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laughingcow
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Re: Bird's
Reply #41 - 11/24/06 at 19:09:11
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Thanks all of your help, I really appreciate all of it. Wink
  

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Re: Bird's
Reply #40 - 11/21/06 at 21:49:03
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I don't think you can accuse Black, though, of not playing chess from move one if he meets 1 f4 with 1...d6 ! Your lines all seem very plausible and it's certainly easy for both sides to make some overly-ambitious moves early on.
IMO what this line needs is less talk and more action. It's time to see more tests of 1 f4 d6 !
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #39 - 11/21/06 at 20:41:40
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Quote:
[...]Black usually goes 3 e4 Nf6, intending 4 Nc3 e6 with a solid set-up for B. Indeed I suspect this is an improved Wade's for B; f2-f4 isn't such a useful gain for W.

Maybe White should not play the lines Black intends to play ?! 

After 1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4 3 e4 Nf6 White has 
more and maybe better options than 4 Nc3!? .
White can strive for positions as after 
a) 4 d3 e6 5 Be2 d5 6 Ng5 Bxe2 7 Qxe2
   (and, just to show that Black can go 
    wrong with natural looking moves, too,
    you should notice 7...c5? 8 e5 Nfd7 9 f5!)
b) 4 h3 Bxf3 5 Qxf3 e6 6 g4!?
c) 4 c3 e6 5 Na3?! d5 6 e5 Nfd7 7 Nc2 c5 8 d3

I have not analyzed these lines deeply or carefully
what is also not easy if you analyze into the unknown
without significant games. These are just possibilities.
Positions are more or less unclear, the better player
should outplay his opponent. Maybe the flexible 
black position looks easier to play. And White takes
higher risks: one mistake and his position may be 
positional much worse, while black might be only
slightly worse after one mistake. But all this should
not worry White as he plays chess from move 1 on!
And if he deals correctly with the demands of the
positions, he may be rewarded as in the Chech Pirc
or as in the Alekhine Flohr variation: in the end the
white space advantage, the bishop pair or active
rooks might prove to be stronger than good knight
outposts or a flexible pawn structure ?!

tracke  Smiley
  
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IMRichardPalliser
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Re: Bird's
Reply #38 - 11/20/06 at 17:52:00
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Good point  Wink Was clearly getting my lines confused. Perhaps this is why Black usually goes 3 e4 Nf6, intending 4 Nc3 e6 with a solid set-up for B. Indeed I suspect this is an improved Wade's for B; f2-f4 isn't such a useful gain for W.
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #37 - 11/20/06 at 13:34:28
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Excepted that after 1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4 3 e4 d5!? 4.h3 Bxf3 5 Qxf3 there is no knight on c3  Roll Eyes, so 5...d4?! allows 6.Bc4, and d3, 0-0, f5, ... with a good advantage for white
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #36 - 11/19/06 at 16:51:04
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Yes; 4 h3 (after 1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4 3 e4 d5!?) is possibly critical, but then I wonder if Black might play 4...Bxf3 5 Qxf3 d4!?; one idea being to meet 6 Ne2 (6 Nb1!?) with 6...e5 reaching yet another interesting but totally unexplored position!
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #35 - 11/16/06 at 16:04:01
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1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 e5!? certainly looks pretty interesting. Do I recall Taylor then, albeit via a different move order, giving some coverage of 3 fxe5 dxe5 4 Nc3? 
From a lazy and practical point of view (I rarely seem to face 1 f4) I guess I may, though, stick to 2...Bg4 when 3 e4 d5!? and if 4 exd5, then 4...Qxd5, is an idea I wondered about (but only in passing) while writing about the Bird's in 'Beating Unusual Chess Openings'.



But after 1.f4 d6  2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e4 d5 can't white just play 4.h3 and :
* 4...dxe4  5.hxg4 exf3  6.Qxf3 c6 seems to be good for white (bishop pair and good attacking prospects with g5)
* 4...Bxf3  5.Qxf3 dxe4  6.Qb3 Qc8 (maybe 7...e6!?) 7.Bc4 Nh6  8.Nc3 and white is also fine

What do you think about this ?
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #34 - 11/16/06 at 12:22:15
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1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 e5!? certainly looks pretty interesting. Do I recall Taylor then, albeit via a different move order, giving some coverage of 3 fxe5 dxe5 4 Nc3? 
From a lazy and practical point of view (I rarely seem to face 1 f4) I guess I may, though, stick to 2...Bg4 when 3 e4 d5!? and if 4 exd5, then 4...Qxd5, is an idea I wondered about (but only in passing) while writing about the Bird's in 'Beating Unusual Chess Openings'.
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #33 - 11/11/06 at 18:36:42
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Hi everybody, the discussions about the following variation were very interesting, so I tried to analyse it deeply:

1.f4 d6  2.Nf3 e5  3.fxe5 g5?!

First of all, let’s have a look at what happens in the more logical variation:
4.exd6 g4  5.dxc7 Qxc7  6.Nd4 Bd6
As you said, Black will regain one pawn by force, but is it enough ? I have in my database one blitz game from GM Danielsen with this variation.
7.e4 Bxh2 8.Bb5+! Nc6  9.d3 Bg3+  10.Kf1
It is the critical position. I think that white is clearly better but should not allow black to open the position.
10…Ne7  11.Nc3 Bd7  12.Nde2 Bd6
In this position, Danielsen played 13.d4 0-0-0  14.Bg5 and won, but all was not so easy 14…f6  15.Bxf6? (15.Bh6) 16…Rhf8 with an unclear game. I prefer 13.Bg5 f6!? (13…0-0-0?! 14.Bf6 Rhg8  15.Rxh7, +-; 13…f5 14.d4 fxe4  15.Nxe4 with a strong position for white)  14.Bh6. In think that white is clearly better here but black has some counterplay. So maybe it is not what you would like to play with white.

But what happens if white doesn’t take the second pawn:
4.exd6 g4  5.Ne5. After 5…Bxd6 d4, we just transposed in 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6  3.exd6 Bxd6  4.Nf3 g5  5.d4 g4  6.Ne5, a well known position often considered as equal in theory, but easy to play with white. After 5…Qxd6  6.d4 Bg7  7.Nc3 Bxe5 8.dxe5 Qxe5  9.Qd5! white is better. And last, after 5…cxd6  6.Nc4 my feeling is that white is better but it remains to be explored.

So I think that white is fine in these two variations, let s just have a look on what happens if white doesn’t try to be one pawn up.
4.h3!? dxe5  5.e4 g4  6.hxg4  Bxg4. You think that Black is at least equal but in my opinion White is just fine. 7.Bc4 Nc6  8.d3 Bc5  9.c3 Nf6  10.b4. We reached some positions similar to the declined From’s gambit 1.f4 e5  2.fxe5 d6  3.Nf3 dxe5  4.Bc4. The difference is that the pawn g7 is missing for black and h2 for white. In my point of view, it is more problematic for Black since they often castle short in this variation. Maybe I am wrong, but I really like white here. I have one game in my database with this opening : 10…Bb6  11.b5 Na5  12.Bxf7+ Kxf7  13.Nxe5+ Ke8  14.Nxg4 Qd6  15.e5, 1-0 (N-DeFirmian, Bernie, blitz ICC). The quality of this game is of course not very high, but it illustrates well the problems black can have.

4.d4 g4 5.Ng5 Nc6 6.exd6  transposes in  1.f4 e5  2.fxe5 Nc6  3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 g4  5.Ng5 d5  6.exd6

4.e4!? g4  5.Bc4 is an interesting gambit for the adventurous players: 5…gxf3 6.Qxf3 Be6  7.Bxe6 fxe6  8.0-0 Ne7! is a nice move giving certainly the advantage to black  9.Qf7+ Kd7 10.cxd6 cxd6  11.Rf6 Qb6+, black can develop thanks to this queen check. So maybe white can try 8.Rf1! Ne7  9.Qf7+ Kd7  10.cxd6 cxd6  11.Rf6 the game is maybe unclear, but white had the complications they wanted.  6…Nh6 is considered to be a better try, 7.0-0 Qe7  8.cxd6 cxd6  9.Nc3 is still difficult to evaluate.


***********


As a conclusion of 1.f4 d6  2.Cf3 e5  3.fxe5 g5?! I have the feeling that white is better in most of the variations, but as a Bird player maybe I looked more at good moves for white than for black. I d like to know what you think about these variations. But anyway, I consider this move order as dubious since white can choose easily a position he likes to play (positional with 4.h3, classical with 4.exd6 g4  5.Ne5, sacrifice with 4.e4!? g4  5.Bc4, or to defend with one pawn up with 4.exd6 g4  5.dxc7 Qxc7)


« Last Edit: 11/12/06 at 17:54:01 by le_gars »  
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tracke
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Re: Bird's
Reply #32 - 10/19/06 at 19:53:17
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Sorry, I have not much time for a detailed analysis and so I can only give some of my thoughts.

1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 g5: 
I didnīt look much at the piece sacrifice 4.e4, your 6...Be6 7.Bxe6 fxe6 8.0-0 Ne7 looks interesting. And strong, Inf 1/2 mentioned only "8...Qe7 9.exd6 cxd6 10.Qc3!+-". 8...Ne7 9.d4?! might be a try for further complications, Iīm not sure about it.
I dealed more with 4.d3 g4 5.Bg5 Qd7 6.Nfd2 dxe5 7.e4 . When I first looked on this position (long before your post) I wondered how Oleinikov (who recommends this for White in his Chessbase CD) could like this,  7...Bc5 and Black should be fine. But when I took second look I agreed with Oleinikov that White is at least okay, maybe preferable (Oleinikov gives 7...Bc5 8.Nc3 ..... +=). In fact Bc5 doesnīt create dangerous threats and will be hunted by the white knights. These Knights will attack e5 and Black shouldnīt allow Nb1-c3-d5. I fact Bg5(/Bh4) is more dangerous than Bc5 and Black is well advised to exchange it. But then Blackīs weaknesses on the kingside might begin to tell?! - Itīs not easy to analyse this into the blue and Iīm not inclined to do so, but I prefer White. Thereīs a master game Smirnov-Novitzkij (Minsk2001, both~2400!) with 6.Nh4 h6 7.Bf4 Qe7 8.Bg3 dxe5 and a white win after many complications.

1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 dxe5 4.Nxe5 Nc6:
I had to realize that 5.Nf3 g5 is just awful for White. Obviously White has no other choice than 5.Nxc6 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qe4 7.Rg1 Qxc6. Maybe now 8.e3!? But is this really good for Black, does he have enough compensation?! Please notice that the position after 4.Nxe5 has occured many, many times in cc chess and no black player tried 4...Nc6 (only the usual 4...Bd6 and some 4...Nd7 tryouts.

1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e4 e6:
I donīt know if I would play 4.h3 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 d5 6.d3 or 4.Be2, I had no idea about this before your last post. I do not play 1.f4 (and 1.b3 and 1.g3 ...) to lure the black player into some wellprepared sidevariations of some marvellous subvariations. I play such first moves to avoid theory and will decide problems over the board only at the board. Okay, for some very sharp lines you have to prepare in any opening (for example KG or Fromīs Gambit for 1.f4). But for such positions as after 1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e4 e6 I donīt care what to do before exactly that position happens to arrive on my board!

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #31 - 10/19/06 at 10:28:06
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[quote author=tracke link=1159040122/15#29 date=1160998701]2.Nf3 should be answered by 2...e5 as after 2...Bg4 3.e4! looks nice for white.[/quote]

Although my own choice is 2. ...e5, the Deferred From is only one of the various possible interpretations of the move 1. ...d6. 2. ...Ktf6 and 2. ...g6 are of course perfectly viable. 1. ...c5 is playable, albeit a slight concession in the GPA and other moves exist as well.
As for 2. ...Bg4 ; 3. e4, perhaps White can prove a slight edge, but after 3. ...e6 ; 4. h3 Bxf3 ; 5. Qxf3 d5 , in the variations 6. ed and 6. Ktc3 I'm sure White would prefer to have moved his d-pawn rather than his f-pawn (as in 1. d4 d6 ; 2. Ktf3 Bg4 ; 3. e4 e6) and 6. e5 is evidently not terrifying either. That leaves 6. d3!? Is this Tracke's idea?
Perhaps 3. e3 is more flexible, intending b3, Bb2, Be2 (or Bb5 if possible), 0-0, Qe1, Qh5 and answering ...Bxf3 with Rxf3 if possible.

I'm certainly no expert of the Bird, so correct me if there's something I do not grasp here.
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #30 - 10/19/06 at 10:10:02
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Dear Tracke,

 Thank you for your input. You raise some very pertinent and interesting points.
But I am a bit perplexed by your harsh punctuation of the move (1. f4 d6 ; 2. Ktf3 e5 ; 3. fe) 3. ...g5 ("?!"). Since the lines that you yourself provide lead to equal or unclear positions, does this imply that you consider that Black should be clearly better after 1. ...d6(!) ?! 

Although I never looked it up, I did assume there was some existing theory of this line, due to the move-order 1. f4 e5 ; 2. fe d6 ; 3. Ktf3 g5. In the thread "From Gambit : Current Opinion", our friend Self-Slayer has already mentioned the possibility of 4. e4 g4 ; 5. Bc4!? gf ; 6. Qxf3. And, as often, I was guilty of dismissing it without providing analysis. This is a very romantic approach, and fully in the spirit of the King's Gambit!  It deserves to be respected, but I still don't fully trust it. For example, have you considered the natural 6. ...Be6 rather than awkward Knight or Queen moves ? In the position arising from 7. Bxe6 fe ; 8. 0-0 Kte7 I believe the extra material to outweigh the compensation. Deeper analysis is required of course.

As regards 4. d3 g4 ; 5. Bg5 Qd7 ; 6. Ktd2 de ; 7. e4 , I agree with your description of the Kingside as a "positional mess" for both players. However, Black has more open lines than White, he doesn't have a Bad Bishop comparable to the Bf1, and although he has some maneuvering to do before managing to castle Queenside, in my opinion he is slightly better after for example 7. ...Bc5.

I am convinced that the critical test of this Deferred From still lies in the acceptance of the double-gambit, although I admit that to the naked eye, it looks very frightening for White! 
 
I don't know why you thought that I have a book out. I don't even have much analysis for the moment, but by working together here in the ChessPub, I think we can get somewhere.

Now for your contribution to the Black side! :

I really like your suggestion 3. ...de ; 4. Ktxe5 Ktc6!? ; 5. Ktf3 (5. Ktxc6 Qh4+ ; 6. g3 Qe4 ; 7. Rg1 Qxc6 : nifty!). Now even more to the point than 5. ...Bg4 or 5. ...Ktf6 is 5. ...g5 when if White goes for the standard main-line From treatment 6. g3 g4 ; 7. Kth4 Be7 ; 8. Ktg2 h5, Black finds himself a tempo up (...Ktc6) on the line 1. ...e5 ; 2. fe d6 ; 3. ed Bxd6 ; 4. Ktf3 g5 ; 5. g3 g4 ; 6. Kth4 Be7 ; 7. Ktg2 h5.
I must thank you for this. If 3. ...g5 does in fact not hold up to deeper analysis, this should be Black's next choice, rather than the transposition to the regular From, which is supposed be unfavorable for Black according to the latest expert views. Do you disagree?

And finally, on a self-critical note :

[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159040122/0#10 date=1159445285]
- 2. other move allows Black to play ...e5 "free of charge"[/quote]

I was referring to alternatives to 2. Ktf3 , 2. e4 and 2. d4, but this is not entirely correct. Two other cases should be investigated separately (the above statement applies to 2. b3 and others).

- 2. d3 ("nothing" as you phrase it) e5 (2. ...Ktf6 and 2. ...g6 are reliable alternatives of course) ; 3. e4 Ktf6 ; 4. Ktf3 Ktc6 (or 4. ...Ktbd7) ; 5. Be2 Be7 ; 6. 0-0 0-0 followed by ...Re8 , ...Bf8 and ...d5 is indeed more or less equal although there is plenty to play for.

- 2. Ktc3 This on the other hand is an important move, and should be considered by all those K's Gambiteers who are angling for a Bishop's Gambit (such as Dragonslayer and yourself) and do not trust their chances in the Fischer Defence (I don't blame them).

We do not have to dwell on 2. ...e5?! ; 3. e4 ef ; 4. Bc4 of course.   

Black can offer transpositions to a Ktc3 Modern with 2. ...g6 or to Pirc/Czech/Lion/UDKP/Mestrovic Defences (as well as the line 3. e4 d5!?) with 2. ...Ktf6 (2. ...c5 ; 3. e4 is good version of the Sicilian GPA for White), when if White refuses, 3. Ktf3 e5!? (3. ...g6/3. ...c6/3. ...Ktbd7/3. ...a6/3. ...Ktc6/3. ...c5) ; 4. e4 (4. fe Ktg4 is also highly interesting) ef is a Fischer Defence (1. e4 e5 ; 2. f4 ef ; 3. Ktf3 d6) with 4. Ktc3 Ktf6 included. The "Schallop treatment" 5. d4 Kth5 requires testing. 
 
My own preferred choice is 2. ...a6, giving rise after 3. e4 (3. g3?! e5!) b5 ; 4. d4 Bb7 ; 5. Bd3 Ktd7 ; 6. Ktf3 c5 to a form of UD KP Defence (1. e4 d6 ; 2. d4 Ktf6 ; 3. Ktc3 a6) in which White's dangerous e5 advances are no longer a threat. Of course, White can keep the game in Bird territory with alternatives on moves 3 and 4, but they hardly seem critical.

Well, that's it for now. Looking forward to discussing this junk some more soon.

                                                                 Regards,
                                                                       UD
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #29 - 10/16/06 at 11:38:21
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Hello Uberdeker,

in my opinion your Deferred Fromīs Gambit seems to be a very strong answer to 1f4.
Not in its independent lines but more as a clever order to reach a traditional Froms
Gambit  while avoiding the feared Kingīs Bishop Gambit . 
Iīm talking about:  1.f4 d6 2.Nf3! e5! 3.fxe5! dxe5! 4.Nxe5! Bd6! 5.Nf3! unclear

Some remarks (from White's point of view):
(a) After 1.f4 d6 obviously 2.Nf3 is white's strongest move. 2.d3= is nothing and 2.e4
    is comfortable for Black after both 2...Nf6 or 2...d5(!)
(b) 2.Nf3 should be answered by 2...e5 as after 2...Bg4 3.e4! looks nice for white.
(c) I donīt want to delve into the secrets of KG Fischer Defence as I am no specialist for that.
    In my opinion (just an opinion) itīs very unclear and White shouldnīt be worse. But for
    practical reasons many white Bird players (like me) would like to avoid a sharp theoretical
    argument with an experienced and booked black player. 
    (Btw, in KAISSIBER issue #25 thereīs some interesting stuff about 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5?!)
    As 3.d3 is nothing White should play 3.fxe5.
(d) After 1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 Black can (and should?!) play 3...dxe5. 3...Bg4 4.exd6 Bxd6 is another
    transposition to From lines, but this should be better for White. The same for 3...Nc6 4.exd6.
(e) After 3.fxe5 dxe5 White has no real alternative to 4.Nxe5 Bd6 5.Nf3 with a usual From. In fact it is
    Black who has additional possibilities with 4.Nxe5 Nc6!? 5.Nf3! and now 5...Bg4 or 5...Nf6 instead
    of the transpositional 5...Bd6 ?!

In correspondence chess I have no problems on the white side of an accepted From (and thereīs even
a white win of mine in Taylorīs book!). But otb itīs no fun to play these lines with White and I have
always preferred 2.e4 (and of course 2...exf4 3.Bc4!).
So MY problem is that I have to prepare sharp&theoretical lines of either KG Fischer or From main lines.

  * * *

And there is, of course, your independent line 1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 g5?!

Thereīs not much material on this, but both Oleinikov (Chessbase-CD, chapter "Declined From")
and V.Ivanov (A02 Bird, small booklet from Russia Chess House) recommend (i) the piece sacrifice 4.e4 g4 5.Bc4
and (ii) the "safe" defence 4.d3 . I wonder why 4.h3 (?!?) is discussed and not these lines ...

(i) 4.e4 g4 5.Bc4 gxf3 6.Qxf3: According to Dunnington (without further variations in: Winning Unorthodox Openings) White has no sufficient compensation, but Dunnington cites Larsen (source?) that
White should have. White has two pawns for a knight (even good chances to get a third one) and a lasting initiative. And the black knights will find no secure and active places. Thereīs no immediate mate but White need not hurry. All my engines prefer White (material down!). I my opinion White has at least sufficient compensation. In the only important game (White lost) White could have improved 6...Nh6 7.0-0 Qe7 8.Nc3!? - In my opinion itīs on blackīs turn to show a reliable defence strategy.

(ii) 4.d3 g4 5.Bg5 and Black has a choice between 5...Be7 6.Bxe7 Nxe7 7.exd6 Qxd6 8.Nfd2 (unclear, maybe Black has sufficient compensation) and 5...Qd7 (equal material, but no black attack, the kingside is positionally a real mess for both players)

Uberdeker, I see no reason for White to avoid these lines. 
He isnīt much better but shoudnīt be worse.
Maybe you or your book has some improvements for Black?!

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #28 - 10/13/06 at 12:42:41
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So then they will have already one copy sold, thanks for the info.
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #27 - 10/12/06 at 15:46:41
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Just had a brief chat with Martin Appleberry. Apparently 1. ...Kth6 will the subject of a chapter in "Carpathian Warrior II" by Okhotnik and Lalic, soon to be released. They recommend to refrain from ...d5 against the "Ilyin Zhenevsky treatment".
  
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