Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bird's (Read 31387 times)
laughingcow
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Re: Bird's
Reply #41 - 11/24/06 at 19:09:11
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Thanks all of your help, I really appreciate all of it. Wink
  

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IMRichardPalliser
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Re: Bird's
Reply #40 - 11/21/06 at 21:49:03
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I don't think you can accuse Black, though, of not playing chess from move one if he meets 1 f4 with 1...d6 ! Your lines all seem very plausible and it's certainly easy for both sides to make some overly-ambitious moves early on.
IMO what this line needs is less talk and more action. It's time to see more tests of 1 f4 d6 !
  
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tracke
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Re: Bird's
Reply #39 - 11/21/06 at 20:41:40
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Quote:
[...]Black usually goes 3 e4 Nf6, intending 4 Nc3 e6 with a solid set-up for B. Indeed I suspect this is an improved Wade's for B; f2-f4 isn't such a useful gain for W.

Maybe White should not play the lines Black intends to play ?! 

After 1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4 3 e4 Nf6 White has 
more and maybe better options than 4 Nc3!? .
White can strive for positions as after 
a) 4 d3 e6 5 Be2 d5 6 Ng5 Bxe2 7 Qxe2
   (and, just to show that Black can go 
    wrong with natural looking moves, too,
    you should notice 7...c5? 8 e5 Nfd7 9 f5!)
b) 4 h3 Bxf3 5 Qxf3 e6 6 g4!?
c) 4 c3 e6 5 Na3?! d5 6 e5 Nfd7 7 Nc2 c5 8 d3

I have not analyzed these lines deeply or carefully
what is also not easy if you analyze into the unknown
without significant games. These are just possibilities.
Positions are more or less unclear, the better player
should outplay his opponent. Maybe the flexible 
black position looks easier to play. And White takes
higher risks: one mistake and his position may be 
positional much worse, while black might be only
slightly worse after one mistake. But all this should
not worry White as he plays chess from move 1 on!
And if he deals correctly with the demands of the
positions, he may be rewarded as in the Chech Pirc
or as in the Alekhine Flohr variation: in the end the
white space advantage, the bishop pair or active
rooks might prove to be stronger than good knight
outposts or a flexible pawn structure ?!

tracke  Smiley
  
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IMRichardPalliser
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Re: Bird's
Reply #38 - 11/20/06 at 17:52:00
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Good point  Wink Was clearly getting my lines confused. Perhaps this is why Black usually goes 3 e4 Nf6, intending 4 Nc3 e6 with a solid set-up for B. Indeed I suspect this is an improved Wade's for B; f2-f4 isn't such a useful gain for W.
  
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le_gars
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Re: Bird's
Reply #37 - 11/20/06 at 13:34:28
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Excepted that after 1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4 3 e4 d5!? 4.h3 Bxf3 5 Qxf3 there is no knight on c3  Roll Eyes, so 5...d4?! allows 6.Bc4, and d3, 0-0, f5, ... with a good advantage for white
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #36 - 11/19/06 at 16:51:04
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Yes; 4 h3 (after 1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4 3 e4 d5!?) is possibly critical, but then I wonder if Black might play 4...Bxf3 5 Qxf3 d4!?; one idea being to meet 6 Ne2 (6 Nb1!?) with 6...e5 reaching yet another interesting but totally unexplored position!
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #35 - 11/16/06 at 16:04:01
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1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 e5!? certainly looks pretty interesting. Do I recall Taylor then, albeit via a different move order, giving some coverage of 3 fxe5 dxe5 4 Nc3? 
From a lazy and practical point of view (I rarely seem to face 1 f4) I guess I may, though, stick to 2...Bg4 when 3 e4 d5!? and if 4 exd5, then 4...Qxd5, is an idea I wondered about (but only in passing) while writing about the Bird's in 'Beating Unusual Chess Openings'.



But after 1.f4 d6  2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e4 d5 can't white just play 4.h3 and :
* 4...dxe4  5.hxg4 exf3  6.Qxf3 c6 seems to be good for white (bishop pair and good attacking prospects with g5)
* 4...Bxf3  5.Qxf3 dxe4  6.Qb3 Qc8 (maybe 7...e6!?) 7.Bc4 Nh6  8.Nc3 and white is also fine

What do you think about this ?
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #34 - 11/16/06 at 12:22:15
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1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 e5!? certainly looks pretty interesting. Do I recall Taylor then, albeit via a different move order, giving some coverage of 3 fxe5 dxe5 4 Nc3? 
From a lazy and practical point of view (I rarely seem to face 1 f4) I guess I may, though, stick to 2...Bg4 when 3 e4 d5!? and if 4 exd5, then 4...Qxd5, is an idea I wondered about (but only in passing) while writing about the Bird's in 'Beating Unusual Chess Openings'.
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #33 - 11/11/06 at 18:36:42
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Hi everybody, the discussions about the following variation were very interesting, so I tried to analyse it deeply:

1.f4 d6  2.Nf3 e5  3.fxe5 g5?!

First of all, let’s have a look at what happens in the more logical variation:
4.exd6 g4  5.dxc7 Qxc7  6.Nd4 Bd6
As you said, Black will regain one pawn by force, but is it enough ? I have in my database one blitz game from GM Danielsen with this variation.
7.e4 Bxh2 8.Bb5+! Nc6  9.d3 Bg3+  10.Kf1
It is the critical position. I think that white is clearly better but should not allow black to open the position.
10…Ne7  11.Nc3 Bd7  12.Nde2 Bd6
In this position, Danielsen played 13.d4 0-0-0  14.Bg5 and won, but all was not so easy 14…f6  15.Bxf6? (15.Bh6) 16…Rhf8 with an unclear game. I prefer 13.Bg5 f6!? (13…0-0-0?! 14.Bf6 Rhg8  15.Rxh7, +-; 13…f5 14.d4 fxe4  15.Nxe4 with a strong position for white)  14.Bh6. In think that white is clearly better here but black has some counterplay. So maybe it is not what you would like to play with white.

But what happens if white doesn’t take the second pawn:
4.exd6 g4  5.Ne5. After 5…Bxd6 d4, we just transposed in 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6  3.exd6 Bxd6  4.Nf3 g5  5.d4 g4  6.Ne5, a well known position often considered as equal in theory, but easy to play with white. After 5…Qxd6  6.d4 Bg7  7.Nc3 Bxe5 8.dxe5 Qxe5  9.Qd5! white is better. And last, after 5…cxd6  6.Nc4 my feeling is that white is better but it remains to be explored.

So I think that white is fine in these two variations, let s just have a look on what happens if white doesn’t try to be one pawn up.
4.h3!? dxe5  5.e4 g4  6.hxg4  Bxg4. You think that Black is at least equal but in my opinion White is just fine. 7.Bc4 Nc6  8.d3 Bc5  9.c3 Nf6  10.b4. We reached some positions similar to the declined From’s gambit 1.f4 e5  2.fxe5 d6  3.Nf3 dxe5  4.Bc4. The difference is that the pawn g7 is missing for black and h2 for white. In my point of view, it is more problematic for Black since they often castle short in this variation. Maybe I am wrong, but I really like white here. I have one game in my database with this opening : 10…Bb6  11.b5 Na5  12.Bxf7+ Kxf7  13.Nxe5+ Ke8  14.Nxg4 Qd6  15.e5, 1-0 (N-DeFirmian, Bernie, blitz ICC). The quality of this game is of course not very high, but it illustrates well the problems black can have.

4.d4 g4 5.Ng5 Nc6 6.exd6  transposes in  1.f4 e5  2.fxe5 Nc6  3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 g4  5.Ng5 d5  6.exd6

4.e4!? g4  5.Bc4 is an interesting gambit for the adventurous players: 5…gxf3 6.Qxf3 Be6  7.Bxe6 fxe6  8.0-0 Ne7! is a nice move giving certainly the advantage to black  9.Qf7+ Kd7 10.cxd6 cxd6  11.Rf6 Qb6+, black can develop thanks to this queen check. So maybe white can try 8.Rf1! Ne7  9.Qf7+ Kd7  10.cxd6 cxd6  11.Rf6 the game is maybe unclear, but white had the complications they wanted.  6…Nh6 is considered to be a better try, 7.0-0 Qe7  8.cxd6 cxd6  9.Nc3 is still difficult to evaluate.


***********


As a conclusion of 1.f4 d6  2.Cf3 e5  3.fxe5 g5?! I have the feeling that white is better in most of the variations, but as a Bird player maybe I looked more at good moves for white than for black. I d like to know what you think about these variations. But anyway, I consider this move order as dubious since white can choose easily a position he likes to play (positional with 4.h3, classical with 4.exd6 g4  5.Ne5, sacrifice with 4.e4!? g4  5.Bc4, or to defend with one pawn up with 4.exd6 g4  5.dxc7 Qxc7)


« Last Edit: 11/12/06 at 17:54:01 by le_gars »  
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tracke
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Re: Bird's
Reply #32 - 10/19/06 at 19:53:17
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Sorry, I have not much time for a detailed analysis and so I can only give some of my thoughts.

1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 g5: 
I didn´t look much at the piece sacrifice 4.e4, your 6...Be6 7.Bxe6 fxe6 8.0-0 Ne7 looks interesting. And strong, Inf 1/2 mentioned only "8...Qe7 9.exd6 cxd6 10.Qc3!+-". 8...Ne7 9.d4?! might be a try for further complications, I´m not sure about it.
I dealed more with 4.d3 g4 5.Bg5 Qd7 6.Nfd2 dxe5 7.e4 . When I first looked on this position (long before your post) I wondered how Oleinikov (who recommends this for White in his Chessbase CD) could like this,  7...Bc5 and Black should be fine. But when I took second look I agreed with Oleinikov that White is at least okay, maybe preferable (Oleinikov gives 7...Bc5 8.Nc3 ..... +=). In fact Bc5 doesn´t create dangerous threats and will be hunted by the white knights. These Knights will attack e5 and Black shouldn´t allow Nb1-c3-d5. I fact Bg5(/Bh4) is more dangerous than Bc5 and Black is well advised to exchange it. But then Black´s weaknesses on the kingside might begin to tell?! - It´s not easy to analyse this into the blue and I´m not inclined to do so, but I prefer White. There´s a master game Smirnov-Novitzkij (Minsk2001, both~2400!) with 6.Nh4 h6 7.Bf4 Qe7 8.Bg3 dxe5 and a white win after many complications.

1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 dxe5 4.Nxe5 Nc6:
I had to realize that 5.Nf3 g5 is just awful for White. Obviously White has no other choice than 5.Nxc6 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qe4 7.Rg1 Qxc6. Maybe now 8.e3!? But is this really good for Black, does he have enough compensation?! Please notice that the position after 4.Nxe5 has occured many, many times in cc chess and no black player tried 4...Nc6 (only the usual 4...Bd6 and some 4...Nd7 tryouts.

1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e4 e6:
I don´t know if I would play 4.h3 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 d5 6.d3 or 4.Be2, I had no idea about this before your last post. I do not play 1.f4 (and 1.b3 and 1.g3 ...) to lure the black player into some wellprepared sidevariations of some marvellous subvariations. I play such first moves to avoid theory and will decide problems over the board only at the board. Okay, for some very sharp lines you have to prepare in any opening (for example KG or From´s Gambit for 1.f4). But for such positions as after 1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e4 e6 I don´t care what to do before exactly that position happens to arrive on my board!

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #31 - 10/19/06 at 10:28:06
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[quote author=tracke link=1159040122/15#29 date=1160998701]2.Nf3 should be answered by 2...e5 as after 2...Bg4 3.e4! looks nice for white.[/quote]

Although my own choice is 2. ...e5, the Deferred From is only one of the various possible interpretations of the move 1. ...d6. 2. ...Ktf6 and 2. ...g6 are of course perfectly viable. 1. ...c5 is playable, albeit a slight concession in the GPA and other moves exist as well.
As for 2. ...Bg4 ; 3. e4, perhaps White can prove a slight edge, but after 3. ...e6 ; 4. h3 Bxf3 ; 5. Qxf3 d5 , in the variations 6. ed and 6. Ktc3 I'm sure White would prefer to have moved his d-pawn rather than his f-pawn (as in 1. d4 d6 ; 2. Ktf3 Bg4 ; 3. e4 e6) and 6. e5 is evidently not terrifying either. That leaves 6. d3!? Is this Tracke's idea?
Perhaps 3. e3 is more flexible, intending b3, Bb2, Be2 (or Bb5 if possible), 0-0, Qe1, Qh5 and answering ...Bxf3 with Rxf3 if possible.

I'm certainly no expert of the Bird, so correct me if there's something I do not grasp here.
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #30 - 10/19/06 at 10:10:02
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Dear Tracke,

 Thank you for your input. You raise some very pertinent and interesting points.
But I am a bit perplexed by your harsh punctuation of the move (1. f4 d6 ; 2. Ktf3 e5 ; 3. fe) 3. ...g5 ("?!"). Since the lines that you yourself provide lead to equal or unclear positions, does this imply that you consider that Black should be clearly better after 1. ...d6(!) ?! 

Although I never looked it up, I did assume there was some existing theory of this line, due to the move-order 1. f4 e5 ; 2. fe d6 ; 3. Ktf3 g5. In the thread "From Gambit : Current Opinion", our friend Self-Slayer has already mentioned the possibility of 4. e4 g4 ; 5. Bc4!? gf ; 6. Qxf3. And, as often, I was guilty of dismissing it without providing analysis. This is a very romantic approach, and fully in the spirit of the King's Gambit!  It deserves to be respected, but I still don't fully trust it. For example, have you considered the natural 6. ...Be6 rather than awkward Knight or Queen moves ? In the position arising from 7. Bxe6 fe ; 8. 0-0 Kte7 I believe the extra material to outweigh the compensation. Deeper analysis is required of course.

As regards 4. d3 g4 ; 5. Bg5 Qd7 ; 6. Ktd2 de ; 7. e4 , I agree with your description of the Kingside as a "positional mess" for both players. However, Black has more open lines than White, he doesn't have a Bad Bishop comparable to the Bf1, and although he has some maneuvering to do before managing to castle Queenside, in my opinion he is slightly better after for example 7. ...Bc5.

I am convinced that the critical test of this Deferred From still lies in the acceptance of the double-gambit, although I admit that to the naked eye, it looks very frightening for White! 
 
I don't know why you thought that I have a book out. I don't even have much analysis for the moment, but by working together here in the ChessPub, I think we can get somewhere.

Now for your contribution to the Black side! :

I really like your suggestion 3. ...de ; 4. Ktxe5 Ktc6!? ; 5. Ktf3 (5. Ktxc6 Qh4+ ; 6. g3 Qe4 ; 7. Rg1 Qxc6 : nifty!). Now even more to the point than 5. ...Bg4 or 5. ...Ktf6 is 5. ...g5 when if White goes for the standard main-line From treatment 6. g3 g4 ; 7. Kth4 Be7 ; 8. Ktg2 h5, Black finds himself a tempo up (...Ktc6) on the line 1. ...e5 ; 2. fe d6 ; 3. ed Bxd6 ; 4. Ktf3 g5 ; 5. g3 g4 ; 6. Kth4 Be7 ; 7. Ktg2 h5.
I must thank you for this. If 3. ...g5 does in fact not hold up to deeper analysis, this should be Black's next choice, rather than the transposition to the regular From, which is supposed be unfavorable for Black according to the latest expert views. Do you disagree?

And finally, on a self-critical note :

[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159040122/0#10 date=1159445285]
- 2. other move allows Black to play ...e5 "free of charge"[/quote]

I was referring to alternatives to 2. Ktf3 , 2. e4 and 2. d4, but this is not entirely correct. Two other cases should be investigated separately (the above statement applies to 2. b3 and others).

- 2. d3 ("nothing" as you phrase it) e5 (2. ...Ktf6 and 2. ...g6 are reliable alternatives of course) ; 3. e4 Ktf6 ; 4. Ktf3 Ktc6 (or 4. ...Ktbd7) ; 5. Be2 Be7 ; 6. 0-0 0-0 followed by ...Re8 , ...Bf8 and ...d5 is indeed more or less equal although there is plenty to play for.

- 2. Ktc3 This on the other hand is an important move, and should be considered by all those K's Gambiteers who are angling for a Bishop's Gambit (such as Dragonslayer and yourself) and do not trust their chances in the Fischer Defence (I don't blame them).

We do not have to dwell on 2. ...e5?! ; 3. e4 ef ; 4. Bc4 of course.   

Black can offer transpositions to a Ktc3 Modern with 2. ...g6 or to Pirc/Czech/Lion/UDKP/Mestrovic Defences (as well as the line 3. e4 d5!?) with 2. ...Ktf6 (2. ...c5 ; 3. e4 is good version of the Sicilian GPA for White), when if White refuses, 3. Ktf3 e5!? (3. ...g6/3. ...c6/3. ...Ktbd7/3. ...a6/3. ...Ktc6/3. ...c5) ; 4. e4 (4. fe Ktg4 is also highly interesting) ef is a Fischer Defence (1. e4 e5 ; 2. f4 ef ; 3. Ktf3 d6) with 4. Ktc3 Ktf6 included. The "Schallop treatment" 5. d4 Kth5 requires testing. 
 
My own preferred choice is 2. ...a6, giving rise after 3. e4 (3. g3?! e5!) b5 ; 4. d4 Bb7 ; 5. Bd3 Ktd7 ; 6. Ktf3 c5 to a form of UD KP Defence (1. e4 d6 ; 2. d4 Ktf6 ; 3. Ktc3 a6) in which White's dangerous e5 advances are no longer a threat. Of course, White can keep the game in Bird territory with alternatives on moves 3 and 4, but they hardly seem critical.

Well, that's it for now. Looking forward to discussing this junk some more soon.

                                                                 Regards,
                                                                       UD
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #29 - 10/16/06 at 11:38:21
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Hello Uberdeker,

in my opinion your Deferred From´s Gambit seems to be a very strong answer to 1f4.
Not in its independent lines but more as a clever order to reach a traditional Froms
Gambit  while avoiding the feared King´s Bishop Gambit . 
I´m talking about:  1.f4 d6 2.Nf3! e5! 3.fxe5! dxe5! 4.Nxe5! Bd6! 5.Nf3! unclear

Some remarks (from White's point of view):
(a) After 1.f4 d6 obviously 2.Nf3 is white's strongest move. 2.d3= is nothing and 2.e4
    is comfortable for Black after both 2...Nf6 or 2...d5(!)
(b) 2.Nf3 should be answered by 2...e5 as after 2...Bg4 3.e4! looks nice for white.
(c) I don´t want to delve into the secrets of KG Fischer Defence as I am no specialist for that.
    In my opinion (just an opinion) it´s very unclear and White shouldn´t be worse. But for
    practical reasons many white Bird players (like me) would like to avoid a sharp theoretical
    argument with an experienced and booked black player. 
    (Btw, in KAISSIBER issue #25 there´s some interesting stuff about 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5?!)
    As 3.d3 is nothing White should play 3.fxe5.
(d) After 1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 Black can (and should?!) play 3...dxe5. 3...Bg4 4.exd6 Bxd6 is another
    transposition to From lines, but this should be better for White. The same for 3...Nc6 4.exd6.
(e) After 3.fxe5 dxe5 White has no real alternative to 4.Nxe5 Bd6 5.Nf3 with a usual From. In fact it is
    Black who has additional possibilities with 4.Nxe5 Nc6!? 5.Nf3! and now 5...Bg4 or 5...Nf6 instead
    of the transpositional 5...Bd6 ?!

In correspondence chess I have no problems on the white side of an accepted From (and there´s even
a white win of mine in Taylor´s book!). But otb it´s no fun to play these lines with White and I have
always preferred 2.e4 (and of course 2...exf4 3.Bc4!).
So MY problem is that I have to prepare sharp&theoretical lines of either KG Fischer or From main lines.

  * * *

And there is, of course, your independent line 1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 g5?!

There´s not much material on this, but both Oleinikov (Chessbase-CD, chapter "Declined From")
and V.Ivanov (A02 Bird, small booklet from Russia Chess House) recommend (i) the piece sacrifice 4.e4 g4 5.Bc4
and (ii) the "safe" defence 4.d3 . I wonder why 4.h3 (?!?) is discussed and not these lines ...

(i) 4.e4 g4 5.Bc4 gxf3 6.Qxf3: According to Dunnington (without further variations in: Winning Unorthodox Openings) White has no sufficient compensation, but Dunnington cites Larsen (source?) that
White should have. White has two pawns for a knight (even good chances to get a third one) and a lasting initiative. And the black knights will find no secure and active places. There´s no immediate mate but White need not hurry. All my engines prefer White (material down!). I my opinion White has at least sufficient compensation. In the only important game (White lost) White could have improved 6...Nh6 7.0-0 Qe7 8.Nc3!? - In my opinion it´s on black´s turn to show a reliable defence strategy.

(ii) 4.d3 g4 5.Bg5 and Black has a choice between 5...Be7 6.Bxe7 Nxe7 7.exd6 Qxd6 8.Nfd2 (unclear, maybe Black has sufficient compensation) and 5...Qd7 (equal material, but no black attack, the kingside is positionally a real mess for both players)

Uberdeker, I see no reason for White to avoid these lines. 
He isn´t much better but shoudn´t be worse.
Maybe you or your book has some improvements for Black?!

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #28 - 10/13/06 at 12:42:41
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So then they will have already one copy sold, thanks for the info.
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #27 - 10/12/06 at 15:46:41
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Just had a brief chat with Martin Appleberry. Apparently 1. ...Kth6 will the subject of a chapter in "Carpathian Warrior II" by Okhotnik and Lalic, soon to be released. They recommend to refrain from ...d5 against the "Ilyin Zhenevsky treatment".
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #26 - 10/03/06 at 21:16:31
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Dear Lev,

   I'm glad I finally got you to react, although you haven't contributed much to the discussion so far. Please feel free to express your thoughts on the lines discussed above.

                                                        Regards,
                                                           Hubert

P.S.  I did not state that 1. ...h6 was a wasted move. I said that it commited Black to playing ...g5. With the exception of the lines 2. e4 d5 and 2. d4 d5, Black must follow up with ...g5 to justify his first move. The soundness of the lines 2. Ktf3 g5 , 2. d3 g5 and 2. Ktc3 g5 are another matter, which we can discuss at more length in another thread or in this one later on.
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #25 - 10/03/06 at 21:06:22
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Dear BlackWidow,

   Your first variation must be covered by main-line Bird/Reversed Dutch  theory. As I am no expert in this field, I leave it to others to comment on this.
   I agree that the development of the K Knight must be best geared towards a Reversed Leningrad, but I'm sure Appleberry has something up his sleave versus the Classical and Stonewall as well. I'll transmit his thoughts when I next hear them. 

Regarding 1. f4 d6 ; 2. Ktf3 e5 ; 3. fe g5 ; 4. h3 de (4. ...Ktc6 is to be considered as well) ; 5. e4 , I consider Black to be at least equal, and probably somewhat better after for example 5. ...Bc5. Will look into this more deeply, but I'm sure it's not a critical test.

                                                                 Regards,
                                                                      Hubert
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #24 - 10/03/06 at 16:10:52
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Uberdeker,

You don't have to get nasty and accuse me of hijacking the thread. You asked for my opinion, and I gave it to you. It is not my fault if you did not like what I said. Basically, you said that after 1 f4 the reply 1...h6 amounted to a wasted move, and I replied this was not so. I gave some sample variations to prove my point. 

To wit, after 1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 e5  you do have a promising version of the From Gambit. Other posts showed that the From Gambit can be very double-edged. It depends on who knows the theory better, White or Black.

1 f4 e5 2 fe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 d6 is one way to play the From Gambit. Another method is to hit with a timely ...g5, but here you better know the theory.

Regards,

Lev
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #23 - 10/03/06 at 15:28:04
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Uberdeker, you really made me think, so I did some analyzing during the weekend. 1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 g6 and then keeping the option open where the Knight goes, looks very interesting. Against the Leningrad Bird I found the following interesting continuation:
1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 g6 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 Nd7 5. O-O e5 6. fxe5 Nxe5 7. Nxe5 Bxe5 8.
d4 Bg7 9. Nc3 c6
However against the I-Z Bird, I could not find convincing variations with Nh6. It also does not have a good reputation, but that is maybe not correct. For sure you will have an opinion here.

The following I find interesting as an answer to 1 ... d6. 
1. f4 d6 2. Nf3 e5 3. fxe5 g5 4. h3 dxe5 5. e4 and I think white is fine here. Some remarks?

1. f4 d6 2. d4 e5 looks like a promissing gambit for Black. I am not fond on playing gambits, but this one I believe for Black.

  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #22 - 10/01/06 at 17:48:53
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Sorry Uberdecker, I god a bit confused and thought it was 1 e4 and not f4!  Shocked
  

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Re: Bird's
Reply #21 - 10/01/06 at 14:06:41
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Dear Lev,

 I was aware from previous posts of your singular egocentricity, but this is just too much. The point of fora such as these is to discuss matters with people who share the same interests. But obviously, you are only interested in spouting obscenely self-promoting monologues.
If you had had the decency of reading the posts which preceded yours, you would be aware of the fact that I was not asking your opinion on your own gambit - as we all know how highly you regard the junk that you have developped- but on 1. f4 d6 ; 2. Ktf3 e5.
But I have been generous (naïve?) enough to give you my views on 1. f4 h6. I have pointed out that both 2. d3 and 2. Ktc3 g5 ; 3. d4 (which you have once again chosen to ignore) are very promising for White. 
I have also stated that the only satisfactory answer to 2. e4 is 2. ...d5! Indeed this is actually better for Black. Now you post a whole string of different recommendations, each one more dubious than the next.
After  2. ...g5 ; 3. d4 White is close to winning.  2. ...c6, 2. ...g6 and other moves just make the ...h6 tempo useless at best.
[b]This is the last time I am repeating myself. We can go back to 1. ...h6"!" when we have finished discussing 2. ...d6[/b]
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #20 - 09/30/06 at 23:20:24
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Well, after 1 f4 h6 2 e4 there are several options.

First, if you feel like being adventurous, then try 2...g5!? leading to the Grob. I believe this is similar to Nunn-Basman game given in the book "The Killer Grob" by IM Michael Basman of England.

Secondly, you can try 2...c6 aiming for a Caro-Kann in which the g5-square is covered. The point being, that the pinning maneuver with the White Bishop is no longer possible.

Third, you can aim for a sort of Pirc Defense after 2...g6, 3...Bg7 . There are lines where Black plays ...00 - Kh7, protecting the h6-pawn.

Fourth, you can try Castling Queenside and attacking on the Kingside if opportunity presents itself. In these lines, 1...h6 is a good preparatory move.

You asked some ideas, and I gave you them.

Additionally, chessbase.de has several games with 1 f4 h6 .

Interestingly, the sole 1 f4 h6 2 Nf3 g5 game listed there was played on my birthday, January 13 ! That very day, I was in New York City, playing in a Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Thematic tournament I arranged!
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #19 - 09/30/06 at 18:57:58
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Dear Laughingcow,

 1. f4 h6 ; 2. e4 d5 ; 3. d4 de is certainly no improvement on the BDG! Black's e-pawn can no longer be dissolved with -f3. And now it's passed...
3. ed Qxd5 ; 4. c4 creates yet more holes in White's position, quite apart from the fact that it hangs a pawn to 4. ...Qe4+.
Please cf. reply #10 for more details. The only difference with 1. f4 d6 ; 2. e4 d5 is that black's pawn is on -h7 in those lines. It's no great help to have it on -h6, but it's not really detrimental either - the fact that ...Kth6 is no longer available after 3. e5 is no big deal.
Anyway, Lev must be happy. His hijack is succeding. I was the first to put forth a gambit line in this thread and I feel I have the right to be refuted before him!

                                                               Regards,
                                                                  Hubert
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #18 - 09/30/06 at 18:13:33
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Quote:
P.S. Laughingcow, I quickly modified that post after sending it. 2. ...d5 is good for Black


The first option that comes to mind is to ignore the move and carry on developing making a good version of the Blackma-Diemer (1 d4 d5 2 e4!?).  Also if you just do 2 exd5 Qxd5 3. c4 is that not just good for White?
  

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Re: Bird's
Reply #17 - 09/30/06 at 17:43:40
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Dear Lev,

2. d3 is certainly not "chickening out". It seems to be the best way to accept the gambit. Furthermore, you will never reach "mainline continuations" following 1. ...h6
In your lines A) and C) the move ...h6 is little more than a wasted tempo. In line B) Black's compensation is subject to serious doubt. I will be happy to discuss these issues as well as the line 2. Ktc3!? g5 ; 3. d4 which you have chosen to ignore, once you have given your opinion on 1. ...d6/2. ...e5 and other subjects relevant to this thread. For the moment you have hijacked it long enough.

                                                                 Regards,
                                                                       Hubert

P.S. Laughingcow, I quickly modified that post after sending it. 2. ...d5 is good for Black

                                                       
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #16 - 09/30/06 at 17:25:21
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What if the continuation Uberdecker gave is played...

1 f4 h6 2 e4
  

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Re: Bird's
Reply #15 - 09/30/06 at 17:05:14
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Hmmm... I have some games with 1 f4 h6 2 d3 g5 3 fg hg 4 Bg5 in my collection. In response to your
inquiry I point out the following:

After 1 f4 h6 2 d3 Black can:

A) Play 2...d5, avoiding the 2...g5 line altogether. Perhaps the ...g5 line can be delayed for later in the game.

B) Still play 2...g5, where after 3 fg play divides:

  B1. 3...d5 with a later ...hg5 

  B2. 3...hg  4 Bg5 Bh6

C) Play something other than 2...d5 or 2...g5 . For example, 2...b6, 2...d6, 2...Nc6 or even 2...Nf6

You should know that 1...h6 is both a provocative and a waiting move. Thus, if White plays 2 Nf3, then you can play 2...g5 and after 3 fg5 hg5 Black has open lines for attack. But if White chickens out with 2 d3, then Black can switch to more mainline continuations.

Regards,

Lev 
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #14 - 09/30/06 at 10:42:31
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I think the same as Uberdecker personally
  

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Re: Bird's
Reply #13 - 09/30/06 at 10:39:50
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Dear Lev,

  Instead of promoting the same old unsound lines post after post, why not give your expert opinion on the subject at hand? I very rarely play gambits this early in the opening and welcome the thoughts of those who do so on a regular basis, especially since our respective lines have this in common : they attempt to improve on existing ones.
  In return, I will give my opinion on your variation : 1. f4 h6 ; 2. Ktf3 g5 ; 3. fg hg ; 4. Ktxg5 gives Black some positional compensation in the form of open lines. It is however much more speculative than 1. ...d6/2. ...e5 in that Black lacks concrete targets and has also weakened his own structure to some extent.
  But a better way to accept the pawn is 2. d3 g5 ; 3. fg hg ; 4. Bxg5 when I wonder who has the "lead in development".
  By the way, 2. e4 has previously been advocated on this forum as the right way to deal with your conception. You have then insisted on 2. ...g5, when 3. d4 gf ; 4. Bxf4 leaves with White an overwhelming position, but simply 2. ...d5 (analogous to 1. f4 d6 ; 2. e4 d5) gives Black the better game.
 Likewise, the rash 2. d4 is met by 2. ...d5, but an attractive alternative is 2. Ktc3!? g5 ; 3. d4, again with a very promising game for White.  

                 Regards,
                              Hubert
« Last Edit: 09/30/06 at 16:36:16 by Uberdecker »  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #12 - 09/30/06 at 04:40:08
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You can try defeating the Bird Opening with 1 f4 g5 (Hobbs Gambit) and 1 f4 h6!  2 Nf3 g5!  3 fg5 hxg5, the Hobbs-Zilbermints Gambit.

For reference, the Hobbs Gambit is 1 f4 g5  2 fg5 and now if 2...h6  3 g6 is strong.  Therefore,  in order to prevent that, the Hobbs-Zilbermints Gambit  was invented.

1 f4 h6!  2 Nf3 g5  3 fg5  hxg5  and now the line 3 g6 by White has been prevented. Black has open files, a lead in development, and good attacking chances for the pawn. More to the point, White is out of the "book" and has to think for himself.
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #11 - 09/28/06 at 16:01:09
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Thank you all very much
  

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Re: Bird's
Reply #10 - 09/28/06 at 12:08:05
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Don't know when Appleberry plans to publish his book (perhaps it's already out). I'll have to ask him.
I think it's meant to be a repertoire book and contains analysis by several different people. The cover probably won't carry Martin's name though. He's the publisher of "Carpathian Warrior" and "Tiger's Modern" and always contributes to the analysis. I think maybe the authors on the cover will be Lalic and Okhotnik again.

I first drew attention to the possibility of deferring the From in the poll-thread "From Gambit -Current Opinion". But the discussion was marred by petty bickering and was soon abandoned in favour of a debate on the Fischer Defence to the King's Knight Gambit between MNb and myself in the "1. e4 e5" section (that turned sour as well actually).

Anyway, I didn't take it seriously myself at first, but on closer inspection it appears to be very challenging! After 1. f4 d6  ; 2. Ktf3 e5 we have : 

- 3. fe g5 ; 4. ed (otherwise, after let's say 4. e4 g4 ; 5. Ktg1 de Black is simply better) g4 This is the difference with the standard From, White does not have Kth4. Now 5. Kte5 Bxd6 ; 6. d4 transposes to a drawish sideline, but perhaps Black can improve, for example with 5. ...cd!? Accepting the second pawn is critical of course. 5. dc Qxc7 ; 6. Ktd4 Bd6 is where I ended my "analysis" in the previous thread, and I haven't much to add to that except that Black will be regaining one pawn by force, with excellent compensation for the other one. 

- 3. e4 fe transposes to the Fischer Defence to the King's Knight's Gambit. Now I won't offer an assessment until I've worked out some of the murky details, but suffice to say it's one of the best defences. Please note that Black avoids the Bishop's Gambit (available to White against the standard From) which is universally (at least on this forum!) considered White's best option in the KG accepted.

- Bailing out with 3. d3 ef ; 4. Bxf4 d5 ; 5. Ktc3 Ktf6 ; 6. Qd2 Bd6 (6. ...Bb4!?) is perhaps White's most judicious choice. Normally this structure would be favourable to Black, who has a strategic pull on the e-file and dark-squares, but the tempo loss with ...d6-d5 coupled with the initial headstart balances the chances.

Instead of 2. Ktf3 :
 
- 2. e4 d5 gives White an unpleasant choice to make. I think 3. e5 c5 and 3. ed Ktf6 (3. ...Qxd5!? ; 4. Ktc3 Qa5  with an "f4 Scandinavian" is also good) ; 4. c4 (4.  Bb5+ Bd7 ; 5. Bxd7 Qxd7 ; 6. c4 c6 , 6. ...e6 and 4. ...Ktbd7 all also give more than sufficient compensation) c6 or 4. ...e6 should be discarded in favour of 3. Ktc3 which limits White's problems to the weaknesses created by the advance of his f-pawn.

- 2. d4 leaves Black spoilt for choice. In addition to the thematic 2. ...e5 ; 3. de (3. fe de) Ktc6 ; 3. Ktf3 Bg4, he has the options I mentionned earlier :
2. ...f5 followed by ...Ktf6, ...e6, ...Be7, ...0-0 ...b6, ...Bb7, ...Kte4, ...Ktbd7,
2. ...d5 (or first 2. ...Ktf6 followed by ...d5), ...Ktf6, ...Bf5, ...e6 etc
2. ...Ktf6 followed by ...Bf5, ...Ktbd7, ...c6, ...Qc7 and ...e5  

- 2. other move allows Black to play ...e5 "free of charge"


[quote author=laughingcow link=1159040122/0#8 date=1159382596]So I generally want to play it like a Pirc?[/quote]

Well, after 2. e4 it's possible of course to seek a transposition to Pirc/Czech/Lion/UDKP/Mestrovic etc  Defences with 2. ...Ktf6. Now 3. e5 Ktd5 ; 4. d4 Bf5 is a sideline of the Alekhine where 5. c4 can presently be met by 5. ...Ktb4 instead of ...Ktb6. After 3. Ktc3 on top of the options mentionned above Black has 3. ...d5!? ; 4. e5 d4 ; 5. ef dc ; 6. fg Bxg7 and once again the f-pawn is misplaced.
Also an option is 2. ...g6 with an f4 Modern Defence 

The move 1. ...d6 is subject to various completely different interpretations of course. Another independant line is 2. Ktf3 Bg4.
« Last Edit: 09/28/06 at 18:49:59 by Uberdecker »  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #9 - 09/28/06 at 07:20:48
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Uberdeker, 1 .. Nh6 really looks interesting. How will Martin Appleberry's book be called and when will it be published?

I looked for your deferred From line in old threads, but I could not find it.
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #8 - 09/27/06 at 18:43:16
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So I generally want to play it like a Pirc?
  

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Re: Bird's
Reply #7 - 09/26/06 at 16:29:40
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Martin's line is more than just a trick. It is designed to prevent the standard Q's Fianchetto Bird.
The downside is that Black is committed to ...Kth6 against all the other reversed Dutch systems (Leningrad, Stonewall, Classical)
1. f4 Kth6 ; 2. e4 d5 is more than fine for Black.

[quote author=Black_Widow link=1159040122/0#6 date=1159286960]1. f4 d5 2 Nf3 g6 etc and Nh6 to follow, after this it is easier I think for white to play for an advantage then after Nf6. [/quote]

Why? Black can choose whether to play ...Kth6 or ...Ktf6 according to White's set-up (cf. my previous posts).

[quote]I also consider 1 .. Nf6 as more accurate. [/quote]

Between 1. ...d5 or 1. ...Ktf6 I don't think that one of these moves is more accurate than the other. The first maintains the option of ...Kth6, while the latter keeps ...d6 on the cards.

[quote] 1 .. d6 contains some additonal venom, but how does it look like against the stonewall?[/quote]

Well, White never gets the time for a Stonewall! If you mean 2. d4, then both 2. ...f5 and ...d5 (now or preceded by 2. ...Ktf6 and ...Bf5) are good for Black.
« Last Edit: 09/26/06 at 17:30:28 by Uberdecker »  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #6 - 09/26/06 at 16:09:20
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159040122/0#3 date=1159203450] 
After 1. ...d5, Black might prefer to develop his K's Knight to -h6. Martin Appleberry has recommended 1. ...Kth6 in a recently published (or soon to be published) book. The reason he prefers this to 1. ...d5 is the line 1. ...Kth6 ; 2. b3 e5.[/quote]

Martin Appleberry's suggestion works, as a trick:
1. f4 Nh6 2. b3? e5 3. fxe5 d6 4. exd6 Bxd6 5. Nf3 Ng4, and without checking variations, I think black has already a decisive advantage, although Fritz does not see it already.

But what about normal development? 1. f4 Nh6 2. e4 looks fine to me, for sure after 2 ... e5. In any case I would be pleased to see 1 Nh6 at the board.

1. f4 d5 2 Nf3 g6 etc and Nh6 to follow, after this it is easier I think for white to play for an advantage then after Nf6.


[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159040122/0#3 date=1159203450]
After 1. ...Ktf6, Black controls -e4, but he can still do without ...d5. For instance he can go for a ...d6/...Ktbd7/...e5 plan. This is particularly effective against a Stonewall set-up. 
But until someone refutes my deferred From (cf. the thread "From Gambit : current opinion), my preference goes to the immediate 1. ...d6.[/quote]

I also consider 1 .. Nf6 as more accurate. 1 .. d6 contains some additonal venom, but how does it look like against the stonewall?

  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #5 - 09/25/06 at 19:06:19
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If flexibility is your main concern and you wish to open with 1. ...Ktf6, I suggest 2. ...g6 followed by ...d6 against the Stonewall and ...d5 against the rest. No more options of ...Kth6 variations though (especially effective against reversed Leningrad setups) so 1. ...d5 doesn't ultimately strike me as being less flexible. 
Check out my Deferred From for something more aggressive.
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #4 - 09/25/06 at 18:50:01
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Also, considering I might very likely be facing this from a Black point of view, what could I do then because it is never easy facing your own opening.  I am fairly convinced that 1...Nf6 is the best option because it is so flexible, but what sort of setup would I adopt then?
  

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Re: Bird's
Reply #3 - 09/25/06 at 16:57:30
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[quote author=Black_Widow link=1159040122/0#1 date=1159201529]1 f4 d5 and 1 f4 Nf6 are almost interchangeble. [/quote]
 
Not quite. After 1. ...d5, Black might prefer to develop his K's Knight to -h6. Martin Appleberry has recommended 1. ...Kth6 in a recently published (or soon to be published) book. The reason he prefers this to 1. ...d5 is the line 1. ...Kth6 ; 2. b3 e5.
After 1. ...Ktf6, Black controls -e4, but he can still do without ...d5. For instance he can go for a ...d6/...Ktbd7/...e5 plan. This is particularly effective against a Stonewall set-up. 
But until someone refutes my deferred From (cf. the thread "From Gambit : current opinion), my preference goes to the immediate 1. ...d6.
  
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Re: Bird's
Reply #2 - 09/25/06 at 16:33:03
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Thanx very much
  

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Re: Bird's
Reply #1 - 09/25/06 at 16:25:29
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1 f4 d5 and 1 f4 Nf6 are almost interchangeble. My views:

- Bird Leningrad way of playing:
  1. f4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 d5 5. O-O O-O 6. d3 c5 
  * 7. Nc3 is not nice to play after 7 .. d4 8. Ne4 Qb6, so I can not advice this.
  * 7 c3 looks very solid to play with white, but it is not easy to gain an advantage, if black knows what to play.
  * 7 Qe1 is trickier for white and black, but it is not easy to use the extra tempo for white.
  * However with the bird Leningrad you can choose a complex battleground, where you can specialize in.

- White I-Z setup: you can choose a complex battleground, where you can specialize in, however probably black still can equalize.

- Early Queen side fianchetto:
  * This does not play that easy for white. Black is very solid.

- Stonewall setup: 
  * Black is very solid.
  
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Bird's
09/23/06 at 19:35:22
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Can someone give me a good line to play after 1. f4 Nf6?
  

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