                       
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
laughingcow
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I will win

Posts: 10
Joined: 09/23/06
Re: Bird's
Reply #16 - 09/30/06 at 17:25:21
Post Tools
What if the continuation Uberdecker gave is played...

1 f4 h6 2 e4
  

I will win.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1397
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Bird's
Reply #15 - 09/30/06 at 17:05:14
Post Tools
Hmmm... I have some games with 1 f4 h6 2 d3 g5 3 fg hg 4 Bg5 in my collection. In response to your
inquiry I point out the following:

After 1 f4 h6 2 d3 Black can:

A) Play 2...d5, avoiding the 2...g5 line altogether. Perhaps the ...g5 line can be delayed for later in the game.

B) Still play 2...g5, where after 3 fg play divides:

  B1. 3...d5 with a later ...hg5 

  B2. 3...hg  4 Bg5 Bh6

C) Play something other than 2...d5 or 2...g5 . For example, 2...b6, 2...d6, 2...Nc6 or even 2...Nf6

You should know that 1...h6 is both a provocative and a waiting move. Thus, if White plays 2 Nf3, then you can play 2...g5 and after 3 fg5 hg5 Black has open lines for attack. But if White chickens out with 2 d3, then Black can switch to more mainline continuations.

Regards,

Lev 
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
laughingcow
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I will win

Posts: 10
Joined: 09/23/06
Re: Bird's
Reply #14 - 09/30/06 at 10:42:31
Post Tools
I think the same as Uberdecker personally
  

I will win.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Bird's
Reply #13 - 09/30/06 at 10:39:50
Post Tools
Dear Lev,

  Instead of promoting the same old unsound lines post after post, why not give your expert opinion on the subject at hand? I very rarely play gambits this early in the opening and welcome the thoughts of those who do so on a regular basis, especially since our respective lines have this in common : they attempt to improve on existing ones.
  In return, I will give my opinion on your variation : 1. f4 h6 ; 2. Ktf3 g5 ; 3. fg hg ; 4. Ktxg5 gives Black some positional compensation in the form of open lines. It is however much more speculative than 1. ...d6/2. ...e5 in that Black lacks concrete targets and has also weakened his own structure to some extent.
  But a better way to accept the pawn is 2. d3 g5 ; 3. fg hg ; 4. Bxg5 when I wonder who has the "lead in development".
  By the way, 2. e4 has previously been advocated on this forum as the right way to deal with your conception. You have then insisted on 2. ...g5, when 3. d4 gf ; 4. Bxf4 leaves with White an overwhelming position, but simply 2. ...d5 (analogous to 1. f4 d6 ; 2. e4 d5) gives Black the better game.
 Likewise, the rash 2. d4 is met by 2. ...d5, but an attractive alternative is 2. Ktc3!? g5 ; 3. d4, again with a very promising game for White.  

                 Regards,
                              Hubert
« Last Edit: 09/30/06 at 16:36:16 by Uberdecker »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1397
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Bird's
Reply #12 - 09/30/06 at 04:40:08
Post Tools
You can try defeating the Bird Opening with 1 f4 g5 (Hobbs Gambit) and 1 f4 h6!  2 Nf3 g5!  3 fg5 hxg5, the Hobbs-Zilbermints Gambit.

For reference, the Hobbs Gambit is 1 f4 g5  2 fg5 and now if 2...h6  3 g6 is strong.  Therefore,  in order to prevent that, the Hobbs-Zilbermints Gambit  was invented.

1 f4 h6!  2 Nf3 g5  3 fg5  hxg5  and now the line 3 g6 by White has been prevented. Black has open files, a lead in development, and good attacking chances for the pawn. More to the point, White is out of the "book" and has to think for himself.
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo